Time travel Orcs are a Tumor on the setting

[Wildberry]

K. Pretend you're an Outlands Mag'har, then.

Yeah, see the problem is me "pretending" to be MU Mag'har" doesn't change the fact that WoD Orcs will be the ones showcased in the story. Orcs are in dire need of development at the moment. Introducing MU Mag'har would be a good way to do this. Unfortunately, we're getting WoD Orcs, who will be led by either AU Grom, or AU Durotan, neither of which can meaningfully interact with the story on MU Azeroth without cheapening their real counterparts. Both characters will also be tarnished by the community as being "fake." You know what character doesn't have this issue? Jorin Deadeye.

Wow, it's almost like that was completely obvious and I shouldn't have had to spell it out for you.

[Zulkhan]

I'm really not sure where they'd want to go with AU Draenor. I know they're burning plotlines at absurd rates ("What's under Tirisfal?" Neptulon, Koltira, Undermine, Azshara [lol]), but do they really think they can pitch AU Ogre supercontinent as an expansion or something?

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure myself. In blunt honesty, I have yet to understand if that "supercontinent" is even an acknowledged thing or is merely Blizzard trolling us. And, so far, the only vague hint AU Draenor gave regarding future storylines was AU Cho'gall speaking about an unknown "master", someone that, given Cho'gall's Twilight Hammer-ish stance in WoD, can only be related to the whole Old Goid/Void Lord theme.

That, or Blizzard decides to go balls on the wall with this AU idea and send us to AU Azeroth or something (quite unlikely atm but "never say never" is a good saying to keep in mind with Blizzard).

[therealbowser]

Yeah, see the problem is me "pretending" to be MU Mag'har" doesn't change the fact that WoD Orcs will be the ones showcased in the story. Orcs are in dire need of development at the moment. Introducing MU Mag'har would be a good way to do this. Unfortunately, we're getting WoD Orcs, who will be led by either AU Grom, or AU Durotan, neither of which can meaningfully interact with the story on MU Azeroth without cheapening their real counterparts. Both characters will also be tarnished by the community as being "fake." You know what character doesn't have this issue? Jorin Deadeye.

Wow, it's almost like that was completely obvious and I shouldn't have had to spell it out for you.

You're right, the response actually was to bait you into posting a proper reply instead of "WoD orcs suck". I'm actually surprised it worked as well as it did. Now I have something to respond to! To clarify, pretending actually does work to a certain degree, but obviously, as aforementioned, I don't feel that's a valid solution. I just feel that it's not a valid problem.

Orcs being in dire need of development I feel as being false. Orcs have been the primary focus for most of MoP and all of WoD (and that's including the non-AU orcs in that case). We have had a grand total of one expansion in nearly the past decade that didn't revolve around orcs. And it was kind of refreshing. (Before you correct me, I am exaggerating... though slightly.) That's not to say I am against their development, but they are not in need of it, let alone 'dire' need of it.

Now on the other hand, your arguments about the WoD orcs cheapening the MU orcs is actually a valid argument. And in fact, I would find it disgusting if the primary villain of WoD (pre 6.2, but who cares?) was the leader of them, but I am expecting it. Them being 'fake' doesn't matter as much to me, but they probably should have stayed in their own universe and had a new orc leading them. You know, like Yrel led the Draenei. She was a likable, newly developed character that worked well. Orcs didn't get that, but well... water under the bridge, I suppose.

Personally I don't find the MU mag'har to be all that interesting. There are not that many of them and they did not do a lot that was all that special. The best thing we got out of their involvement was Garrosh and the ones that directly served him, and well... you saw how that went. WoD orcs have more with them, thematically. Specifically I am referring to their technology and culture, which is strikingly different from MU orcs of any type. They were on the apex of orc society, greater than orcs in the MU realistically ever experienced, as opposed to the Mag'har which in many ways are the ragged outcasts of a doomed, shattered world.

Don't get me wrong, now. I definitely see the appeal of MU Mag'har and would have accepted them if they had been added instead. But the WoD orcs are a pleasant surprise. I didn't think we would be able to take anything good out of that miserable expansion, but if we get WoD orcs as an allied race that may yet change.

Naturally my opinion on these AU orcs will change depending on how they are brought into BfA, but I'm hopeful enough to not feel like it's some kind of massive betrayal of trust or misuse of content. I guess we'll find out.

That said, when they do add WoD orcs (you might as well accept that Blizzard has added them and that they are coming), I do recommend treating them like they are the orcs you wanted, the MU Mag'har, instead of choosing not to use them just because of their vague background and a couple bad /sillies. It may not be exactly what you wanted, but they are still mag'har, still brown orcs.

[Clone]

K. Pretend you're an Outlands Mag'har, then.

Why not let's get MU orcs and you pretend to be AU orc?

[Jshadowhunter]

Why not let's get MU orcs and you pretend to be AU orc?

Because practically almost all the Maghar in MU were taken to Orgrimmar when Garrosh got in power and they got slaughtered. SO what power do they still hold?

Draenor orcs, on the other hand, are still there at the seat of their power.

The only problem is, how are they gonna address the whole Hellfire Citadel ending.

[Biotec]

Personally I don't find the MU mag'har to be all that interesting. There are not that many of them and they did not do a lot that was all that special. The best thing we got out of their involvement was Garrosh and the ones that directly served him, and well... you saw how that went. WoD orcs have more with them, thematically. Specifically I am referring to their technology and culture, which is strikingly different from MU orcs of any type. They were on the apex of orc society, greater than orcs in the MU realistically ever experienced, as opposed to the Mag'har which in many ways are the ragged outcasts of a doomed, shattered world.

I agree with pretty much all of your points, but this is one where we don't see eye to eye. For the most part I think their culture, with exception of the Blackrock, are pretty similar. The Bleeding Hollow were jungle faring savages, the Frostwolves were noble wolf lovers, Shattered Hand were crazy, Warsong very war driven, ect ect. The only real difference was the Blackrock being engineering focused and the general Iron Horde soldiers being clad in iron instead of leather. While I do enjoy the Iron Horde general aesthetic, I enjoy the more clan focused aspect, which is something the MU Maghar could have picked up on easily. The MU Maghar already had many clans under its belt, they just needed to do a better job of showing them, and going forward, I think it would have been interesting to have them focus on their clan identities while the main Orcs have become fairly homogeneous under Thrall. I also think there's an interesting story for them dealing with the fallout of Garrosh and his insanity. There were a lot who didn't like him before, maybe there were a lot of them who didn't like him after as well? Maybe they could think of Garrosh as someone who abandoned his people in Outland to go relive a twisted version of his father's memory and left them to deal with the constant problems of Outland by themself.

The biggest thing I wanted out of the MU Maghar however, is the development of new characters. Jorin Deadeye especially could have been an interesting character, he was clearly a brutal very orcish person, but also had a good head on his shoulders and didn't seem like the "run in and die" type of Orc. Combined with all we know about his father, it could have lead to another interesting character who is much more grey than people like Baine or Saurfang, but far less black than Sylvanas. It would also prevent the use of people like Grom, or Durotan, or pretty much anyone from the AU, who as we agree on would cheapen the MU counterpart. It just reeks more of pointless fanservice to bring back someone like Grom, who we fought for the entire expansion, and have him just be a carbon copy of the real Grom who actually had a story arc that ended.

Finally, there's just a problem with using AU Orcs in general which is, why do they even want to come over? Their planet is good, they are at peace, they have no stake in Azeroth at all, so why do they suddenly want to come and join the Horde? Are the Iron Horde exiles with Grom, and if so why would we risk pissing off the Orcs over there that we actually like? If they are all of the clans together, why would they decide to leave their perfectly good planet to come fight a war on ours? What could they possibly get out of being our allied race on Azeroth? I feel like the AU Horde has a lot more twisting to do to justify their existence rather than the MU Maghar.

[Clone]

Because practically almost all the Maghar in MU were taken to Orgrimmar when Garrosh got in power and they got slaughtered. SO what power do they still hold?

Draenor orcs, on the other hand, are still there at the seat of their power.

The only problem is, how are they gonna address the whole Hellfire Citadel ending.

Provide proof then. I run SoO all the time for xmog and the majority of orcs in it are green

[Zulkhan]

Provide proof then. I run SoO all the time for xmog and the majority of orcs in it are green

There is a noticeable number of Mag'har Kor'kron after you kill Malkorok storming the room, then a few others before reaching Blackfuse and nothing but Mag'har Orcs during Garrosh's final fight (the adds coming from the throne's sides).

That being said, it's indeed without proof the claim that Garrosh took "almost all Mag'har" and even if that's the case, we should also need proof that all of them followed him to the bitter end (so far, I remember two Mag'har Orcs present in the Vol'jin's Pride outpost, the Horde outpost in Talador).

[Dagoth Ur]

There is a noticeable number of Mag'har Kor'kron after you kill Malkorok storming the room, then a few others before reaching Blackfuse and nothing but Mag'har Orcs during Garrosh's final fight (the adds coming from the throne's sides).

That being said, it's indeed without proof the claim that Garrosh took "almost all Mag'har" and even if that's the case, we should also need proof that all of them followed him to the bitter end (so far, I remember two Mag'har Orcs present in the Vol'jin's Pride outpost, the Horde outpost in Talador).

There are also Mag'har drummers on the Horde gunship when flying to Seething shore battleground that just came out couple of days ago.

EDIT: Nevermind. Apparently they wear alternate Warsong armor, so they could be AU ones that join us in BfA I guess.

[Biotec]

There are also Mag'har drummers on the Horde gunship when flying to Seething shore battleground that just came out couple of days ago.

EDIT: Nevermind. Apparently they were alternate Warsong armor, so they could be AU ones that join us in BfA I guess.

I honestly thought those guys might be Mok'nathal. They are like twice the size of every other Orc on that ship.

[zknm7]

The orcs had to murder their old characters and they've been reduced to hostile omnicidal idiots who could be talked into some grand orc crusade by GARROSH of all people.

"YOU made me WHORECHIEF!!! You left me to pick up your PIECES!!! Now LICK my SWEATY, BROWN BUNGHOLE!!!"

[Clone]

There is a noticeable number of Mag'har Kor'kron after you kill Malkorok storming the room, then a few others before reaching Blackfuse and nothing but Mag'har Orcs during Garrosh's final fight (the adds coming from the throne's sides).

That being said, it's indeed without proof the claim that Garrosh took "almost all Mag'har" and even if that's the case, we should also need proof that all of them followed him to the bitter end (so far, I remember two Mag'har Orcs present in the Vol'jin's Pride outpost, the Horde outpost in Talador).

Yeah, the point is that it's never stated in lore nor reflected in game. You don't see solely Mag'har orcs till after Paragons. Before that it's either all green or a mix of both.

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There are also Mag'har drummers on the Horde gunship when flying to Seething shore battleground that just came out couple of days ago.

EDIT: Nevermind. Apparently they wear alternate Warsong armor, so they could be AU ones that join us in BfA I guess.

I wouldn't go by the armor. Broxigar wore the same armor in the Illidan memory quest.

[therealbowser]

Why not let's get MU orcs and you pretend to be AU orc?

Blizzard has already put a ton of effort into all of the voice overs to push them into being AU. If you think they are going to switch their backstory at this point, you are simply setting yourself up for disappointment. Honestly, I really don't care that much what universe they come from, even if I do prefer the Iron Horde tech in general. It just doesn't matter that much to me.

I thought it was kind of blatant, but the response was kind of tongue in cheek since they were not being very elaborate in that particular response. But hey, it's cool. I'd rather pretend like this conversation didn't occur, personally. lol.

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I agree with pretty much all of your points, but this is one where we don't see eye to eye. For the most part I think their culture, with exception of the Blackrock, are pretty similar. The Bleeding Hollow were jungle faring savages, the Frostwolves were noble wolf lovers, Shattered Hand were crazy, Warsong very war driven, ect ect. The only real difference was the Blackrock being engineering focused and the general Iron Horde soldiers being clad in iron instead of leather. While I do enjoy the Iron Horde general aesthetic, I enjoy the more clan focused aspect, which is something the MU Maghar could have picked up on easily. The MU Maghar already had many clans under its belt, they just needed to do a better job of showing them, and going forward, I think it would have been interesting to have them focus on their clan identities while the main Orcs have become fairly homogeneous under Thrall. I also think there's an interesting story for them dealing with the fallout of Garrosh and his insanity. There were a lot who didn't like him before, maybe there were a lot of them who didn't like him after as well? Maybe they could think of Garrosh as someone who abandoned his people in Outland to go relive a twisted version of his father's memory and left them to deal with the constant problems of Outland by themself.

The biggest thing I wanted out of the MU Maghar however, is the development of new characters. Jorin Deadeye especially could have been an interesting character, he was clearly a brutal very orcish person, but also had a good head on his shoulders and didn't seem like the "run in and die" type of Orc. Combined with all we know about his father, it could have lead to another interesting character who is much more grey than people like Baine or Saurfang, but far less black than Sylvanas. It would also prevent the use of people like Grom, or Durotan, or pretty much anyone from the AU, who as we agree on would cheapen the MU counterpart. It just reeks more of pointless fanservice to bring back someone like Grom, who we fought for the entire expansion, and have him just be a carbon copy of the real Grom who actually had a story arc that ended.

Finally, there's just a problem with using AU Orcs in general which is, why do they even want to come over? Their planet is good, they are at peace, they have no stake in Azeroth at all, so why do they suddenly want to come and join the Horde? Are the Iron Horde exiles with Grom, and if so why would we risk pissing off the Orcs over there that we actually like? If they are all of the clans together, why would they decide to leave their perfectly good planet to come fight a war on ours? What could they possibly get out of being our allied race on Azeroth? I feel like the AU Horde has a lot more twisting to do to justify their existence rather than the MU Maghar.

I can see a lot of what you are saying. In general, I agree with how you feel about Jorin and would like to see him play a bigger role just for the sake of it. Regardless of where the allied race comes from, I'd like to see the Mag'har in Outlands play a role here, too.

As far as the clan lore goes, I feel like the AU universe went more into depth into the clan identities than the MU orcs ever did, let alone the Mag'har. I always kind of liked that, even if they did unfortunately seem to make nearly every clan generically evil (with the exception of the Burning Blade).

I would very much dislike to see Grom or Durotan come to MU Azeroth for the same reasons you dislike them. Again, this is why I'd like to see a new draenor orc leader but... I doubt we'll get that opportunity, unfortunately. Grom especially I find offensive since the guy was a blatant war criminal who committed terrible atrocities to both sides. Why would anyone be okay with this? If they make him the leader and do not make him held accountable for his actions (or at least acknowledge them) I will be quite pissed off.

As for your last point, I am sure Blizzard can find a reason for them to come, but you bring up some good points. I'm curious honestly how Blizzard plans on playing that out. You're definitely right that there is a lot more 'twisting' to make them a viable allied race than the MU Mag'har. That's kind of what makes them interesting to me in a sense, though.

One way or another, regardless of what we agree or disagree on, I do want to be clear that I'd love to see some of the MU Mag'har leaders show up regardless. I liked Jorin too, and I'd love for him to play a bigger role. Hell, it might even be the MU Mag'har that are the reason why we reach out to the AU ones. I'd be curious to see that.

[Paraka]

Why not let's get MU orcs and you pretend to be AU orc?

Why not roll an ordinary Orc and pretend your both?

[Dagoth Ur]

I wouldn't go by the armor. Broxigar wore the same armor in the Illidan memory quest.

Yeah, you're right. Honestly, to me it makes more sense that they're Outland Mag'har, since I assume battleground canonically takes place before we recruit Draenor orcs but I guess I can't claim that with certainty since it's not confirmed anywhere.

[Clone]

Blizzard has already put a ton of effort into all of the voice overs to push them into being AU. If you think they are going to switch their backstory at this point, you are simply setting yourself up for disappointment. Honestly, I really don't care that much what universe they come from, even if I do prefer the Iron Horde tech in general. It just doesn't matter that much to me.

I thought it was kind of blatant, but the response was kind of tongue in cheek since they were not being very elaborate in that particular response. But hey, it's cool. I'd rather pretend like this conversation didn't occur, personally. lol.

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I can see a lot of what you are saying. In general, I agree with how you feel about Jorin and would like to see him play a bigger role just for the sake of it. Regardless of where the allied race comes from, I'd like to see the Mag'har in Outlands play a role here, too.

As far as the clan lore goes, I feel like the AU universe went more into depth into the clan identities than the MU orcs ever did, let alone the Mag'har. I always kind of liked that, even if they did unfortunately seem to make nearly every clan generically evil (with the exception of the Burning Blade).

I would very much dislike to see Grom or Durotan come to MU Azeroth for the same reasons you dislike them. Again, this is why I'd like to see a new draenor orc leader but... I doubt we'll get that opportunity, unfortunately. Grom especially I find offensive since the guy was a blatant war criminal who committed terrible atrocities to both sides. Why would anyone be okay with this? If they make him the leader and do not make him held accountable for his actions (or at least acknowledge them) I will be quite pissed off.

As for your last point, I am sure Blizzard can find a reason for them to come,

Unless I missed something, the joke lines aren't clear indications.

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Yeah, you're right. Honestly, to me it makes more sense that they're Outland Mag'har, since I assume battleground canonically takes place before we recruit Draenor orcs but I guess I can't claim that with certainty since it's not confirmed anywhere.

Knowing Blizzard I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[therealbowser]

Editting this out so it doesn't continue to get quoted.

[Nekobe140]

Warlords of Draenor is an expansion I've taught myself to forget. It's an ugly blemish on my favorite games timeline.

That being said, I'm going to go explore Draenor.

[Clone]

Unfortunately it looks like you'd rather trade insults than discuss this, so I'll pass on bickering further. Shame, because this is actually an interesting topic for me.

What about that is insulting?

[TyrannicalPuppy]

Mac'Aree and Krokuun might be able to be repaired yeah.


Argus was bathed in fel energy for 25k years. That's longer than Outland has existed (longer than the night elf empire has existed, longer than humans irl have existed, etc) and it STILL has healthy areas.

Netherstorm was only that bad because of the Mana-forges, and we stopped those, it used to be "fields of Farahlon" as recent as Kael's elves setting up there before they turned on the forges. Learn your lore.

Uhhhh no. Human CIVILISATION hasn't existed for 25k years yet, but the species homo sapiens, AKA us, has existed for over 200k.