Draenor Orcs scenario is a big opportunity for closure to"alternate Dranor" nonsence.

[In Ogres We Trust]

This was a stupid thread.

[Terongor]

I don't think Grom should be part of Horde after all he did in WoD.

And there must be a reason why Draenor join us now. They have pretty good world our there, coming here just to fight Alliance would be pretty stupid unless something is really wrong with AU Draenor.

Also, if AU Orcs won't invade AU Azeroth, something bad MUST happen (remember that Infinite Dragonflight tried to prevent this event in BC?) - for example: no Nerzhul in Azeroth -> no Lich King -> no expedition to Northend -> Yogg-Saron breaks free and corrupt Azeroth. And it's just one thing of many.

No thrall and Deathwing fate was revealed that once, long ago, Deathwing had been warned that an orc named Thrall would rise to challenge and possibly defeat him. From the book twilight of the aspects. DW was their end game.

[Evangeliste]

Yeah I can see that. And perhaps I really am a fanboy, but it's not like I disagree with you. The Saurfang talk was (or WILL BE) way over the top, but she was ALWAYS different than the other heroes and also different than all of the previous warchiefs. Since the beginning (well, more precisely, since she became a banshee) she was mostly driven by pain and revenge. Are her reasons noble or honorable? No, they are not. Is she a good warchief? Well, what does it mean? Can she lead? I think she can. Is she compassionate? Absolutely not, she is a stone cold bitch. Does she have to be kind to her own people (the Horde, not just Forsaken)? Well, Thrall would be kind. But there really aren't any rules or regulations on what traits a warchief should have.

I am not apologizing her motives or rationalizing her behavior. I think there is a very little humanity left in her, if any. But that doesn't mean she needs to fall as Garrosh did and that her story should climax the way Garrosh's did. I don't think we need to confront her, fight her or kill her. It would feel dull and, well, repetitive. Maybe almost insulting because (here comes the fanboy) I find her much more important and interesting than most of the other main characters. And I believe I am not alone.

Summa summarum I don't really think it's a bad thing that she does things differently, that she is ruthless and lacks any compassion. I think her character is so rational and cold hearted that she just feels mean and egoistic most of the time. But she just don't give a fuck. It's a point of view.

Well really we've only seen two Warchiefs in action... thanks to Blizzard's brilliant writing. I guess we can take Vol'jin and his Darkspear take on Echo Isles which is someone whose tactical and hardy but still isn't enough. The problem with Sylvanas I find is, you can always question people's loyalty to her. At least with Thrall and even Garrosh it was because they actually believed in a common cause and you saw that common cause fruit into this end game that groups added to, you can't ever be certain with Sylvanas as she's a slippery, untrustworthy individual or better yet, her motives are all over the place over the lifespan of the online game.

And this is where it falls for me, her demeanour wavers so much too even in such a short time as a Warchief and doesn't join properly prior to her ascension either. There has been numerous other examples in lore where fear as a controlling factor doesn't really work in the long run for managing a large group of individuals especially all with ideologies that differ. Sylvanas will have seen first hand, a "good" and "bad" Warchief thanks to being in the Horde with at least 3. And, I think you could even say Sylvanas has seen that from the sidelines as she's been part of the Horde, which is why her writing is somewhat confusing with her basically encouraging Gallywix yet becomes a complete asswipe to Saurfang.

I mean even Varian who knew about his father be murdered by an Orc, had a shred of decency to let a grieving father actually grieve, Sylvanas didn't need to go down to dick level punching - Varian was about honour... Sylvanas is about what exactly? That's what's irksome, they have constantly changed her goal in every expansion or two. That's what fucks me off the most. Her character is starting to try me because they're not very consistent with her when cinematics inspire the Horde as a whole then suddenly she's a complete dick.

What connects those dots is selfishness really but even then, you can't be certain because you're like, who is she loyal to exactly? With Thrall it was all his people, Vol'jin was the same and Garrosh was just about elevating Orcs and outliving his father's shadow... Sylvanas could be a number of shit because that lack of consistency. The Horde is worthwhile to invest when it furthers her personal gain maybe? Did she go to Gilneas willingly when Garrosh sent her? Or did she go because she could claim more Humans for Forsaken only to find that they were werewolves and immune but still plague those that were clean? She still wanted to plague them (in the Cathedral) when she saw they were doggies basically.

And so on... It circles itself, round and round with no clarity to every step, other media like novels don't help iron it out either and instead add to this roundabout. And on the topic of novels, it's a more personal look to her in Edge of Night but... after everything she endured she goes off and commits suicide. I mean awesome but what?! Her desire was to end Arthas but it doesn't really make sense if you look at the entire picture. And, then she comes back literally mindfucked and determined not to go there. But then Cataclysm/Mists/WoD/Legion come along where she technically dies again and loses more Val'kyr, goes to Gilneas, then eventually ends up going to Helya for something unexplained - a nice journey but it's like important features are missing... Like eyebrows missing on a portrait. Save her soul most likely by getting more Val'kyr because Eyir can make Val'kyr. But then she's rallying Horde but spitting verbal shit to Saurfang who literally will save Forsaken taking hits... Confusion at best. All the time. I mean yes characters are three dimensional, they are awesome when they are but... not when the moral compass never stops spinning.

And she's only important character because they made it so. Before Warchief, she was more of a plot device. I guess you could say about anyone but, out of all the females, she being the edgy edge lord was more appealing, then whining bitch Tyrande, Jaina Streisand and so on... I know they people cheered at her being in the BfA cinematic at Blizzcon because yes she was there (yay fanservice), but personally, I think her being side by side with Varian kicking arse felt right, because she was being part of the team and not seemingly plotting or different to the common caused flock, seeing her for me was just like YES! Oh MY GOD! She's KICKING ARSE WITH like, like EVERYONE! Holy shiiiiit!

We don't really see an inner conflict between leadership either which is largely strange. Thrall was at least balanced to not be questioned or would listen, Vol'jin was so short but he inspired people clearly - you saw them wanting to avenge Vol'jin and gave him a funeral so he was liked... And ee only saw Garrosh ascend to dickweed and ostracise others but still no-one before openly challenged or backed up their threats to him? Which also makes me feel... Sylvanas going to Gilneas wasn't a whole yes master, she could easily go to town on Garrosh...), so having someone like Grommash would be nice to have that, both are pushy characters. I guess time will tell in however they go about it and whether they will actually have some form on consistency with her rather then having her flip flop so damn much!

And it's why I kinda hope someone like Grommash will be there, firstly to be a constant drive and writer reminder to carve out some consistency and also there's a serious lack of at least prominent figures overall in Horde. It's like Baine and Lor'themar are suffering Velen's affliction of no personal development prior to Legion. Add a nice dynamic to the story, and it doesn't have to escalate to say Saurfang defecting so to speak, for once it would be nice if the leader bent a knee slightly and instead of being such a cold fuck like she is, to at least be more open because honestly with the whole Broken Shore scene when she rallied the others or in the cinematic whrere she bust that siege tower and rallied them again... I honestly wanted to believe that she really IS FOR THE HORDE.

[Big Mama]

Well really we've only seen two Warchiefs in action... thanks to Blizzard's brilliant writing. I guess we can take Vol'jin and his Darkspear take on Echo Isles which is someone whose tactical and hardy but still isn't enough. The problem with Sylvanas I find is, you can always question people's loyalty to her. At least with Thrall and even Garrosh it was because they actually believed in a common cause and you saw that common cause fruit into this end game that groups added to, you can't ever be certain with Sylvanas as she's a slippery, untrustworthy individual or better yet, her motives are all over the place over the lifespan of the online game.

And this is where it falls for me, her demeanour wavers so much too even in such a short time as a Warchief and doesn't join properly prior to her ascension either. There has been numerous other examples in lore where fear as a controlling factor doesn't really work in the long run for managing a large group of individuals especially all with ideologies that differ. Sylvanas will have seen first hand, a "good" and "bad" Warchief thanks to being in the Horde with at least 3. And, I think you could even say Sylvanas has seen that from the sidelines as she's been part of the Horde, which is why her writing is somewhat confusing with her basically encouraging Gallywix yet becomes a complete asswipe to Saurfang.

I mean even Varian who knew about his father be murdered by an Orc, had a shred of decency to let a grieving father actually grieve, Sylvanas didn't need to go down to dick level punching - Varian was about honour... Sylvanas is about what exactly? That's what's irksome, they have constantly changed her goal in every expansion or two. That's what fucks me off the most. Her character is starting to try me because they're not very consistent with her when cinematics inspire the Horde as a whole then suddenly she's a complete dick.

What connects those dots is selfishness really but even then, you can't be certain because you're like, who is she loyal to exactly? With Thrall it was all his people, Vol'jin was the same and Garrosh was just about elevating Orcs and outliving his father's shadow... Sylvanas could be a number of shit because that lack of consistency. The Horde is worthwhile to invest when it furthers her personal gain maybe? Did she go to Gilneas willingly when Garrosh sent her? Or did she go because she could claim more Humans for Forsaken only to find that they were werewolves and immune but still plague those that were clean? She still wanted to plague them (in the Cathedral) when she saw they were doggies basically.

And so on... It circles itself, round and round with no clarity to every step, other media like novels don't help iron it out either and instead add to this roundabout. And on the topic of novels, it's a more personal look to her in Edge of Night but... after everything she endured she goes off and commits suicide. I mean awesome but what?! Her desire was to end Arthas but it doesn't really make sense if you look at the entire picture. And, then she comes back literally mindfucked and determined not to go there. But then Cataclysm/Mists/WoD/Legion come along where she technically dies again and loses more Val'kyr, goes to Gilneas, then eventually ends up going to Helya for something unexplained - a nice journey but it's like important features are missing... Like eyebrows missing on a portrait. Save her soul most likely by getting more Val'kyr because Eyir can make Val'kyr. But then she's rallying Horde but spitting verbal shit to Saurfang who literally will save Forsaken taking hits... Confusion at best. All the time. I mean yes characters are three dimensional, they are awesome when they are but... not when the moral compass never stops spinning.

And she's only important character because they made it so. Before Warchief, she was more of a plot device. I guess you could say about anyone but, out of all the females, she being the edgy edge lord was more appealing, then whining bitch Tyrande, Jaina Streisand and so on... I know they people cheered at her being in the BfA cinematic at Blizzcon because yes she was there (yay fanservice), but personally, I think her being side by side with Varian kicking arse felt right, because she was being part of the team and not seemingly plotting or different to the common caused flock, seeing her for me was just like YES! Oh MY GOD! She's KICKING ARSE WITH like, like EVERYONE! Holy shiiiiit!

We don't really see an inner conflict between leadership either which is largely strange. Thrall was at least balanced to not be questioned or would listen, Vol'jin was so short but he inspired people clearly - you saw them wanting to avenge Vol'jin and gave him a funeral so he was liked... And ee only saw Garrosh ascend to dickweed and ostracise others but still no-one before openly challenged or backed up their threats to him? Which also makes me feel... Sylvanas going to Gilneas wasn't a whole yes master, she could easily go to town on Garrosh...), so having someone like Grommash would be nice to have that, both are pushy characters. I guess time will tell in however they go about it and whether they will actually have some form on consistency with her rather then having her flip flop so damn much!

And it's why I kinda hope someone like Grommash will be there, firstly to be a constant drive and writer reminder to carve out some consistency and also there's a serious lack of at least prominent figures overall in Horde. It's like Baine and Lor'themar are suffering Velen's affliction of no personal development prior to Legion. Add a nice dynamic to the story, and it doesn't have to escalate to say Saurfang defecting so to speak, for once it would be nice if the leader bent a knee slightly and instead of being such a cold fuck like she is, to at least be more open because honestly with the whole Broken Shore scene when she rallied the others or in the cinematic whrere she bust that siege tower and rallied them again... I honestly wanted to believe that she really IS FOR THE HORDE.

Wow, first of all - thank you for such long answer. I mean it.

I can only agree with you that after the events of Wrath of the Lich King her motives kept slightly switching or changing and that they haven't been 100% consistent. I feel that Blizz makes a lot of their decisions basically just for the sake of the effect and some epic moment happening while not always knowing where would the story lead next. I mean, the Stormheim storyline just kind of dissipated in the end. And that's just one of many. I get that the story has to be kind of fluid and some ideas have to be cut or changed in the creating process as the expansion goes... But honestly. The story might have been better. I hope it will get better in BfA and after.

[Destinas]

Considering the fact that the Draenor Orcs are becoming playable, it seems like it will be even more connected and brought up in the future. Especially with the idea of Allied Races in general, where fans of WoW have asked for playable Arakkoa for years - even more with the High Arakkoa introduced in WoD.

It's an interesting idea, but I doubt they'll evacuate Draenor and shut it down completely. It takes away more than it adds, in my opinion, when we can explore other parts of that world, like Farah'lon and the southwestern continent.

[Stooned]

Why would they really close it when they have access to all the people that are dead in MU? The only reason we got Legion was because AU Gul'dan was tossed into ours.
I wouldn't really want them to apologise per say for AU or close it considering they could do a lot to it. Granted some of your ideas are worth seeing like a mad-bitch-mode Azeroth which would be a nice kickstarter to lose the whole faction warring but I don't think that's going to happen now with the addition of Allied Races now. Like it's not going to happen at all. The next step will be more neutral races now.

You have to remember there's only so many stories they can cover in an expansion. They add little tid bits but that's all they can do when really the assets and time to manage a storyline is actually limited considering the universe and game is bigger and bigger. And also AU wouldn't add much to Legion storytelling though... funnily we still are in Legion expansion and they are datamining AU so technically it is in Legion?
Either way, the events are clearly different there. They might not have the same relationships with the dragons to allow time travel. You have to remember Aman'thul said the MU is "the one true timeline", so all other variations are up for grabs. Its a nice source to drop in and take from to add to the MU and a great source of additional content IF, IF, IF done right.

Take this, the Draenor Orcs are coming. People theorise that Saurfang could take it. Fuck that.
Let Grommash Hellscream come through.
Could you imagine the turbulent and awesome shit that could happen? Imagine how Thrall would feel standing there as he killed the MU Garrosh. Imagine all the bullshit Grommash could learn or provide. Sylvanas needs someone to grab her by the titties and keep them calm, keep her in check because at the moment, no one is in a position or backbone to make sure she is for the Horde and not using them for herself.

And that's only one person that could come through and add a dimension to this game.

Calling it...AU Grom is brought into the MU....he will be next Warchief.

[Evangeliste]

Wow, first of all - thank you for such long answer. I mean it.

I can only agree with you that after the events of Wrath of the Lich King her motives kept slightly switching or changing and that they haven't been 100% consistent. I feel that Blizz makes a lot of their decisions basically just for the sake of the effect and some epic moment happening while not always knowing where would the story lead next. I mean, the Stormheim storyline just kind of dissipated in the end. And that's just one of many. I get that the story has to be kind of fluid and some ideas have to be cut or changed in the creating process as the expansion goes... But honestly. The story might have been better. I hope it will get better in BfA and after.

Sorry I do tend to be elaborate and list quite a few things since I can see the overall lore connecting and whatnot, I tend not to like be able to cut down since there is so much!

I mean I too can see that they have to cut it but I wish they would conclude it as quickly as they state the intentions. Like for example the crap with Eyir, I mean I can see logically what it could be but it's a dick move to leave it like that really for such a long time. Even then they could have easilymade it an audible cliffhanger because breaking that lantern pretty much ended it prematurely and even then you aren't hinted at anything else. Perhaps with BfA it will be apparent... Then the entire expansion and the selection of themes they picked seemed fishy to me.

I honestly feel us having the Zandalari is additional hint to my theory that... Sylvanas picked as Warchief was thanks to Vol'jin being told by a specific Loa... Bwonsamdi. After all, Voljin did say he was consulting with Loa, heck it could even be a fucking pack so that Vol'jin can escape the Shadowlands by compensation of souls in his place and nominates the only reliable candidate to actually get people killed. I only theorise this because Vol'jin called upon Bwonsamdi during the Echo Isles and promised him souls for helping to down Zul... Which Sylvanas is very affilated with death, Shadowlands and such, not to mention she's constantly acting with death around her whether she makes it happen by warmongering or whatever means.

I am on the same boat that BfA and future expansions are a little more streamlined. With my theory in sight, I can see it being potentially fun, interesting and new to explore a part of the game like the Shadowlands that gets mentioned by rarely more. Bit like Emerald Dream really.