Ret Paladin changes are nice but...

[Kaver]

you might be playing the wrong game man. Blizzard policies are to make the base gameplay simple, then customizable with talents and they're liking the added progression with end game. It's also not a crutch if everything acts that way, its the norm.

I think you should tell Blizzard this. How much customizability did Ret Palas have in legion? Zero.... Crusade all the way. The rest of the talent choices are all tivialities when they all really end in the same rotation. "Pop crusade and go crazy". Need AOE? take this talent.... Need Single Target dmg? take this talent... but the rotation is the same... for the whooooooooooooooole bloody expansion.

[Swampmoose]

Seal of Command:
This seal has a 20% chance to be activated on auto-attacks. Once triggered, can be activated within 10s to instantly mimic your previously used attack.

So..Divine Purpose, but without the option of choosing your spell?

Seal of Light:
This seal becomes active upon using a Holy Power Spender. For 6s after all attacks deal an extra (x% based on mastery) holy damage as a DoT stacking and refreshing the duration.

And SoV, but using HP spenders instead of auto attacks?

Seals need to stay in the trash. They were simply auto-attack modifiers with no real value, as someone already explained. Things like your suggested Seal of Divine Purpose are now in talents. I suppose adding those types of damage options as "Seals" will help those who insist the game be rewound 10 years, but there's really no need if they are present elsewhere.

[Wrecktangle]

So..Divine Purpose, but without the option of choosing your spell?

No you can choose which spell to use it on, by when you activate Seal of Command. I.e. Use Divine Storm -> Press Seal of Command -> Mimics Divine Storm cast.

And SoV, but using HP spenders instead of auto attacks?

Correct. It's a little different in how it's managed though because spenders are more dynamic than autos.

Seals need to stay in the trash. They were simply auto-attack modifiers with no real value, as someone already explained. Things like your suggested Seal of Divine Purpose are now in talents. I suppose adding those types of damage options as "Seals" will help those who insist the game be rewound 10 years, but there's really no need if they are present elsewhere.

Please understand that I don't care for seals. I've said as much earlier in this thread and I do not think Ret needs them, or auras, or blessings to have a well defined theme and engaging gameplay. I was merely responding to someone who asked if it was possible for me to identify an iteration I'd enjoy.

I figured it'd be like the opposite of a DK. Instead of having runes and spending them and waiting for recharges, you'd have a few Seals that you need to activate and once activated could be spent on a singular effect, or saved to try and consume multiple to activate AW. Obviously it'd require quite a bit of other changes to accommodate that I didn't get into, but I did specify in my post that making seals more or less elaborate was directly in reference to cutting/adding (respectively) mechanics elsewhere.

If you'd be willing to share your ideas on what would make for an engaging and thematic Ret spec, I'd love to hear it. You could just as easily say MoP Ret and here's why. It doesn't have to have any original ideas, etc.

[garonne]

You say that, but the specs were infinitely more fun back in MoP and WoD, and that was still using the same talent system.

EDIT; also when a spec doesn't function without the gimmicky item, i.e Balance Druid, that is called a crutch.

1.) maybe i'm being too technical here, but the artifact isn't a gimmick. the fact that you "think" it doesn't function without it alone makes it not a gimmick but a required item.

2.) Boomkins can function without their artifact weapon, its slower but its not non-functional without it. On top of that, you dont consider a vehicle/car a crutch. its an added bonus to your life and makes it better/easier as does the artifact weapon.

[Swampmoose]

Please understand that I don't care for seals. I've said as much earlier in this thread and I do not think Ret needs them, or auras, or blessings to have a well defined theme and engaging gameplay. I was merely responding to someone who asked if it was possible for me to identify an iteration I'd enjoy.

I figured it'd be like the opposite of a DK. Instead of having runes and spending them and waiting for recharges, you'd have a few Seals that you need to activate and once activated could be spent on a singular effect, or saved to try and consume multiple to activate AW. Obviously it'd require quite a bit of other changes to accommodate that I didn't get into, but I did specify in my post that making seals more or less elaborate was directly in reference to cutting/adding (respectively) mechanics elsewhere.

If you'd be willing to share your ideas on what would make for an engaging and thematic Ret spec, I'd love to hear it. You could just as easily say MoP Ret and here's why. It doesn't have to have any original ideas, etc.

I hear ya. That was more of a general response. I'm one of the few who doesn't mind Ret as it is. Have never hated it, will never hate it. I've pointed out a few things that needed correcting in my opinion.

1) Damage is too heavily reliant on AW/Crusade. Should be a bit more balance between when it's up and when it's not.
2) Judgement debuff was clumsy without sufficient haste and when on-demand target swapping is needed.
3) Mobility obviously.
4) Lack of utility that was once a staple of the class. Greater Blessings are nothing.

I personally don't care how they address these things, but they are the few things that I think would lead to a better experience. Most are quite obvious, some are being corrected, and some may not be. As for individual abilities, I really don't care all that much. When it comes down to it, WoW and every class is press abilities A B and C when Z Y and Z happen. They can call them whatever they want, put them in talents, put them in baseline abilities, really makes no difference to me. Things like seals though, they are either going to be auto attack modifiers again which is just boring and pointless fluff, or they will be like you described, which are basically existing abilities reworked into seals. Just doesn't seem necessary.

[garonne]

I think you should tell Blizzard this. How much customizability did Ret Palas have in legion? Zero.... Crusade all the way. The rest of the talent choices are all tivialities when they all really end in the same rotation. "Pop crusade and go crazy". Need AOE? take this talent.... Need Single Target dmg? take this talent... but the rotation is the same... for the whooooooooooooooole bloody expansion.

balance was off, no disagreement here.

[Schattenlied]

Rotations matter at max level, which is when you get artifacts/Azerite armor.

Rotations matter always... The leveling experience just got made longer, mobs don't die in 1-2 hits anymore, leveling 5 man dungeon bosses actually take a decent amount of time to kill, rotations matter below max level, because leveling needs to be an enjoyable experience too.

[Swampmoose]

As someone who mains a frost DK, do paladins really think they have bad mobility? Because if that's true - hahahaha

You must be new here.

[Schattenlied]

As someone who mains a frost DK, do paladins really think they have bad mobility? Because if that's true - hahahaha

You have Death Grip, an undispellable, spammable no cooldown ranged snare, and your mobility tool (which has the same cooldown as ours) doesn't require the use of a second ability(freedom, which can be dispelled/spellstolen) and 2 global cooldowns to be effective.

Frost and Ret's mobility are equal at best, but the difference is, Frost has the tools to make it work (Grip, Chains of Ice), and we don't.

Get out.

[Ravingmad]

I stopped thinking about the changes since I've seen Hammer of Wrath coming back and can be used during burst, like before.

Obviously, with the lost of the artefact weapon (same as all other classes), some adjustment are required. (and for a lot of class, this will affect the rotation).

We are only in alpha, things can change before launch. Usually Tier set helps to balance things out (For Ret pal anyway its always been +dmg to main/secondary ability + HP generation), but they won't be implanted in BfA. So we have the Azurite Sets instead.

Its too early to tell or panic IMO. I'll still play my RetPal whatever happens anyway.

[Rhaxus]

You have Death Grip, an undispellable, spammable no cooldown ranged snare, and your mobility tool (which has the same cooldown as ours) doesn't require the use of a second ability(freedom, which can be dispelled/spellstolen) and 2 global cooldowns to be effective.

Frost and Ret's mobility are equal at best, but the difference is, Frost has the tools to make it work (Grip, Chains of Ice), and we don't.

Get out.

missing a big fat "in regards to pvp"

[Schattenlied]

missing a big fat "in regards to pvp"

You mean the only place where mobility is a legitimate concern? I shouldn't have to specify that. Everyone has "enough" to make it work reasonably in PvE, not everyone has enough in PvP.

[crusadernero]

I don't get it. Why are you guys acting like Azerite gear is going to be like artifact weapons where you eventually unlock everything?

They pretty much will be, even more so I believe.

[Schattenlied]

They pretty much will be, even more so I believe.

I think they are going to end up being more like the Netherlight traits on relics... Each piece has a few options on it, and you have to choose between them, and the Netherlight Crucible was basically their proof of concept for the system.

[Wrecktangle]

I hear ya. That was more of a general response. I'm one of the few who doesn't mind Ret as it is. Have never hated it, will never hate it. I've pointed out a few things that needed correcting in my opinion.

1) Damage is too heavily reliant on AW/Crusade. Should be a bit more balance between when it's up and when it's not.
2) Judgement debuff was clumsy without sufficient haste and when on-demand target swapping is needed.
3) Mobility obviously.
4) Lack of utility that was once a staple of the class. Greater Blessings are nothing.

I personally don't care how they address these things, but they are the few things that I think would lead to a better experience. Most are quite obvious, some are being corrected, and some may not be. As for individual abilities, I really don't care all that much. When it comes down to it, WoW and every class is press abilities A B and C when Z Y and Z happen. They can call them whatever they want, put them in talents, put them in baseline abilities, really makes no difference to me. Things like seals though, they are either going to be auto attack modifiers again which is just boring and pointless fluff, or they will be like you described, which are basically existing abilities reworked into seals. Just doesn't seem necessary.

I too was quite surprised at how much I liked Legion Ret. It's not my favorite iteration, but it's certainly not bad minus a few heated areas, and I ALWAYS wanted an ability like Blade of Wrath (i'm an FFT fanboi). I really liked how Ret felt really sturdy this expansion and it was enjoyable to play.

To further discuss your points though I offer this:

1) While I don't like having ~60% of my total damage done based on a cooldown, it did have its perks. It was INCREDIBLY useful for M+ where that insane burst damage could make some of the scariest pulls on high keys nearly trivial with well coordinated CC. There is merit to an anemic but godlike cooldown playstyle and I actually think building the talents to support this as a good thing, it just needs to be competitive with other options though, which it isn't.

2) Agreed. I don't like the mastery at all. That said, I didn't like the flat bland % damage one we had before either. Sure it worked, but it wasn't good. Just like Arms mastery works, but it isn't really good. Me personally, if they wanted to rebuild ret around a new more engaging mastery setup I'd support it, but I'll play Ret no matter what playstyle it has, because I genuinely really like the aesthetic.

3) I don't like the GFX of Divine Steed. I really liked LAotL and speed of light better. I'd be ok with it if it was off the GCD though. Speaking strictly from dragonslaying POV.

4) Honestly, I really always thought Ret should have had the unique ability to be able to battle res or self res (a la Anhk). It fits thematically, adds some unique utility, and function. I agree that anything "fire and forget" is dead weight, including their bringing back devotion aura. That said BoP and Freedom are still useful. It just hurts that all Paladins have access to it and mechanics don't call on them as frequently as they could.

[Rhaxus]

You mean the only place where mobility is a legitimate concern? I shouldn't have to specify that. Everyone has "enough" to make it work reasonably in PvE, not everyone has enough in PvP.

doesn't matter if it's about having the worst mobility ingame. i avoid playing DK and paladin until they fix their mobility and i only play pve, so don't tell me it's not a legitimate concern outside of pvp

[Deleted]

I generally like what has been done so far but I do think there is lots of room for improvement.

They could add divine tempest to the divine vengeance talent. I do think that talent needs to be spicier. Also, I think consecration sucks as an ability in general, even with the holy power generation. I can't see it measuring up to wake of ashes especially considering that wake of ashes is movement friendly and obviously the single target choice.
They could get rid of consecration and change that talent to divine hammer that just shares of cooldown with blade of wrath rather than replacing it.

And I agree, its going to suck not cleaving with greater judgement. But, I wouldn't want them to buff the alpha version of the talent to include cleave with it being in a single target tier. They could just make zeal baseline?

Dude, i was leveling another paladin and i kept forgetting my Divine storm doesn't shoot forward. That became such an important element of how to aproach fights as Ret that i'm surprised (really shouldn't) that the devs didn't keep it. Having it on the new talent would be a consolation but i really think it's a major loss.

- - - Updated - - -

On topic, i'm alright with the changes, i just want the talents to be very well balanced. If i can choose my playstyle and have performance within 1% of the theoretical best setup i'm happy.
I definitly don't want to be forced into playing inquisition again. I don't care if it gives haste aswell now. It's not fun, it was never fun and the devs forgot why they removed it in the first place. Inquisition always felt like a penalty you had to lift and it was an expensive one. One GCD and 3HP for zero damage in that GCD while every other class does a nuke. You felt like you had no burst and you were always chasing the deficit. I hate it and i don't want to play it ever again if i can avoid it.

[gioderpington]

Wow this thread is a mess.
It looks like we will have more to do than *blade, judgement, templars (wake), crusade+blade, repeat until dead- use crusade, repeat 4.2 button rotation at 2x speed*
though idk if an execute and inquisition actually count as buffing the rotation.
I think pallies will be better off next expac, though I am skeptical of how fun they will actually be.
Part of the issue might be that ret pallies don't feel as great because we can hit a dps cap fairly quickly in 7.3. I hit 1.6-1.9+ mil dps early on and I havent been able to get much higher. Whereas everyone else starting to overtake me on the meters 1 week at a time. Its also annoying that my not as geared, 0 set piece alts can almost keep up with my paladin...

[brbshower]

There's nothing wrong with us seemingly being more single target focused...as long as Blizzard doesn't forget that in their raid design and make every single encounter an AOE shitstorm like they did in Legion. We had what...less than a handful of truly single target fights in the entire expansion? I hate it almost as much as I hate how everything was also anti caster. I can't think of more than a couple of fights where I could stand still and cast on any of my ranged dps, and the higher the difficulty, the more you moved. Mythic dogs are aids in antorus. Sure, faceroll easy, but just let me be still once lol.

[Schattenlied]

doesn't matter if it's about having the worst mobility ingame. i avoid playing DK and paladin until they fix their mobility and i only play pve, so don't tell me it's not a legitimate concern outside of pvp

In PvE it's only a matter of enjoyment, personal opinion, they can do it fine with what they have... In PvP, it severely limits Ret's comp choices as they need their teammates to prop them up (read: push around the Ret's wheelchair for them), and makes them all but entirely unwanted in rated battlegrounds, where they couldn't stick to a flag carrier if their life depended on it. DK has neither of those problems in PvP, because of Death Grip and Chains of Ice.

Legitimate concern = has an effect on their viability. It doesn't in PvE, as there is no situation where any class needs more than is available to it.