Wonder Woman and Black Panther's Success Has Theaters Asking for More Diversity

[Ragedaug]

Why does there need to be an allowance, necessarily; period pieces are never historically accurate and take creative liberties in terms of plot, why wouldn't it be justifiable?

Because it would completely take me out of the movie to see European and Asian tribe members for a movie set in 1700's African or South American rain forest. Or seeing Europeans or Africans in a movie about the Ming Dynasty.

[gioderpington]

Yes. /10char

[Elegiac]

Because it would completely take me out of the movie to see European and Asian tribe members for a movie set in 1700's African or South American rain forest. Or seeing Europeans or Africans in a movie about the Ming Dynasty.

But not a white Major Kusanagi. Gotcha.

[Ragedaug]

But not a white Major Kusanagi. Gotcha.

I don't do anime, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Kaibhan]

Right, we need to get back to "angry guy shoots a lot of bad guys in protecting his town/his girl/etc", and "Guy and girl hate each other and treat each other badly but then fall in love because love is magical", or "look at the costuming in this historical drama aren't we fabulous" movies.

Genre films are the majority of films. Superhero films are a genre. Don't enjoy 'em? Don't watch 'em. Nobody's making you go.

No shit sherlock. Ain't you an insightful piece of shit.

infracted - minor flaming

[Endus]

Why does there need to be an allowance, necessarily; period pieces are never historically accurate and take creative liberties in terms of plot, why wouldn't it be justifiable?

I wasn't necessarily thinking of a period piece, but there's been a few really excellent sci-fi novels recently that were set in India/Southeast Asia and the cast were pretty ethnically homogenous, largely because we were dealing with poor in those regions, who have low mobility.

[Elegiac]

I wasn't necessarily thinking of a period piece, but there's been a few really excellent sci-fi novels recently that were set in India/Southeast Asia and the cast were pretty ethnically homogenous, largely because we were dealing with poor in those regions, who have low mobility.

That's slightly different, namely because the ethnicity or whatever of the cast members is germane to the themes and plot of the story. It'd be pretty hard to make The Help with an entirely white cast, for example.

But if the story isn't contingent on it, then there's not necessarily harm in casting an actor that fits. The problem with whitewashing is more a function of it robbing already underrepresented minorities of roles.

[Macaquerie]

Because it would completely take me out of the movie to see European and Asian tribe members for a movie set in 1700's African or South American rain forest. Or seeing Europeans or Africans in a movie about the Ming Dynasty.

The 1700s were the height of the slave trade and colonialism, Africa and South America would have been teeming with European riff raff, and indeed pretty much people from all over the place looking to make a quick buck. The Ming Dynasty too was pretty well known for its naval prowess, being really the only period in Chinese history where rulers tried to expand their maritime influence, and plenty of European and African sailors, merchants, and slaves would have been seen at the major trading ports.

[Puddlejumper]

I have literally never heard a single person object to Black Panther being black, or Wonder Woman being a woman. Maybe that was a thing once upon a time, maybe even as late as the 70s, but it isn't a thing now, and it shouldn't be a surprise that it isn't a thing.

As for the movies themselves, it's a manufactured piece of hype. Wonder Woman was released in June, for one thing, and there have historically been lots of popular movies released off-season, including both Thor and Logan, last year. Some guy with an axe to grind decided to concoct a story that supports a change in policy he's invested in pushing, and squished the facts around until they sounded good enough for the average person to just go "sure, whatever" without thinking too hard. The concept that diversity in casting (which shouldn't, and probably doesn't, even matter) and diversity in release date (which is obviously vital, to the surprise of absolutely no one) have anything to do with each other, is a total joke.

[exochaft]

If Wonder Woman and Black Panther were successful because they were diverse in skin color and gender, that's just as bad as a movie being unsuccessful because of the skin color or gender. Skin color and gender shouldn't matter regardless, thought people would realize that by now. If a movie is entertaining, people will watch it.

A slight aside, though it does bear some relevance to the theme of this topic: does anyone else feel like the slavery angle in Black Panther was forced and not needed? I felt like it was a constant jab at US slavery, though the movie tried to make it like Wakandans were the victims of said slavery which makes no sense to me concerning their seclusion and royal lineage of said character that's constantly harping about it. If we were talking African slavery, sure, that would make probably more sense and be more believable albeit still a stretch for someone of royal lineage. If it was supposed to be an appeal to black audiences in the US, that's... well, mildly speaking, I feel like the movie is insulting people's intelligence in the matter. I let the colonist comment slide, because it at least made almost some sort of sense (even though the guy wasn't European, maybe he was a Dutch spy in a former life).

[Protean]

If Wonder Woman and Black Panther were successful because they were diverse in skin color and gender, that's just as bad as a movie being unsuccessful because of the skin color or gender. Skin color and gender shouldn't matter regardless, thought people would realize that by now. If a movie is entertaining, people will watch it.

A slight aside, though it does bear some relevance to the theme of this topic: does anyone else feel like the slavery angle in Black Panther was forced and not needed? I felt like it was a constant jab at US slavery, though the movie tried to make it like Wakandans were the victims of said slavery which makes no sense to me concerning their seclusion and royal lineage of said character that's constantly harping about it. If we were talking African slavery, sure, that would make probably more sense and be more believable albeit still a stretch for someone of royal lineage. If it was supposed to be an appeal to black audiences in the US, that's... well, mildly speaking, I feel like the movie is insulting people's intelligence in the matter. I let the colonist comment slide, because it at least made almost some sort of sense (even though the guy wasn't European, maybe he was a Dutch spy in a former life).

In Black Panther, the theme was Nationalism vs Racial Identity:

Wakandans put nationalism above all else, swearing fealty towards the land, throne and traditions.
Killmonger rejected that and instead felt an allegiance towards his people, his goal was them and their safety.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

It hasn't, especially since I was talking about our society rather than whether an artwork is 'multicultural'.

Tell yourself what you need to, kiddo.

I mean, Black Panther really is highly multicultural as Wakanda takes its aesthetic inspirations from all over the African continent. But that's not really the subject of discussion.

Oh, so that's what makes a show "multicultural." Got it. I guess Black Lightning is the most anti-multicultural show on television then, seeing as how it's about a single American community in a single American city featuring American actors of the same race and culture. Whereas something like, say, Dunkirk is multicultural as fuuuuuuuck with its Scottish, German, English, and French characters, amongst others.

Good to know! "Multicultural" when used by people like you has nothing to do with skin color but 100% their culture. <thumbs up>

You heard it here first folks: Didactic considers Dunkirk to be a wonderfully multicultural film. Spread the word!

[Darknessvamp]

To a certain extent it has to do with diversity yes. When you get 100 movies where a white guy is the hero/savior everyone needs it gets dull as fuck, so changing up the pattern with *gasp* a woman/black man blows peoples minds because it's "different".

But it's also owed to the fact that the movies themselves are great.
I Mean Thor: Ragnarok did well because it was a great movie, not because Valkyrie or w/e was black, and that movie was released in the middle of October, aka, not summer.

Well considering over the years that there have been a number of films featuring women as the hero/savior (Resident Evil Series, literally every action-comedy/thriller that Sandra Bullock has been in and a bunch of Angelina Jolie films come to mind) as well as Black heros/saviors (Nearly every Will Smith movie, a number of Wesley Snipes movies and Denzel Washington's whole resume), people really need to stop acting like cinema is blowing their mind and claiming Diversity in film is only happening now as if we've been living with the apartheid for the last 40-50 years or something.

[Ragedaug]

The 1700s were the height of the slave trade and colonialism, Africa and South America would have been teeming with European riff raff, and indeed pretty much people from all over the place looking to make a quick buck. The Ming Dynasty too was pretty well known for its naval prowess, being really the only period in Chinese history where rulers tried to expand their maritime influence, and plenty of European and African sailors, merchants, and slaves would have been seen at the major trading ports.

Would it help you to understand my point if I said the "Yuan Dynasty"?

Regarding the Africa and South America native tribe members - if the "European riff raff" were playing the tribe members, that would take me completely out of the movie. I mean sure, I would figure they are representing black folks, but I could not be immersed in that. I would think the whole time that I'm watching a play, like something I would see at a High School. "yeah, that white kid is not a Native American, but since they don't have any Native Americans at the school to cast for the role I understand why they did it". So yeah, it happens, but I would feel like I'm watching something amateurish.

Like watching Johnny Depp play Tonto. Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Milchshake]

Were people actually watching Black Panther?

T'Challa's speech in the first end credit scene, with his talk of bringing the world together and tearing away walls and barriers, is essentially a giant middle finger to any alt right neo-Nazi wanting to co-opt this movie as their own.

Wakanda will no longer watch from the shadows. We can not. We must not. We will work to be an example of how we, as brothers and sisters on this earth, should treat each other. Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe.

That's like one big Fuck Your Wall

Mike Drop.

[Polyxo]

What I take from their success is that 'white dude leads' should no longer be considered a major 'requirement' for the general success of a movie. Along with that, incidentally non-white and non-male leads should be more common. "No, it just has to be a dude," or "but that actor's too 'ethnic'" should be dead statements in casting.

[Ragedaug]

Were people actually watching Black Panther?

T'Challa's speech in the first end credit scene, with his talk of bringing the world together and tearing away walls and barriers, is essentially a giant middle finger to any alt right neo-Nazi wanting to co-opt this movie as their own.

That's like one big Fuck Your Wall

Mike Drop.

How many Islamic refuges do you suppose Wakanda will bring in? Do you suppose Wakanda will remove their border security and have W'Kabi tell his people to stand down as Wakanda is a borderless global nation now?

Considering their neighboring countries are Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia, and Tanzania, how long do you figure it will take for Wakanda to have a population too big to maintain and provide for? If that happens, then what do they do? Just keep their borderless "all are welcome" open/free immigration new philosophy?

I'm mostly just curious to see how all that works out in your head.

[Deletedaccount1]

Looks like a good thing. More diverse movies means a better likelihood of seeing something new and interesting. And more diverse scheduling means not haing to plan your summer around the latest Transformers, Fast Furious, or Ninja Turtle sequel.
Theatre Owners, say the success of films like Wonder Woman and Black Panther, which is current box office run is only rivaled by Star Wars: The Force Awakens. Defies two major Hollywood beliefs. One, that big movies can only come out in the summer or the run-up to Christmas, and two, that there isn’t money in mainstream movie fare that appeals to a much broader audience than the typically expected.

I don't buy into this. Black Panther is probably doing well because it found a way to break the Marvel fatigue. It isn't out in my country yet though so I haven't had the chance to see it. Wonder Woman was the only good DC movie according to many people and that's not only because a woman was the lead. The part of The Last Jedi with the most racial diversity (the Finn and Rose plot) was widely considered the worst.

I'm afraid that Black Panther for me will be a lot like Get Out. All the left wing critics say it's an amazing movie and then you go see it and it's a pretty good comedy thriller. I expect Black Panther will be a pretty good movie that critics over hyped and I will enjoy it not but not because the entire cast was black but because it was actually entertaining and different from the average superhero film.

[Macaquerie]

Would it help you to understand my point if I said the "Yuan Dynasty"?

Regarding the Africa and South America native tribe members - if the "European riff raff" were playing the tribe members, that would take me completely out of the movie. I mean sure, I would figure they are representing black folks, but I could not be immersed in that. I would think the whole time that I'm watching a play, like something I would see at a High School. "yeah, that white kid is not a Native American, but since they don't have any Native Americans at the school to cast for the role I understand why they did it". So yeah, it happens, but I would feel like I'm watching something amateurish.

Like watching Johnny Depp play Tonto. Doesn't make any sense to me.

The Yuan Dynasty was Mongolian, and they imported people from all over their empire to serve as officials and administrators in China. In fact, all of Chinese history is far more multicultural than you might think, a country of that size can't possibly just be some ethnically homogeneous blob. As far as the Native Americans go, quite a few of the tribe members WERE white, because it was a common practice of many tribes to kidnap young girls to replenish their numbers, and many European settlements were often raided for this purpose. Granted, this was mostly a common practice in North America, but in South America and Africa you had no shortage of people who sought to "go native" and live amongst the local tribes. It goes without saying, of course, that medieval Europe was hardly ethnically homogeneous either, as there was a huge influx of Muslims who poured into Spain and the Ottoman territories, and later a large inflow of African and Native American slaves brought in by the Spanish and Portuguese. And this is completely ignoring all of the random travelers who moved about for their own reasons.

The point is that there is no mythical time or place where people of different races all just stayed in their own little boxes and didn't interact or intermix with one another. That simply was never true anywhere, and the fact that we keep reinforcing this idea in movies is the real tragedy of historical revisionism.

How many Islamic refuges do you suppose Wakanda will bring in? Do you suppose Wakanda will remove their border security and have W'Kabi tell his people to stand down as Wakanda is a borderless global nation now?

Considering their neighboring countries are Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia, and Tanzania, how long do you figure it will take for Wakanda to have a population too big to maintain and provide for? If that happens, then what do they do? Just keep their borderless "all are welcome" open/free immigration new philosophy?

I'm mostly just curious to see how all that works out in your head.

If Wakanda were a real country, they'd probably do what every other advanced nation does and bring in poor immigrants to do the dirty work. They wouldn't have to worry much about straining their resources, because by opening up their doors to trade they could make a killing selling their technology to their neighbors and use that to buy up all the natural resources they need, which Africa has plenty of.

If we're talking about the fictional Wakanda, which of course was conceived as a black power fantasy land, they would be even more welcoming and accepting of their black brothers and sisters. Their foreign policy would almost certainly be to consolidate all of these rival states into a unified coalition under Wakandan leadership to resist hostile Western influences.

[Ragedaug]

What I take from their success is that 'white dude leads' should no longer be considered a major 'requirement' for the general success of a movie. Along with that, incidentally non-white and non-male leads should be more common. "No, it just has to be a dude," or "but that actor's too 'ethnic'" should be dead statements in casting.

People seem to be making up stuff that doesn't exist. Movies with non-white leads have been very successful for many years. Nobody is saying you got to have a white dude as the lead for a movie to be successful. I can't remember the last time I've heard anyone say that. I have heard Asian actors laughing at white people and white media who are patting themselves on the back for how Black Panther is helping black people, noting that there are already many successful leading black men, where leading Asian men are pretty rare.

- - - Updated - - -

The Yuan Dynasty was Mongolian, and they imported people from all over their empire to serve as officials and administrators in China. In fact, all of Chinese history is far more multicultural than you might think, a country of that size can't possibly just be some ethnically homogeneous blob. As far as the Native Americans go, quite a few of the tribe members WERE white, because it was a common practice of many tribes to kidnap young girls to replenish their numbers, and many European settlements were often raided for this purpose. Granted, this was mostly a common practice in North America, but in South America and Africa you had no shortage of people who sought to "go native" and live amongst the local tribes. It goes without saying, of course, that medieval Europe was hardly ethnically homogeneous either, as there was a huge influx of Muslims who poured into Spain and the Ottoman territories, and later a large inflow of African and Native American slaves brought in by the Spanish and Portuguese. And this is completely ignoring all of the random travelers who moved about for their own reasons.

The point is that there is no mythical time or place where people of different races all just stayed in their own little boxes and didn't interact or intermix with one another. That simply was never true anywhere, and the fact that we keep reinforcing this idea in movies is the real tragedy of historical revisionism.



If Wakanda were a real country, they'd probably do what every other advanced nation does and bring in poor immigrants to do the dirty work. They wouldn't have to worry much about straining their resources, because by opening up their doors to trade they could make a killing selling their technology to their neighbors and use that to buy up all the natural resources they need, which Africa has plenty of.

So you are saying if they cast Chris Hemsworth as Kublai Khan, you'd roll right along with that having no problems staying immersed?