Do you want titanforging removed?

[Kakera]

Yes awful system

[grexly75]

Those others always had their chance at good loot. Just do content that warrants it. That aside, it's not just about people being overrewarded for easy content. It's mostly a problem with tuning, where old tier sets/trinkets(and difficulties that are below your level) become worth farming for titanforges(or they have to make them so bad either initially or through later nerfs that they're not worth getting, which is just dumb) and content gets overgeared before you reach it.

But still not really a reason to remove it..

[klaps_05]

While the system is a bit wonky, with the changes coming to BFA (3 pieces always dropping at max ilevel, necklace leveling and weapons only going to +10) i think its ok. it would be nice to have an additional method of purchasing upgrades like in Cata too.

[Tradu]

But still not really a reason to remove it..

It forces Blizzard to make trinkets garbage(to the point where statsticks are some of the best, which is pretty disgusting) and remove tier sets. Those things add way more to the game than titanforging. And again, titanforging fucks up gear progression by letting people randomly luck into skipping steps.

[Deleted]

I voted no otherwise I woudnl't do a pick up raid/LFR more than once or twice. And if raiding is gutted, ill probably just not play at all. I think that most of the people who hate TF items, are just pissed that casuals are closing in our their precious ilevels.

I actually would like to see it go for the benefit of casual players. Without it nobody over the item level of 940 in every slot is going to bother much with m+15 keys, so people forming these groups will have to invite people with less gear, making it a lot simpler for casual players to gear up. For me personally titanforging has almost no effect on the game. I still think it is bad.

[Eazy]

Yes, because it's unfair.

[Magicon]

Well, atleast now on alpha, 4 items will not be titanforging. 5 if weapons do not (I think they mentioned TF is not on weapons). We need titanforging, else, those that have top gear have nothing to raid for etc, and will then start complaining like "I have full perfect armor equipped, what do I do now Blizzard!? You fucked up! Time to play another game". Though I cannot understand that, getting full perfect gear is nice, that means you can go do other things in the game which actually IS fun and relaxing. But you know, people complain about everything nowadays.

[Tradu]

Well, atleast now on alpha, 4 items will not be titanforging. 5 if weapons do not (I think they mentioned TF is not on weapons). We need titanforging, else, those that have top gear have nothing to raid for etc, and will then start complaining like "I have full perfect armor equipped, what do I do now Blizzard!? You fucked up! Time to play another game". Though I cannot understand that, getting full perfect gear is nice, that means you can go do other things in the game which actually IS fun and relaxing. But you know, people complain about everything nowadays.

The people actually in a position to reach that point are not the ones complaining about reaching that point generally. We would actually appreciate just reaching a point of being done and not having to worry about gear anymore for a few months. Go hard for a few weeks/months(depending on the guild), then be able to just relax, as you said.

[Battlebeard]

It was an awful idea to begin with. It gives incentive to do content below your actual gear level and that's a bad thing. The incentive should be to move forward not backwards. I don't want to ever do a raid below the current one, nor a difficulty below where I actually aim to raid.

And ofc, it adds RNG to gearing, which is also a very bad thing.

Instead, the upgrade system was perfect, add a currency you can upgrade your gear with, make you WORK for your ilvl increase instead of getting it random.

[Raelbo]

Progression implies there's a process of developing or moving gradually towards a more advanced state. With TF there is no such process.

Please walk me through the logic of this statement because honestly, it makes absolutely zero sense as you have stated it.

TF is a straight up enhancement to previous gear progression. If you win a TF upgrade of an existing item, your gear has progressed. The process is you kill bosses, you have a chance of winning upgrades. The more time you spend killing bosses, the more TF gear you're going to get. How on earth is this somehow not progression?

[Trickname]

No.
But I really don't see why there can't be a 'long way round' system alongside it to raise the item level of stuff that doesn't warforge/titanforge. This ability to upgrade could be limited to 2-4 slots as it's not expected that everything you have will be warforged/titanforged.

[alexchaos]

Please walk me through the logic of this statement because honestly, it makes absolutely zero sense as you have stated it.

TF is a straight up enhancement to previous gear progression. If you win a TF upgrade of an existing item, your gear has progressed. The process is you kill bosses, you have a chance of winning upgrades. The more time you spend killing bosses, the more TF gear you're going to get. How on earth is this somehow not progression?

Tho you have the chance to NOT get that piece TF for the whole tier which is why it's bad design.

[Tradu]

Please walk me through the logic of this statement because honestly, it makes absolutely zero sense as you have stated it.

TF is a straight up enhancement to previous gear progression. If you win a TF upgrade of an existing item, your gear has progressed. The process is you kill bosses, you have a chance of winning upgrades. The more time you spend killing bosses, the more TF gear you're going to get. How on earth is this somehow not progression?

It makes perfect sense. In the past, you progressed through raids/difficulties and gradually got better gear as appropriate for the difficulty. With titanforging you randomly skip multiple difficulty levels rather than progressing through them.

[Sartre]

Coming from a mythic raider who has several 980 TFs (so no QQ on my side),

This is an RPG game. We should be able to PLAN and EXECUTE that plan. There could be a little bit of luck involved, but nothing game changer. We already deal with luck with loot drops anyway.

Items should be able to upgraded. A 930 to 945, a 945 to 960, and a 960 to 975. That's it.

Very basically; you dropped a loot, but you prefer your item on the same slot to be upgraded instead? "Disforge" the loot (or use a currency like valor), and use the essence to upgrade it. It could be +5 for each.

But now we have raiders who feel dissapointed because their tier piece didn't proc any forges. Just like we had players who felt dissapointed because a bad LEGENDARY dropped.

Too much rng, this wasn't supposed to be like a f2p mobile game last time I checked.

I also work inside the game industry, so I understand the motives. Those mechanics are introduced with KPIs such as retention, ARPU, and LTV in mind. Many RNG elements in the game make you swear on the mechanics, but they still keep you playing. From the Data's perspective, this translates into a successful decision. Probably Blizz is also 100% awared of the problems and more that aren't listed here, but also probably at least some of those mechanics are proven to affect the KPIs positively.

I still have no arcanocrystal dropped for me, but for a very long time I tried to farm argunites. From the data perspective, arcanocrystal's rng drop model looks successful.

So, as always, if you hate something in the game, the best thing you can do is to fill a feedback form, then cancel sub, or simply play a lot less, the collected data will speak for yourselves better.

[Vorkreist]

A million times YES.

[Raelbo]

It was an awful idea to begin with. It gives incentive to do content below your actual gear level and that's a bad thing. The incentive should be to move forward not backwards. I don't want to ever do a raid below the current one, nor a difficulty below where I actually aim to raid.

Given that you clearly missed the idea entirely, you can't really comment on whether it is awful or not....

The idea was never to make lesser content mandatory and thus push people to do it even when they have no real interest in it. It is to make that content more rewarding for those who do have an interest in doing it. The problem is purely with players who lack the ability to take a realistic perspective on the system. Honestly, there is absolutely zero reason why any Mythic Raider, for example, should ever feel compelled to run LFR for the chance at winning a possible TF upgrade. Firstly the odds are of actually getting an upgrade at all are pretty small to start out with. Secondly even if you do manage to get an upgrade, it's unlike to make a significant difference. The odds of getting a meaningful upgrade are so astronomically small that you'd be far better off finding other ways of spending your time if you actually want to achieve some kind of progression.

TL;DR: Just because there is a chance of getting that upgrade, doesn't mean you have a serious incentive to pursue it.

And ofc, it adds RNG to gearing, which is also a very bad thing.

Gearing has always had RNG.

Instead, the upgrade system was perfect, add a currency you can upgrade your gear with, make you WORK for your ilvl increase instead of getting it random.

While I personally quite liked the VP system, it was far from perfect. For a start you had people complaining that they were forced to run scenarios, heroic dungeons and daily quests to grind their VP cap every week. And then there was always the issue of not wanting to waste VP on an upgrade unless you had your BiS piece....

Secondly, just because TF is "random" doesn't mean you can't work towards it. With the way that gear can be traded, and given the number of slots and number of bosses in the raid, across a guild, gear upgrades happen at a fairly predictable rate.

What you can't do is operate in checklist mode where you can tick off each item slot for BiS and then declare that you're done. But then again I think that was a pretty bad system to start with.

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Tho you have the chance to NOT get that piece TF for the whole tier which is why it's bad design.

Why is that important?

[Deleted]

No. TF is the only thing that keeps stale content interesting and people vastly overestimate its impact.

It's the multiple difficulties, not an RNG machine. +10 ilvl warforged is OK, but TF is ridiculous and it inflates ilvl further.

[Revamp Man]

i hated TF items early on in legion because of the situation where a neck piece dropped for me on my monk that was crap for me but BiS for our fire mage and since it TF to 895....i couldnt trade it because "you shouldnt feel forced to trade items that are an upgrade" (fuck you too blizz)

i still hate it now not just for that same reason (though thanks to legendaries most of my slots are tradable) but because it removes the excitement from new content

got the uber rare wrist drop you got from the mythic boss after 200 wipes and excited??? well too bad because the wrist you got from that random mythic DHT you and a few guildies ran for footage is better (yeah that happened)

i understand it is exciting for some people to get a huge upgrade if you only ever run that content but personally TF takes away the excitement from upgrades from harder content. Its like legiondaries where the people that get the most enjoyment out of it dont get the most use out of it.

you got a legendary that makes your touch of death hit harder and able to be placed on 2 targets AND you got that epic titanforged relic while you only play lfr/random heroics??? well thats great because outside of maybe lfr the legendary wont matter and the boost from the relic doesnt mean much

[Tradu]

Given that you clearly missed the idea entirely, you can't really comment on whether it is awful or not....

The idea was never to make lesser content mandatory and thus push people to do it even when they have no real interest in it. It is to make that content more rewarding for those who do have an interest in doing it. The problem is purely with players who lack the ability to take a realistic perspective on the system. Honestly, there is absolutely zero reason why any Mythic Raider, for example, should ever feel compelled to run LFR for the chance at winning a possible TF upgrade. Firstly the odds are of actually getting an upgrade at all are pretty small to start out with. Secondly even if you do manage to get an upgrade, it's unlike to make a significant difference. The odds of getting a meaningful upgrade are so astronomically small that you'd be far better off finding other ways of spending your time if you actually want to achieve some kind of progression.

TL;DR: Just because there is a chance of getting that upgrade, doesn't mean you have a serious incentive to pursue it.




Gearing has always had RNG.



While I personally quite liked the VP system, it was far from perfect. For a start you had people complaining that they were forced to run scenarios, heroic dungeons and daily quests to grind their VP cap every week. And then there was always the issue of not wanting to waste VP on an upgrade unless you had your BiS piece....

Secondly, just because TF is "random" doesn't mean you can't work towards it. With the way that gear can be traded, and given the number of slots and number of bosses in the raid, across a guild, gear upgrades happen at a fairly predictable rate.

What you can't do is operate in checklist mode where you can tick off each item slot for BiS and then declare that you're done. But then again I think that was a pretty bad system to start with.

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Why is that important?

Gearing never had this degree of RNG, which is the problem. The item had to drop, end of story. Now it has to drop and WF/TF to a decent level in addition. And TF was definitely intended to incentivize people doing difficulties that were too easy for them, Blizzard just marketed it as "helping your friends". And that checklist system of BiS was great, basically nobody who actually reached it complained about it, because it was nice to just be done for a while.

[Raelbo]

It makes perfect sense. In the past, you progressed through raids/difficulties and gradually got better gear as appropriate for the difficulty. With titanforging you randomly skip multiple difficulty levels rather than progressing through them.

No, nothing has changed in that regard. You still progress through content difficulty exactly as before. Just because titanforging exists doesn't mean you "randomly skip" anything. Maybe you need to give me an example of what you mean because while you might think that what you're saying is obvious, it isn't.

What has changed is that you can progress further (gearwise) in whatever difficulty content you're participating in. This is a good thing because it helps groups that need more gear to progress to keep progressing if they're prepared to keep at it, instead of, as what used to happen, hitting a brick wall.