DH - BfA

[lolskillzz]

After looking at the alpha notes and some of the feedback here and from a few other sources. I think the changes look ok but havoc is still lacking and the rng that plagues us now is still present. (Just not as badly.) I have thrown around some ideas from a pvper and pvers pov. I am curious what people think and am posting them here since I lack alpha access to post to blizz directly.

For starters, I like the chaos strike change but think it is still prone to the same badluck we could have now. I propose adding a sort of bad luck protection mechanic like they currently have in Legion for Legendary system. Basically, every time you chaos strike and do not get the refund, you get a 20 or even 30% chance to get it on your next chaos strike. This will ofc stack to 100% and consume on the proc. This should help tone back the random nature to the spec while keeping some flavor and making it somewhat unpredictable.

Second I would reduce the cd of meta to 3 minutes, idk but I feel like 4 minutes is quite hefty for what is no doubt a powerful tool but not enough to warrant that kind of lengthy cooldown.

Now for talents, I am going to start in the last row than move from the top downward.

Demonic and momentum I think overall are fine but nemesis needs scrapped in place for chaos blades. Simple and done.

Now from the top. I think both fel blade and blind fury are fine. Although change fel blade to chaos damage ffs. Both provide a nice bonus and can be good in multiple situations and help to add a different playstyle depending on the talent you choose. Now for demonic appetite, overall its fine but imo is a dead talent. I propose adding the bad luck protection to the proc for fragments and also taking the bonus from the radon legendary and incorporating it into this talent. This could easily make this talent work taking and even “funner” for those who enjoy that play style, while offering the ability to reset eyebeam with ease.

The one hundred row I would leave the same, with the exception of immolation aura. I would make that deal chaos damage. I am not a massive fan of demonblades but I feel it can fit and work and a large portion of the player bases enjoys the playstyle.

In the 102 row I would swap Trail of Ruin around with First Blood. And maybe add something to increase the potency of Fel Mastery but aside from the first idea this row seems pretty alright. I do think adding First Blood adds a nice single target option and adds another ability in the rotation for different builds.

For 104 I would make the passive leech on soul rend 15% and another 15% while meta is active. The other two choices are fine although I do wish Netherwalk had another effect like a debuff removal or a minor heal of some sort.

106 is where things get interesting and my ideas all sort of mesh. Here me out. For starters I think Dark slash should remain, it could add another way to play the spec and an option for those who enjoy the colossal smash style gameplay. Although it might need watched when paired with chaos blades and meta in instanced pvp. ( pvp balancing is still miles away but food for thought.) Trail of ruin I believe should be in this row and kept the same for the most part, just with a slight modification that it applies the debuff during the last slash to ALL targets hit by it. This would make this talent a nice choice for aoe and add another option to our talents and playstyles. Now for the big one, Cycle of hatred. I like this talent But i think it needs modified. For starters make it proc for every X amount of fury you spend (50 imo seems fair.) the reduction should be enough to make it so with relatively average fury return from chaos strikes you will see meta basically be a 2 minute cd and line up very well with chaos blades if the you have selected that talent. It would ofc work relatively well with momentum and just give you more metas. But if demonic is selected, I think it should no longer reduce cd on meta but on eyebeam instead. This would allow the current demonic build that a portion of the playerbase enjoys to work but not be plagued by the constant soul fragment and crit rng while also trying to not overcap fury and move to pickup fragments. It would also allow us to see much more use of one of two most iconic abilities, eyebeam and meta form. I personally think being able to eyebeam every 10-20 sec on average depending on your build would be perfect and really fit the theme and class fantasy of dh. It would also not have us mirroring the spriest who remains in void from until they can no longer maintain resources. It would be our own sort of unique but fun playstyle.

Ofc this is a very rough set of ideas and tuning would surely need done but I think havoc would be in alot better looking state in alpha with these ideas.

Also this was posted from my phone so apologies on any grammar or spelling errors.

[Deleted]

@Sendula I think it would definitely have been an improvment over current t21 demonic which seems to be a pretty divisive spec atm, people either love it or hate it, i personally love it but feel that being able to control your meta duration would have made it better.

The reason that a spriest who hates it wants it for dh is really because the current demonic was not built around my suggestion being a thing which makes it perfect. The way its implemented for spriest is terrible, they put far too much into it and had the spec completely based on only doing damage at 40+ stacks.
Dh have none of the drawbacks spriest has for it and would play fairly similar to how demo warlocks played it, it was an addition to your spec not the defining part of it. Demo warlocks absolutely LOVED it but most spriests hate it because of the way it was designed for spriests which is completely different to demo warlocks.

Honestly if you ignore everything about spriest void forms and just look at how demonic plays right now, all that would change is you stay in meta for longer than 8 seconds. There would be none of the voidform stacks or stuff like that, no ramp up times. Just the ability to maintain your demonic metas for longer than the fixed 8 seconds.

They are going a different route im bfa which is fine but i would definitely like this to be how demonic worked in the future to give it something, because after t21 is gone i doubt it will be used again except for world content healing.

You do have a point, but I still believe it'd be just a massive risk and tons of resources to completely revamp DH and remove their staple CD for a low-mid reward on developer end. Probably not gonna happen, although an OPTION to have a playstyle like that instead of traditional meta = godmode could be interesting.

Demonic is absolutely brutal for priority target damage. As it stands, Eye Beam into Dark Slash into Annihilation spam rips things a new one so fast they can't react.

Wish they'd move some of our damage away from Meta and in to our normal rotation. Going from top of the pack at the start of a fight all the way down to middle or lower by the end of the fight is frustrating as fuck.

That's only a problem if CD stacking, which is partially lifted in BfA already as Chaos Blades was completely deleted, and you probably won't find a way to burst and then freefall on the meter unless you pick some odd Demon Blades Fel Barrage Nemesis Cycle of Hatred build or something like that.

snip

You're completely wrong on many fronts, so let me help here.

RNG that is a plague is basically gone, as the only RNG layers left in baseline spec is random gain from Demon's Bite as well as Chaos Strike refunds. BUT given than you will cast these hundreds of times (haste being a king stat in BfA and all that) these will average out, unless on a really shitty roll period, but that happens so rarely you won't even be considering it in a standard 5 minutes fight, even less so if it drags out.

Not only that, but refunds are untied from crits - inherently means that you no longer get more damage from dealing more damage, the positive feedback loop aspect is kind of lowered, of course you can get refunds upon refunds, but that doesn't neccesarily mean you'll outdamage the other DH that had less refunds but more crits (unless of course you had insane luck and went Cycle of Hatred).

That easily leads us to a conclusion that bad luck protection on Chaos Strike isn't neccesary anymore, as it would have been in Legion.


Meta cooldown you can reduce with Demonic Origins in pvp and Cycle of Hatred in PVE, it's honestly fine as it gives you the big red button, it is a strong offensive as well as defensive cooldown in comparison to other CDs out there and 4 minutes baseline is more than fine.

As for talents, as you (no offense) propose an abomination.

Chaos Blades has to be gone as it honestly is even more braindead than Nemesis is (and that's telling) as well as creating an obstacle in properly tuning Demon Blades, as it lifted your natural white swing miss chance while bursting. Fury overflow while dealing monstrous damage, while it is generated off-gcd, wasn't ideal as it led to our shitty tuning.


Felblade dealing Chaos would be ideal, as well as untying it from any haste scaling (both CD and resets' RPPM). No other talent in that row scales with haste but does have nice mastery scaling, and would solidify this row as the mastery but not haste, while the next one is haste but not mastery.

As for Demonic Appetite, you're wrong on all accounts. It's pretty strong as it's the only one that offers off-GCD generation here, but also comes at absolutely random times and restricts your movement shortly after a proc. For all these tradeoffs, you enjoy the added bonus of being able to sometimes generate on successful Chaos Novas and the ability to snipe low HP mobs for more fury.
Not to mention it is on RPPM, which translates to a set of fragments each minute - no more RNG than Felblade resets.

Adding Raddons to it, or even worse, CDR on eating fragments, is creating a hyperscaling positive feedback RNG loop. You said you dislike RNG and yet you'd add it everywhere. How come?


Immolation Aura dealing Chaos damage (thus scaling with Mastery) while everything else on the row doesn't leaves S tier and enters absolutely must have tier. Not that I mind, but it's really strong, as the opportunity cost for Insatiable Hunger to match Immolation Aura on pure ST is 11 Demon's Bite casts per 20 GCDs, that's highly unlikely.


Swapping Trail of Ruin with First Blood is basically saying 'you pick X for ST and Y for AoE'. Blizzard is trying to remove that kind of rows and replace them with pure ST/AoE/Cleave tiers to reinforce personal choice. That can't happen or you kill any diversity in the tree (there actually is a lot of freedom now, even though tuning will probably reinforce some talents such as Immo Aura or Dark Slash to be BiT on pure patchwerk sims, always).
Blizzard needs to do something about Trail of Ruin being the only one scaling with haste though, as well as Fel Mastery being dogshit (talented Fel Rush deals less damage than Meta's superhero landing...) but that's mostly tuning.


Is 10% passive, permanent leech not enough? Consumption is highly regarded as op and it gives people an effective 6.67% leech.


As for the rest, I believe creating talents that are purely based on positive feedback loops are bad, and even moreso when you can't balance them properly. That's the idea when talents are purely separate entities and don't neccesarily have synergies (besides the required ones like Demon Blades resetting Felblade, otherwise you'd waste the entire reset mechanic and pick and undertuned talent that's useless for you in each and every case).

Refunds on Eye Beam CD while spending? That means more refunds on CS fuels more fury for more CS, that means more EBs and more meta uptime + fury to spend on CS. That's what we already have in T21. That's what we're trying to prevent.

I rest my case.

[Deleted]

I hope you could play dh like the old demo warlock if you spec the right talents.
It's a bad design for me if it's only about how I get my resource full and stack 1 (darks lash) or 2 (nemesis or momentum) buffs and than spam cs and bladedance. T20 build with first blood and chaosblades feels so bad to play for me. It works like a smf fury in early mop. Pop up all CDs and after them you have dps like a wet noodle.

I hope so they bring a good version from the t21 demonic playstyle with the legy head bake into.

A shadow priest says the same here it could work well for dh.
And wc3 dh is fare away from wow dh. Or do we shoot instant chaos bold s with out gcd. I can't remember that I see a chaosbolt machine gun dh in legion.

So what they have to do for a small rework?
Demonic appetite
If a soul spawn you don't have to pick it up. It flys to you. You get a buff stacks up 5 times if you reach 5 stacks you could use it and get fury plus the heal.
To remove random effect every chaos strike produce a soul and with 5 stack you could use it for x fury and x heal.

Demonic
Eyebeam 8 sec meta, every chaos strike reduce the cd from eyebeam x seconds, if eyebeam hits more than 2 targets the cd gets reduced for x seconds for every target.

Than I would change demon blades
Replace demons bite
Passiv you gain x fury every second.
No proc no random.

So you have to passiv talents and one aktiv to use talent

- - - Updated - - -

You do have a point, but I still believe it'd be just a massive risk and tons of resources to completely revamp DH and remove their staple CD for a low-mid reward on developer end. Probably not gonna happen, although an OPTION to have a playstyle like that instead of traditional meta = godmode could be interesting


Is 10% passive, permanent leech not enough? Consumption is highly regarded as op and it gives people an effective 6.67% leech.

.

Meta like a super son goku

10% leech isn't that great if hunter get that only with pick a utility pet.
Why not 20 % leech flat so in meta we have 40 out of it 20%. Remember we are the only spec with no real option to heal us. Only meta 4 min CD.

[Deleted]

I hope you could play dh like the old demo warlock if you spec the right talents.
It's a bad design for me if it's only about how I get my resource full and stack 1 (darks lash) or 2 (nemesis or momentum) buffs and than spam cs and bladedance.

God dammit. DH is all about being the uncontrollable, erratic, hyper thing containing a demon inside. Old demo was 100% control. Neither playstyles or themes are compatible.

Also, if you didn't check BfA trees, you can talent into additional complexity on top of the baseline one just so that you have it more difficult than the other guy. Or have you already mastered managing Felblade and its resets, Immolation Aura, Fel Barrage, Dark Slash, Fel Rush, Vengeful Retreat and Eye Beam being kept on cooldown while maximizing DPS AND not overcapping fury at all with proper pooling and spending at the right time?

T20 build with first blood and chaosblades feels so bad to play for me. It works like a smf fury in early mop. Pop up all CDs and after them you have dps like a wet noodle.

I hope so they bring a good version from the t21 demonic playstyle with the legy head bake into.

Burning CDs and then doing nothing was shit, in Legion most specs weren't difficult at all and that's changing so that you won't need to feel bad.

Why would you bake in Raddons? It legitimately is THE ONLY thing that was keeping Demonic from being playable and rather strong all expansion until blizz stopped caring and gave us T21.

A shadow priest says the same here it could work well for dh.

A shadow priest that's arguing for something you, as per your previous words, consider boring.

And wc3 dh is fare away from wow dh. Or do we shoot instant chaos bold s with out gcd. I can't remember that I see a chaosbolt machine gun dh in legion.

Is it so far? Self immolation is there, Mana burning is there, being extremely fast is there, defensives basing on unnatural speed are there. Metamorphosis being a huge CD is there. Instant bolts with basically no cd? Rain from Above, you're welcome. All we're missing is friendly fire...

So what they have to do for a small rework?
Demonic appetite
If a soul spawn you don't have to pick it up. It flys to you. You get a buff stacks up 5 times if you reach 5 stacks you could use it and get fury plus the heal.
To remove random effect every chaos strike produce a soul and with 5 stack you could use it for x fury and x heal.

So instead of having a reactive proc, you're giving us a spell we just macro into every button we press and spam Chaos Strike only because nothing else can produce a soul. Great, you made an RNG fiesta talent even worse, because it lacks any fun factor while retaining only the boring parts.

Demonic
Eyebeam 8 sec meta, every chaos strike reduce the cd from eyebeam x seconds, if eyebeam hits more than 2 targets the cd gets reduced for x seconds for every target.

And once that becomes baseline, Meta is nuked to become extremely bad or our entire kit receives the Living Bomb treatment because of exponential scaling and positive feedback loops. Thanks but no thanks.

Than I would change demon blades
Replace demons bite
Passiv you gain x fury every second.
No proc no random.

Delete demon's bite, become an energy user. Why won't you pick a rogue or monk in that case instead? Or feral. Literally become any other leather wearing class and lose the last distinction in how you generate.

10% leech isn't that great if hunter get that only with pick a utility pet.

And it's definitely being changed since Marksmanship is the most popular spec of Hunter and it won't be able to benefit from these little things at all (I await the shitstorm eagerly).
Not to mention pet damage doesn't proc leech, so their healing is really crippled compared to ours, even though the spreadsheet Leech amount is equal.

Remember we are the only spec with no real option to heal us. Only meta 4 min CD.

Blade Dance jukes exist, Blur precasts exist, Netherwalk exists, Baseline Meta leech exists, Meta invincibility frames exist. Souls exist. We have PLENTY of tools, but surprisingly barely anyone seems to be using them. The only place we need a little nudge is arena, we're damage bots there.

Apologies if I sounded pissy, but you're yet another person who (probably) genuinely thinks their changes would help while they absolutely would hurl us into the abyss of being impossible to tune and overnerfed, as well as RNG ridden to the point you might as well go to a casino.

BfA changes are really good, we just need some slight tuning on it, the 'base' kit at 110 will honestly be one of the best ones if it remains as is, it is easy to get into, surprisingly difficult to master for most, and really fun even if you don't really know how to play.

[Deleted]

@Sendula Honestly do not understand where you get that dark slash adds complexity. You press it once every 8 seconds to maintain a buff for a boring flat %dmg increase, that is the complete opposite of complexity.

You're under the idea that because it's blizzard making these choices that they know what they are doing. It is not blizzard of old, the people who made wow no longer work on wow, this is a full new team and the past few expansions have shown they are terrible at design/ too used to making stuff like diablo 3.

Also, you give off the idea that you think players always know less than the blizz devs about what is best for a class direction because the player doesn't work for blizz and it is a bit nieve, the current lead dev team were literally hired by blizz during wows creation purely because they were big deal players in previous mmos, they had input but not control, ever since they have been given control classes have became way more simplified to the point you have like 4 abilities in a rotation with 1 of them being used about 60%+ of the time and doing about the same % of your damage.
It honestly wouldn't surprise me that if we were suggesting bfa changes while blizz had made legion dh with our suggestions you would be arguing for blizz still.

Blizzard are not perfect and have proven they can get it horribly wrong, they made wod, legion and d3 afterall.

[Deleted]

@Clearcut I get that Dark Slash adds complexity because, as you haven't yet noticed, it has a 20 seconds cooldown and you don't want to mindlessly press it once it gets of cooldown. At least some minimal pooling would be beneficial. I ain't saying Dark Slash suddenly makes playing DH rocket science, it adds just a little more complexity because you should at least try to pool before that thing is off cooldown.

I'm not a goddamn white knight, I've seen Blizzard fail spectacularly on multiple fronts, I know they aren't the be all end all source of infinite wisdom, hell, I'm still sort of mad about how they overtuned Nemesis to appease people wanting the best numbers but putting in zero effort. I genuinely like the BfA rework though, it just clicks. Sure, you might dislike it, you might think it is shallow, not complex enough and was better in *insert expansion name*, but just as it is in my case, that's a personal opinion.

I don't think I've ever said players know less, a few players are excellent theorycrafters and can/should influence Blizzard to improve the design wherever possible.
I simply don't believe that people suggesting changes that are actually creating even more problems they intended to avoid once you get out of the vacuum space of a talent/ability description have thought their ideas through. Before trying to influence design, as least try to look at it from a wider perspective than I HATE RNG or I WANT THIS MECHANIC ADDED/GONE. Removal of Life Tap for warlocks is a great example here. They happily traded what instant casts they had because they thought it was stupid. Sometimes, it won't work unless you rebuild some core concepts from the ground (or simply won't work at all) and that takes lots of resources that are in limited supply.

[Skayth]

As it is, i like how it is shaping up to be, but there are multiple things I would change.

First thing I would do is make Demon's Bite and Demon Blades into a single spell. Make it so that demon's bite strike the target and you gain X amount of fury from the initial strike, and then also gives you the Demon Blades buff. Goes on cd for 6-to 8 seconds, and the Demon blade buff last 8-to 10 seconds. This will make our spec less spammy, and will get rid of the Demon Blades talent.

Second, I would make Demonic Baseline and then buff and nerf accordingly. Thematically, I think this make us far more demon huntery spec wise.

Third, I would make Metamorphosis a 3 minute cooldown.

As for the talents:
Row 1 We all know everyone is going to take either fel blade or blind fury (for aoe) with Demonic Appetite being a dead talent, specially since we do not have the ability to have souls reduce cds on eyebeam, so compensate, i would add Blade Dance to Demonic Appetite, with it having a 100% chance of spawning a soul.

Row 2 Insatiable Hunger, I would make it give a little more fury but take away the cd on my revamped Demon's bite while also getting rid of the Demon Blades buff (back to regular old demons bite for those that like it). 2nd Talent would be Singed Blades, where Chaos strike has chance to give your next Demon's Bite increased damage and increased fury generation in the initial strike and throughout the buff. Immolation aura, Id simply decrease the cd down to 15 or 20 seconds.

Row 3 and 4 All fine by me

Row 5, Get rid of Cycle of hatred, introduce Chaotic Glaive, throw glaive no longer ricochets to another target, does X chaos damage and now burns the Target for X chaos damage for 4 Seconds. (bloodlet, but they clearly dont want the glaive to dot up multiple targets, hence why it was cut, and its on a row meant for st.) Wish first blood was baseline, but w/e, id probably also introduce the 4set of tos to it, where it gives back X fury as well, as it will be at a disadvantage to the other 2. And since people like Dark Slash, they can keep it, but I am not a fan of it at all since all it does is set up "use this when everything procs."

Row 6 is w/e

Row 7 Cut both Demonic (since it would now be baked into the spec) and Nemesis. Momentum can have its thing. The First talent would be Fel Uncontained, you seep out the fury and chaotic energies from within to burn everything around you for X amount of Chaos damage for 8 seconds, and at the end, you let off an explosion of chaos damage, where everything you used fury on during those 8 seconds amounts to more damage at the end with bare minimum of the Fel Uncontained's own damage. Has a 30 second cd. (think Fury of the illidari with its gold trait). 2nd talent would be Demon Unbound. A 1 min cd, that lasts for 20 to 30 seconds, where your demon from within is seeps out of you, a shadowy apparation of its true form and power (lore wise so you can eyebeam into meta or use meta while also having this out), acting like a guardian pet/minion, and begins attacking whatever enemy you are attacking, using the same attacks as you (or it could have it's own abilities).

[Deleted]

God dammit. DH is all about being the uncontrollable, erratic, hyper thing containing a demon inside. Old demo was 100% control. Neither playstyles or themes are compatible.

Also, if you didn't check BfA trees, you can talent into additional complexity on top of the baseline one just so that you have it more difficult than the other guy. Or have you already mastered managing Felblade and its resets, Immolation Aura, Fel Barrage, Dark Slash, Fel Rush, Vengeful Retreat and Eye Beam being kept on cooldown while maximizing DPS AND not overcapping fury at all with proper pooling and spending at the right time?

Sry but Dark slash is the same shit window option they bring to arms warrior. Use ability X if you near cap fury and off cds run. I know some other things play a roll but you can say. Fury higher than 80% off cds Meta and Darkslash gg.
Immolation aura is only fury like vengful.

Maybe for some player its enough to look at fury and hold up a buff and debuff.
But for a player like me that plays since classic
Mage (classic, Bc Gladi and Sunwell server first)
Warrior in Arena higher than 2k in Wotlk, Cata.
Raids top 20 in Cata and Wotlk its not that hard to master. (MoP was a bad addon also WoD i hate them and so i play only casual since the end of cata)
Yes their are player with a lot more skill than me and more progress xp, but my xp is enough to say look that you dont loose fury because of fails and time some buffs and debuffs is not complex its a boring mechanic.

Burning CDs and then doing nothing was shit, in Legion most specs weren't difficult at all and that's changing so that you won't need to feel bad.
.

So why you wish that talents again in BfA?
Dark slash is the same shit like chaosblades or nemesis only with a shorter CD its the gameplay of CD stacking and not a good rotation or prio order why we cant get the same good rework like Demo locks or SV hunters?

Why would you bake in Raddons? It legitimately is THE ONLY thing that was keeping Demonic from being playable and rather strong all expansion until blizz stopped caring and gave us T21.

Why should Raddons stop Demonic to be playable ? The only reason for me why demonic wasnt that great are the t20 set boni and the bad stats to crit mastery and haste so we cant play it well ST

Raddons makes Demonic realy great in Contents with endless adds. But ST sucks.
If they let Eyebeam the old one out of beta and also Raddons like the same in beta everything would be great with demonic. But they nerfed the build to the ground in the end of the beta.

Is it so far? Self immolation is there, Mana burning is there, being extremely fast is there, defensives basing on unnatural speed are there. Metamorphosis being a huge CD is there. Instant bolts with basically no cd? Rain from Above, you're welcome. All we're missing is friendly fire...

Realy Mana burn is a broken desing with no use in arena since nerf to the ground. It calls mana burns but doesnt burn mana XD
Maybe they should give us the real mana burn. Burn x% enemy mana and deals x Damage for every % mana burn. 1 min cd.
Extremely fast ? Monks rogues druid all Leather Chars are faster in arena than us. Because they can remove roots on them have a port blink etc.
We have 2 fel rush same like chi torpedo and we have vengeful but that isnt that range like the sprint and the port and the Flying Serpent Kick.
But we call the fastes class ingame because of what? A stupid movement boost on mastery than brings nothing in rated PVP .
We are the only class that has to skill slow to stay sticky (druids can remove every slow and roots etc)
Immolation aura comes with a talent in BfA that maybe is not use able if its worse than the other 2 talents in X fury in x sec.
Rain from Above the free pvp kill talent for every mage warlock or the free heal talent for all healers in arena. The only good thing on it is against bad enemy and as def cd against some melees (not dks because they could grip you back) this talent and the spam chaosbolts on autohitspeed in Wc3 isnt the same sry.

Sry but why you dont give DH the same cool abilitys and tools like in HotS?

Delete demon's bite, become an energy user. Why won't you pick a rogue or monk in that case instead? Or feral. Literally become any other leather wearing class and lose the last distinction in how you generate.

I hate to play Demons blade passiv resource isnt my thing. But in Meta it works a lot better than spam Demons bite because of the GCD.

Maybe a better option is to remove Demons Bite from the GCD if Meta is up. Its ultra Spam like Warrior in Wotlk and early Cata but its okay and bring it on the same line with Demonsblade if a Window spec with 1 meta is the best way to go in BfA.

And it's definitely being changed since Marksmanship is the most popular spec of Hunter and it won't be able to benefit from these little things at all (I await the shitstorm eagerly).
Not to mention pet damage doesn't proc leech, so their healing is really crippled compared to ours, even though the spreadsheet Leech amount is equal.


Blade Dance jukes exist, Blur precasts exist, Netherwalk exists, Baseline Meta leech exists, Meta invincibility frames exist. Souls exist. We have PLENTY of tools, but surprisingly barely anyone seems to be using them. The only place we need a little nudge is arena, we're damage bots there.

Do you need more heal while Leveling ? i think the souls from dead minions are enough
In Pve grp content we dont need a good real only in some niche situations.
In pvp we need a good heal like you says and in arena we need more than a 3 mins MEta leech and some def cds like every other class has .
Blur is ok
Netherwalk is a bad version of Bubble from rets or iceblock from mage. Yeah we could run but we have to spec in it and can do nothing while this talents runs. So not that great. Shaman have early beta or alpha the same shit talent and gets: you can do nothing while aktive debuff removed before it goes live.

So whats your problem with a heal for us

Marksman can use it to if they loose a bit damage for utility.
And again in PVE they dont need it and in pvp i think every hunter will use a pet in BfA.

Apologies if I sounded pissy, but you're yet another person who (probably) genuinely thinks their changes would help while they absolutely would hurl us into the abyss of being impossible to tune and overnerfed, as well as RNG ridden to the point you might as well go to a casino.

BfA changes are really good, we just need some slight tuning on it, the 'base' kit at 110 will honestly be one of the best ones if it remains as is, it is easy to get into, surprisingly difficult to master for most, and really fun even if you don't really know how to play.

Whats your problem with Demonic and a real fast play style?
Why you hate the old Demonic Warlock for me it could be easy baked into DH in BfA. I think its less work than the full rework from SV Hunters and or Locks.

It worked well with the Fantasy it works well with a lot talents and is easier to balance than a ultra off CD that is our Damage and SV talent in some situations.


For me it is okay if they remove thinks like Demonsblade, Nemesis, this talents dont fit for me to DH.
Felblade fits or me to the class and should be baseline.

DH should be faster than everything else.
Not only from the movement.
It should need a realy fast Prio order or Rotation. Order would be better.
You should go fast in the fight and go out wiht vengeful use 2 or 3 abiltys on range [felbarrage (Legion version), Mana burn (WC3 version) Throw Glaive] and go in again with fel rush and felblade.
Felblade should also reset with every chaos damage you deal. maybe nerf the damage and fury but it should work as a gap deleter than a fury gainer.

For me DH should have the same feeling as DH in HotS, or Warrior in Wotlk, cata a realy fast spec from the rotation spami with some CDs to use in the right moment but realy fast. Not because of procs procs are random shit. Because of the low GCD from some abilitys or because of the fast rotation itself

[Unholyground]

this is only pve

In pvp Havoc isnt in a good spot atm. We loose our ae stun, imprison is a 1 min cd, 70% leech talent goes down to 10% leech and 10% in meta,
Demonic build gets a huge nerf, Demonic apetite spawn souls but souls dont reduce the Cd from eyebeam, plus Demonic is in the same row like nemesis, and demonic apetite is in the same row with felblade and Blind fury.
Also we loose the heal from Demonic apetite
Felblade is stil a talent.

VDH are still good, but in Mythik plus they are gods atm and also in raids still playable in every encounter.
And wtf why Havoc gets more ways for AoE? We have still blade dance and Eyebeam or and yes sry the new aura but we loose one charge of glaive throw and we loose bloodlet as a talent for ae dots.
So:
Bloodlet loose
Eyebeam CD reduce with souls loose and no legy cd reduce
Firstblood dark slash both st talents
Train of ruin Fel barrage fel mastery all 3 Ae talents in one row

So why we getting more ways for AoE
We can only choose 1 out of 3. in Legion we have Felbarrage Fel mastery blood let or chaoscleve, so 3 out of 4 if you like to spec only AoE
Felbarrage gets also nerfed its a melee AoE attack in Bfa plus no CD reduce passive. And the channel time goes up from 2 to 3 sec.

So wtf why you say havoc is in a good spot?
The only good thing in BfA atm is that we get Dark Slash for Demon Reborn and Immolation Aura for Prepared (Prepared is only now a passiv from Momentum)

And you see it on every Bfa Video atm, Out of Meta (4 Min cd) we loose against every class and Demonic isnt playable because of the long cd. Yes the have to balance a lot on numbers its alpha. But you see our new Talent build isnt working that well for the class in pvp. Maybe in PVE raids with the new neck. But in pvp and in open pvp and lvl zones and dungeons it isnt that great. Atm Legion DH ist in a better spot for Mythik + raids and PVP i think.
Demonic works atm great in raid and Mythik+. And bloodlet works good in pvp. But in Bfa we loose both mechanics and get nothing to compare with this problems. A lot of other classes get their artifacts reworked in passives or talents we get nothing only 1 legy gets a rework in a bad talent. so wtf.

And Rets Shaman and Arms Warrior also get the same rework but they get a lot of cool choices from old abilitys.

PvP is dead anyways, even if they try to push it they will never make everyone happy or strike real balance.

[Deleted]

Where do I even begin...

Sry but Dark slash is the same shit window option they bring to arms warrior. Use ability X if you near cap fury and off cds run. I know some other things play a roll but you can say. Fury higher than 80% off cds Meta and Darkslash gg.
Immolation aura is only fury like vengful.

I never argued Dark Slash isn't a damage window. It is. I only argued against the notion that it supposedly is a maintenance debuff, which it isn't.
And yeah, the basic premise is to pool, then Dark Slash, then spend.

How does that affect CD stacking though? The duration and cooldown directly go against what you say, simply because Dark Slash gives you a damage window often enough to be a sustained damage type of talent...

Immolation Aura's fury is only like Vengeful Retreat. Everything else about the spells isn't, unless you ignore all the little things such as having a reason to position yourself better and hit with all the ticks, actually dealing non-token damage and being able to generate without a target to hit (as Vengeful has to deal damage to something to proc the buff, in case you didn't know).
So, yeah.

Maybe for some player its enough to look at fury and hold up a buff and debuff.
But for a player like me that plays since classic
Mage (classic, Bc Gladi and Sunwell server first)
Warrior in Arena higher than 2k in Wotlk, Cata.
Raids top 20 in Cata and Wotlk its not that hard to master. (MoP was a bad addon also WoD i hate them and so i play only casual since the end of cata)
Yes their are player with a lot more skill than me and more progress xp, but my xp is enough to say look that you dont loose fury because of fails and time some buffs and debuffs is not complex its a boring mechanic.

I applaud that you were a great player back then, but it's been over 7 years since you did any noncasual content if that's the case. Times change.
We have significantly less tools than we did back in the day, and we have to make do with the new ones. So, yeah, I believe running Immolation Aura and Vengeful Retreat while creating short damage windows with lots of possible refunds that might actually make spenders end up fury positive AND not overcapping might be a nice thing. Not rocket science, but a nice thing.

Just in case you ignored this the first time, if you truly find a spec boring, there are 23 more to try.

So why you wish that talents again in BfA?
Dark slash is the same shit like chaosblades or nemesis only with a shorter CD its the gameplay of CD stacking and not a good rotation or prio order why we cant get the same good rework like Demo locks or SV hunters?

Because they aren't? You are given choice, most importantly, and you can decide if you intend to keep complexity at a similiar level, increase it or decrease it.

You can turn the spec to 2 buttons, sure the damage will be trash but you can if you so wish. You can tune it up and have 7 spells to track and regularly cast while tracking your fury, as some spells are free or near free, while adding more procs that spice up the rotation, and you can add a reason to snipe low hp adds while you're at it. You can reduce or increase the complexity of your aoe abilities. You can decide to use your mobility abilities rotationally. That's my point, C H O I C E, I wanted choice and we have lots of it so far.

You absolutely DO NOT have to pick any of the 'cd stacking' talents, even though they're a far cry from that. Nemesis, I'll give you that, but Dark Slash is just a damage window not long enough to be worth calling a cd to stack. That's similiar to calling Colossus Smash a CD (well, the pre-BfA version).

The rework is, IN MY OPINION, good. It builds up on the spec we have without completely ruining it for people who like little complexity and thought process while playing, as well as properly tackling the problems of the Legion iteration.

Why should Raddons stop Demonic to be playable ? The only reason for me why demonic wasnt that great are the t20 set boni and the bad stats to crit mastery and haste so we cant play it well ST

Raddons makes Demonic realy great in Contents with endless adds. But ST sucks.
If they let Eyebeam the old one out of beta and also Raddons like the same in beta everything would be great with demonic. But they nerfed the build to the ground in the end of the beta.

You don't seem to realize if affected balance too much. Raddons was the reason Demonic meta had too high uptime to be properly tuned before our CDs to stack became overtuned as hell. Raddons was the reason Blizzard nerfed Eye Beam in beta. To clarify: Raddons makes you hyperscale with adds, it was THE reason why demonic got shafted with prolonging metas after invoking meta, because some people had 5min+ metas in arcway.

IF there was no Raddons, Demonic would've been easier to balance, but they went with it and it took a set bonus dedicated to Demonic and Eye Beam to make Demonic really shine on ST, as T19 was better suited to CB unless you had both Raddons and AOTHG, where they could be equal but CB required less to make it work.

Realy Mana burn is a broken desing with no use in arena since nerf to the ground. It calls mana burns but doesnt burn mana XD
Maybe they should give us the real mana burn. Burn x% enemy mana and deals x Damage for every % mana burn. 1 min cd.
Extremely fast ? Monks rogues druid all Leather Chars are faster in arena than us. Because they can remove roots on them have a port blink etc.
We have 2 fel rush same like chi torpedo and we have vengeful but that isnt that range like the sprint and the port and the Flying Serpent Kick.
But we call the fastes class ingame because of what? A stupid movement boost on mastery than brings nothing in rated PVP .
We are the only class that has to skill slow to stay sticky (druids can remove every slow and roots etc)
Immolation aura comes with a talent in BfA that maybe is not use able if its worse than the other 2 talents in X fury in x sec.

I know they are shit, you asked what similiarities we share with Warcraft 3 DH and I told you that almost everything is, in fact, similiar.
Don't mistake concepts (as all the things you're trying to deflect above I mentioned only as the DH concept that Blizzard sold them as) with tuning, buddy.

Immolation Aura might be trash if Demon Blades is stronger, but being able to generate without a target and while CC'd is a neat vision.

Rain from Above the free pvp kill talent for every mage warlock or the free heal talent for all healers in arena. The only good thing on it is against bad enemy and as def cd against some melees (not dks because they could grip you back) this talent and the spam chaosbolts on autohitspeed in Wc3 isnt the same sry.

Sry but why you dont give DH the same cool abilitys and tools like in HotS?

Again, you asked where do we enter meta and spam chaos bolts, we do in Rain from Above, tuning and balance aside that's exactly what we do. And you're grasping at the straw of it not being attack speed based. Jesus fuck.

What cool abilities and tools form HotS can we get, then? Because as far as I remember, Dive is basically Felblade, Sweeping Strike (or whatever the name was) is Fel Rush, Evasion is Blur and Meta is Meta. Hunt is a redheaded stepchild of really long ranged abilities, Felblade and Fel Eruption. We have all that and more, and talents help us build upon it, just like in HotS.

I hate to play Demons blade passiv resource isnt my thing. But in Meta it works a lot better than spam Demons bite because of the GCD.

Maybe a better option is to remove Demons Bite from the GCD if Meta is up. Its ultra Spam like Warrior in Wotlk and early Cata but its okay and bring it on the same line with Demonsblade if a Window spec with 1 meta is the best way to go in BfA.

Not only because of the GCD, but because Chaos Blades made your strongest period (basically quardupled damage) also have a higher chance to proc fury due to no natural white swing miss chance.

You remove Demon's Bite from the GCD and suddenly anything that's not Dark Slash Demonic doesn't deal ST damage because you will be able to pump out huge Chaos Strikes all the time there. We would be balanced around that. I'd rather everyone got Vengeful Retreat fury baseline as it's truly off-GCD if we had to forcibly choose something but I already can hear the shitstorm brewing, and the hisses of not wanting to use mobility in combat outside of repositioning because so many Demon Hunters want to be a warrior with purple rage...

So whats your problem with a heal for us

Further blurs the line between us and monks. Or us and rogues. Or us and ferals. I simply don't want to have 4 flavours and colors of the same shit, if I wanted to play a monk, I would've picked a monk.
Leech and souls are thematically perfect and having permanent leech will most likely work ok. Keep in mind that talented Leech is reduced to 40% in pvp, well it is 40% if talented in BfA so there's no reason to gut it even more.

Whats your problem with Demonic and a real fast play style?
Why you hate the old Demonic Warlock for me it could be easy baked into DH in BfA. I think its less work than the full rework from SV Hunters and or Locks.

How was old Demo Lock even remotely fast compared to T21 demonic where you spend over half the fight at or above 100% haste?
The playstyle being fast is something I WANT, if you hadn't noticed, it's the fact that so many of you are suggesting things that would SLOW US DOWN if you look beyond the tooltip. Why can't you try to see how it affects the rest of our toolkit before you start arguments about something that wouldn't even be balanceable, nor good design, with no idea if it would even play well to pay off for aforementioned reasons...

You think it could be baked in easily. Great. Show me how, because right now I'm led to believe that it would require not only numbers tuning but a rather big rework of how we operate. Being able to generate to full in 3 or less globals, entering Meta and dumping all the resource in 2 globals? I've seen lots of complaints about carpal tunnel problems already. Give people yet another thing to click every 5 goddamn seconds and you're bound to cause an avalanche of angry customers.

For me it is okay if they remove thinks like Demonsblade, Nemesis, this talents dont fit for me to DH.
Felblade fits or me to the class and should be baseline.

I agree they don't fit and could be cut. But the problem with Demon Blades is that many people like not having to press something all the time, and you fuck them over if you delete it. I guess we can agree Blizzard could kill Demon Blades with deliberate undertuning.

Nemesis is a can of worms and should be redesigned from scratch, but its current iteration gives you many downsides and I suppose is a fair tradeoff for being easy to use.

Felblade being baseline completely skews our generation and mobility unless you undertune it and remove the resets, in which case it becomes a Demon's Bite, but fire and with a frontflip.

DH should be faster than everything else.
Not only from the movement.
It should need a realy fast Prio order or Rotation. Order would be better.
You should go fast in the fight and go out wiht vengeful use 2 or 3 abiltys on range [felbarrage (Legion version), Mana burn (WC3 version) Throw Glaive] and go in again with fel rush and felblade.
Felblade should also reset with every chaos damage you deal. maybe nerf the damage and fury but it should work as a gap deleter than a fury gainer.

And it shapes up to be so, with HASTE being a dominant stat in BfA and generation not being thightly knit with AOTHG as well as crit.
The rotation in question may be different of course, but it will be even faster than it is now.

Btw, Felblade resets when you deal Chaos Damage, pair that with Trail of Ruin and you just murdered us in pvp because the banhammer would burrow us so deep underground we could have a nice talk with Nzoth while everyone else is playing the game.


Tell me, why are you so adamant on reworking things that can work well without even knowing how they play? Especially now that you're a casual, you shouldn't give two fucks if something deals 1 or 2% more dps if you find the other thing more fun to play...

[Deleted]

I think we wish the same for the class but maybe in diffrent skill option ?

Immolation Aura's fury is only like Vengeful Retreat. Everything else about the spells isn't, unless you ignore all the little things such as having a reason to position yourself better and hit with all the ticks, actually dealing non-token damage and being able to generate without a target to hit (as Vengeful has to deal damage to something to proc the buff, in case you didn't know).
So, yeah.

Remember in beta Vengeful also gave us fury without hiting something.

Before it goes live they bring a hotfix and say vengeful only regenerate fury if something gets hit.
The same will happen with the aura.
Wait till it goes live and you will see it.
In beta it feels so great to use it before fights to go in with a fury depo and not with a zero bar .

I applaud that you were a great player back then, but it's been over 7 years since you did any noncasual content if that's the case. Times change.
We have significantly less tools than we did back in the day, and we have to make do with the new ones. So, yeah, I believe running Immolation Aura and Vengeful Retreat while creating short damage windows with lots of possible refunds that might actually make spenders end up fury positive AND not overcapping might be a nice thing. Not rocket science, but a nice thing.

Just in case you ignored this the first time, if you truly find a spec boring, there are 23 more to try.

Especially now that you're a casual, you shouldn't give two fucks if something deals 1 or 2% more dps if you find the other thing more fun to play...

So maybe i tell it wrong, i play also MoP HC clear and Arena 2k but not the full addon only first and last content because of privat things i have to make a brake.
Also in WoD i clear all contents hc and nearly full Mythik, and i play 2k arena again.

But in both addons i dont go full hardcore with 7 raid days. Only 3. And pvp wasnt their for Gladi title because the mounts since Wotlk arent my thing.


I dont see me full casual only because i m not a 100% hardcore gamer since 3 addons. I dont think 90% are hardcore gamer maybe 5 or 10% or less.

1 or 2 % dont care about that but 10 or 20% its a lot.
And in Legion their was only one boring way to play in pvp , and in pve pre T21 its also on boring Bladedance build. In the mid of the addon they reduce the class more since momentum is worse than nemesis. (Im not a fan from momentum because movement use for dps is not a problem but you cant use 100% of this buff with all talents. You have to go on way to use it 100% )

Just in case you ignored this the first time, if you truly find a spec boring, there are 23 more to try.

its the class fantasy behind Demonhunter and Illidan that i like. Not the actual playstyle in pvp.

I play warrior monk mage dk hunter DH. But the fantasy behind dh is the best in wow for me.

Because they aren't? You are given choice, most importantly, and you can decide if you intend to keep complexity at a similiar level, increase it or decrease it.

You can turn the spec to 2 buttons, sure the damage will be trash but you can if you so wish. You can tune it up and have 7 spells to track and regularly cast while tracking your fury, as some spells are free or near free, while adding more procs that spice up the rotation, and you can add a reason to snipe low hp adds while you're at it. You can reduce or increase the complexity of your aoe abilities. You can decide to use your mobility abilities rotationally. That's my point, C H O I C E, I wanted choice and we have lots of it so far.

You absolutely DO NOT have to pick any of the 'cd stacking' talents, even though they're a far cry from that. Nemesis, I'll give you that, but Dark Slash is just a damage window not long enough to be worth calling a cd to stack. That's similiar to calling Colossus Smash a CD (well, the pre-BfA version).

The rework is, IN MY OPINION, good. It builds up on the spec we have without completely ruining it for people who like little complexity and thought process while playing, as well as properly tackling the problems of the Legion iteration.

I see your point of view and understand it but why this complex build cant be the demonic built with a full new meta build?

Maybe the Demo lock is the wrong choice but what is if the give us a set up of new abilitys while meta is up? Like rogues feral etc have while stealth or shadowdance is up?

Not only 2 abilitys change and for me the badest on the 2 is, that one of them was a talent in beta. Blade dance was design for that was felbarrage going to be in BfA.
Early alpha demonsbite and chaosstrike gets transform.

Why they cant switch eyebeam chaosstrike demonsbite bladedance and fel rush whil in meta ?
Eyebeam: While meta is aktiv the range is doubled or the ST damage is doubled or only a style upgrade the beam goes red
Demonsbite reg double the amount of fury gain
Fell rush: The range is doubled and you leaving behind a trail of flames for 5 sec. do x damage to enemys stand in.
chaosstrike the same like yet
Blade dance the same like yet

I agree they don't fit and could be cut. But the problem with Demon Blades is that many people like not having to press something all the time, and you fuck them over if you delete it. I guess we can agree Blizzard could kill Demon Blades with deliberate undertuning.

I think this is the greatest problem with the class. A lot casual loves the simple 3 button spec and love to see felblade bladedance demonsblade dps is the best spec for the class.

But is that not a problem every class has? Hunter flame them for the new mm and sv set up
Warrior flame because of loose reck

You will always have kids that flame since Vanilla someone is not happy.

But the class should not be designed around a grp of players. The class should be design around the Fantasy behind also. And illidan shows us a lot what the real power abilitys should be.
He use Eye beam to free him self not blade dance shit.

I know they are shit, you asked what similiarities we share with Warcraft 3 DH and I told you that almost everything is, in fact, similiar.
Don't mistake concepts (as all the things you're trying to deflect above I mentioned only as the DH concept that Blizzard sold them as) with tuning, buddy.

Immolation Aura might be trash if Demon Blades is stronger, but being able to generate without a target and while CC'd is a neat vision.




Again, you asked where do we enter meta and spam chaos bolts, we do in Rain from Above, tuning and balance aside that's exactly what we do. And you're grasping at the straw of it not being attack speed based. Jesus fuck.

What cool abilities and tools form HotS can we get, then? Because as far as I remember, Dive is basically Felblade, Sweeping Strike (or whatever the name was) is Fel Rush, Evasion is Blur and Meta is Meta. Hunt is a redheaded stepchild of really long ranged abilities, Felblade and Fel Eruption. We have all that and more, and talents help us build upon it, just like in HotS.


Further blurs the line between us and monks. Or us and rogues. Or us and ferals. I simply don't want to have 4 flavours and colors of the same shit, if I wanted to play a monk, I would've picked a monk.
Leech and souls are thematically perfect and having permanent leech will most likely work ok. Keep in mind that talented Leech is reduced to 40% in pvp, well it is 40% if talented in BfA so there's no reason to gut it even more.


.

Dive is felblade hm Yes and no. Dive is a ability not a Talent. And Dive teleports you to the target you flip to the back site thats Shadowstep not felblade.

Sweeping yes its fel rush

But Hunt ? Charge to the target stun it and do damage can be fel eruption but the movement part is missing.

Betrayers Thirst ? The passiv is complete missing
Basic Attacks heal for 30% AND !!! Reduce the CD of all abilitys by 1 sec.
This ability would fit great instead of the talent unleashed power or cycle of hatred.

Also the talents are missing like perma meta
Hunters onslaught 25% peram leech from all attacks.
Sweeping strike (fel rush ) reduce the CD of blur if you hit a target
Or Dive (felblade ) could be use on friendly targets?


Their is so much space for more cool and good things to bring with basic abilitys and talents.
Dont understand me wrong we get some of the abilitys but we get always a abilty that isnt that great like it could be.

Soul rending is the poor version of Hunters onslaught and Betrayers Thirst. The missing part is the CD reduce.

Yes i know 40% leech we have now in pvp. And yes it would be enough if blizz would get all selfheal lowerd to this lvl . But this isnt the case. My problem with this heal is pvp. Nothing else. We loose every 1 vs 1 if the enemy could bring our meta on cd or cc us in this time so we have zero option to heal. And the souls gets so hard nerfed in arena like stupid. In beta they heal for 300% of our hp and no i think less than 5%.

- - - Updated - - -

And it shapes up to be so, with HASTE being a dominant stat in BfA and generation not being thightly knit with AOTHG as well as crit.
The rotation in question may be different of course, but it will be even faster than it is now.

Atm i have no access to beta but i see a lot streams of Dh in alpha and your wrong, i see a lot of specs.
But it isnt faster while questing everything is finem but Dh vs open world quests never have problems.

Dh in Dungeons are not so great. The spec looks clunky not fast. Dark slash, momentum, demonic, Aura and the new fel barrage dont work smooth together it feels more clunky. Dark slash chaosstrike work well together the rest of the spec doesnt work so well together .

Maybe im wrong but atm you have to use Aura, Fel rush for the 6 sec damage bufff after 10 sec vengeful fel rush again and than after the 10 sec buff is up you have 10 sec with nothing.
Maybe they should buff aura for 160 fury over 20 sec or reduce the cd to 20 sec.

[Deleted]

@Sendula i never got a notification for that mention, my apologies i must have missed the 20 second cooldown on dark slash. It doesnt change anything though really, instead of every 8 sec you cast it every 20 sec. Cap fury, slash, dump fury, repeat.

Its basically colossus smash for demon hunters, something i have grown to hate on arms (and i really really tried to like arms before switching to dh) and mm hunter (which is extrememly unpopular with most hunters and they are now removing it from hunter as such)

Give me mini voidform demonic build over colossus smash any day.

[Musta]

I hate DPS windows mechanics for classes that are cleary not about it. Plus, the talents are like all scattered. Demonic is dead, we have our leggo shoulders as a talent, Demons bite and demon blades are still unchanged. Theres no sinergy or anything. I really hope this gets a lot of interaction, because looks like dogshit atm

[Zyky]

Guess those changes don't really effect me since I PvE and PvP as VDH.


As for VDHs in M+, I think they will be getting a bit of a nerf there in BfA. They are going to lose 10% leech from SB and 15% leech from fire damage which are the 2 main things making them immortal on trash packs right now.

From what I'm seeing VDH will be getting a raid tanking buff with the soul frag buff and a slight M+ nerf to survivability due to losing a lot of leech.

Keep in mind that souls now heal based on damage you take, so the mini leech isn't going to mean much in terms of souls healing so much.

[Saverem]

Keep in mind that souls now heal based on damage you take, so the mini leech isn't going to mean much in terms of souls healing so much.

Didn't you read what you quoted? You literally just parroted what I said.

[Zyky]

Didn't you read what you quoted? You literally just parroted what I said.

You're arguing that they're not going to be immortal, I'm arguing that they're going to be harder to kill on trash pulls.

[Saverem]

You're arguing that they're not going to be immortal, I'm arguing that they're going to be harder to kill on trash pulls.

I think they'll be weaker on big trash pulls. The leach we have now is amazing and only scales with the more mobs there are. It's why Mione can solo +18s and BDKs, which are supposedly better at self healing, can't.

[Zyky]

I think they'll be weaker on big trash pulls. The leach we have now is amazing and only scales with the more mobs there are. It's why Mione can solo +18s and BDKs, which are supposedly better at self healing, can't.

That isn't why he can solo +18s, he can solo +18s because he can cheese everything with Sigil of Misery, if you watch his videos he can only solo them because of Sigil not breaking from Immolation Aura. He does it several times in all his videos and has done in ever since the start of the expansion. That isn't Spirit Bomb being OP because he was doing it prior to Spirit Bomb being a thing. This is going to be a huge buff to every DH tank that isn't cheesing things with a gimmick, which is the majority of the playerbase.

[Saverem]

That isn't why he can solo +18s, he can solo +18s because he can cheese everything with Sigil of Misery, if you watch his videos he can only solo them because of Sigil not breaking from Immolation Aura. He does it several times in all his videos and has done in ever since the start of the expansion. That isn't Spirit Bomb being OP because he was doing it prior to Spirit Bomb being a thing. This is going to be a huge buff to every DH tank that isn't cheesing things with a gimmick, which is the majority of the playerbase.

I disagree. Mostly because you're using some banned guy to stroke your ego as a signature. Can't trust ya.

INFRACTION

[Deleted]

I think we wish the same for the class but maybe in diffrent skill option ?

Remember in beta Vengeful also gave us fury without hiting something.

Before it goes live they bring a hotfix and say vengeful only regenerate fury if something gets hit.
The same will happen with the aura.
Wait till it goes live and you will see it.
In beta it feels so great to use it before fights to go in with a fury depo and not with a zero bar .

Different skill as in different spells? Perhaps. I want the class to have meaningful optional difficulty tied to it, so that our damage in all kinds of situations is justified by sheer difficulty to pull it off alone, compared to other specs, but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

There's no real point in hotfixing this. Entering a boss fight lowers your fury to 20 right now, and since Vengeance no longer needs to spend on Demon Spikes, I'd wager they'll reduce it to 0. The real gain is in pvp, and world content at times. And m+ with precast shenanigans.

And in Legion their was only one boring way to play in pvp , and in pve pre T21 its also on boring Bladedance build. In the mid of the addon they reduce the class more since momentum is worse than nemesis. (Im not a fan from momentum because movement use for dps is not a problem but you cant use 100% of this buff with all talents. You have to go on way to use it 100% )

Only one? You could go momentum fel barrage for sustained, or nemesis cb for burst windows if the specs you played with had better synergy with such a strat (holy pala comes to mind). I've got to 2k rating on my DH a few times, I guess I know what I'm talking about.

Pve pre T21 is basically whatever, but you can also use Bloodlet, you can use Momentum with Fel Mastery and Prepared, most certainly can use anything you see fit if not wearing tier sets.

Nemesis is poor design, but Momentum will be much better now that only Fel Rush opens the window and only Vengeful Retreat generates. You won't need to spend abundant fury before starting the burst window. Makes it easier to use, easy enough that people shouldn't complain about Momentum being difficult (hell, you'll be able to do the Retreat + Rush combo casuals seem to love so much without wasting DPS).

its the class fantasy behind Demonhunter and Illidan that i like. Not the actual playstyle in pvp

Same for me, which is why I'd rather the class doesn't become something I consider an abomination of sewn bad design and ideas that were good in theory.

I see your point of view and understand it but why this complex build cant be the demonic built with a full new meta build?

Maybe the Demo lock is the wrong choice but what is if the give us a set up of new abilitys while meta is up? Like rogues feral etc have while stealth or shadowdance is up?

If you do that, you immediately have to tone down Metamorphosis (which kinda nullifies the point of it giving us more in the first place) or the base kit - how many times have you seen people complaining about our damage out of meta/cooldowns already?

I think this is the greatest problem with the class. A lot casual loves the simple 3 button spec and love to see felblade bladedance demonsblade dps is the best spec for the class.

This is the problem of many, many specs in Legion already but we're in luck - people are leaving the class in droves (after we stopped being top tier and had a huge gameplay style change), so there's the possibility they'll keep it as close to the class fantasy as possible. But yeah, you can actually reduce the spec to Eye Beam, Chaos Strike and Throw Glaive as filler in BfA, so there should be no problems for the ultracasual, takin'-it-slow playerbase.

But the class should not be designed around a grp of players.

Shame that people wanting Havoc to be more difficult and less RNG-ridden are a group as well, but I get what you mean. Well, in my opinion, talent choices dumbing down or increasing complexity are a perfect solution.

And illidan shows us a lot what the real power abilitys should be.
He use Eye beam to free him self not blade dance shit.

Honestly, being cleansed and immune to CC while Eye Beaming sounds like a cool PVP talent.

Betrayers Thirst ? The passiv is complete missing
Basic Attacks heal for 30% AND !!! Reduce the CD of all abilitys by 1 sec.
This ability would fit great instead of the talent unleashed power or cycle of hatred.

Unleashed Power is pure utility, can't happen. As for Cycle of Hatred, what's the point of replacing it. Sure, getting some CDR after you get a refund sounds kinda boring and 100% passive, but getting some CDR after you auto attack is... even less enticing since it would happen all the time.

Also the talents are missing like perma meta
Hunters onslaught 25% peram leech from all attacks.
Sweeping strike (fel rush ) reduce the CD of blur if you hit a target
Or Dive (felblade ) could be use on friendly targets?

I admit, talents like that are missing. But you know why some aren't here and they probably will never be.
Perma Metamorphosis = neutered Metamorphosis, please no.
25% leech means anything that can't oneshot us probably won't kill us, especially if you go for more sustained damage.
Fel Rush reducing CD of Blur actually sounds kinda neat, but there's the risk of 'BUT I DON'T WANNA USE MY MOBILITY FOR SOMETHING ELSE THAN MOVING WHEN I WANT OMG STUPID DESIGN' so we ended up with Glimpse in PVP.
Using damaging abilities on allies (without the damage) would also be met with crying about accidentally losing dps. We both know it. People are predictable.

Atm i have no access to beta but i see a lot streams of Dh in alpha and your wrong, i see a lot of specs.
But it isnt faster while questing everything is finem but Dh vs open world quests never have problems.

Dh in Dungeons are not so great. The spec looks clunky not fast. Dark slash, momentum, demonic, Aura and the new fel barrage dont work smooth together it feels more clunky. Dark slash chaosstrike work well together the rest of the spec doesnt work so well together .

Maybe im wrong but atm you have to use Aura, Fel rush for the 6 sec damage bufff after 10 sec vengeful fel rush again and than after the 10 sec buff is up you have 10 sec with nothing.
Maybe they should buff aura for 160 fury over 20 sec or reduce the cd to 20 sec.

I watched some streams as well and I wanted to gouge my eyes out. I realize most people don't play perfectly but so many Demon Hunter alpha players are making basic mistakes, plenty of them. Casting Blade Dance on single target when it's painfully obvious Chaos Strike has a better damage/fury ratio. Casting Throw Glaive on ST in melee range while playing non-Demon Blades. Not chaining generators (Immolation Aura and Momentum's Vengeful Retreat can be used simultaneously).
Replacing every single item with crit and losing tons of haste/mastery because of 0 research.
No shit the spec looks clunky if the people playing it are barely in the green parses territory.

It doesn't feel faster than today's DH because of T21's 4P bonus, that's pretty much the only reason.

A few corrections: Momentum and Demonic are on the same row and without Momentum there is 0 reason to use mobility for anything but actually moving. That's one basic mistake of the streamers. Dark Slash works smoothly with Demonic if you hold it and cast it only after Eye Beam finishes or with Momentum (at least for now, since Vengeful Retreat's CD doesn't scale down with haste, while it most definitely should so that the talent isn't absolute dumpster fire once we get some haste) when paired with VR, on cooldown.
Immolation Aura doesn't work with Demonic well because they desync, and you either get fury when you don't need it or you get too much at the same time (getting not 105 but 130 fury while Eye Beaming, but you just wasted 25 extra fury since Blind Fury overcaps you by itself).
Fel Barrage in its current iteration is basically mobile FotI, so I fail to see its clunkiness. It just... is. Happens every 60 seconds. You can easily set up for that.

The ideal opener would be Fel Rush, Aura + VR, Barrage and Eye Beam. You can fit it all inside a 6s window.

Immolation Aura is already the most powerful option in the row unless you manage to get somewhere around 150+% haste, where Demon Blades starts to overtake it.

@Sendula i never got a notification for that mention, my apologies i must have missed the 20 second cooldown on dark slash. It doesnt change anything though really, instead of every 8 sec you cast it every 20 sec. Cap fury, slash, dump fury, repeat.

Its basically colossus smash for demon hunters, something i have grown to hate on arms (and i really really tried to like arms before switching to dh) and mm hunter (which is extrememly unpopular with most hunters and they are now removing it from hunter as such)

Give me mini voidform demonic build over colossus smash any day.

No need to apologize. I suppose we just like different designs. I don't mind the Colossus Smash gameplay, we had it since Legion launch day, first with Momentum, then with stacked CDs, and now while in Demonic meta, because we deal absolutely crap damage while not buffed by T21 Eye Beam.

I hate DPS windows mechanics for classes that are cleary not about it. Plus, the talents are like all scattered. Demonic is dead, we have our leggo shoulders as a talent, Demons bite and demon blades are still unchanged. Theres no sinergy or anything. I really hope this gets a lot of interaction, because looks like dogshit atm

DH was about DPS windows since Legion launched. Momentum, CB+Nemesis+Meta, T21 EB Demonic, pick your poison.
Demonic isn't dead, not at all. Now that souls don't reduce EB CD and Raddons is gone, it can be properly balanced without fear of hyperscaling under some conditions.

Demon's Bite, what's wrong about it?
Demon Blades will rightfully be the '3rd best' option in the tier now that you either pick it or Anger of the Half Giants talent.

Care to elaborate what looks like dogshit?