Heaven and Hell in WoW - what are they and who rules them?

[willtron]

So numerous references are made to both heaven and hell in WoW.

- Uther telling Arthas to go to hell.
- Sylvanas being tortured in hell after she commits suicide.
- The quest in Icecrown where you help the solider and eventually the light takes him.

Ultimately everything we see in WoW that's energy based is derived from some iteration of a plane, so based on what we know one would assume that heaven is a plane of light and hell is a plane of shadow or void. (With the exception of several species who have their own "rules" such as Vrykul culture)

Does this mean there is one ultimate being ruling over these planes, al a Ragnaros or Al'Akir - essentially leading to a God and Satan type character within the light and the void.

The Pantheon are essentially our creators and created everything we know, so there is a disconnection between a creator such as god and the deity of good.

[cparle87]

One point you're missing is that the Pantheon is/was the foremost faction in the arcane plane, not the holy/light one. Closest thing we've seen to a holy/light diety is Xe'ra the Prime Naaru and she was by no means nice, or all that powerful.

[Auxis]

Well, there is definitely the Shadowlands, where people go when they die. When us, the players, die, we go to a sort of purgatory/upper floor of the Shadowlands - but there are much more terrifying areas in it; such as where the draenei girl went with the shadow-ghouls encroaching upon her. Even Daelin Proudmoore's soul was in the Shadowlands, as revealed in Legion.

At the same time, there seems to be a 'good' after life, as the light offered to take her to a good afterlife.

[willtron]

One point you're missing is that the Pantheon is/was the foremost faction in the arcane plane, not the holy/light one. Closest thing we've seen to a holy/light diety is Xe'ra the Prime Naaru and she was by no means nice, or all that powerful.

I never made that connection though, merely that there is a distinction between the creators and a deity of good

[Pandragon]

Hell in Warcraft is actually the Twisting Nether. Sylvanas didn't go to hell when she killed herself, she went to a place of void.

[willtron]

Hell in Warcraft is actually the Twisting Nether.

That's been retconned.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Hell in Warcraft is actually the Twisting Nether. Sylvanas didn't go to hell when she killed herself, she went to a place of void.

void =/= twisting nether

Shadowlands sounds distinct from the hell that Sylvanas experiences. When we go there to ress it doesn't look like a place of torment, merely desolate and empty. It's possible that Yogg Saron had a hand in what she saw.

[The5thVegetable]

The simple answer is, we don't know. some kind of afterlife is definitely implied to exist, even if just the shadowlands, but even information on the shadowlands is sparse at best.

Heaven and Hell are presumably simply theological concepts that exists within the world, most likely with origins in beliefs in the Holy Light- but we don't know for certain. If anything, any references to either of these places are mainly in dialouge purely because the writers decided to use those words in the same way that we use them, without any particular consideration for how it relates to lore.

[Lupinemancer]

I think it has been established that the Shadowlands is the default afterlife in the Warcraft Universe, but there are also others, sch as the light, and the Emerald Dream.
But we don't really know a whole lot, and to be honest, I think this is a point Blizzard should adress in the future, cuz I'm curious as hell.

[Shampro]

Afterlife and Elune are the two biggest ??? in the Lore right now. There's not much to discuss because we don't know, and what we know is contradictory or, better said, different in different situations.

[Osiria]

Depends on what you call afterlife. Being an undead, demon or spirit is afterlife and it exists there.

If you're talking about the christian idea of heaven or hell, God or Satan, those are just childish notions. It's a sense that there's one absolutely right, one absolutely wrong and you just get magically rewarded or punished based on that and there are no injustice ever, no person being sent to hell unfairly, no evil person being sent to heaven. Not to mention, that Satan is supposedly this weak being compared to God but he does nothing about him, which turns the whole thing into a joke. And that, is without taking into account that much of that is symbolic (Satan never had anything to do with a literaly being).

In WoW, that's not how it works. Your soul will suffer and be damned regardless of your actions. Evil beings can get away with everything if it's possible. It all seems to be more of a "physics" thing, than moral thing. For example, if you get turned into a demon or undead, something happens to you, if you're the embodiment of light or worships Elune accordingly, something else happens to you.

Btw, Elune seems to be the only real deity in WoW universe. Maybe the Void Lords can be considered similar deities too, but the thing about Elune is that, well, she's like the moon, she changes and is made of both shadow and light.

Infracted.

[YouWillAllAnswerToSithis]

Rather than saying Heaven or Hell. I'd say heaven or hell. What place of paradise is a heaven? Elune's whereabouts and place of comfort. The Emerald Dream, at least the good parts left. There are many places that can be considered a heaven. For hell, where is one's soul to suffer? The Shadowlands/places affected by the Void, the Twisting Nether, Khadgar's home. Any place can be considered a heaven or a hell, depending on the reality of each meaning and if you actually call it your heaven or hell.

[willtron]

Depends on what you call afterlife. Being an undead, demon or spirit is afterlife and it exists there.

Thats a temporary state though.

If you're talking about the christian idea of heaven or hell, God or Satan, those are just childish notions. It's a sense that there's one absolutely right, one absolutely wrong and you just get magically rewarded or punished based on that and there are no injustice ever, no person being sent to hell unfairly, no evil person being sent to heaven. Not to mention, that Satan is supposedly this weak being compared to God but he does nothing about him, which turns the whole thing into a joke. And that, is without taking into account that much of that is symbolic (Satan never had anything to do with a literaly being).

I was using god and the devil as a parallel to the real world, this one deity that rules over the entire realm. Like ragnaros and the fire plane for example. Not so much towards the actual faith and morals side of it all.

In WoW, that's not how it works. Your soul will suffer and be damned regardless of your actions. Evil beings can get away with everything if it's possible. It all seems to be more of a "physics" thing, than moral thing. For example, if you get turned into a demon or undead, something happens to you, if you're the embodiment of light or worships Elune accordingly, something else happens to you.

But then that doesn't really address what it is that is the ruler of these planes. Being turned into a Demon or Undead doesn't really work as they can still die.

Btw, Elune seems to be the only real deity in WoW universe. Maybe the Void Lords can be considered similar deities too, but the thing about Elune is that, well, she's like the moon, she changes and is made of both shadow and light.

Depends how you define it. You could argue Helya, the elemental lords, the pantheon are all deities too.

[StationaryHawk]

Ultimately everything we see in WoW that's energy based is derived from some iteration of a plane, so based on what we know one would assume that heaven is a plane of light and hell is a plane of shadow or void. (With the exception of several species who have their own "rules" such as Vrykul culture)

Does this mean there is one ultimate being ruling over these planes, al a Ragnaros or Al'Akir - essentially leading to a God and Satan type character within the light and the void.

The Pantheon are essentially our creators and created everything we know, so there is a disconnection between a creator such as god and the deity of good.

Worth noting that the Elemental Plane is an artificial construction, and not the source of the elements.

The Pantheon are also not the creators of everything we know and, despite having played a heavy role in Azeroth's current state, wouldn't place them on that scale. Perhaps pre-Chronicle, and pre-Legion, but we know now they're simply powerful entities.

As far as whether the Light/Void has one overarching deity, that's doubtful. Blizzard would have to conjure up something higher on the food chain than the Void Lords. Granted, they did that very thing to the Old Gods when Void Lords became a thing, so anything's possible.

[cparle87]

I never made that connection though, merely that there is a distinction between the creators and a deity of good

"so there is a disconnection between a creator such as god and the deity of good."

In LotR mythos for instance the dwarves were not created by the 'big good/God' creator entity the other races were, but by the demi-god blacksmith/crafting god. Similar thing here. Titans were the blacksmith/crafting gods of the arcane who made many playable races, not the standard light/good/holy/God entity that has not been revealed yet.

[Linkedblade]

They are similar to the judeochristian counterparts, just remove Jesus. Heaven is an afterlife paradise. Hell is eternal damnation.

[VyersReaver]

One point you're missing is that the Pantheon is/was the foremost faction in the arcane plane, not the holy/light one. Closest thing we've seen to a holy/light diety is Xe'ra the Prime Naaru and she was by no means nice, or all that powerful.

In RL Christianity not all angels are supposed to be "nice".

[Aucald]

Let's pivot away from real-world religious discussion or examples as that is a forbidden topic for the forums - keep the discussion grounded in the fantasy context of WoW.

[Destinas]

The closest universal afterlife is the Shadowlands. The Halls of Valor and Helheim are somewhat alternate versions, controlled by Odyn and Helya - their Val'kyr actually travel to and from the Shadowlands as well. However, those two alternate afterlives are (mostly) for Vrykul, chosen specifically by Odyn and/or Helya - with the exception of whomever they deem worthy themselves (even Tuskarr). That seems to be the only Titan-like "heaven" or "hell" - it's not mentioned if anything like that exists for any other Titanic creation, though. There's no mention of Tyr's soul, or where it wound up. The Titans themselves just kind of wandered around without bodies after Sargeras killed them, leaving Eonar to go to the planet Elunaria to regenerate.

Otherwise, souls are taken by the Light or the Void. We see this in Icecrown when Bridenbrad is taken by the Light via three Naaru (A'dal, K'uri, and M'ori). Prime Naaru also reside in the Shadowlands, it seems. However, we also see souls controlled and eaten by creatures of the Void (like Voidcallers through their lanterns), and fallen Naaru can suck in souls as well (like K'ara and K'ure).
Yogg-Saron (through his puzzle box) also speaks of eating souls.

All places, all things have souls. All souls can be devoured.

Like the Halls of Valor, different souls have different places they can go. The Twisting Nether is where demonic souls go to regenerate, and it's not mentioned that any other creature can do that. The Emerald Dream is where the souls of Wild Gods (including Loa) and certain demigods go to regenerate - even Green Dragons, it seems (considering Ysera's soul and the souls of the Nightmare Dragons can be seen there). Elementals are sent back to their planes when killed outside of it - which was seen with Ragnaros between Molten Core and Cataclysm. Mostly, this is the case for all these separate planes, however.

Souls also obviously can exist in the material plane as well - they can be found in different forms (like Banshees, wisps, spirits, etc) all over the world, depending on the race that died, or how that race died it seems. Souls can also be used in technology and magic, like Legion machines/ships, Draenei/Eredar Vigilants, and even portals. It seems there's some sort of time frame where souls still stick around the mortal plane.

So, there really isn't just one afterlife in WoW, and each one of those afterlives has it's own ruler.

[Osiria]

Thats a temporary state though.



I was using god and the devil as a parallel to the real world, this one deity that rules over the entire realm. Like ragnaros and the fire plane for example. Not so much towards the actual faith and morals side of it all.



But then that doesn't really address what it is that is the ruler of these planes. Being turned into a Demon or Undead doesn't really work as they can still die.




Depends how you define it. You could argue Helya, the elemental lords, the pantheon are all deities too.

Why does being a temporary state makes it not an afterlife?

I don't think it has to have any leading being behind.

Seems your idea of afterlife has to have some sort of permanent clause stating the individual can't die, like ever, or be affected by anything else, also ever. I'd call becoming a demon, undead or spirit an afterlife.

Helya, the elemental lords, titans etc, are just very powerful individuals. They can die and have their limitations, they have souls that can be hold, trapped, interacted with, killed, etc. Elune is a goddess because you can't do such things to her. Her influence extends to the entire universe, all creatures or as long as the source of her powers is present, she isn't exactly sitting in a throne plotting about what to do next like beings would do, she doesn't have a body or soul clearly to be consumed or manipulated, etc.