WoW Classic Dungeons & Raids Difficulties

[Soon-TM]

Stop shifting goalposts. TBC had multiple difficulties for some content. And some heroics (e.g. magister's terrace) did earn endgame worthy gear.

You are wrong. The end.

Lololololol MGT giving endgame worthy gear ROFL HC MGT was introduced to give non-raiders (i.e. people who couldn't make it past Vashj) something to do, and little else. Or did you make it to SWP clad in full MGT drops? And you have the gall to talk about shifting goalposts Yes, I was wrong about HC dungeons, happy now? It didn't matter anyway, because progression-wise, they were just a stepping stone for raids. And the problem with multiple difficulties in retail has nothing to do with dungeons ROFL; in fact, the multiple difficulties for dungeons (aka M+) is one of the most acclaimed features of Legion.

You are wrong. The end.

[ydraw]

Lololololol MGT giving endgame worthy gear ROFL HC MGT was introduced to give non-raiders (i.e. people who couldn't make it past Vashj) something to do, and little else. Or did you make it to SWP clad in full MGT drops?

MGT gear, especially the trinkets, was BIS pre-sunwell for many classes. Kael in MGT dropped ilvl loot which was equivalent to the loot that dropped in tier 5 raids, but with more sockets and better itemised for a lot of classes..

So yes, many people went into Sunwell wearing heroic MGT gear, especially the trinkets. It's obvious you didn't play back then, or you would know that.

And the problem with multiple difficulties in retail has nothing to do with dungeons

What problem with multiple difficulties? There's no problem I can see.

[Soon-TM]

MGT gear, especially the trinkets, was BIS pre-sunwell.

They were like badge gear; they could work, but were no BiS, not by any means. Of course, they were better than nothing, but BiS? C'mon...

[ydraw]

They were like badge gear; they could work, but were no BiS, not by any means. Of course, they were better than nothing, but BiS? C'mon...

The trinkets were easily best in slot for most classes. The other gear was notable for having a lot of gem slots which made it competitive with T6 gear despite lower ilvl.

Like I said, anyone who played then would know that. You obviously didn't play in TBC because you've displayed complete ignorance of the expansion on multiple topics now.

[Nitros14]

The trinkets were easily best in slot for most classes. The other gear was notable for having a lot of gem slots which made it competitive with T6 gear despite lower ilvl.

Like I said, anyone who played then would know that. You obviously didn't play in TBC because you've displayed complete ignorance of the expansion on multiple topics now.

BiS for Mage in Black Temple/Hyjal vs demon/undead was skull of gul'dan and the Kel'Thuzad +85 spellpower trinket from Naxxramas 60 as I recall.

[Soon-TM]

The trinkets were easily best in slot for most classes. The other gear was notable for having a lot of gem slots which made it competitive with T6 gear despite lower ilvl.

Like I said, anyone who played then would know that. You obviously didn't play in TBC because you've displayed complete ignorance of the expansion on multiple topics now.

KK dude, I will let you live in your delusional world where MGT gear was BiS. As if I cared... BB, it's late here, gotta go to bed.

[ydraw]

BiS for Mage in Black Temple/Hyjal vs demon/undead was skull of gul'dan and the Kel'Thuzad +85 spellpower trinket from Naxxramas 60 as I recall.

For mage yes, because the caster trinket mostly buffed dots. So mages/destro didn't use it. Spriests did.

The trinkets for other classes were much better.

The undead/demon trinket was nuts but only 4 of the 6 sunwell bosses were demons or undead. It was also extremely rare because less than 0.5% of the BC player base actually killed KT in Naxx 60. The amount of them who would have been playing the same class would have been even smaller.

Pretty sure the Hex Shrunken Head from Zul'aman would have been one of the BIS trinkets for most caster classes too.

[Deleted]

I wasn't good enough at the game in TBC to attest to the value of items from heroic dungeons compared to raids.

People have pointed out some of the ways you can make fights harder, and they're pretty cool ideas, but it seems to ultimately lack consistency. You can say Hakkar has these hard modes available, but that's just one boss. I personally believe that creating more of these hard mode mechanics would only be extra content for players. This does however provide the problem that without multiple raid difficulties, you would have to modify the original fight, and that's not something I'm particularly in favour of either.

Having some extra thoughts on the matter:
Gear could be labeled with the difficulty it was achieved on, with no difference in stats. It'd just be an extra label on the item, and that'd solely serve as a prestige thing.

Another idea (and I admit I find this questionable myself), is if the harder modes of raids can still drop loot, albeit identical to the original version. This would mean that if players clear Onyxia, they could then do Onyxia (Heroic) for a chance at extra loot for that week. It would allow for more dedicated guilds to progress through content differently to guilds playing at a more leisurely pace, as it has the potential to cut down the 'waiting to gear appropriately for the fight time' by the amount of time the players are willing to put into the game. (EDIT) Of course, with each difficulty included the players are less likely to kill the boss, until there comes a point where it's statistically impossible.

I'm still not sure what you could give players for completing dungeons scaled to level 60 that wouldn't be a problem for the vanilla experience. Obviously scaling the drops from those dungeons wouldn't work, because there's a solid chance it'd alter BiS items.

[Nitros14]

I got really hyped on classic and was watching a stream of some private server raiders and watched them die to Kel'Thuzad for sixteen hours and concluded Naxxramas at least will pose a challenge.

Doing Blackwing Lair or Molten Core with 16 debuff slots and Naxxramas talent trees just seems grossly unfair to the instances.

[Deleted]

I got really hyped on classic and was watching a stream of some private server raiders and watched them die to Kel'Thuzad for sixteen hours and concluded Naxxramas at least will pose a challenge.

Doing Blackwing Lair or Molten Core with 16 debuff slots and Naxxramas talent trees just seems grossly unfair to the instances.

I'm not surprised Naxx poses a challenge either way

Re: 16 debuff slots, I wouldn't be surprised if this changed, whether we want it or not. The server infrastructure will no doubt be updated in some way, as will the client. Maybe Blizzard will conscientiously impose the 16 debuff limit, but I can totally see it being squeaked past as a QOL change.

[ydraw]

I wasn't good enough at the game in TBC to attest to the value of items from heroic dungeons compared to raids.

Itemisation was all over the place in TBC. Some stats were way better than others (haste was OP for most classes for example), and often weapon speed was much more important than ilvl. So items with gem slots were way more valuable than they appeared because of the relative power of haste vs every other stat - very similar to Timewalking scaling now.

I mained a BM hunter and my BIS weapon was a BOE epic that I bought from the auction house when I dinged 70. http://www.wowhead.com/item=31323/do...-hunting-rifle

It didn't get replaced until Sunwell.

As above, some items from Vanilla remained BIS until the end of TBC.

[Deleted]

Itemisation was all over the place in TBC. Some stats were way better than others (haste was OP for most classes for example), and often weapon speed was much more important than ilvl. So items with gem slots were way more valuable than they appeared because of the relative power of haste vs every other stat - very similar to Timewalking scaling now.

I mained a BM hunter and my BIS weapon was a BOE epic that I bought from the auction house when I dinged 70. http://www.wowhead.com/item=31323/do...-hunting-rifle

It didn't get replaced until Sunwell.

As above, some items from Vanilla remained BIS until the end of TBC.

So out of curiosity, if you wanted to play Classic but didn't have a lot of time available to you, would you run harder versions of dungeons for fun?

[ydraw]

So out of curiosity, if you wanted to play Classic but didn't have a lot of time available to you, would you run harder versions of dungeons for fun?

I wouldn't play classic unless it had M+ dungeons. For me they are the main reason for playing.

Multiple raid difficulties would also be required for it to be mildly attractive. Vanilla raids would not be challenging at all. And while they might have been attractive enough in 2004 with no competition, I can't see why I'd play Vanilla over live if it didn't have those features.

But yes, to answer your question, if I was a person with a small amount of free time, I'd run harder dungeons for fun. And so would many other people, which is why M+ is such a huge success.

[deniter]

So, people want to keep the feeling of vanilla WoW rightfully so, but how would you feel about a PVE prestige system?

Over the years dungeons and raiding have changed a lot: we got heroics, hard modes, and mythics. Comparably vanilla dungeons and raids are reasonably easy by these standards. Getting the gear and players might be a bit of trouble, however these fights weren't mechanically out of this world. Some were heavily overtuned and downright impossible, such as C'Thun, but this isn't the focus of this thread.

Would you as players want to see:
* All old world dungeons with an option to scale up to level 60 (nothing in between, no level 40 deadmines)
* Harder versions of this content in similar fashion to mythic+
* Increased difficulty could be implemented with bigger numbers, or with additional effects like mythic+

With this proposition in mind, I'm not proposing these dungeons give you better loot. The loot would stay entirely the same.

The purpose of this would simply be to provide players with more content and challenges when they reach the end game. It's not a catchup system, free loot system, or number expansion system.

Vanilla is its own experience in its own right, and I wouldn't want to detract from that; however I think it'd be nice to increase the amount of content for players at max level. That said, this system wouldn't need to be instantaneous. This is hardly an off-the-bat necessity, but rather something to increase options for players later down the line.

I don't think you understand how vanilla WoW works. You don't run dungeons in vanilla to collect pets or just for giggles like in retail, you do it for the quests and loot. Besides, i can assure you will always have something to do in vanilla. Only 1% of all players cleared Naxxramas.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Just lower your player stats via gear if you want fights to be harder.

Just because it's not automated by blizzard-set scaling levels, you can still set "rules" for your raid/dungeon group.

Ironman challenge isn't official, and people still do it.

Only because an adequate system is in place though. I for one wouldn't expect this to work, but instead would want to see the pve retuned so it can be an adequate challenge. Right now the classic experience ends at level 59 on private servers. I'd want to see raids actually be progression again and that will involved increasing the difficulty for sure.

- - - Updated - - -

They were like badge gear; they could work, but were no BiS, not by any means. Of course, they were better than nothing, but BiS? C'mon...

Yes they were, the trinket from council was bis for enhance outside of sunwell. This it was for multiple melee too, but not sure. Not sure why this is discussed in a classic thread though. There are always dungeon outliers in every expansion. Look at legion.

[Deleted]

Nah. Why do people insist on changes to make it a funserver, jesus.

Just play live if you want, heroics, hard modes, mythic, mythic+, LFR, LFD and whatever the fuck else.

[Deleted]

I don't think you understand how vanilla WoW works. You don't run dungeons in vanilla to collect pets or just for giggles like in retail, you do it for the quests and loot. Besides, i can assure you will always have something to do in vanilla. Only 1% of all players cleared Naxxramas.

Right, but that's saying "I can assure you will always have more raids to do in vanilla", which is alright for the people that want to raid.

I don't think Naxx is going to be as challenging as it was in Vanilla either, as player skill has increased, and addons have become more abundant and intrinsic to play.

And no you didn't run dungeons for giggles in vanilla, because there wasn't an incentive to do so. However, when you create an incentive like you see with the mythic+ system, people will run dungeons even when there isn't a reward for it. They do it for the competitive element of who can finish the dungeon on the highest key in a good time.

Nah. Why do people insist on changes to make it a funserver, jesus.

Just play live if you want, heroics, hard modes, mythic, mythic+, LFR, LFD and whatever the fuck else.

I wasn't aware you could run heroic BRD with Vanilla talents and equipment on live. This isn't a 'funserver' or 'easy mode' suggestion, this is a suggestion to expand content for players that do want it.

[Deficineiron]

I wouldn't play classic unless it had M+ dungeons. For me they are the main reason for playing.

Multiple raid difficulties would also be required for it to be mildly attractive. Vanilla raids would not be challenging at all. And while they might have been attractive enough in 2004 with no competition, I can't see why I'd play Vanilla over live if it didn't have those features.

But yes, to answer your question, if I was a person with a small amount of free time, I'd run harder dungeons for fun. And so would many other people, which is why M+ is such a huge success.

I think dungeon/raid difficulties are almost a given at this point. I am more concerned with how much they trivialize outdoor leveling/questing/leveling dungeons. In classic this was the primary game for most people and if they go with their current design model, it will cease to be relevant or engaging in the same manner it was/(is on ps still).

[deniter]

Right, but that's saying "I can assure you will always have more raids to do in vanilla", which is alright for the people that want to raid.

I don't think Naxx is going to be as challenging as it was in Vanilla either, as player skill has increased, and addons have become more abundant and intrinsic to play.

And no you didn't run dungeons for giggles in vanilla, because there wasn't an incentive to do so. However, when you create an incentive like you see with the mythic+ system, people will run dungeons even when there isn't a reward for it. They do it for the competitive element of who can finish the dungeon on the highest key in a good time.

How they end up tuning the game remains to be seen. We'll see it when it's ready.

I dont' like the idea of having different versions of the same dungeon, but i'd love to see 'mythic+' server where everything was harder and took much longer than in normal Classic realm. I would play there for years.

[Deleted]

How they end up tuning the game remains to be seen. We'll see it when it's ready.

I dont' like the idea of having different versions of the same dungeon, but i'd love to see 'mythic+' server where everything was harder and took much longer than in normal Classic realm. I would play there for years.

Wouldn't this have a really steep level of entry? Like it'd be hard to get the gear to do the dungeons to get the gear to do the dungeons sort of conundrum?