Does Horde have -any- relative power to the Alliance?

[Saberstrike]

Disclaimer: I'm an Alliance player, so I am biased.

BfA cinematic really got me wondering -- what -does- horde have that could even remotely compare to the combined power of the alliance? Plot armor not withstanding, I honestly just don't see why Horde as a faction is even a thing in post-BfA world. Let's break it down:

Alliance:

Humans. Weaker person per person when compared to members of the horde, but much more numerous, disciplined and better equipped. Humans in WoW universe aren't much to look at, but like in many fantasy universes their power largely comes form diplomacy and ability to assemble a fighting force of other races superior to the sum of its parts.

Dwarves. I feel like ever since Warcraft 3 Blizz was going out of their way to diminish the importance and power of steam tanks. They weren't even a part of any major conflict, purely for reasons of a giant metal thing with a cannon DWARFING -ANYTHING- horde can throw back at it. This alone would make alliance vs horde conflict quite trivial. But guess what? I'm not even half-way done. Dwarves also happen to be tough bastards that carry axe-rifles, and come BfA will also hold the most important chokepoint in the Eastern Kingdoms (Blackrock Mountain). They make best equipment in the warcraft world. And frankly, dwarves alone should be able to if not completely send the greens running, but win any defensive attrition war against any attempts to attack them in the mountains.

Gnomes.... Okay, as cool as their tech is, goblins just win this one. I'll concede that.

Night Elves. Lacking in numbers and evidently losing much of their territory, a night elf archer would still realistically be a much bigger presence on any battlefield than the game leads on. The way Saurfang just shrugs off arrows in the cinematic is a prime example of Blizz giving orcs plot armor. Those three arrows should've left him bleeding out and dying, but I guess with the healing the way it is in WoW real life physics of fractured bones & muscles don't really apply. Still; Night elves are quite big, nimble and vicious, and should be quite challenging to take down, even if they have largely lost creatures like stone giants helping them wipe the floor with orcs in warcraft 3.

Draenei. Again, big and experienced due to age; There isn't much in ways of old tbc draenei lore to really quantify their power, but the lightforged literally have SPACE SHIPS AND LASER BEAMS. Again; Much like dwarves, how does this even compete vs literal spear-chuckers?

Horde:

Orcs, trolls and tauren all largely fall into one category -- superior 1v1 to a human, but woefully under-equipped and unable to tactically take larger-scale engagements. There's no tactics to speak of, no discipline, just primal rage and blunt but effective shamanism. Well guess what -- being angry at a dwarven tank ain't going to do sh*t as it rolls you over and turns you into a horde-flavoured pancake. And unlike the alliance united under the humans, horde is a much more loose conglomerate largely weary of working together. They stand ideologically divided, with the races not in any way complementing each other on the battlefield.

Undead. Now this is probably the most powerful race the reds have due to one single trump card -- the plague. Realistically, with the Valkyr gone and the forsaken taking MASSIVE losses in those Legion warden tower quests there shouldn't be more than a few thousand of them left; But even that aside, a forsaken combatant is largely weaker than even their human counterpart. They may not 'die' as it were when they get their head cut off but it is mighty difficult to battle without arms. Their gear is busted and rotten. And there's a reason a stereotypical undead is a rogue -- their best way of attack comes from subtlety, not full frontal engagements.

Goblins. Again -- as combatants they're worthless, but their exploding machinery can prove quite deadly. But there has been no evidence of horde-aligned goblins building anywhere near as efficient and numerous mechanized military as their alliance counterparts, especially after most of it was dismantled during Siege of Orgrimmar.

Blood Elves -- Lore-wise they are very few, but even if we assume player-centered 60+% of the horde numbers, that still doesn't explain how a bunch of wannabe-paladins, decent rangers & decent mages can do much more than stall their alliance foes, should they choose to go fully offensive. Also; Any advantage blood elves have is largely trumped by the presence of void elves. A mana bomb would do some damage, but I doubt that after theramore the alliance would just let that happen again. And frankly I still consider mana bomb in theramore to just be bad writing.


So... yeah. Can some more horde-aligned players give me a different perspective on the matter? Cause it looks to me that red VS blue is swiftly devolving to a mix of 16th - 30th century warfare -somehow- struggling to defeat bronze age barbarians and their slightly less backwards friends. It's getting a bit ridiculous.

[speedymonkey]

I am biased.

That is correct.

[Azahel]

If you think about it, population-wise the Horde should be much less powerful than it is in game, there's not a single horde race that was not on the brink of total annihilation at some point over the last decade or two. But then again, faction balance...

[TheGrimsey]

Sylvanas still has 5 Val'kyr... She didn't lose the scourge ones she already had in Stormheim.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I don't want to dive too much into this conversation, but here's a biased horde perspective:
They typically have their backs to the wall. It's why they ended up banding together in the first place. Regardless of what led to the battle for Lordaeron, the Horde look to be on the verge of being routed and having one of their capitals razed. The prospect of losing when/if surrender isn't an option probably will make a few arrows not bother you for too long.
Big cows and green people lend a lot to the Horde's might. That includes the Highmountain Tauren.
Forsaken might not be sturdy, but a forsaken with their arms chopped off is a forsaken with arms that are looking for something to choke.
Goblins are still capable of building and blowing stuff up. Trolls have proven to be resilient.
Blood Elves have pretty capable strength between their constructs, magic and the sunwell. And who knows what the Nightborne would bring to the table.

And when it comes down to it, as evidenced by the Orc internment camps, even the Alliance doesn't have the will to annihilate the Horde races even if there were defeated. Winning the faction war wouldn't result in the genocide of the defeated.

[Deleted]

so I am biased.

Biased is an understatement for what you described. You're biased as fuck.

[Kwento]

Your outlook on Tauren/orcs and trolls is a bit outdated.
The rage point is not entire valid with the current Horde, even if it is present here and there. Orcs are extremely efficient warriors with equipment that is in no way inferior to that of humans. Look at Saurfang’s armor or Kor’Kron under Garrosh. They proved to be a lot more shifty then they are usually seen. For example Theramor, being a 100% orcish tactic.
Tauren are much more into the spiritual sence of things. Their warriors are known not only for their strength but skill as well. Cairne vs Garrosh showed the limits of their abilities, putting them above the slow and lumbering brutes stereotype. Apart from that they are much more versatile then we often see. Having druids, priests, paladins and shamans as a part of their troops.
Darkspear trolls are ofter underestimated but out of all the tribes, Darkspears are the most versatile and open minded. We know troll mages, warlocks, priests, druids, shamans and many more. Apart from that, they wield magic type that is unique to their race - voodoo. We still don’t know just how effective it can be. As for their tactical abilities, read Shadows of the Horde. Vol’jin’s tactical genius allows him and thirty two other warriors to stand against an army of Zandalari.

Oh... And as for experience, it doesn’t work in Warcraft universe.

[mickybrighteyes]

If you think about it, population-wise the Horde should be much less powerful than it is in game, there's not a single horde race that was not on the brink of total annihilation at some point over the last decade or two. But then again, faction balance...

well.. every population has been on the brink of annihilation... that's sort of what's happened in every major story arc.


to the OP. The Horde still has the races witht he highest proficiency with the arcane and no qualms about using it.. and the hardest bunch of ground units to kill. We literally pick some of these peoples off the ground and spend multiple quest stages piecing them together before they move on in the story (a troll as an example who died after picking up all his pieces and finally killing the thing that ripped him apart or any of the undead who somehow retained sentience in a state of being crushed into bits).

The overall hardiness of some horde races also seems to let them exist in places the alliance main forces just can't afford to chase them for extended periods of time.

[anaxie]

Rofl. The Alliance doesnt have Dalaran

The Horde has Suramar, Silvermoon, and the Zandalari Empire which will probably lead to even more troll allies to come.

That alone is a checkmate for the Alliance

[Zerel]

forsaken taking MASSIVE losses in those Legion warden tower quests there shouldn't be more than a few thousand of them left;

Well, from my perspective my one forsaken Warlock gave MASSIVE loses to Gilneas, there should be hardly any worgen left. So mabye skip symetric repetable quests from calculations of yours. Also, Biased heavily indeed.

[mickybrighteyes]

actually if we factor in Zandalari with horde... that skews things a bit...

Zandalari are headed up by Rastakhan who is the leader of ALL KNOWN TROLLS (blood trolls aside and dark spear not included) Granted we have never really seen much of the troll forces outside of a few fallen ruins (sunken temple, Zul'farak, zul'gurub, and zul'aman come to mind for most people) but a Zandalari Empire has been said to exist and we've only seen a very little of that idea.

[Azen]

So... yeah. Can some more horde-aligned players give me a different perspective on the matter? Cause it looks to me that red VS blue is swiftly devolving to a mix of 16th - 30th century warfare -somehow- struggling to defeat bronze age barbarians and their slightly less backwards friends. It's getting a bit ridiculous.

As for the Tauren, Trolls and Orcs;

This.

Your outlook on Tauren/orcs and trolls is a bit outdated.

read Shadows of the Horde. Vol’jin’s tactical genius allows him and thirty two other warriors to stand against an army of Zandalari.

As for the Blood elves; I'm not sure what the root of your bias is to understate their power and skill, especially the archers and mages. Throughout the lore they would appear to be as powerful and skilled as their alliance counterparts.

The horde seem barbaric and disorganized from an Alliance perspective (bronze age barbarians as you put it), which I think is exactly what blizzard intends. From a horde perspective the Alliance seem arrogant, short sighted and impotent.

[anaxie]

Biased is an understatement for what you described. You're biased as fuck.

Disclaimer: I'm an Alliance player, so I am biased.

BfA cinematic really got me wondering -- what -does- horde have that could even remotely compare to the combined power of the alliance? Plot armor not withstanding, I honestly just don't see why Horde as a faction is even a thing in post-BfA world. Let's break it down:

Alliance:

Humans. Weaker person per person when compared to members of the horde, but much more numerous, disciplined and better equipped. Humans in WoW universe aren't much to look at, but like in many fantasy universes their power largely comes form diplomacy and ability to assemble a fighting force of other races superior to the sum of its parts.

Dwarves. I feel like ever since Warcraft 3 Blizz was going out of their way to diminish the importance and power of steam tanks. They weren't even a part of any major conflict, purely for reasons of a giant metal thing with a cannon DWARFING -ANYTHING- horde can throw back at it. This alone would make alliance vs horde conflict quite trivial. But guess what? I'm not even half-way done. Dwarves also happen to be tough bastards that carry axe-rifles, and come BfA will also hold the most important chokepoint in the Eastern Kingdoms (Blackrock Mountain). They make best equipment in the warcraft world. And frankly, dwarves alone should be able to if not completely send the greens running, but win any defensive attrition war against any attempts to attack them in the mountains.

Gnomes.... Okay, as cool as their tech is, goblins just win this one. I'll concede that.

Night Elves. Lacking in numbers and evidently losing much of their territory, a night elf archer would still realistically be a much bigger presence on any battlefield than the game leads on. The way Saurfang just shrugs off arrows in the cinematic is a prime example of Blizz giving orcs plot armor. Those three arrows should've left him bleeding out and dying, but I guess with the healing the way it is in WoW real life physics of fractured bones & muscles don't really apply. Still; Night elves are quite big, nimble and vicious, and should be quite challenging to take down, even if they have largely lost creatures like stone giants helping them wipe the floor with orcs in warcraft 3.

Draenei. Again, big and experienced due to age; There isn't much in ways of old tbc draenei lore to really quantify their power, but the lightforged literally have SPACE SHIPS AND LASER BEAMS. Again; Much like dwarves, how does this even compete vs literal spear-chuckers?

Horde:

Orcs, trolls and tauren all largely fall into one category -- superior 1v1 to a human, but woefully under-equipped and unable to tactically take larger-scale engagements. There's no tactics to speak of, no discipline, just primal rage and blunt but effective shamanism. Well guess what -- being angry at a dwarven tank ain't going to do sh*t as it rolls you over and turns you into a horde-flavoured pancake. And unlike the alliance united under the humans, horde is a much more loose conglomerate largely weary of working together. They stand ideologically divided, with the races not in any way complementing each other on the battlefield.

Undead. Now this is probably the most powerful race the reds have due to one single trump card -- the plague. Realistically, with the Valkyr gone and the forsaken taking MASSIVE losses in those Legion warden tower quests there shouldn't be more than a few thousand of them left; But even that aside, a forsaken combatant is largely weaker than even their human counterpart. They may not 'die' as it were when they get their head cut off but it is mighty difficult to battle without arms. Their gear is busted and rotten. And there's a reason a stereotypical undead is a rogue -- their best way of attack comes from subtlety, not full frontal engagements.

Goblins. Again -- as combatants they're worthless, but their exploding machinery can prove quite deadly. But there has been no evidence of horde-aligned goblins building anywhere near as efficient and numerous mechanized military as their alliance counterparts, especially after most of it was dismantled during Siege of Orgrimmar.

Blood Elves -- Lore-wise they are very few, but even if we assume player-centered 60+% of the horde numbers, that still doesn't explain how a bunch of wannabe-paladins, decent rangers & decent mages can do much more than stall their alliance foes, should they choose to go fully offensive. Also; Any advantage blood elves have is largely trumped by the presence of void elves. A mana bomb would do some damage, but I doubt that after theramore the alliance would just let that happen again. And frankly I still consider mana bomb in theramore to just be bad writing.


So... yeah. Can some more horde-aligned players give me a different perspective on the matter? Cause it looks to me that red VS blue is swiftly devolving to a mix of 16th - 30th century warfare -somehow- struggling to defeat bronze age barbarians and their slightly less backwards friends. It's getting a bit ridiculous.

Did you just call the blood elves decent rangers lol.


Lets consider for a second the ONLY human ranger EVER is Sylvanas Champion Nathanos. Lol

Oh and which race taight the muggles magic? Oh the blood elves of course


Did you just call thw horde orcs trolls and tauren savages lol.

What do you think your hiplie homeless elves and rabid dogs are?

[Linkedblade]

You mention dwarf tech. In War2 whatever dwarves and gnomes could come up with, the goblins can as well. I know the Alliance and horde are balanced for gameplay in war2, but they have similar tech.

[Deleted]

Maybe the one wish to live their own ways instead of being incamped, slaughtered because of looking different or of things? I get it that Allie players don't check the idea behind the Horde. Alliance ist like our reality, just with magic and king and some funny human-like creature. People like you will never understand.
Stay biased

[Saberstrike]

Your outlook on Tauren/orcs and trolls is a bit outdated.
The rage point is not entire valid with the current Horde, even if it is present here and there. Orcs are extremely efficient warriors with equipment that is in no way inferior to that of humans. Look at Saurfang’s armor or Kor’Kron under Garrosh. They proved to be a lot more shifty then they are usually seen. For example Theramor, being a 100% orcish tactic.

That's a good point, but compared to a literal forge-city of ... Ironforge, where -do- orcs get such vast quantity of 'equal to / greater than' dwarven-made stuff? They -did- upgrade general Horde grunts visually circa cata and onwards, and they -did- tell a story in the world revamp of how they won many battles in Kalimdor, but there never was much in ways of explanation beyond 'orc come - orc win'.

The WoD Iron Horde had an entire industrial complex the size of org to supply their front lines and they still accomplished digital equivalent of nothing with it all. -- Though that might also just be bad writing, as WoD isn't a good example. Of anything.

As for the Blood elves; I'm not sure what the root of your bias is to understate their power and skill, especially the archers and mages. Throughout the lore they would appear to be as powerful and skilled as their alliance counterparts.

That's true, but there's a lot fewer of them. And let's not forget that night elves are basically just bigger blood elves, when it comes to archery. Perhaps even magic. Come to think of it, there really weren't any memorable blood elves in the BfA cinematic, which is why my thoughts are a bit skewered against them. It will be nonetheless curious to see what becomes of Quel'Thalas, as it does feel like the alliance advancing that far north will put them in a bit of a predicament. -- assuming Blizz ever get off their asses and decide to do -anything new- with BC zones.

You mention dwarf tech. In War2 whatever dwarves and gnomes could come up with, the goblins can as well. I know the Alliance and horde are balanced for gameplay in war2, but they have similar tech.

I mean; Warcraft 2 alliance flying explorer unit was a gyrocopter, while horde one was a zeppelin. A zeppelin is a lot less 'technical' than a helicopter.

Granted, Warcraft 2 alliance air combat unit was a gryphon rider while horde had dragons, and the two were about equal in power. If current horde had dragons it would really even out the odds...

[Deleted]

Here kids we have a study in lack of self awareness. Our author believes he/she is slightly biased, but in reality, his/her entire argumenation is built on a foundation of bias where he/she constantly downplays anything the horde has or does and severly overplays anything the alliance has or does.

[Aphrel]

given that all the godlike lore figures have left the alliance and become neutral id say allys dont have that much of an edge anymore.
thou one whould assume that dranei and night elf mages/druids/shammys whould be far superior to any other race simply due to having gained experience for many millenias.. Tbh even an average nightelf/dranei mage shoudl be way ahead of jaina proudmore for instance.
A below average night elf hunter whoudl still have milions of hours of archery training, while a troll hunter whould have 20-50k hours.

[Kwento]

That's a good point, but compared to a literal forge-city of ... Ironforge, where -do- orcs get such vast quantity of 'equal to / greater than' dwarven-made stuff? They -did- upgrade general Horde grunts visually circa cata and onwards, and they -did- tell a story in the world revamp of how they won many battles in Kalimdor, but there never was much in ways of explanation beyond 'orc come - orc win'.

The WoD Iron Horde had an entire industrial complex the size of org to supply their front lines and they still accomplished digital equivalent of nothing with it all. -- Though that might also just be bad writing, as WoD isn't a good example. Of anything.
.

Not only is the world represented in the game not complete, but you also forget the insanely large underground part of Orgrimmar that did seem to have not only forges but an entire industrial complex that seemed to rival that of Ironforge.
As for their wins in Kalimdor, I can remember the quest where it is explained that the Horde were able to take a night elf city using some kind of a corrupted elemental. Once again pointing at a much less known shady side of orcish tactics that go beyond “I axe u”.

[Alex86el]

You wanna talk pre-BFA or not?

Lorewise....

The Horde are much fewer.

There's a a rather big population of Orcs and Undead.
I'm assuming the Tauren have somewhat recovered and have a decent population.
The Bloodelves were built-uppon/retconned and also have a respectable population.
Then there's half a village of Darkspears.
And half a ship of Bilgewaters.
And the Pandaren.

The Alliance on the other hand..

Have the Dwarves and Humans, who could easily be as many as the rest of Azeroth's population put together.
There's the Nightelves who are quite a few as well.
There's a respectable population of Worgen.
A few Gnomes and Draenei counting at four digits.
And the Pandaren.


Now, in BFA there's the allied races.

The Horde gets a few thousand Nightborne
A handful of Highmountains with a black dragon.
and the Zandalari, who have a big population.

The Alliance gets a few dozen Void Elves which is irrelevant.
But also the Lightforged with the Vindicaar.
As well as the Dark Irons who are numerous.


Lets break it down.

Army:
The Horde has many capable warriors.
An Orc or a Tauren can take on two Humans at a time.
Now, for some reason i dont understand, the Worgen are supposed to be the best fighters who can easily outmatch an orc (O_o?)
And there's also the Nightelves, Draenei and Dwarves. Who are also great fighters.
But! The Horde now has the Zandalari. Many Troll warriors with their imba regeneration. Which is incredibly op lorewise.
At range, it's basically Dwarves/Nightelves VS Bloodelves.
But while the allies would win the ranged battle, the Zandalari still make up for everything.
Horde takes this one.

Navy:
With the new BFA information at hand, the Zandalari are said to have the biggest naval fleet.
Close second is the Kul'tirans.
Third is Stormwind.
The rest are irrelevant.
I say this one is a tie.

Air:
I dont think i need to say much.
The Horde has a few beast riders, and a tiny number of pilots.
While the Alliance has a few Gnomish pilots, a lot of Ironforge pilots and riders,
the Wildhammer gryphon riders who lorewise are incredibly op.
And of course, the Vindicaar.
Alliance takes this one by far.

Engineering:
While the Horde now has the Bilgewaters, they are very very few. So very few.
On the other hand, the Alliance has more Gnomish engineers, a ton of Dwarven heavy machinery, and Draenei/Lightforged engineering too.
The Horde however has a wildcard. The Forsaken with their Blights.
I'll give this one to the Alliance, but fear the Blight.

And lastly, Magic:
Nightborne and Bloodelves vs a bajilion alliance spellcasters, including the Kirin Tor.
And so much light magic to deal with the Forsaken.
There's also shamans, druids and warlocks on both sides, but lorewise they are not that many.
Alliance takes this.

But while the Alliance wins overall, it all comes down to the Blight.