Does Horde have -any- relative power to the Alliance?

[Combatbutler]

yep i know, but the two thing arent in contrast, surely all belves "eat" thanks the sunwell, but belves spellcaster use it to have enough power to cast. otherwhise why rommath had to return from outland with fel energy to rebuild silvermoon if arcane power wast necessary to cast?

The sunwell was lost for years and the blood elves could still cast spells before leaving for Outland, the well is not needed for casting, just like the nightborne don't lose their ability to spellcast after the nightwell is gone.

[Whitedragon]

human paladins couldnt do nothing against scourge, you are vastly overestimating that weakness....



shandralar were joked by belves for their dated magic and there isnt a single stormwindian human mage of some note.
dark iron appear to be good summoner, thats all....

Paladins where the strongest warriors VS the scourge, the only reason they lost was a pure numbers game. The light has been said to decemate undead turning them to ash as seen with people like Alexandros Mograine.

As for point 2 they have Jaina, and lets not pretend that horde have anymore mages of note, how many do they have..... oh ya just one, Rommath. Also Dalaran has moved back to the Alliance in the past it's not impossible for it to do so again.

[Kathranis]

Well, it did take the combined might of the Horde rebels and the Alliance forces to overthrow just Garrosh's orc-dominated faction in Orgrimmar.

[Toppy]

Paladins where the strongest warriors VS the scourge, the only reason they lost was a pure numbers game. The light has been said to decemate undead turning them to ash as seen with people like Alexandros Mograine.

As for point 2 they have Jaina, and lets not pretend that horde have anymore mages of note, how many do they have..... oh ya just one, Rommath. Also Dalaran has moved back to the Alliance in the past it's not impossible for it to do so again.

Not really.

Mograine's weapon specifically was said to decimate undead. Otherwise the light is at most a bit effective against undead. Otherwise the Scarlets wouldn't have struggled to put down even mindless, disorganized bunches they constantly struggled with.

You're also not counting any of the Nightborne, or even other Blood Elven mages, including Aethas, or Thalen Songweaver who beat Jaina down so hard that it was like a an apprentice trying to match a master.

But go on and keep exaggerating things for your argument.

[Karadros]

Has anyone mentioned yet that the Blood Elves have spearheaded three major military campaigns?

[omeomorfismo]

Paladins where the strongest warriors VS the scourge, the only reason they lost was a pure numbers game. The light has been said to decemate undead turning them to ash as seen with people like Alexandros Mograine.

As for point 2 they have Jaina, and lets not pretend that horde have anymore mages of note, how many do they have..... oh ya just one, Rommath. Also Dalaran has moved back to the Alliance in the past it's not impossible for it to do so again.

yes with a naruu core as sword and a skilled paladin. so because a plaguespreader can melt all races suddendly all forsaken melt at sight everyone?

[Whitedragon]

yes with a naruu core as sword and a skilled paladin. so because a plaguespreader can melt all races suddendly all forsaken melt at sight everyone?

Paladins have been destroying undead since warcraft 2 without the aid of the ashbringer, that's where the skill exorcise came from in wow. Holy light also did major damage to anything undead.

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You're also not counting any of the Nightborne, or even other Blood Elven mages, including Aethas, or Thalen Songweaver who beat Jaina down so hard that it was like a an apprentice trying to match a master.

The question was what mages dose the HORDE have Aethas now belongs to Dalaran, if you count him as horde we count every other human there as alliance. As for number 2, is Thalen Songweaver even part of the horde now considering he betrays them by freeing Garrosh? Also beat Jaina down? he turns on everyone at Theramore by making an oping for the horde then fled to avoid a trial for his crimes. As for the Nightborn joining, the only mage of any real caliber we know of is their leader who we haven't seen do much yet (She helps during the rescue in SW, but once again doesn't really do much other then make a bubble and call for retreat after seeing Jaina).

[Maleific]

Paladins have been destroying undead since warcraft 2 without the aid of the ashbringer, that's where the skill exorcise came from in wow. Holy light also did major damage to anything undead.

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The question was what mages dose the HORDE have Aethas now belongs to Dalaran, if you count him as horde we count every other human there as alliance. As for number 2, is Thalen Songweaver even part of the horde now considering he betrays them by freeing Garrosh? Also beat Jaina down? he turns on everyone at Theramore by making an oping for the horde then fled to avoid a trial for his crimes. As for the Nightborn joining, the only mage of any real caliber we know of is their leader who we haven't seen do much yet (She helps during the rescue in SW, but once again doesn't really do much other then make a bubble and call for retreat after seeing Jaina).

Where do you get the idea of Dalaran going back to the Alliance? Last I heard Khadgar wasn't taking a side in the conflict.

[Toppy]

Paladins have been destroying undead since warcraft 2 without the aid of the ashbringer, that's where the skill exorcise came from in wow. Holy light also did major damage to anything undead.

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The question was what mages dose the HORDE have Aethas now belongs to Dalaran, if you count him as horde we count every other human there as alliance. As for number 2, is Thalen Songweaver even part of the horde now considering he betrays them by freeing Garrosh? Also beat Jaina down? he turns on everyone at Theramore by making an oping for the horde then fled to avoid a trial for his crimes. As for the Nightborn joining, the only mage of any real caliber we know of is their leader who we haven't seen do much yet (She helps during the rescue in SW, but once again doesn't really do much other then make a bubble and call for retreat after seeing Jaina).

Aethas is, and always has been, the Horde representative on the Kiron Tor. In the novel Thaelen counters Jaina's magic quiet easily, barely even trying. Though I did forget that his allegiance is currently up in the air, so I apologize for that. The greater point was that to him Jaina was as a child. She had to be saved by her body guard ambushing him.

For the Nightborne, their leader is one. Theres also Oculeth who can put other mages to shame with his knowledge of portals. Theres Valtrois as well. Dont forget their entire society is based on being the best damn mage you can be.

Both Blood Elves and Nightborn are innately skilled at using magic even for their most basic of citizens. Hell they constantly make use of arcane golems.

Draenei are also known for this, and also have their own golems. Though they seem to mostly be about putting magic in crystals to make batteries than active use of it. Not to mention their race is very limited in number, composed of a bunch of people who could fit on the Exodar. Void Elves are also a thing, but canonically they'd be about the least populace race in the game (next to the Lightborne, which are the remnants of the army of the lights last ship, which crashed at the start of Argus). They don't compare well to the Nightborne. The best case for magic you'd find amongst the Alliance is honestly, the Dark Iron I'd say. They have a great deal of skilled casters and put their magic to practical use with their army of magic golems.

There is no real question that Blood Elves and Nightborne are far more known for their skill in magic. It permeates every level of their society. Nor is there any doubt that they have more spell casters. You're so focused on big named characters, but what does Alliance have? Jaina? That's about it. And Jaina got beat down by Thaelen who wasn't even trying. Since then she's gotten the Thunder Kings power yes, but then again the Blood Elves in that same go, have god blood powered golems. Nor can you forget that the Forsaken are comparable to humans.

And of course through all of this you're ignoring that Shamanism can topple entire cities, or the great power of Voodoo magic. And Horde certainly has a hell of a lot more in that regard. Its only getting more tilted in BfA as they're getting a civilization full of ancient magic users and gods, whereas the Alliance is getting.... boats? Boats comparable to those being used by the Zandalari who are said to have a fleet rivaling Kul Tiras?

[omeomorfismo]

Paladins have been destroying undead since warcraft 2 without the aid of the ashbringer, that's where the skill exorcise came from in wow. Holy light also did major damage to anything undead.

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The question was what mages dose the HORDE have Aethas now belongs to Dalaran, if you count him as horde we count every other human there as alliance. As for number 2, is Thalen Songweaver even part of the horde now considering he betrays them by freeing Garrosh? Also beat Jaina down? he turns on everyone at Theramore by making an oping for the horde then fled to avoid a trial for his crimes. As for the Nightborn joining, the only mage of any real caliber we know of is their leader who we haven't seen do much yet (She helps during the rescue in SW, but once again doesn't really do much other then make a bubble and call for retreat after seeing Jaina).

destroying? but if when paladins, kirin tor mages and elves ranger toghether joined alliance after the appaerance of death kinghts they barely stalled the conflict...
i repeat, you are vastly overstimating the light weakness of undeads. a random crusader could cast all the spells he want, someone as an abomination or strong forsaken like old nathanos will laugh at him, damn even i as a novice forsaken could fight against them in tirisfal glades....
they hurt me? sure, they vaporize me? lol no.

[Toppy]

destroying? but if when paladins, kirin tor mages and elves ranger toghether joined alliance after the appaerance of death kinghts they barely stalled the conflict...
i repeat, you are vastly overstimating the light weakness of undeads. a random crusader could cast all the spells he want, someone as an abomination or strong forsaken like old nathanos will laugh at him, damn even i as a novice forsaken could fight against them in tirisfal glades....
they hurt me? sure, they vaporize me? lol no.

Didn't you see all those scarlets vaporising the undead with the light?

Oh, you're saying that the light was so uneffective in this case they resorted to using fire, which proved much more effective?


But yeah, people tend to far over estimate the power of the light against undead. Ashbringer was shown to vaporize the undead, but then again Ashbringer was made from the essence of a god like light entity. Felomalorn would have done the same thing. Outside of that? Light has been shown as, at most, slightly more effective against the undead. But not hugely so. People let their expectations get in the way of reality. Hitting an undead with a bolt of light isn't far off from hitting it with a bolt of fire. Sure an undead is going to feel pain when channeling the light, but when used offensively against said undead? About the same effect.

[Nuniqt]

I think there are examples of powerful light wielders doing some pretty heavy damage to undead. I would also comment that like any other magic, it is largely as potent as the strength (not physical, but in magical power) of the user. Mograine with Ashbringer can vaporize undead. A (and I hesitate to say it like this) *run-of-the-mill* paladin is essentially a knight with weaponized light and holy support magic. Can he *vaporize* undead? Perhapse not. But his smite probably hits harder than a standard weapon attack because of magic... that also opposes the nature of undeath.

Strength/power of the individual applies here. You average pally will be murdered by a champion of the ebon blade. A zombie will be cut down by paladin of renown. Throw two equals into a ring... I'd buy tickets to that event
.

[Toppy]

I think there are examples of powerful light wielders doing some pretty heavy damage to undead. I would also comment that like any other magic, it is largely as potent as the strength (not physical, but in magical power) of the user. Mograine with Ashbringer can vaporize undead. A (and I hesitate to say it like this) *run-of-the-mill* paladin is essentially a knight with weaponized light and holy support magic. Can he *vaporize* undead? Perhapse not. But his smite probably hits harder than a standard weapon attack because of magic... that also opposes the nature of undeath.

Strength/power of the individual applies here. You average pally will be murdered by a champion of the ebon blade. A zombie will be cut down by paladin of renown. Throw two equals into a ring... I'd buy tickets to that event
.

Even at the lowest point of his power, Arthas, not yet all that empowered by souls or the lich king, bested all of histories greatest paladins, except Turalyon who wasnt there and Tirion. I think thats the closest we have to an equal battle: Death Knight Arthas vs Uther.

Ironically in Warcraft. It seems the best counter to a type of magic, is that same magic. See: Illidari and Death Knights, who were the strongest fighters against the Demons and Undead respectively.

[Jack Black]

As history shows (both pre and after WoW) Alliance don't need to defeat Horde. Horde will destroy itself.

[Toppy]

As history shows (both pre and after WoW) Alliance don't need to defeat Horde. Horde will destroy itself.

Couldn't the same be said of the Alliance?

*looks at alterac, lordaeron, the gnomes, the dwarves, stormwind, the night elves*

Other than the draenei, seems the alliance races have a history with screwing themselves.

[Deleted]

If it comes down to military power, then:

Steam tanks and archers are met 1 on 1 pretty much equally by a wide array of golems and elven archers. The Windrunners are thalassian for a reason, there's a big legacy on that name.

The Vindicaar? Now that's another story altogether.
The Army of Light sports some impressive firepower, and the only plausible counter the Horde has are Nightborne's portal magic. Which alone can turn pretty much any bombardment in a retaliatory strike, on paper.

Then we have the mass destruction weapons: the infamous Mana Bomb and the way more infamous Blight.
The Horde has some pretty nasty stuff that's never been used outside the plot device, and for good reason. This alone puts the Horde on top, in my opinion.

However, the Alliance completely overwhelms the Horde with its big players.
Anduin is the strongest Priest alive, Velen's seer powers are beyond mortal comprehension, Turalyon equals Saurfang in strength and experience, probably going even beyond (but is a massive tool), and Jaina is one of the most powerful wielders of the Arcane who's ever lived, to the point of the Horde being told that there's no way she could be faced 1v1.

We have to consider Tyrande and Malfurion aswell, which are pretty powerful aswell. The bulk of the Horde is made out of "simple" warriors, fighters and marksmen, with Sylvanas being the obvious outlier with her banshee powers.

[Whitedragon]

For the Nightborne, their leader is one. Theres also Oculeth who can put other mages to shame with his knowledge of portals. Theres Valtrois as well.

All we have seen Oculeth do is put his old aprentace to shame, Valtrois has the grand ability to find and rout lay lines something most mages seem capable of.

Dont forget their entire society is based on being the best damn mage you can be.

It actually was a society built around being of as high a status as possible, while magic was a good tool to gain status, it was never going to get you past the person who was out thinking you.

Both Blood Elves and Nightborn are innately skilled at using magic even for their most basic of citizens. Hell they constantly make use of arcane golems.

And I never brought that into question the debate you jumped in on was about what mages of considerable mention did the Alliance and horde have, both factions breed strong mages in good quantities (ally having Humans, Gnomes, Draenie, and the newcomers in Lightforged, Darkiron, and voidelf. Horde having Forsaken, BE, Goblins and the new addition of Nightborn.)

Draenei are also known for this, and also have their own golems. Though they seem to mostly be about putting magic in crystals to make batteries than active use of it. Not to mention their race is very limited in number, composed of a bunch of people who could fit on the Exodar. Void Elves are also a thing, but canonically they'd be about the least populace race in the game (next to the Lightborne, which are the remnants of the army of the lights last ship, which crashed at the start of Argus). They don't compare well to the Nightborne. The best case for magic you'd find amongst the Alliance is honestly, the Dark Iron I'd say. They have a great deal of skilled casters and put their magic to practical use with their army of magic golems.

There is no real question that Blood Elves and Nightborne are far more known for their skill in magic. It permeates every level of their society. Nor is there any doubt that they have more spell casters. You're so focused on big named characters, but what does Alliance have? Jaina? That's about it. And Jaina got beat down by Thaelen who wasn't even trying. Since then she's gotten the Thunder Kings power yes, but then again the Blood Elves in that same go, have god blood powered golems. Nor can you forget that the Forsaken are comparable to humans.

Most of this is true, but to be fair the Bloodelf population isn't exactly booming right now ether, Also once again don't discount the mages of stormwind who have shown grate ability in many of the alliances campaigns. As for the Nightborn yes they should now be the largest magically inclined race by numbers (maybe the hordes largest race in total, considering most of the other races of the horde [minus the forsaken whos numbers are purely based on the ability of the 4 remaining Val'kyr] are said to have smaller populations.), but after the events of the retaking of Suramar how much of that population is militarized?

As for God blood Golems, they don't have that god's blood anymore, they have normal blood Golems. after that how poerful is that compared to say A Draenie soul golem or a lightforged war mech? nether of us know because blizzard hasn't said anything on this.

as for "You're so focused on big named characters" like I said before that's what the debate was about, I never bashed the total ability of the hordes mages, just contended the point of What alive big named Alliance mages are there, which we have one, I replayed back at this point the horde have just as many (No, mages who are just there with no real history of achievement over just what they say they have done don't really count.)

And of course through all of this you're ignoring that Shamanism can topple entire cities, or the great power of Voodoo magic. And Horde certainly has a hell of a lot more in that regard. Its only getting more tilted in BfA as they're getting a civilization full of ancient magic users and gods, whereas the Alliance is getting.... boats? Boats comparable to those being used by the Zandalari who are said to have a fleet rivaling Kul Tiras?

Ignoring? did you see/read my original response to the OP? As for the Alliance we are getting "sea priests" who magically bless every Boat to have the ocean support it on the sea, as well as other normal and wild magical users. Also a good chunk of the troll gods the horde are getting are dieing due to a troll Cue/civil war.

destroying? but if when paladins, kirin tor mages and elves ranger toghether joined alliance after the appaerance of death kinghts they barely stalled the conflict...
i repeat, you are vastly overstimating the light weakness of undeads. a random crusader could cast all the spells he want, someone as an abomination or strong forsaken like old nathanos will laugh at him, damn even i as a novice forsaken could fight against them in tirisfal glades....
they hurt me? sure, they vaporize me? lol no.

Gameplay has never been a good indicator of lore strength (This magically infused knight takes forever to beat me down, but I can go east a few miles and find an over sized grub that will one shot me). by gameplay standards any run of the mill paladin could one shot any orcish death knight from yards away in Warcraft 2. That's why I pointed out that in lore skills like exorcise and turn evil where invented purely to combat the undead. The reason it didn't work on your forsaken was because that would make them far weaker to play then any other horde toon (and for awhile they did work on forsaken NPC's).

[Deleted]

Shouldn't time in the Telogrus Rift flow much faster than on azeroth? Its a destroyed world floating in the middle of the nether. I mean, consequently the Void Elves could bread generations and train for years while on Azeroth probably only months pass.

[Whitedragon]

Even at the lowest point of his power, Arthas, not yet all that empowered by souls or the lich king, bested all of histories greatest paladins, except Turalyon who wasnt there and Tirion. I think thats the closest we have to an equal battle: Death Knight Arthas vs Uther.

Ironically in Warcraft. It seems the best counter to a type of magic, is that same magic. See: Illidari and Death Knights, who were the strongest fighters against the Demons and Undead respectively.

In lore Arthas didn't fight any of them one on one if I remember right (Uthers death was said to have been caused by wave after wave of undead exhausting him, and Arthas just came in to finish the job once he had been weakened enough.). As for strongest, was it the deathknights who breached ICC? Or who shattered Frostmorn? Hell the biggest upsets the death knights caused for Arthas was when they gave away the ash bringer purifying it, when they got the champion into the ranks of Drakuru's army and had him take Drakuru out, and when they found Arthas's Heart (which has less to do with their magic and more to do with intelligence gathering.)

[omeomorfismo]

All we have seen Oculeth do is put his old aprentace to shame, Valtrois has the grand ability to find and rout lay lines something most mages seem capable of.



It actually was a society built around being of as high a status as possible, while magic was a good tool to gain status, it was never going to get you past the person who was out thinking you.



And I never brought that into question the debate you jumped in on was about what mages of considerable mention did the Alliance and horde have, both factions breed strong mages in good quantities (ally having Humans, Gnomes, Draenie, and the newcomers in Lightforged, Darkiron, and voidelf. Horde having Forsaken, BE, Goblins and the new addition of Nightborn.)



Most of this is true, but to be fair the Bloodelf population isn't exactly booming right now ether, Also once again don't discount the mages of stormwind who have shown grate ability in many of the alliances campaigns. As for the Nightborn yes they should now be the largest magically inclined race by numbers (maybe the hordes largest race in total, considering most of the other races of the horde [minus the forsaken whos numbers are purely based on the ability of the 4 remaining Val'kyr] are said to have smaller populations.), but after the events of the retaking of Suramar how much of that population is militarized?

As for God blood Golems, they don't have that god's blood anymore, they have normal blood Golems. after that how poerful is that compared to say A Draenie soul golem or a lightforged war mech? nether of us know because blizzard hasn't said anything on this.

as for "You're so focused on big named characters" like I said before that's what the debate was about, I never bashed the total ability of the hordes mages, just contended the point of What alive big named Alliance mages are there, which we have one, I replayed back at this point the horde have just as many (No, mages who are just there with no real history of achievement over just what they say they have done don't really count.)





Ignoring? did you see/read my original response to the OP? As for the Alliance we are getting "sea priests" who magically bless every Boat to have the ocean support it on the sea, as well as other normal and wild magical users. Also a good chunk of the troll gods the horde are getting are dieing due to a troll Cue/civil war.



Gameplay has never been a good indicator of lore strength (This magically infused knight takes forever to beat me down, but I can go east a few miles and find an over sized grub that will one shot me). by gameplay standards any run of the mill paladin could one shot any orcish death knight from yards away in Warcraft 2. That's why I pointed out that in lore skills like exorcise and turn evil where invented purely to combat the undead. The reason it didn't work on your forsaken was because that would make them far weaker to play then any other horde toon (and for awhile they did work on forsaken NPC's).

gameplay? im not saying that gray mobs in tirisfal glades explode when i go near them but that lorewise i, as a novice undead fresh of freemind/ressurrection, was send against scarlet crusader, even light user, perfectly fine. if light would work as you suggesting why forsakens would send their recruits agains such world ending units? this is lore, not gameplay. as is lore that paladins werent the victory card against death knight, they barely stalled the war with the help of both kirin tor mages and high elf rangers.
and even gameplay wise, to oneshot a deathknight a paladin had to use all his mana, so far to be a win card...