Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[ravenmoon]

I belive this as well. In any aspect of the new stories in 8.2 there is so much hinting towards characters from the two factions joining up. You have the large one with the elves and Jaina in Nazjatar and the cinematic. What I noticed which I thought was interesting is Gazlowe in Operation Mechagon where he says that he still gets paid good by the Alliance. "Gazlowe remarked that the partnership against the King wasn't half bad and it reminded him of how profitable working with the Alliance can be", I mean things like that. They are even trolling us majorly, or we are going to be a big happy family in the future, haha!

Yeh, after teasing it so many times, and then making the corporation rubbish by faction fighting again, finally they are going to change this. I say good riddance, the factions in wow have served the opposite effect for the gamestory and interesting developments, they've limited it, and made for awkward behaviour that often comes off as bad writing, making a lot of talented writers look like rubbish and undermining the integrity of the vast majority of the story.

All of a sudden because one group is on one faction, they completely forget about everything in their past, sometimes even forget how to communicate with others, impossible walls of hatred just spring up where there was no such intensity previously. Inventing new animosities that just feel wonky and don't make sense in terms of previous partnerships, then leading to previous lore being recast making it look like a retcon or changing stuff and fantasy people really really liked, pissing off the player base some more, just to drive a wedge because people in one faction must absolutely hate the other and have little to no relationship except for story devices which demand it, then go back to completely forgetting thir arse was saved not that long ago, by the same people that all of a sudden are so eager to chop them up for stupid reasons that don't make sense for a supposedly intelligent people.


And so it goes on, limiting everything, but the game dproduces unwilling to invest the time in the game to make it make sense and iron through, because that's just not the format of the game.

So the best decision is to change that dynamic entirely for the general lore. Once Arena and bGs became same faction, it quickly became clear that the people loving fighting most didn't care what races were their friends, they had no trouble fighting same faction team, and unlike other games, blizzard made no effort to present same faction battlegrounds as training exercise, just ignored the fact that I twas the same faction.. so if they're not willing to do things properly, why bother to keep maintain the faction divide when it's so farciacal..

one faction each race kind seeking it's own ends makes for far more interesting inter-relations where a player can really choose how he will operate.

[Aldo Hawk]

Yeh, after teasing it so many times, and then making the corporation rubbish by faction fighting again, finally they are going to change this. I say good riddance, the factions in wow have served the opposite effect for the gamestory and interesting developments, they've limited it, and made for awkward behaviour that often comes off as bad writing, making a lot of talented writers look like rubbish and undermining the integrity of the vast majority of the story.

All of a sudden because one group is on one faction, they completely forget about everything in their past, sometimes even forget how to communicate with others, impossible walls of hatred just spring up where there was no such intensity previously. Inventing new animosities that just feel wonky and don't make sense in terms of previous partnerships, then leading to previous lore being recast making it look like a retcon or changing stuff and fantasy people really really liked, pissing off the player base some more, just to drive a wedge because people in one faction must absolutely hate the other and have little to no relationship except for story devices which demand it, then go back to completely forgetting thir arse was saved not that long ago, by the same people that all of a sudden are so eager to chop them up for stupid reasons that don't make sense for a supposedly intelligent people.


And so it goes on, limiting everything, but the game dproduces unwilling to invest the time in the game to make it make sense and iron through, because that's just not the format of the game.

So the best decision is to change that dynamic entirely for the general lore. Once Arena and bGs became same faction, it quickly became clear that the people loving fighting most didn't care what races were their friends, they had no trouble fighting same faction team, and unlike other games, blizzard made no effort to present same faction battlegrounds as training exercise, just ignored the fact that I twas the same faction.. so if they're not willing to do things properly, why bother to keep maintain the faction divide when it's so farciacal..

one faction each race kind seeking it's own ends makes for far more interesting inter-relations where a player can really choose how he will operate.

I find people are arguing about this too happily.

Yes, factions undermined some storylines given how they had to treat players. But to this I only have to say that they should grow some balls and make factions loose. If only Lordaeron or Teldrassil fell in this war and they were more consequential with it, the war story would have been much better, like some magnitudes better.

However, on the other hand. I don't find that the idea of races having full hatred just because they went a certain faction is correct. This is a lore against gameplay issue. They don't simply forget languages and grow illogical hatred. That's gameplay. Lore tells us what actually happens in the world while gameplay tries to be the nearest possible to try to maintain suspension of disbelief.

Shal'dorei, for example, don't hate the Alliance, but they have an uneasy relation with the Kaldorei and a good one with the Sin'dorei. That's why they went horde. They didn't suddenly grew hatred towards all the Alliance and forgot the common language. That other thing is gameplay's fault.

[Black Goat]

No, Void Elves transformed into something else. We were there, we saw them get blasted by void energies which left them a variant.

Blood Elves changed an adjective in their name. The one physical difference noticed over time was that Blood Elves' eyes turned green, but that was because they were exposed to (but did not consume) fel energies.

The connection to the now light based Sunwell is purging the Blood Elves of this taint, as shown by the golden eyes many of them now have.

Both Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are connected to the Sunwell as they are the exact same race. Now, the sunwell may very well be slowly changing them but both groups have an identical relationship to the Sunwell. As such, any changes that the Blood Elves might be going through as a result of their connection to the Sunwell, Alliance High Elves are also going to go through.

I'm not a super lore nerd, although I heavily enjoy the Warcraft lore. I could be wrong here, but do you mind clarifying how the Alliance High Elves are connected to the Sunwell? Are they allowed into Silvermoon? If not, how are they being affected by something they've never been exposed to or haven't been exposed to in millennia? If I was a High Elf living in Dalaran or Stormwind, how does the Sunwell affect me if I've never been there? Why aren't their eyes changing from blue to yellow?

While through very obvious differences in method, I can't really understand how you're separating what the Void did to Void Elves from what the Sunwell is doing to the Blood Elves. They both have to seemingly "embrace" the magical forces being exerted upon them. It is changing them, albeit more slowly than what Void Elves endure. Both are magical evolutions and don't apply to what you and I understand as normal physics and evolutionary processes, so I can't simply write it off as if you have a degree in magical effects on elven biology. In fact, no one in this thread does. Furthermore, I don't understand how elves that have never been to Silvermoon, or haven't been there in many hundreds of years, are being effected by it. If it is an omnipresent force across Azeroth, please explain why Night Elves and Nightborne aren't affected by it.

Please explain, thank you.

P.S., I'd like to take a second to assert that people should really stop acting as if they have a Degree or PhD in Elven biology and genetics. It's okay to be stoic and stand by your opinion, but don't forget these are fictional races depicted by pixels on our TVs/monitors when debating with one another.

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I find people are arguing about this too happily.

I mean, it's a game. Perhaps you are arguing about it too defensively. Your posts do come across as rather hostile and hell-bent.

Perhaps it is you who should lighten up. After all, none of this is real.

[Doffen]

P.S., I'd like to take a second to assert that people should really stop acting as if they have a Degree or PhD in Elven biology and genetics. It's okay to be stoic and stand by your opinion, but don't forget these are fictional races depicted by pixels on our TVs/monitors when debating with one another.

Yes, that's why the obvious is also the truth. All those elves are High Elves. No transformation or anything will change that. Which is why I find it baffling that anyone would argue differently. But hey this game and characters means something to us so I guess there is that. Doesn't mean we have to fight of course, you have a point.

[ravenmoon]

I find people are arguing about this too happily.

Yes, factions undermined some storylines given how they had to treat players. But to this I only have to say that they should grow some balls and make factions loose. If only Lordaeron or Teldrassil fell in this war and they were more consequential with it, the war story would have been much better, like some magnitudes better.

However, on the other hand. I don't find that the idea of races having full hatred just because they went a certain faction is correct. This is a lore against gameplay issue. They don't simply forget languages and grow illogical hatred. That's gameplay. Lore tells us what actually happens in the world while gameplay tries to be the nearest possible to try to maintain suspension of disbelief.

Shal'dorei, for example, don't hate the Alliance, but they have an uneasy relation with the Kaldorei and a good one with the Sin'dorei. That's why they went horde. They didn't suddenly grew hatred towards all the Alliance and forgot the common language. That other thing is gameplay's fault.

They don't even have an uneasy relationship with the kaldorei, quite the opposite if you ollow all the lore, the Kaldorei save them AGAIN in 7.0, with the arcan'dor and the resistance, then in 7.1, Tyrande is suspicious , but she risks the lives of her sentinels and later on commits all the way, even if she is hesitsnat because of track record of her own people she knows quite well.

This is not the basis for uneasy at all, rather what blizzard build is the friendship of Sin'dorei with Nightborne, not the hatred or uneasiness with the kaldorei… all the things tyrande found disdainful of the nightborne when she reunites with them, like addiction and the demons they let in, the nightwell abuse l.. all of this changes.. the addiction gets cured, they oppose and fight of fhte demons and drain the nightwell.. the Nightborne and night elves have no reason to have an uneasy relationship.

But the forced faction conflict has to dumb this down and give the appearance of non-corporation, which is silly, the ngihtborne should have been great friends with both the night elves and the blood elves, especially the night elves who helped them and saved them, but because they want to pretty up the horde, the nightborne choose the blood elves and then all of a sudden cannot be friends with the nighte lves? this is what i'm talking about is messed up about the wholet hing.

Ideally, each race should be its'w own faction/group, afterall, races are actually factions, and they shouldn't be made to be bound hard and fast to an alliance or horde. If the nightborne want to work with both the sin'dorei and kaldorei, they should, this actually makes sense lore wise anyway,especially on the kaldorei side, the fact that the blood elves and night elves have allies that hate each other shouldn't stop that, and the nigthboren a perfectly poised to be the bridge between the two.. having become willing students of the teachigns of balance and harmonoythat produce the arcan'dor, yet at the same time embracing the magical fullness that the sin'dorei do, which isn't absent in the nighte lves in their reformed highborne order or the high elves and void elves.


So being horde loyal exclusive makes no sense, even if the player nghtborne will choose to fight with the horde, rather makes more snese to invent a faction that are fanatical about the blood elves and thus will do things for them thus making them playable on the horde side, equally easy and lore fitting would be to have nightborne fanatical about the kaldorei as everything about them in 7.0 showed, have those nightborne accelerate the effects of the arcan'dor and get fully restored to their kaldorei form, so that players who want to play night elf allied nightborne actually have night elf skins instead because these guys have transitioned back, and they can simply distinguish them by having arcane runes on their body and altering their idle stance, maybe throw in some of the nightborne hairstyle on the night elf model. Voila, you have nightborne on the alliance as night elves, and on the horde with the nightborne model, in a way that maeks sense, not breaking your lore and fun.


But no, such finesse is impossible, because they don't have time, and therefore must lump everything into the same category..

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm not a super lore nerd, although I heavily enjoy the Warcraft lore. I could be wrong here, but do you mind clarifying how the Alliance High Elves are connected to the Sunwell? Are they allowed into Silvermoon? If not, how are they being affected by something they've never been exposed to or haven't been exposed to in millennia? If I was a High Elf living in Dalaran or Stormwind, how does the Sunwell affect me if I've never been there? Why aren't their eyes changing from blue to yellow?

While through very obvious differences in method, I can't really understand how you're separating what the Void did to Void Elves from what the Sunwell is doing to the Blood Elves. They both have to seemingly "embrace" the magical forces being exerted upon them. It is changing them, albeit more slowly than what Void Elves endure. Both are magical evolutions and don't apply to what you and I understand as normal physics and evolutionary processes, so I can't simply write it off as if you have a degree in magical effects on elven biology. In fact, no one in this thread does. Furthermore, I don't understand how elves that have never been to Silvermoon, or haven't been there in many hundreds of years, are being effected by it. If it is an omnipresent force across Azeroth, please explain why Night Elves and Nightborne aren't affected by it.

Please explain, thank you.

P.S., I'd like to take a second to assert that people should really stop acting as if they have a Degree or PhD in Elven biology and genetics. It's okay to be stoic and stand by your opinion, but don't forget these are fictional races depicted by pixels on our TVs/monitors when debating with one another.

An even take, you have my respect. Honestly though we (the players) can only truly go by what is said by the developers as they are the creators of the game. I am not saying they've made comments that answer these questions, but there have been some developer comments related to the discussion.

On the Sunwell, one of the more recent comments made when discussing its relationship to the Blood Elves and High Elves has been said by Ion Hazzikostas - Game Director of World of Warcraft, and he said this: "So, Blood Elves kind of are High Elves with different eye colors and backstory in terms of their relationship to magic in the Sunwell."

Different. Backstory. Their Relationship.

He points out how Blood Elves and High Elves, while similar, have different backstory relating to the magic in the Sunwell.

I don't know how much more it can be pared down, but here to me it sounds like he is saying the Sunwell affects them differently. This would, in essence, explain why even in BFA the High Elves there remain onto their Blue Eyes while Blood Elves are starting to appear with Gold eyes alongside Green eyes.

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I find people are arguing about this too happily.

Yes, factions undermined some storylines given how they had to treat players. But to this I only have to say that they should grow some balls and make factions loose.

They are either setting it up to finalize that the Alliance and Horde can never be allied or they are setting it up to allow the "faction barrier gameplay" to fall.

Since it would be weird to be putting in lots of what appears to be dots that lead to a faction unity and then have nothing come of it.

So my theory is it's all misdirection to pull the rug from people's feet and stick to the status quo or actually shake up one of the foundations of the game.

Blizzard has a history of sticking to the status quo and making small iterations rather than huge ones when it comes to the foundations of the game (foundations meaning the gameplay systems of races, classes, content [quests, dungeons, raids, pvp, pet battles]). So I don't really believe we'll actually see Horde grouping with Alliance any time soon.

[Aucald]

Perhaps this is an artifact of blundering into a long-running and rather thunderous rolling debate, but one aspect of this I've always been a bit fuzzy on is the "Blood Elves are High Elves/High Elves are Blood Elves" mantra. While I don't disagree with the sentiment, I think it's a bit of an oblique reference when it comes to what the "Pro-High Elf" contingent is actually asking for - so I thought I'd seek clarification. Is it that the "Pro" contingent is looking for, specifically, playable High Elves as represented by those in the current Silver Covenant subfaction and/or the High Elves of the Allerian Stronghold (those currently led by Auric Sunchaser)? This would scan to me, at least, as even though "Blood Elves are High Elves" the Silver Covenant/Allerian factions are not the same as their Sin'dorei brothers and sisters - with a pretty wide cultural divide between the two. Prior to Legion and the advent of the Void Elves I could see an argument for silhouette being a barring factor (and this has been an argument I've made myself), but following the Allied Race additions and the removal of silhouette as a limit factor I think the door on playable SC/AS HE's is not quite as open and shut as all that, personally speaking.

But I guess that depends on whether or not I have the right read amidst all the back and forth?

[ddi2]

Perhaps this is an artifact of blundering into a long-running and rather thunderous rolling debate, but one aspect of this I've always been a bit fuzzy on is the "Blood Elves are High Elves/High Elves are Blood Elves" mantra. While I don't disagree with the sentiment, I think it's a bit of an oblique reference when it comes to what the "Pro-High Elf" contingent is actually asking for - so I thought I'd seek clarification. Is it that the "Pro" contingent is looking for, specifically, playable High Elves as represented by those in the current Silver Covenant subfaction and/or the High Elves of the Allerian Stronghold (those currently led by Auric Sunchaser)?

This. Or High Elves from Hinterlands, as another example.

The thing is, the game clearly portrays High Elves and Blood Elves as two separate groups. Never the two are conflated, you can't confuse the two unless you look form a far distance, these two groups are even portrays as foils to each other. And one group is only called as High Elves and another only as Blood Elves. This "High Elves are Blood Elves notion" only exist in the forums mostly from those who don't want High Elves to be added. Those who want High Elves refer to the only group that has ever been referred as High Elves in the game since Vanilla.

[AngerFork]

They are either setting it up to finalize that the Alliance and Horde can never be allied or they are setting it up to allow the "faction barrier gameplay" to fall.

Since it would be weird to be putting in lots of what appears to be dots that lead to a faction unity and then have nothing come of it.

So my theory is it's all misdirection to pull the rug from people's feet and stick to the status quo or actually shake up one of the foundations of the game.

Blizzard has a history of sticking to the status quo and making small iterations rather than huge ones when it comes to the foundations of the game (foundations meaning the gameplay systems of races, classes, content [quests, dungeons, raids, pvp, pet battles]). So I don't really believe we'll actually see Horde grouping with Alliance any time soon.

True as that status quo history may be in an overall sense, I feel that Blizz has largely been breaking that mold lately. Look at the Demon Hunter. Blizz went out of their way to add a ton of extra new options to DHs when they are first created. Horns, Tattoos, eye coverings...creating a DH is not nearly the equivalent of making a DK or Monk, both of which are more or less set up along player race lines (save of course for the extra face options for DK).

But it's not just that. Blizz has taken the idea of dailies and reworked them into something entirely different with WQs, but still has dailies as an option too. M+ dungeons were a pretty large iteration on the dungeon system, even if the change itself was small to what dungeons themselves were. Adding in 8+ Allied Races to the game is a pretty strong separation from the old 1-2 races when the expansion called for it idea as well. And this is before getting into things like AI powered battlegrounds or

IMO, taking down the Alliance/Horde grouping barrier is a bit of a radical change to the foundations of the game to be sure, but that doesn't mean it's over the top to do. If Blizz keeps in the faction but drops the speech/grouping/guild restrictions, Blizz could easily accomplish all they would likely need to for this.

I'd say that the story would need a lot of work to favor it, but given that Blizz just had Zandalari players work alongside Jaina to free Baine, I'm not entirely sure story is the obstacle it should be here.

[Aucald]

This. Or High Elves from Hinterlands, as another example.

The thing is, the game clearly portrays High Elves and Blood Elves as two separate groups. Never the two are conflated, you can't confuse the two unless you look form a far distance, these two groups are even portrays as foils to each other. And one group is only called as High Elves and another only as Blood Elves. This "High Elves are Blood Elves notion" only exist in the forums mostly from those who don't want High Elves to be added. Those who want High Elves refer to the only group that has ever been referred as High Elves in the game since Vanilla.

Personally speaking, I don't really have an iron on that fire - I don't care if they're added as a playable race or not to be honest. I think the crux of my confusion is pretty much what you delineated here: the thematic/social difference between "High Elves" (e.g. Silver Covenant/Allerian Stronghold/Highvale High Elves) and the Blood Elves who racially are High Elven but are also quite obviously their own nationality and society separate form the aforementioned groups.

[Aldo Hawk]

I mean, it's a game. Perhaps you are arguing about it too defensively. Your posts do come across as rather hostile and hell-bent.

Perhaps it is you who should lighten up. After all, none of this is real.

Look, Jaina touch Thrall's arm and both factions help eachother against a common enemy. And now everyone is saying that factions are gonna end.

It's not bad to speculate, but to almost say that it's confirmed is arguing about it too happily.

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But no, such finesse is impossible, because they don't have time, and therefore must lump everything into the same category..

Yeah, it's a difficult situation. However, helping the Shal'dorei was a quest with the objective of defeating Elisande and by extension, the Legion. It was not just to free and help them, however just by being in need, we, as heroes, help them. Political issues are something the players don't get to have an essay on.

However, I think the idea of a factionless wow is interesting and I would like to see it in action. No more factions getting in the middle of the storytelling.

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They are either setting it up to finalize that the Alliance and Horde can never be allied or they are setting it up to allow the "faction barrier gameplay" to fall.

Since it would be weird to be putting in lots of what appears to be dots that lead to a faction unity and then have nothing come of it.

So my theory is it's all misdirection to pull the rug from people's feet and stick to the status quo or actually shake up one of the foundations of the game.

Blizzard has a history of sticking to the status quo and making small iterations rather than huge ones when it comes to the foundations of the game (foundations meaning the gameplay systems of races, classes, content [quests, dungeons, raids, pvp, pet battles]). So I don't really believe we'll actually see Horde grouping with Alliance any time soon.

Well, who knows. Maybe Azeroth is gonna enter some kind of 'cold war' and while skirmishes still continue, peace is actively being chased by individuals and we as players could get the ability to group with the other faction or something. That would be cool.

I mean, we currently have warmode and BGs would still exist, right?

Who knows, I'm expectant too see what's the deal.

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Perhaps this is an artifact of blundering into a long-running and rather thunderous rolling debate, but one aspect of this I've always been a bit fuzzy on is the "Blood Elves are High Elves/High Elves are Blood Elves" mantra. While I don't disagree with the sentiment, I think it's a bit of an oblique reference when it comes to what the "Pro-High Elf" contingent is actually asking for - so I thought I'd seek clarification. Is it that the "Pro" contingent is looking for, specifically, playable High Elves as represented by those in the current Silver Covenant subfaction and/or the High Elves of the Allerian Stronghold (those currently led by Auric Sunchaser)? This would scan to me, at least, as even though "Blood Elves are High Elves" the Silver Covenant/Allerian factions are not the same as their Sin'dorei brothers and sisters - with a pretty wide cultural divide between the two. Prior to Legion and the advent of the Void Elves I could see an argument for silhouette being a barring factor (and this has been an argument I've made myself), but following the Allied Race additions and the removal of silhouette as a limit factor I think the door on playable SC/AS HE's is not quite as open and shut as all that, personally speaking.

But I guess that depends on whether or not I have the right read amidst all the back and forth?

Well, stating that Blood elves are High elves is correct. However the contrary is not true, given that a High elf is not a Blood elf. Even a High elf NPC (Taela Everstride) introduced in TbC states this same thing. That is mostly used by those against the request trying to derail the topic into a 'what is what', when the obvious is there slapping everyone in the damn face. Void elves were even tried to be used in that regard, but more shamefully of course.

On the other hand, what is being asked for should be resumed in High elves aligned with the Alliance. Since the idea is simple but the request is too wide (and I kinda see a problem with that).

The requested Allied race is based on any High elf that players have seen sided with the Alliance since WoW came out, but also some WCII references are being made, even if that lore just simply moved on to WCIII and after to WoW.

Ideally, the allied race should be a coalition of all the High elves that have an alignment or de facto friendship with the Alliance, but I'm afraid there is not a consensus on what the specific group should be. Some says Quel'danil, some says Silver Covenant, and others says Allerian Stronghold. Also some have mentioned about 'secret islands with High elves' or 'time traveling' but are rapidly dismissed due to not being friendly with the lore or simply not serious.

There is not much about what is being asked for, the only problem as you have pointed out, is the one group of High elves that is being referred to. And, as I said, nobody took the bother to try to make one.

[Ielenia]

When we say'High Elf' we refer back to a fantasy trope you find across fantasy.

And this is where your dishonesty is laid bare.

Because it's been pointed out to you (numerous times, in fact) that when we-- and by "we" I mean the pro-high elf community-- say "high elf", we're talking about the the groups that currently exists in the game and are separate from the blood elves, and not the average RPG 'high elf' fantasy trope.

You just admitted you never cared to learn what the other side is talking about.

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Perhaps this is an artifact of blundering into a long-running and rather thunderous rolling debate, but one aspect of this I've always been a bit fuzzy on is the "Blood Elves are High Elves/High Elves are Blood Elves" mantra. While I don't disagree with the sentiment, I think it's a bit of an oblique reference when it comes to what the "Pro-High Elf" contingent is actually asking for - so I thought I'd seek clarification. Is it that the "Pro" contingent is looking for, specifically, playable High Elves as represented by those in the current Silver Covenant subfaction and/or the High Elves of the Allerian Stronghold (those currently led by Auric Sunchaser)? This would scan to me, at least, as even though "Blood Elves are High Elves" the Silver Covenant/Allerian factions are not the same as their Sin'dorei brothers and sisters - with a pretty wide cultural divide between the two. Prior to Legion and the advent of the Void Elves I could see an argument for silhouette being a barring factor (and this has been an argument I've made myself), but following the Allied Race additions and the removal of silhouette as a limit factor I think the door on playable SC/AS HE's is not quite as open and shut as all that, personally speaking.

But I guess that depends on whether or not I have the right read amidst all the back and forth?

I'd say you pretty much hit the nail in the head, first try, in my opinion, regarding what people have been asking for.

[Traycor]

600 pages. Color me impressed!

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...I thought I'd seek clarification. Is it that the "Pro" contingent is looking for, specifically, playable High Elves as represented by those in the current Silver Covenant subfaction and/or the High Elves of the Allerian Stronghold (those currently led by Auric Sunchaser)?...

Short answer: we're wanting playable High Elves loyal to the Alliance that did not rename themselves as Blood Elves.

Long answer: Blood Elves have a complicated history that has been retconned repeatedly over many years. Originally they were all psycho, goth, fel vampires that Horde and Alliance both killed on sight. At this point, High Elves were still Alliance and were very different/distinct from the fel-cursed Blood Elves. The Blood Elves only followed Kael'thas and were only found on Azeroth if they were hunting people down to drain their magic. Quel'Thalas was completely wiped out with no survivors. Over several retcons, Blood Elves did have survivors in Quel'Thalas, and not all Blood Elves were crazy. Eventually they were not all fel vampires either. After numerous redos and changes, the Blood Elves are now considered much closer to what they once were when they called themselves "High Elves". Though the Blood Elf starting narration when you create a new character still refers to the Blood Elves as a "cursed" people.

High Elves are the ones who never went through all that. They were never cursed, psycho, fel vampires, and they never left the Alliance. Many groups of High Elves fall under this banner, including the Silver Covenant, the Allerian High Elves, the High Elves of Theramore, or the Dalaran High Elves, among others. Players might debate which group of High Elves would work best, but any of those groups could work fine.

While Silvermoon was not always politically aligned with the Alliance, the High Elf people have been aligned with the Alliance going back thousands of years to the Troll Wars. Even when Silvermoon has refused to help the Alliance, many High Elves marched to their side in multiple wars, so loyal that they ignored the Silvermoon government. These are the same High Elves that still choose the Alliance even when Silvermoon and the Blood Elves have aligned themselves with the Horde.

[FlubberPuddy]

Is it that the "Pro" contingent is looking for, specifically, playable High Elves as represented by those in the current Silver Covenant subfaction and/or the High Elves of the Allerian Stronghold (those currently led by Auric Sunchaser)? This would scan to me, at least, as even though "Blood Elves are High Elves" the Silver Covenant/Allerian factions are not the same as their Sin'dorei brothers and sisters - with a pretty wide cultural divide between the two.

Gotta echo Ielenia and ddi2. You pretty much hit the nail on the head right there.

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600 pages. Color me impressed!

Undoubtedly the most popular race discussion for the game since WoW's public existence

[Obelisk Kai]

Yes, you have denied that the Void Elves are High Elves. Several times. If there is anyone whos not posting in good faith here it must be you, page after page. This is the first time I have seen you write that Void Elves are High Elves, but you still have to add that they are a variant, even when Ion said they are another flavour, just like Blood Elves are to High Elves. As much as anyone can see what kind of person one is through a forum, I know you are to smart to not understand that they are High Elves, as they are Blood Elves gone through a Void Ritual or whatever they call it. If they are in fact recruiting, we can even call it that.

To point out that a post is not in good faith because someone doesn't agree with you is silly. You do write the same thing over and over when there is no need point doing so, I know what you mean and what your opinion is, because you have written so before.

Alleria is the one in game right now that actually looks like a proper High Elf. You have said several times that since Void Elves have changed physically, that's one reason they are not High Elves anymore. Since Alleria does in fact look like a High Elf, then what is she? You change your points depending on how it fits.

I have denied that Void Elves are High Elves in the past. And I will do so here again. Void Elves are not High Elves. Yet at the same time I have said that Void Elves are another flavour of High Elves. This is used by yourself as an example of my dishonesty.

Yet I have also explained why I can make both statements and why both are true. That your previous response isn't in good faith is not because you disagree with me, but because you disregarded the nuance of my explanation whilst at the same time acknowledging you know what I mean.

So to put it even more succinctly, when I say Void Elves are not High Elves, what I mean is that Void Elves are not High Elves in the same way most people have a mental image of High Elves. Fair skinned, blonde haired, majestic, magical elves. That isn't a Void Elf.

On the other hand, Void Elves ARE High Elves because they are transformed members of that race, another flavour of High Elf as Ion put it in the first interview, and something like a Blood Elf as he put it in the Q and A.

So Void Elves are High Elves on a racial level, albeit altered. But they are not High Elves when it comes to the cultural and aesthetic aspects that define what a High Elf is. If someone asserts that Void Elves are High Elves, that the faction wall is in fact completely broken as a result and that Alliance High Elves could therefore do no damage, that person is wrong, a Void Elf is not a High Elf in that sense. If someone says that Void Elves are another flavour of High Elf, something that is genuinely different from a Blood/Alliance High Elf yet remaining on a spectrum of 'high elfdom' then in that case yes, Void Elves are High Elves.

It is all about nuance and context and I do not appreciate your attempts to force me to conform to an either/or position to prove a point. My position is, as detailed above, more complex than that.

And Alleria is not a retort. She is a hero character, she is unique. As Anduin is unique as a sword wielding, plate armor wearing priest. Hero characters aren't bound by the same rules as player characters are. Alleria also had a specific lore behind her transformation in that she ate the heart of a fallen Naaru. Fallen Naaru are extremely rare, but if any who wish to become a Void Elf are capable of finding one and eating it's heart, then they are capable of becoming a Void Elf as she is. Remember, it is not me saying Alleria is a void elf. Alleria herself terms herself a Void Elf in the Void Elf opening quest text. As she defines herself as a Void Elf, as she has a Void Elf form, as she wields the power of the void, then she is a void elf.

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High elves are not playable, High elves are not Blood elves. High elves are not Void elves. That scapegoat is useless.

The only legitimate concern is about them being similar to Blood elves but in the Alliance, and that in itself is nonsensical.

High Elves are playable as Blood Elves as confirmed by Chris Metzen, Ion Hazzikostas and every single primary source in the game.

A High Elf variant is playable as Void Elves. Void Elves are a form of High Elf, but they are not High Elves in terms of aesthetics or culture. They are their own thing on many levels.

The concern is not about them being similar to Blood Elves. Void Elves are similar to Blood Elves. Similarity is a word that implies a level of difference. The concern is that Alliance High Elves are identical to Blood Elves and therefore undermine the faction identity of the Horde and the racial integrity of the Blood Elves. To say that concern is nonsensical is itself a nonsensical statement, as that is the precise concern Alliance High Elves were rejected over.

Simply, without thinking much about it, there are already visual differences between the two, and no Allied Race that has existed prior it's implementation got introduced without any kind of development or addition to the existing assets and aesthetics. This is why Pandaren are the perfect example. They are an actual 'neutral' (in the gameplay sense of that word) race that is the exact same 1:1 in both factions that also share the exact same path from the selection screen to the moment they choose a faction and after that they keep having the exact same E V E R Y T H I N G. They ARE the carbon-copy you so much whined about. High elves -cannot- be a 'carbon-copy'.

A High elf Allied Race simply -cannot- have or do that, and nobody wants it to have or do that.

There are no visual differences between the two groups. All skin tones used on High Elf NPCs are available to Blood Elves. The blue eye colour is not a marker of difference, as the appearance of golden eyes proves eye colour among thalassian elves can change relatively easily depending on the magical ambience they are exposed to. Alliance High Elves are not physically, aesthetically or culturally distinct from Blood Elves. They are exactly a carbon copy.

And the Pandaren example has been deployed so often I have a rote response for it. That Pandaren were designed as neutral and implemented as neutral with no faction having a prior claim on them, that they proved the concept of neutrality failed, that Blizzard was not comfortable with the loss of faction diversity that resulted from Pandaren, that Blizzard has not implemented any race as neutral since despite several opportunities to do so, that there are no neutral Allied races and that Alliance High Elves were rejected on the grounds of their impact on faction diversity, which is exactly what a neutral race would inevitably do and thereby proves they regard neutral races as not worth it.

Look, I'm trying very hard to not continue the brickpost insanity but this crap has to be answered.

No, absolutely NO.

High elves do not have an 'identical' connection to the Sunwell.


At the end of the events in Quel'danas, the Sunwell got purified by the use of the heart of M'uru, this is common knowledge, right? Anyone caring about this knows that.

Now, what happened with that? With the same heart of M'uru, Velen changed the Sunwell for good. And, let's remember a bit, that this is the same Naaru that was enslaved by the Light manipulators between the Blood elves.

High elves were -never- taught to be connected to the light of M'uru, their relation with the Sunwell is different, if anything, they draw the arcane to satiate the addiction, -IF ANYTHING-, because on the other hand, as the Quel'danil High elves show, the practice of abandoning the consumption of mana could be something that has spread to more of these who do not want to have anything to do with the Blood elves, given their tragic past from loosing the Sunwell.

High elves do not have an identical relationship with the Sunwell, they never, never ever got aligned to the light of M'uru, they only -felt- that the nature of the Sunwell -changed- if anything, they -can't- use the light from the Sunwell.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Aurora_Skycaller

Aurora Skycaller, an Elf who lived at Quel'lithien lodge and who vanished when the lodge was destroyed by the inhabitants messing around with magical artefacts they shouldn't have been.

From "In the Shadow of the Sun"

""The Sunwell is thus returned to us," Aurora said. She turned her face to the window.
"Yes," Lor'themar replied.
The Plaguelands' absolute, dead silence fell across them. Lor'themar bowed his head,
reliving his own moment of comprehension, when the last dust of battle had settled on
Quel'Danas and the Sunwell had shone majestic and proud once again. He had stared into it with
the same paralyzed expression that had now etched itself into Renthar's and Aurora's faces, and
had found no joy in its glow. He had never dreamed the price of its return could be too much to
pay.
Aurora's voice startled him. "I had wondered why the pangs of the addiction felt so eased
lately. I have not needed... help... to cope."
"The magic in the Sunwell is different now," Lor'themar said. "It may take a while for some
to adjust."
"Some, yes." Aurora reached her hand up and seemed to grasp something that Lor'themar
could not see, twisting it between her fingers as if it were a long ribbon. "I am a priestess of the
Light. I know this magic."


Why would Alliance High Elves NOT have an identical connection to the Sunwell as the Blood Elves? As has been defined time and time and time again, much to your clear chagrin and denial, Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are racially identical. For seven thousand years, every High Elf was bathed in it's radiance, sustained by it's power, and they developed a connection to the well.

And in case anyone labours under the misconception that you need to visit the Sunwell in order to partake of it's powers, that this is the reason for the pilgrimages and that the Alliance High Elves may have been blocked by the Blood Elves and thus have used 'meditation' or 'willpower' in order not to succumb, that's not how the Sunwell works.

In the 'Blood of the Highborne' novella, the Sunwell was revealed to have an infinite range that transcends time, space and even reality. No matter where the Elf is, as long as they are an unaltered thalassian elf, they have a connection to the Sunwell. Aurora, the light wielding priest, senses the change after all. And Blood of the Highborne was written by Chris Metzen himself after all.

Alliance High Elves have an addiction, same as the Blood Elves because they are the same people. And even if they weren't taught how to channel through M'uru, that clearly isn't a requisite for being able to channel the power of the Sunwell post restoration.

Let's also remember that the enslaving of M'uru was another of the reasons for why the High elves got exiled or left. They didn't liked that shit.

A political difference again.

A High elf paladin or priest uses the light the same way a Human or Dwarf does. They still believe in the light.

Wait and you think the Blood Elves don't? You should listen to Lady Liadrin in the warfront, she's a proper zealot now.The Blood Elves found their faith in the light again, and having a light based Sunwell greatly aids their ability to wield the powers of the light, but Alliance High Elves clearly have access to the same powers as In the Shadow of the Sun proves, and they mere fact that they have a connection to the well is enough to sate their addiction. As stated, the Sunwell's range is infinite. A thalassian High Elf can as much avoid being bathed in it's energies and being nourished by them as they can avoid the light of the sun...in both cases, only by taking refuge in the shadow.

This is just one of the examples on why often the usage of words from developer is bullshit. The meaning of them, more often than not, are switched from one lane to the other. Remember the 'different relation with magic and the Sunwell' from Ion Hazzikostas? 'Nonono, they have to be similar, equal and the same, or my shit drops.'

The only different relationship with magic we have evidence is for is the that which caused the initial philosophical split, whether to drain mana from living beings or not and that has been resolved. It also happens to be common knowledge amongst most players that that is what the division was about. Citing a different relationship with magic is unsurprising. Trying to invent other different relationships with magic, as you are doing here, is an attempt to pretend Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are profoundly different groups when not only is that not the case, but the answer Ion was giving when he mentioned their 'different relationship with magic' was about how Alliance High Elves didn't happen because BLOOD ELVES ARE HIGH ELVES. The small differences he cites aren't justification of how Alliance High Elves can be their own things, it's part of a small list of things the Game Developer is saying is inconsequential to the overall decision, that Blood Elves ARE playable High Elves.

It's like focusing on someone getting a year off for co-operating with the authorities for doing a crime whilst ignoring the rest of the sentencing reveals they are going to jail for the rest of their lives plus thirty years. Yeah, they got a year off. It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Also, careful with the way the golden eyes are interpreted, as we have only seen light user NPCs having these and people is drawing to conclusions super fast. However, I care much less for this subject given that in reality nobody actually wants to change the way it is.

If only light users were meant to have them, it would have been easy to limit them to Paladins and Priests. All PCs can use them with the exception of Demon Hunters. Even Warlocks, because ALL thalassian elves are connected to the Sunwell with the possible exception of the Void Elves and the Demon Hunters, both of whom were transformed.

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I'm not a super lore nerd, although I heavily enjoy the Warcraft lore. I could be wrong here, but do you mind clarifying how the Alliance High Elves are connected to the Sunwell? Are they allowed into Silvermoon? If not, how are they being affected by something they've never been exposed to or haven't been exposed to in millennia? If I was a High Elf living in Dalaran or Stormwind, how does the Sunwell affect me if I've never been there? Why aren't their eyes changing from blue to yellow?

While through very obvious differences in method, I can't really understand how you're separating what the Void did to Void Elves from what the Sunwell is doing to the Blood Elves. They both have to seemingly "embrace" the magical forces being exerted upon them. It is changing them, albeit more slowly than what Void Elves endure. Both are magical evolutions and don't apply to what you and I understand as normal physics and evolutionary processes, so I can't simply write it off as if you have a degree in magical effects on elven biology. In fact, no one in this thread does. Furthermore, I don't understand how elves that have never been to Silvermoon, or haven't been there in many hundreds of years, are being effected by it. If it is an omnipresent force across Azeroth, please explain why Night Elves and Nightborne aren't affected by it.

Please explain, thank you.

P.S., I'd like to take a second to assert that people should really stop acting as if they have a Degree or PhD in Elven biology and genetics. It's okay to be stoic and stand by your opinion, but don't forget these are fictional races depicted by pixels on our TVs/monitors when debating with one another.

Well I actually went over a lot of this in my most recent reply to Aldo, but I'll happily answer. In the Blood of the Highborne novella, written by Chris Metzen, the Sunwell is revealed to transcend time, space and all dimensions. No matter what world, or what timeline a thalassian elf is in, they are nourished by the light of the Sunwell which sustains them in the face of their addiction.

As for why their eyes aren't turning from blue to yellow, there is the gameplay reason and there is the lore reason. The lore reason is subject to much speculation and hasn't been nailed down. It is noted that among NPCs, the elves whose eyes are turning golden are Priests and Paladins. Whilst there are Priests and Paladins among Alliance High Elves, the entire population of Alliance High Elves are exceptionally low in numbers and so we are talking about a handful of individuals here.

Most Blood Elves are not Priests and Paladins after all, and their eyes remain green for the moment. In a similar fashion, the few Alliance High Elves who remain are mostly Mages (who work with the Kirin Tor) or Hunters (former Farstriders), so their eyes haven't begun to shift yet.

The gameplay reason is that Blizzard just hasn't bothered to add an Alliance High Elf Paladin npc to the game since the golden eye change was made.

[Alixie]

Blizzard wont respect the differences between Junker Gnomes and Mechagnomes. No wonder they dont care that people also wrongfully say that Blood Elves are the exact same thing as High Elves. Also, 600.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Blizzard wont respect the differences between Junker Gnomes and Mechagnomes. No wonder they dont care that people also wrongfully say that Blood Elves are the exact same thing as High Elves. Also, 600.

I feel like junker gnomes is just a regular gnome. Or maybe a class type, rather than a sub-race or whatever.

[Obelisk Kai]

Personally speaking, I don't really have an iron on that fire - I don't care if they're added as a playable race or not to be honest. I think the crux of my confusion is pretty much what you delineated here: the thematic/social difference between "High Elves" (e.g. Silver Covenant/Allerian Stronghold/Highvale High Elves) and the Blood Elves who racially are High Elven but are also quite obviously their own nationality and society separate form the aforementioned groups.

I would strongly disagree with the conclusion that they are distinct.

Blood Elves are High Elves. There is no difference in terms of culture and society between a modern Blood Elf and a High Elf of twenty years ago. In fact, in the vast majority of cases, the Blood Elves are the High Elves of twenty years ago.

Everything that defines what a High Elf is culturally is Blood Elven. Control of the Kingdom of Quel'thalas, control of the Magisters, the Reliquary, the Farstriders which are aped by the Silver Covenant, control of the Sunwell, control of the isle of quel'danas, control of Silvermoon city itself.

It is these other groups you mention, they just aren't viable alteratives. To argue they are distinct nationalities and societies is reaching. The Silver Covenant relies on the charity of Dalaran as they go about as wannabe Farstriders with their own Ranger General. Highvale is a hut, it's a nice hut as huts go, but it can't be seen as a nexus of high elf civilization...it's just a bunch of outdoorsy types living rough in the fringes of their kingdom whilst sticking two fingers up at the new regimé back home.

And the Allerian Stronghold elves were just a few elves in a primarily human settlement. We don't know where they've gone since the portal reopened and the outland campaign concluded. It's plausible many of them went back home.

If there is any difference to be found between an Alliance High Elf and a Blood Elf, it is the one Elisande pointed out, that they are diluting their bloodlines through their association with humans. At which point you may as well skip adding Alliance High Elves and just add Half Elves to fully realise that particular idea.

Overall, that really is the fundamental objection to the idea of Alliance High Elves. Not silhouettes, and that clearly hasn't been an issue since the Pandaren. It is the idea put forward by the pro High Elf community that those tiny groups of theirs are more authentic High Elves than the Blood Elves are, despite the clear degradations within those groups when contrasted with the, well, majesty of the Blood Elves.

If, as Blizzard has confirmed, Blood Elves ARE High Elves and if, as I have demonstrated, everything that defines what a High Elf is in the wider imagination is Blood Elven, then what can an Alliance High Elf be but a usurper of that role? And what entitles them to this claim in the view of the pro High Elf community?

That they are on the Alliance and not the Horde. That the Alliance somehow enables them to be the 'true' High Elves of the franchise, to claim that High Elves are not playable because there are no High Elves on the Alliance, that Void Elves aren't good enough because they don't match the aesthetic and the culture of what a High Elf is despite being a high elf variant crafted specifically for them. That is the threat Alliance High Elves pose to the Blood Elf racial identity, that is why they should not be added in their own right.

I don't believe it is too much to ask that while the factions are a thing, they are respected and that remain viable choices. If you want to play a traditional High Elf, that is a Blood Elf and you can join the Horde. If you cannot stomach the Horde, a variant high elf is available for you on the Alliance that was created specifically for that faction whilst respecting the integrity of the Horde faction and the identity of the Blood Elves. Things are therefore at their most equitable.

[Linkedblade]

how are they different? it's the same thing...

Mechagnomes are the ancestor to gnomes from before the curse of flesh. You can see them running around in Ulduar, along with mecha-earthen and mecha-vrykul.

Junker gnomes are more recent gnomes that have began to use mechanical enhancements.

They actually have a distinct appearance and lore, which High/Blood elves do not. And the fel green eyes of the blood elves is not cannon.

[baskev]

600+ pages and going.....damm

But if you read some of the pages you get the same things comming back up again and again.

So lets try to recap:

- Will they happen: Nope, blizz stated it.
- should they happen: Some say no, some say yes. There is argument for both sides.
- are blood elves , high elves?: Nope, in suramar a freaking raid boss devines them as a different sub species. Blizzard in that ingame cinametic even makes a point of making them look a bit different. And lore wise they have a different background since arthas. And before people start to get angry. Ingame lore from last expansion shows this clearly. So ingame is more cannon, the ion ( he changed his mind before), or books you read.
- reason why this thread excists: Alliance hate their allied races ( not all of them). Most of them have weak racials ( not all of them), silly looks ( not all of them), silly armor/mounts ( not all of them). And pretty much no recent to no lore at all.
And i think most alliance are not so happy with the horde, horde, horde story again....

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how are they different? it's the same thing...

like the person before me said. They are different.

1 is a full on robotic race
the other is a race that tries to replace flesh with robot parts.

For instance a person you know has a bmw. You can fit bmw doors, steeringwheel and emblem on it. But its still not a real bmw. Even if you replace most of it...at its core the brains, hearth etc are still not bmw. so it never will be a bmw.