Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ignaz]

We don't know if they can create more Void elves, we don't know -why- would anyone want to become such abomination, we don't know even if they are actually looking into doing it.

And yet you are just excusing it with an over the top guess, that is not how deduction works, since the very concept lacks root for it.

It's simple, the devs created the quest and placed playable races in there, High elves would have been on that quest if they were playable.

However, Void elves being there doesn't mean that they are confident in their numbers. In fact, I am gonna teach you a lesson about deduction:

If we know they are low in numbers, and we also know that we don't know how, why and how they can or would create more Void elves, one can't say that they are confident in their numbers, but easily say that it was a very stupid decision.

Agree. That's my point. Lousy narrative

[Manariel]

@Gurluas
You wouldn't happen to know people able to tweak with WoW models ? I think proposing pictures of a Nightfallenified High Elves could help people better picture them

[Katchii]

Wrong. The Horde blood elves are playable. Alliance high elves are not playable, and any claim otherwise is either ignorant, or dishonest.

So which one are you? Are you being ignorant, or dishonest? Considering the amount of times you've posted in this thread, I doubt your issue here is "lack of knowledge".

You're the one being dishonest here. The RACE is playable, and you know it. The faction of them that are politically aligned with the Alliance are not playable, but the High Elf race is playable in the Horde aligned High Elves that now call themselves blood Elves.

[Ignaz]

I already addressed that point. If they were really so few, then Alleria and Umbric wouldn't let them just throw their lives away. Bad development is not always the answer. Could it be, perhaps, that Void elves are not a crack squad after all, and that their numbers aren't so pathetically miserable after all?

Also, I mean... they are supposedly only 5-15 soldiers yet there are A LOT MORE Void elves in the game. Just putting that out there.

Where? Ion introduced them as such (an elite squad), never said how many were they.
so we can only understand that they are really a squad (5-15 elves)

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You're the one being dishonest here. The RACE is playable, and you know it. The faction of them that are politically aligned with the Alliance are not playable, but the High Elf race is playable in the Horde aligned High Elves that now call themselves blood Elves.

They are not the same race anymore. They are the same species but different races

[Varodoc]

Where? Ion introduced them as such (an elite squad), never said how many were they.
so we can only understand that they are really a squad (5-15 elves)

Make up your mind already. Do we know how many of them there are (5-15) or not? If it's the latter, we have nothing to discuss. If it's the former, I am telling you that there are easily 50+ Void elf NPCs in the game amongst named characters and generic NPCs. You can't say that Ion never meant to tell us how many of them there are, and then in literally the next line you proceed to claim that there can only be 5-15.

[Ielenia]

You're the one being dishonest here. The RACE is playable, and you know it. The faction of them that are politically aligned with the Alliance are not playable, but the High Elf race is playable in the Horde aligned High Elves that now call themselves blood Elves.

I'm not being disingenuous. It's explained pretty well in the very next line in my post you seem to have skipped over:

"Playable race" does not equal "actual race". In fact, "playable race" only equals "a specific group within said race". As a human, you're a Stormwind human, not "all humans", for example. As a blood elf, you're a Silvermoon blood elf, not "all elves". As a blood elf, you're not, for example, a Silver Covenant high elf. You're not an Alliance member. Etc...

It doesn't matter that Horde has playable blood elves. Because people asking for Alliance high elves do not want Horde blood elves. People who want to play as Alliance high elves want to play the group of Thalassian elves not represented by the Horde blood elves. It's such a simple concept, really.

[Aldo Hawk]

I already addressed that point. If they were really so few, then Alleria and Umbric wouldn't let them just throw their lives away. Bad development is not always the answer. Could it be, perhaps, that Void elves are not a crack squad after all, and that their numbers aren't so pathetically miserable after all?

Also, I mean... they are supposedly only 5-15 soldiers yet there are A LOT MORE Void elves in the game. Just putting that out there.

Yes, their numbers are that pathetically miserable.

Ion himself called them a crack squad, and one can even stretch it into them being a big classroom (which is basically their lore).

[Ignaz]

Make up your mind already. Do we know how many of them there are (5-15) or not? If it's the latter, we have nothing to discuss. If it's the former, I am telling you that there are easily 50+ Void elf NPCs in the game amongst named characters and generic NPCs. You can't say that Ion never meant to tell us how many of them there are, and then in literally the next line you proceed to claim that there can only be 5-15.

OK. let's say they are 50, no ... 60 or even better 70 VE. Is the same. they are very few and could even be considered endangered.
And it doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid decision to sacrifice them like that.

[FlubberPuddy]

You're the one being dishonest here. The RACE is playable, and you know it. The faction of them that are politically aligned with the Alliance are not playable, but the High Elf race is playable in the Horde aligned High Elves that now call themselves blood Elves.

This is a dishonest argument regardless because of Allied Races. If we were only ever expected to have one species (1 dwarf, 1 human, 1 troll, 1 orc) then we wouldn't have received extra copies of those races anyway and the Allied Races system would not exist.

Trying to say that "High elf as a race is available, go make a blood elf" is just as meaningless as saying "Dark Iron as a race is available, go make a dwarf" before they actually released the Dark Iron Allied Race.

[Varodoc]

OK. let's say they are 50, no ... 60 or even better 70 VE. Is the same. they are very few and could even be considered endangered.
And it doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid decision to sacrifice them like that.

Because it wasn't necessarily a stupid decision. You are starting from the assumption that it was bad writing when it could have just been Blizzard telling us that we shouldn't underestimate the numbers of the Void elves. Before that they also brought a considerable fighting force at the Battle of Lordaeron under Alleria, where the numbers of their NPCs were roughly equal to those of the other races.

I won't dismiss what Ion says, since I am not an Helfer, but I will keep in mind that yes... they are a crack squad... up to a certain point, because if a crack squad is comprised of 15 people and these guys can afford to fight in one of the most important battles of a world war, then very clearly something isn't quite right here.

[Ignaz]

This is a dishonest argument regardless because of Allied Races. If we were only ever expected to have one species (1 dwarf, 1 human, 1 troll, 1 orc) then we wouldn't have received extra copies of those races anyway and the Allied Races system would not exist.

Trying to say that "High elf as a race is available, go make a blood elf" is just as meaningless as saying "Dark Iron as a race is available, go make a dwarf" before they actually released the Dark Iron Allied Race.

better, high mountain tauren; they are the same as regular tauren only that they have other horns and tattoos. even so, they remain two different races according to blizzard, aaand they are a playable race

[FlubberPuddy]

better, high mountain tauren; they are the same as regular tauren only that they have other horns and tattoos. even so, they remain two different races according to blizzard, aaand they are a playable race

And Ion himself admitted HMT look close to Tauren because their cultures are similar, so that didn't stop them from becoming an Allied Race.

Like I've always said tho, the answer would've always been "no high elves right now" after having just come out with Void Elves. I've shown they said the same thing for Wildhammers, now we have those.

[Ignaz]

Because it wasn't necessarily a stupid decision. You are starting from the assumption that it was bad writing when it could have just been Blizzard telling us that we shouldn't underestimate the numbers of the Void elves. Before that they also brought a considerable fighting force at the Battle of Lordaeron under Alleria, where the numbers of their NPCs were roughly equal to those of the other races.

I won't dismiss what Ion says, since I am not an Helfer, but I will keep in mind that yes... they are a crack squad... up to a certain point, because if a crack squad is comprised of 15 people and these guys can afford to fight in one of the most important battles of a world war, then very clearly something isn't quite right here.

No such stupid sacrifice was necessary. That type of resource is used to immolate characters, and thus give a better development to the central characters (Gandalf, Obi Wan, Varian Wrynn!). If Blizzard had wanted to make an important sacrifice with the VE, they would all have died, not just a group. That is a real sacrifice.
The group of VE that died left nothing behind. They were a group of VE who died doing what any other mage could have done and nothing else.
It was a stupid decisión (by Blizzard and also by VE) knowing that they were so few.

[Varodoc]

No such stupid sacrifice was necessary. That type of resource is used to immolate characters, and thus give a better development to the central characters (Gandalf, Obi Wan, Varian Wrynn!). If Blizzard had wanted to make an important sacrifice with the VE, they would all have died, not just a group. That is a real sacrifice.
The group of VE that died left nothing behind. They were a group of VE who died doing what any other mage could have done and nothing else.
It was a stupid decisión (by Blizzard and also by VE) knowing that they were so few.

It wasn't stupid and it was necessary, since without that sacrifice the Alliance would have never been able to win a crushing victory at the Battle of Dazar'alor.

Also really there were several Night elves and Worgen there too, two other races which are very low population-wise and were already stretched thin (since they were also fighting at the Battle of Darkshore -- Furthermore, the Kaldorei were also recently brought on the brink of extinction). But apparently only Void elves are the problem.

[Gurluas]

@Tenebra

There is two flavors of Blood Elves playable. None of High Elves.

And VE doesn't fit the story more than the HE would have. Apart from one quest with void rift (and mages would have worked as well) and the incursion (which would have been different, obviously), everything done with them could have been done with the Silver Covenant.

I like VE but they are a mess and won't ever matter much. And WoS was certainly not development for the Draenei. It ended being some for orcs, by virtue of the Mag'hars becoming Allied Race but, just like Argus, none of WoD was used to develop our draenei. We saw their past, and as my favorite race, I was thrilled and I still think that the draenei zone here are the more beautiful in the game.

But the playable draenei did not grow thanks to it. We still don't know how they are organized, how they feel about the Horde, the LF, their life on Azeroth, rediscovering Argus. Or how the younger among them felt when they saw a world they never lived on !

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I wouldn't sever all magical classes from HE. Priests and Mages could stay, but warlocks would be replaced by shamans (wildhammers influence) or druids (kaldorei influence). Still, classes would only be : warrior, hunters, rogues, mages, priests, shaman/druid.

Of course, in reverse of VE/NB, the Horde would receive Druids of the Flame as an allied race

Also, I don't find the Nightfallen ugly. They are gaunt, yes, but a tweaked Nightfallen skeleton for High Elves could have prettier faces while retaining this emaciated appearance. Kind of like fashion models IRL.

I think removing Mages and replacing them with Shamans/Druids would underscore that the High elves are completely cut off from Arcane magic in that scenario.

On an unrelated note, I think we should introduce the term: "Thalassian Elves"

Cause that is a good overarching term for the species as a whole.

Blood elves, Void elves, High elves, Felblood elves, etc. are all Thalassian Elves.

But they're not all High elves, they originate from High elves but they have given up the name and changed both physically and culturally.
Only the ones using the High elf name should be called High elves.

However, the modern High elves have also shifted culturally from the Pre-Scourge High elves.

[Manariel]

I think removing Mages and replacing them with Shamans/Druids would underscore that the High elves are completely cut off from Arcane magic in that scenario.

On an unrelated note, I think we should introduce the term: "Thalassian Elves"

Cause that is a good overarching term for the species as a whole.

Blood elves, Void elves, High elves, Felblood elves, etc. are all Thalassian Elves.

But they're not all High elves, they originate from High elves but they have given up the name and changed both physically and culturally.
Only the ones using the High elf name should be called High elves.

However, the modern High elves have also shifted culturally from the Pre-Scourge High elves.

It could work also, to remove Mages and Warlocks. i'm not against it at all ^^

As for the Thalassian Elves, I think it's absically something like this :

Old High Elves

Main inheritors of the Old High Elves society and culture

Mostly accultured inheritors of the Old High Elves society and culture

Blood Elves

New High Elves

Wretched Felblood Void Elves

Wretched

[Katchii]

They are not the same race anymore. They are the same species but different races

Source....

Nothing we've seen so far suggests they're so different that they're completely different races. Every living adult Blood Elf used to be a High Elf, the change in name didn't happen ages ago, it happened like 15 years ago, if that.

I'm not being disingenuous. It's explained pretty well in the very next line in my post you seem to have skipped over:

It doesn't matter that Horde has playable blood elves. Because people asking for Alliance high elves do not want Horde blood elves. People who want to play as Alliance high elves want to play the group of Thalassian elves not represented by the Horde blood elves. It's such a simple concept, really.

What I said doesn't contradict what you wrote. I'm saying the race itself is already playable. I understand the argument that people want Alliance aligned High Elves and that specifically is what people want to play, I'm just reiterating the fact that the High Elf race is already an in-game playable race. The Alliance aligned faction is not playable and that's what people want.

I've already acknowledged that it's plausible lore wise for them to be playable and there's no lore reason for them NOT to be playable on the Alliance. At this point it's not about lore though, apparently, otherwise they'd already be there.

This is a dishonest argument regardless because of Allied Races. If we were only ever expected to have one species (1 dwarf, 1 human, 1 troll, 1 orc) then we wouldn't have received extra copies of those races anyway and the Allied Races system would not exist.

Trying to say that "High elf as a race is available, go make a blood elf" is just as meaningless as saying "Dark Iron as a race is available, go make a dwarf" before they actually released the Dark Iron Allied Race.

1) I never said High Elf is available, go play a Blood Elf
2) Your analogy is not accurate as Dark Iron dwarves were never represented in the line up of dwarven cosmetic options. They have a completely different aesthetic from normal dwarves. The only meaningful difference, aesthetically, between a Horde Blood Elf and an Alliance High Elf are blue eyes. A different eye color is hardly enough reason to make a completely different playable race.

[Varodoc]

Source....

Nothing we've seen so far suggests they're so different that they're completely different races. Every living adult Blood Elf used to be a High Elf, the change in name didn't happen ages ago, it happened like 15 years ago, if that.



What I said doesn't contradict what you wrote. I'm saying the race itself is already playable. I understand the argument that people want Alliance aligned High Elves and that specifically is what people want to play, I'm just reiterating the fact that the High Elf race is already an in-game playable race. The Alliance aligned faction is not playable and that's what people want.

I've already acknowledged that it's plausible lore wise for them to be playable and there's no lore reason for them NOT to be playable on the Alliance. At this point it's not about lore though, apparently, otherwise they'd already be there.



1) I never said High Elf is available, go play a Blood Elf
2) Your analogy is not accurate as Dark Iron dwarves were never represented in the line up of dwarven cosmetic options. They have a completely different aesthetic from normal dwarves. The only meaningful difference, aesthetically, between a Horde Blood Elf and an Alliance High Elf are blue eyes. A different eye color is hardly enough reason to make a completely different playable race.

Plus Blood elves will most likely receive blue eyes anyway (indeed, lorewise it's stated that the taint of the Fel will fate in time).

Also technically we already have one of the two Alliance-aligned High elves playable.

[Ignaz]

It wasn't stupid and it was necessary, since without that sacrifice the Alliance would have never been able to win a crushing victory at the Battle of Dazar'alor.

Also really there were several Night elves and Worgen there too, two other races which are very low population-wise and were already stretched thin (since they were also fighting at the Battle of Darkshore -- Furthermore, the Kaldorei were also recently brought on the brink of extinction). But apparently only Void elves are the problem.

Dude, the problem is not just the void elves, is their narrative. The essence of that sacrifice was null. They were just NPCs who died. No names, no friends, no empathize.
And the worse things is that there are more of them, so we don't have to cry for nothing

Varina was a great character: he did the same sacrifice and we cry for him. Why? Because he was well developed and we get in love with this character. We can't say the same for void elves.
That's the difference between something well done and something stinky.

[Aldo Hawk]

It wasn't stupid and it was necessary, since without that sacrifice the Alliance would have never been able to win a crushing victory at the Battle of Dazar'alor.

It is stupid if your people's numbers are those resembling a classroom or an investigation team. Or... A crack squad. It is simply nonsensical.

Also really there were several Night elves and Worgen there too, two other races which are very low population-wise and were already stretched thin (since they were also fighting at the Battle of Darkshore -- Furthermore, the Kaldorei were also recently brought on the brink of extinction). But apparently only Void elves are the problem.

Leftovers from a nation tend to be way bigger than a big classroom, being generous.