Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

this thread is a wish fest QQ, nothing more.

Well, duh.

Look, it's not my proposal, it's Ravenmoon', I think it would work, but make no mistake, I won't be as bothered anywhere near as much he or you will be. From the point of making the alliance popular and restoring the horde/alliance dichotomy he has a valid point, from any other perspective, playable high elves or non playable high elves really doesn't make much of a difference because they are playable on the horde already. it's harsh, but it's true.

Saying he has a valid point is like saying You should cut your feet off to save on shoes. IDEK with this people that claim to like WoW, yet want to make it something completely irrecognizable under a nebulous and highly subjective view of what is "better" based on wishful thinking and personal appeal. And TBH honest, any opinion on improving the game that actually negates and regresses player choice is so uncaring about how others experience the game, and as someone that advocates for more player choice across the board, I just can't fathom people actually advocating for taking options away from other people as a valid argument.

Yes, there is a balancing issue with the factions, but the solution isn't to dumb down the setting and throw nuance away.

playable high elves or non playable high elves really doesn't make much of a difference because they are playable on the horde already. it's harsh, but it's true.

Should I give you the benefit of the doubt on your ignorance about this tho? IDK man. The thing that pro HE people want is for the Ideologically and Politically Alliance High Elves to be Playable -give or take personal opinion- The whole "High Elves are Playable on the Horde" nonsense got tiresome years ago.

[Tanaria]

SNIP.

I would boost Blood Elves and Nightborne with taking Ashenvale and renaming it to Felo'Thalas.

The Sunwell Magisters, under Astalor and Rommath, teleport the Sunwell to Felo'Thalas and then both elves weave great spells, protecting Kalimdor from the Alliance.

Eldre'thalas is claimed and used by the Magisters and Arcanists, governed by Rommath and Valtrois whilst Theron and Thalyssra are in Orgrimmar on Horde business. Feathermoon Stronghold is named Sundusk Stronghold where Farstriders and Duskwatch train. Victorie of the Duskwatch and Elsia of the Horde Sunreavers, watch over Sundusk Stronghold.
Isildien is for Blood Elf Priests and Blood Knights under Liadrin.

Desolace is revamped into Nightborne land, with Tauren Druid allies.
Blood Elves enchant the former Ashenvale into an Eternal Spring with bright colours and the ever eternal sun. Felo'Thalas can also serve as a Blood Elf Mage paradise...basking in the lands of their cousins who exiled their ancestors...I'd say it's poetic justice.
The Shrine of Dath'Remar should also be teleported to Felo'Thalas as well.

All in 10.0 of course.
Maybe after we see the Draenei getting kicked off their isles, by Sin'dorei, Shal'dorei and Forsaken...perhaps led by Ranger General Brightwing, Ly'leth Lunastre & Dark Ranger Velonara.

It sounds very good to me. Horde get the founts of power as well as the Nelf lands and you Alliance players can have the nice cities.

[Mace]

You and Mace should go back to Stormwind and grow pumpkins for your human overlords.
That's all Alliance is; Humans and their pets.

You need to take a chill pill, elves aren't your property and you're not a blizzard employee. Warcraft isn't real, and you should spend more time on real life issues, you're getting far too swept upon this.

I'm tired of it, I live with Ravenmoon so I get to hear all the things he writes about first hand and we constantly discuss them. By the time you get to read about them, they've already been discussed to death verbally by this household, you have no idea what the original thoughts were - his posts are lengthy because he brings up the full end result of the discussions and all the points the discussion found some sort of agreement on.

But I'm just sick of it, which is why you barely see me here, the game and it's lore has lost most of its meaning and attraction, it's become bland and one-sided, inconsistent and it's makers don't care as much, why should I? I applaud Ravenmoon's effort to try and spice it up, but I can't' find any enthusiasm to get motivated by it. or put hopes on it working, cos it really all feels so irrelevant.. it's a bloody video game, you guys take it so far you insult each other - I use to be there with you.. too involved, to into, to busy trying to prove a point and getting lost in it all forgetting what this is all about and what makes it fun.

People are real, high elves, night elves, blood elves etc are not, why waste time over it. If Ravenmoon is right and the developers don't care enough to do something about it, why should I? If you are right about it, the game holds very little interest to me in this format, and isn't changing, so I'm not coming back = it doesn't matter.

Either way it's not worth it.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

one phrase for you:

TOO MUCH

This is way too much, we live together, but you've gone too far, and are taking too much time - you're trying to make horde fans agree with you by giving the horde stuff, it's too much.

To be honest, I think you are bending over backwards for the horde – it makes no difference to fans here, you don't understand what passion and love means, it's not rational, you could offer them the kitchen sink they wouldn’t take it, because the fact you want the high elves badly makes them think it’s worth more than it is, and because they view you as the enemy, any improvements you suggest for them would be ignored. It’s psychology. Plus some of them love it as it is no matter what. Just like some alliance fans loved high elves and always resented them going horde till this day.


You've given the horde way too much, they don’t’ need all that, nor do you need to make the alliance super. You’ve offered far too much, and they’re not even interested, improvements to orcs, trolls, goblins, Tauren, 4 more cities, Pandaren fully horde in all but name, the undead being even more powerful and prominent and then a rebuild of the blood elves and the Nightborne into something incredible? Did you read what you wrote? It’s too much, they’re already the popular faction by some distant, and it’s arguable whether the high elves return and the rise to prominence of the night elves would be enough to even the score, not to mention add all this stuff to the horde.

I would first boost the alliance with the High elves returning and raising the kaldorei up in a cool way, not ridiculously, then see how that goes, if it turns out to do extremely well then I’ll start adding more of the horde stuff bit by bit so the horde doesn’t lag behind (if that ever happens), but this can happen over time, as you raise the night elf profile, you can raise build up the undead.

But much of this would depend on how attractive high elves and cool night elves are to the alliance. And you will have to remember elves are not the only alliance race, so others will also need improvements. I think you people put too much stock in elves.

Or maybe it's blizzard's fault for making them the only really attractive models in game and under estimating how much of a driving force this is to most of their player base. They should have made elves the ugly race, I bet we won't have anywhere near this amount of fuss, even if the lore was exactly the same minus the beauty part.

I mean the level of delusion of saying "you are giving the Horde too much"... when you guys literally want to take away the identity of a horde race is hilarious. I mean it's clear you guys don't care even a little bit about the Horde, but at least Ravenmoon pretends this would be good for the Horde, or at least tries to sell that.

But yeah, you want to take away the Horde's most popular race because you don't think it fits your vision of what WoW should be, and just expect Horde people to just agree that is a sensible idea? Ridonkulous.

- - - Updated - - -

You need to take a chill pill, elves aren't your property and you're not a blizzard employee. Warcraft isn't real, and you should spend more time on real life issues, you're getting far too swept upon this.

I'm tired of it, I live with Ravenmoon so I get to hear all the things he writes about first hand and we constantly discuss them. By the time you get to read about them, they've already been discussed to death verbally by this household, you have no idea what the original thoughts were - his posts are lengthy because he brings up the full end result of the discussions and all the points the discussion found some sort of agreement on.

But I'm just sick of it, which is why you barely see me here, the game and it's lore has lost most of its meaning and attraction, it's become bland and one-sided, inconsistent and it's makers don't care as much, why should I? I applaud Ravenmoon's effort to try and spice it up, but I can't' find any enthusiasm to get motivated by it. or put hopes on it working, cos it really all feels so irrelevant.. it's a bloody video game, you guys take it so far you insult each other - I use to be there with you.. too involved, to into, to busy trying to prove a point and getting lost in it all forgetting what this is all about and what makes it fun.

People are real, high elves, night elves, blood elves etc are not, why waste time over it. If Ravenmoon is right and the developers don't care enough to do something about it, why should I? If you are right about it, the game holds very little interest to me in this format, and isn't changing, so I'm not coming back = it doesn't matter.

Either way it's not worth it.

So basically you are on a physical echo chamber with Ravenmoon, and then we get subjected to that in here. Christ on a cracker.

Like you guys really are not seeing the level of nonsense you bring here. People come to this thread for entertainment, it is about a videogame, we are all well aware, but when Ravenmoon arrives with his moon logic of course it becomes a crapshow, because you guys are spouting some of the most insane ideas and think you are being totally sensible about it?

You guys are literally on an echo chamber and seem not to care about the opinion of other people at all, and act surpised and offended when people point out how ludicrous your arguments are.

[Mace]

Should I give you the benefit of the doubt on your ignorance about this tho? IDK man. The thing that pro HE people want is for the Ideologically and Politically Alliance High Elves to be Playable -give or take personal opinion- The whole "High Elves are Playable on the Horde" nonsense got tiresome years ago.

I view the whole point of the discussion as "those who want the original alliance playable on Warcraft." This is what it's all about.

Traditionalists vs modernists.

Why badly want high elves playable on the alliance when they are available as they are on the horde? Except to want the original fantasy? I'm not going to spit on people's desires just because I am fed up of it, I have argued for high elves being playable in the past, but it seems so pointless now and meaningless, like I wasted my life on trash that meant nothing. but my trash seems to be someone elses' holy grail.

And the reason I can say Ravenmoon has a point is because I can look at the proposal objectively from the point of view of making the alliance popular and restoring the Warcraft tradition. I've heard this argument a lot more than you and have discussed it a lot more, and I am exhausted, I just don't care, if I'm honest. I've ben humouring someone I like and care for, but it honestly doesn't mean that much to me. What you have to read in essays I have had to discuss in person. Talking is much easier, but lately I have felt Warcraft is so pointless getting excited about or making an effort. It's a game, the game is enjoyable for being a game, not for how accurate the lore is on elves or dragons, or how consistent it is or the philosophy of the factions and how elf movement by affect them.


At this point, if it matters so much to their public, I'd have given high elves a long time ago and be done with it. Clearly ignoring the appeals and sticking to "the high elves are on the horde" so it's no point giving hasn't worked. The guys want it, and actually it isn't that big of a deal. According to Ravenmoon, it would be a big boost for the alliance, because of how much alliance people make a fuss over it - I am inclined to agree with that point, I am also inclined to agree with how stripping the high elf out of the blood elf will affect theme and segregate the factions more.

But I don't care, you all have arguments to make that you feel are important, you may feel that such a move will destroy what the blood elves are, you'd be right, Raven's point is that such a destruction will make the horde better give the blood elves new distinct life or the chance for it if they get developed and boost the alliance, I also agree with that.. is the destruction of the blood elf as we know them currently worth it though? or necessary? That's the main argument here.

The end result will be playable high elves, but why high elves should be playable is the sort of topic I will leave to fans more interested in the game and Warcraft currently than I am.

[Tanaria]

You need to take a chill pill, elves aren't your property and you're not a blizzard employee. Warcraft isn't real, and you should spend more time on real life issues, you're getting far too swept upon this.

I'm tired of it, I live with Ravenmoon so I get to hear all the things he writes about first hand and we constantly discuss them. By the time you get to read about them, they've already been discussed to death verbally by this household, you have no idea what the original thoughts were - his posts are lengthy because he brings up the full end result of the discussions and all the points the discussion found some sort of agreement on.

But I'm just sick of it, which is why you barely see me here, the game and it's lore has lost most of its meaning and attraction, it's become bland and one-sided, inconsistent and it's makers don't care as much, why should I? I applaud Ravenmoon's effort to try and spice it up, but I can't' find any enthusiasm to get motivated by it. or put hopes on it working, cos it really all feels so irrelevant.. it's a bloody video game, you guys take it so far you insult each other - I use to be there with you.. too involved, to into, to busy trying to prove a point and getting lost in it all forgetting what this is all about and what makes it fun.

People are real, high elves, night elves, blood elves etc are not, why waste time over it. If Ravenmoon is right and the developers don't care enough to do something about it, why should I? If you are right about it, the game holds very little interest to me in this format, and isn't changing, so I'm not coming back = it doesn't matter.

Either way it's not worth it.

Maybe your the ones who need to take a step back from this.

I mean, I meet unreasonable request with unreasonable request. So if you want Horde stuff, we take Alliance stuff and that stuff will be Night Elf lands.

Sin'dorei and Shaldorei will live on Kalimdor with all night elf lands. It's fair.
Taking the Draenei isles can come in 10.1

[Mace]

But yeah, you want to take away the Horde's most popular race because you don't think it fits your vision of what WoW should be, and just expect Horde people to just agree that is a sensible idea? Ridonkulous.

I thought he wasn't proposing removing blood elves, but rather the high elf portions of them. As far as I can read, and from what we have discussed, blood elves remain on the horde in this scenario - but maybe the problem is that you keep thinking the horde will lose blood elves, rather than just the high elven alliance themed aspects.

And yes, he is offering you far too much, the horde doesn't need any of the things he is proposing, the horde is super popular, and enjoying the lionshare of the attention and relevance, it doesn't need more stuff to orcs, trolls, goblins, etc, it certainly doesn't need blood elves and Nightborne rebuilt into some amazing race, if anything they should be developed as a co-existing group, like Dwarves and Gnomes, two separate races but effectively operating together rather than two separate unique identities, Nightborne are a night elf sub-race, not a unique race, if you take the night elf civilization out of them so it can go back to the alliance, it's no point making a full entity of them, they should be allied race level of relevance, not given more precedence and meaning than say Highmountain tauren, or Mag'har orcs, or Vulpera or even Zandalari - and this is what I mean, if they put so much effort into an elven sub-race that's not traditionally horde, while leaving or ignoring Tauren development and Mag'har orc development etc.. why not put the time they would have put into the Nightborne into other races? And just tag the Nightborne to the blood elves and leave it at that? The horde is not about the elves, it never was.. it's things like that keep people like Ravenmoon and others annoyed at the whole thing.

[ravenmoon]

one phrase for you:

TOO MUCH

This is way too much, we live together, but you've gone too far, and are taking too much time - you're trying to make horde fans agree with you by giving the horde stuff, it's too much.

To be honest, I think you are bending over backwards for the horde – it makes no difference to fans here, you don't understand what passion and love means, it's not rational, you could offer them the kitchen sink they wouldn’t take it, because the fact you want the high elves badly makes them think it’s worth more than it is, and because they view you as the enemy, any improvements you suggest for them would be ignored. It’s psychology. Plus some of them love it as it is no matter what. Just like some alliance fans loved high elves and always resented them going horde till this day.


You've given the horde way too much, they don’t’ need all that, nor do you need to make the alliance super. You’ve offered far too much, and they’re not even interested, improvements to orcs, trolls, goblins, Tauren, 4 more cities, Pandaren fully horde in all but name, the undead being even more powerful and prominent and then a rebuild of the blood elves and the Nightborne into something incredible? Did you read what you wrote? It’s too much, they’re already the popular faction by some distant, and it’s arguable whether the high elves return and the rise to prominence of the night elves would be enough to even the score, not to mention add all this stuff to the horde.

I would first boost the alliance with the High elves returning and raising the kaldorei up in a cool way, not ridiculously, then see how that goes, if it turns out to do extremely well then I’ll start adding more of the horde stuff bit by bit so the horde doesn’t lag behind (if that ever happens), but this can happen over time, as you raise the night elf profile, you can raise build up the undead.

But much of this would depend on how attractive high elves and cool night elves are to the alliance. And you will have to remember elves are not the only alliance race, so others will also need improvements. I think you people put too much stock in elves.

Or maybe it's blizzard's fault for making them the only really attractive models in game and under estimating how much of a driving force this is to most of their player base. They should have made elves the ugly race, I bet we won't have anywhere near this amount of fuss, even if the lore was exactly the same minus the beauty part.

I did suggest it in stages, every alliance boost will get some horde improvement as well, I just expect the alliance having high elves and night elves to be a lot more impactful than what the horde will get, because of their importance to a lot of the populace, as such the opportunity should be used to make the horde races more attractive. Better architecture and infrastructure for orcs and new troll sub-races that join, just like I suggested model improvements for night elves, you are making other races more attractive./

If the horde is to lose two cities, it should be gaining at least 4, because the alliance is gaining those 2. The iea is not to ravage the horde but to improve the alliance and horde, in such a way that would make the alliance more exciting and attractive, but still have the horde have new incentives to stay on it, but this time it would be for being the horde, for being orcs, trolls, Tauren, goblins and forsaken and pandas, rather than for being high elves under a horde banner or night elven Highborne types under a horde banner which are alliance attractions.

This will take a while for some to get use to, the initial allure will be to the alliance because the high elves return in a fancy and cool way and the night elves are boosted too with improvements – this is important to get the alliance going again, but while the horde loses numbers, it doesn’t lose popularity or image, and it’s image gets pushed into what its core is about, so players on it get to love the horde for being the horde, and not for having high elves on it. This would make them far happier later down the line when you write the horde as the horde and when you give horde improvements to orcs/troll/tauren etc, which doesn’t happen right now because too many are blood elf minded, and that aspect of the blood elves they like so much is high elven.

So stripping it away from the blood elves would also be a huge win for the horde, if those that love the blood elves can love them for being a tighter, meaner, less high elven group, less about fancy living in porcelain cities and more about things like power, magic, survival, etc with a harsher more imposing style to their architecture rather than pretty and flowery (which is what the blood elf and Nightborne ones are because that’s what the high elf and kaldorei civilization are), then this is very good .

You want people liking the horde for being it’s core – orcs, trolls, tauren, goblins etc.. if they get humans (in the forms of undead) and high elves (in the form of blood elves), night elves in the form of (Nightborne), you don’t want this being like their original races - which is what the blood elves and Nightborne are currently, you want them being like what the undead became, distinct enough from the original, like what the naga became, different models aside, the culture, civilization, structure of the undead and naga are very different form humans and night elves, this is what you want, and while the blood elf model won’t change, it’s culture, architecture, it’s new cities in the future can all be different and not high elven.

So the horde will feel different for being the horde.

[Mace]

Maybe your the ones who need to take a step back from this.

I mean, I meet unreasonable request with unreasonable request. So if you want Horde stuff, we take Alliance stuff and that stuff will be Night Elf lands.

Sin'dorei and Shaldorei will live on Kalimdor with all night elf lands. It's fair.
Taking the Draenei isles can come in 10.1

I have stepped back, but I think you need to as well. Take it or leave it.

[Tanaria]

I thought he wasn't proposing removing blood elves, but rather the high elf portions of them. As far as I can read, and from what we have discussed, blood elves remain on the horde in this scenario - but maybe the problem is that you keep thinking the horde will lose blood elves, rather than just the alliance aspects.

And yes, he is offering you far too much, the horde doesn't need any of the things he is proposing, the horde is super popular, and enjoying the lionshare of the attention and relevance, it doesn't need more stuff to orcs, trolls, goblins, etc, it certainly doesn't need blood elves and Nightborne rebuilt into some amazing race, if anything they should developed as a co-existing group, like Dwarves and Gnomes, two separate races but effectively operating together rather than two separate unique identities, Nightborne are a night elf sub-race, not a unique race, if you take the night elf civilization out of them so it can go back to the alliance, it's no point making a full entity of them, they should be allied race level of relevance, not given more precedence and meaning than say Highmountain tauren, or Mag'har orcs, or Vulpera or even Zandalari - and this is what I mean, if they put so much effort into an elven sub-race that's not traditionally horde, while leaving or ignoring Tauren development and Mag'har orc development etc.. why not put the time they would have put into the Nightborne into other races? And just tag the Nightborne to the blood elves and leave it at that? The horde is not about the elves, it never was.. it's things like that keep people like Ravenmoon and others annoyed at the whole thing.

The Alliance isn't about the Elves either.
All the Alliance is, is Humans and their pets in Stormwind.

And you remove nightborne and Blood Elves from their home, then nelfs are removed from Kalimdor and Lor'themar and Thalyssra primarily claim Ashenvale, renamed to Felo'Thalas and Desolace, but they also claim Eldre'Thalas, Feralas, Hyjal and other places.
Valtrois,Oculeth, Liadrin, Rommath, Victorie and Elsia manage these locations in Feralas.

Duskwatch Elites, Magister Elites and the Blood Hawks remain and protect Felo'Thalas.

Later on, they claim the Sun Gate and the Forsaken, Sin'dorei and Nightborne drive the Draenei out. Thus is led by Ranger General Brightwing, Ly'Leth of Suramar and Dark Ranger Velonara.

I have stepped back, but I think you need to as well. Take it or leave it.

I'm not the initial one coming up with unreasonable requests.

[Mace]

snip .

Tanaria, you and Ravenmoon have lost perspective.. you are arguing tit for tat, he is going out of his way to make sure the horde and alliance get equal dibs, if one faction loses something it must gain something too etc.

So are you, you think what you are suggesting is unreasonable because he is being unreasonable but your suggestion is exactly what blizzard proposed in Blizzcon BFA for the factions. But again it's tit for tat and bad story telling. You are all rather stupidly caught in a rather silly game of pleasing rather than doing what's best.

A great story won't ever give the two factions equal shares , you should be able to write one to the brink of extinction and back again, in an exciting story that has interesting things happening.. Warcraft is so bad it makes star wars look very good, but they at least manage to have sometimes the republic lose and other times the empire badly without their two factions feeling less powerful or less relevant.

Blizzard devs don't know how to write, the game is a male nerd jerk fantasy. They play their favourites to death.. they did it with classes and they did it with races and factions and still do. Look at how super muscular and rugged the males are and how super model babes the females are, like 80s cartoon hero ideas of cool, because it's what they find cool, not what is considered cool by the people they are making the game for and the cultural changes that story content and character aesthetics depends on far more than other game systems.

They're lucky that their game instincts are very good for the population but for story, aesthetics, balancing things like races etc, it's terrible, they play favourites.. and that is because thy don't take it serious. The things they do take seriously, like art, and systems they work so much more harder for and make far more calculated decisions, but as for favourites whether class or faction or race, they show these things to be not anywhere near as important and you can tell, they don't take them as seriously.

[Tanaria]

Tanaria, you and Ravenmoon have lost perspective.. you are arguing tit for tat, he is going out of his way to make sure the horde and alliance get equal dibs, if one faction loses something it must gain something too etc.

So are you, you think what you are suggesting is unreasonable because he is being unreasonable but your suggestion is exactly what blizzard proposed in Blizzcon BFA for the factions. But again it's tit for tat and bad story telling. You are all rather stupidly caught in a rather silly game of pleasing rather than doing what's best.

A great story won't ever give the two factions equal shares , you should be able to write one to the brink of extinction and back again, in an exciting story that has interesting things happening.. Warcraft is so bad it makes star wars look very good, but they at least manage to have sometimes the republic lose and other times the empire badly without their two factions feeling less powerful or less relevant.

Blizzard devs don't know how to write, the game is a male nerd jerk fantasy. They play their favourites to death.. they did it with classes and they did it with races and factions and still do. Look at how super muscular and rugged the males are, like 80s cartoon hero ideas of cool, because it's what they find cool, not what is considered cool by the people they are making the game for.

They're lucky that their game instincts are very good for the population but for story, aesthetics, balancing things like races etc, it's terrible, they play favourites.. and that is because thy don't take it serious

Always has been tit for tat.
You want to steal our stuff, we steal yours. I'm sorry, but that's how it is.

Don't like it, come up with other ideas.

I know I'm being unreasonable because I'm responding to unreasonable requests. And doing what's best is your own opinion...it's subjective. I know my ideas are gutting and hurting night elves, but you want to hurt my favorite races, so I'm going to hurt yours. I'm sorry, but until sensible ideas come to the table, then I will continue to talk about Felo'Thalas, the new name for Ashenvale that Theron claims as he drives the savage thugs that are night elves to their own deaths.

Just remember, no matter how much you or I repeat what we'd like to see what we'd like, Blizzard aren't going to do it.

Being honest, Blizzard will not deprive the Horde playerbase of a revamped Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas. They have been Horde lands far longer than they were ever Alliance areas and have always been Horde lands in WoW's life since TBC.
Before that, they were neutral, but Horde-leaning as they did eventually accept Sylvanas' aid.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I view the whole point of the discussion as "those who want the original alliance playable on Warcraft." This is what it's all about.

Traditionalists vs modernists.

Why badly want high elves playable on the alliance when they are available as they are on the horde? Except to want the original fantasy? I'm not going to spit on people's desires just because I am fed up of it, I have argued for high elves being playable in the past, but it seems so pointless now and meaningless, like I wasted my life on trash that meant nothing. but my trash seems to be someone elses' holy grail.

And the reason I can say Ravenmoon has a point is because I can look at the proposal objectively from the point of view of making the alliance popular and restoring the Warcraft tradition. I've heard this argument a lot more than you and have discussed it a lot more, and I am exhausted, I just don't care, if I'm honest. I've ben humouring someone I like and care for, but it honestly doesn't mean that much to me. What you have to read in essays I have had to discuss in person. Talking is much easier, but lately I have felt Warcraft is so pointless getting excited about or making an effort. It's a game, the game is enjoyable for being a game, not for how accurate the lore is on elves or dragons, or how consistent it is or the philosophy of the factions and how elf movement by affect them.


At this point, if it matters so much to their public, I'd have given high elves a long time ago and be done with it. Clearly ignoring the appeals and sticking to "the high elves are on the horde" so it's no point giving hasn't worked. The guys want it, and actually it isn't that big of a deal. According to Ravenmoon, it would be a big boost for the alliance, because of how much alliance people make a fuss over it - I am inclined to agree with that point, I am also inclined to agree with how stripping the high elf out of the blood elf will affect theme and segregate the factions more.

But I don't care, you all have arguments to make that you feel are important, you may feel that such a move will destroy what the blood elves are, you'd be right, Raven's point is that such a destruction will make the horde better give the blood elves new distinct life or the chance for it if they get developed and boost the alliance, I also agree with that.. is the destruction of the blood elf as we know them currently worth it though? or necessary? That's the main argument here.

The end result will be playable high elves, but why high elves should be playable is the sort of topic I will leave to fans more interested in the game and Warcraft currently than I am.

I mean no one is forcing you to participate in the conversation, you can simply step away -well, not from Ravenmoon I guess-

But as far as statements go, "I am looking objectively at this, under the subjective assumption this will the alliance popular again" Is missing several steps of logic. Like it's baffling how neither of you -in your seemingly profound discussions- seem to even consider how the playerbase would react to this, as if BE players wouldn't loose their shit if this were to happen. You are legitimately saying it's a good idea for the game to alienate the Horde's most popular race to this degree. It's hilarious how shortsighed you guys are.

I view the whole point of the discussion as "those who want the original alliance playable on Warcraft." This is what it's all about.

What you seem unable to grasp, you guys, is that you can honor a legacy while moving forward, but you act like the only way of having a real alliance experience is to see it through a specific timeframe, progression of its themes be damned.

Some people like the alliance high elves for their history and want to see what is their future, don't conflate liking high elves with a regressive and traditionalist position.

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I thought he wasn't proposing removing blood elves, but rather the high elf portions of them. As far as I can read, and from what we have discussed, blood elves remain on the horde in this scenario - but maybe the problem is that you keep thinking the horde will lose blood elves, rather than just the high elven alliance themed aspects.

No, the issue is that you guys think that removing the blood elves identity -because you think that identity belongs to the alliance- is a good and sensible idea.

Again, you literally want to strip BE's of their identity and culture and think BE players won't have an issue with it. It's baffling.

And yes, he is offering you far too much, the horde doesn't need any of the things he is proposing, the horde is super popular, and enjoying the lionshare of the attention and relevance, it doesn't need more stuff to orcs, trolls, goblins, etc, it certainly doesn't need blood elves and Nightborne rebuilt into some amazing race, if anything they should be developed as a co-existing group, like Dwarves and Gnomes, two separate races but effectively operating together rather than two separate unique identities, Nightborne are a night elf sub-race, not a unique race, if you take the night elf civilization out of them so it can go back to the alliance, it's no point making a full entity of them, they should be allied race level of relevance, not given more precedence and meaning than say Highmountain tauren, or Mag'har orcs, or Vulpera or even Zandalari - and this is what I mean, if they put so much effort into an elven sub-race that's not traditionally horde, while leaving or ignoring Tauren development and Mag'har orc development etc.. why not put the time they would have put into the Nightborne into other races? And just tag the Nightborne to the blood elves and leave it at that? The horde is not about the elves, it never was.. it's things like that keep people like Ravenmoon and others annoyed at the whole thing.

Again, you literally want to take away the identity and culture of one of the Horde's most popular races and act like you are doing the Horde a favor? FFS man, and everything because Blood Elves don't fit your version of the Horde.

This argument is tiresome even from an Horde perspective, it's exclusionary and it hangs in nonsense notions of "the real Horde", but coming from someone that doesn't even care about the Horde it's condescending.

Horde elves can keep moving forward, even uniting as a wondrous arcane civilization, that doesn't diminishes the Horde. You keep saying that the elven themes overwhelm the Horde, yet they wouldn't overwhelm the alliance? So contradictory bordering in hypocritical. Of course the Horde is not all about elves, but neither is the alliance. If you want elven supremacy say so, but no many people care to have that conversation.

[Ardenaso]

it keeps on circulating back to "elves are Alliance themed" bruh bruh bruh

the Horde has moved past its "monsters and beasts" way long ago, it's been 14 years already

[ravenmoon]

it keeps on circulating back to "elves are Alliance themed" bruh bruh bruh


the Horde has moved past its "monsters and beasts" way long ago, it's been 14 years already

The horde moving past its monsters and beasts theme doesn't stop the elves from being alliance themed. They are alliance themed because they are.


The horde can have non-monster and non-beast races, that wouldn't make them alliance themed, but if you give them high elves and night elf civilization themes, those are from the alliance.


I could not say that if the horde got Naga, San'layn, Ethereals, Pandas, Venthyr, Night Fae, Kyrians etc because those aren't alliance themed, even though Naga and San'layn come from night elves and high elves. - those incarnations are very different from high elf and night elves that the are on the alliance and from which the alliance draws it themes.

[Tanaria]

The horde moving past its monsters and beasts theme doesn't stop the elves from being alliance themed. They are alliance themed because they are.


The horde can have non-monster and non-beast races, that wouldn't make them alliance themed, but if you give them high elves and night elf civilization themes, those are from the alliance.


I could not say that if the horde got Naga, San'layn, Ethereals, Pandas, Venthyr, Night Fae, Kyrians etc because those aren't alliance themed, even though Naga and San'layn come from night elves and high elves. - those incarnations are very different from high elf and night elves that the are on the alliance and from which the alliance draws it themes.

But why does the Alliance need to stay in one format and the Horde stay in another?
Blizzard are not designing the factions to be like this and they haven't done so since TBC with the Blood Elves going Horde. Then in Cataclysm, the Worgen went Alliance and in Legion/BFA, we had races like the Void Elves and Dark Iron Dwarves, going Alliance.

All of those themes are not typically Alliance, in fact I'd say the Dark Iron Dwarves have a closer resemblance and theme to the Horde, but the idea of "theme" is one's opinion. The Blood Elves are named "grim survivors" and that idea of being a changed survivor of a recent war that saw your race butchered to near extinction is something that melds very well with the Horde, as each Horde race has, except from the Highmountain Tauren, have faced some war that nearly brought themselves to ruin or were used by a tyrant. That is something that forever ties the Horde races together, and yes - the Blood Elves and Nightborne are included in that. The only race on the Horde that doesn't are Mayla's Highmountain Tauren tribe.

[Isilrien]

...So basically you are on a physical echo chamber with Ravenmoon, and then we get subjected to that in here. Christ on a cracker.

Like you guys really are not seeing the level of nonsense you bring here. People come to this thread for entertainment, it is about a videogame, we are all well aware, but when Ravenmoon arrives with his moon logic of course it becomes a crapshow, because you guys are spouting some of the most insane ideas and think you are being totally sensible about it?

You guys are literally on an echo chamber and seem not to care about the opinion of other people at all, and act surpised and offended when people point out how ludicrous your arguments are.

I'm impressed that you're still trying. I gave up long ago on another thread because the people that are sticking to these long, rambling justifications for their head canon versus what Blizzard has actually done will never listen, understand, or change their way of thinking. Or so it seems.

[shoc]

I'm impressed that you're still trying. I gave up long ago on another thread because the people that are sticking to these long, rambling justifications for their head canon versus what Blizzard has actually done will never listen, understand, or change their way of thinking. Or so it seems.

What started as an interesting conversation about how Blizzard could implement High Elves.

We got the answer - both Alliance and Horde get High Elves via blue-eyed Blood Elves and fair-skinned Void Elves. Considering all the High Elf Void Elves I see running around every day you'd think the compromise was a success, not to mention the Void Elves are still due for a customization pass.

But... now the only people still bumping this thread are rambling walls of text that sound like racist white supremacist dog-whistling without context. Hell even WITH context its uncomfortable to watch.

[ravenmoon]

What started as an interesting conversation about how Blizzard could implement High Elves.


We got the answer - both Alliance and Horde get High Elves via blue-eyed Blood Elves and fair-skinned Void Elves. Considering all the High Elf Void Elves I see running around every day you'd think the compromise was a success, not to mention the Void Elves are still due for a customization pass.


But... now the only people still bumping this thread are rambling walls of text that sound like racist white supremacist dog-whistling without context. Hell even WITH context its uncomfortable to watch.

You should read the stuff before you judge it as ramblings or racist white supremacist dog-whistling, it is rather idiotic to make an assumption about a thing when it is right in front of you and you can examine it. But this is not about what is right, or what makes sense, nor is it about logical and rational discourse.. it's about pride, hate, envy, rivalry, covetousness, greed and selfishness... what else would cause you to dash in on a mighty high horse and make such grand judgements about your fellow fans afterall when you haven't even read what they have to say?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

You should read the stuff before you judge it as ramblings or racist white supremacist dog-whistling, it is rather idiotic to make an assumption about a thing when it is right in front of you and you can examine it. But this is not about what is right, or what makes sense, nor is it about logical and rational discourse.. it's about pride, hate, envy, rivalry, covetousness, greed and selfishness... what else would cause you to dash in on a mighty high horse and make such grand judgements about your fellow fans afterall when you haven't even read what they have to say?

Like for real, haven't your interactions on here with like... most people, clued you into the fact that you are coming across in a questionable manner? People have been both patient and real assholes with you here, but none of these interactions have caused some introspection on how you are being perceived?

You say people are not understanding what you really want to say, and tho this degree, have you considered is a flaw of intention, and not others perception of you?

I am not going to attempt to pathologize you, but you really seem to have a hard time grasping how your proposal would even affect Blood Elf and Nightborne players and their own enjoyment of the game. There's just a huge insurmountable disconnect where you seem to dismiss any perception that is not your own. Compound that to your dismissal of logical concerns about your arguments, it feels like talking to a wall.

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The horde moving past its monsters and beasts theme doesn't stop the elves from being alliance themed. They are alliance themed because they are.

And again; How can we attempt to have a constructive debate when you have such a wildly biased premise and present it as an intrinsic fact? You don't have an argument as of WHY elves are alliance themed, you treat it as self evident, even when people keep pointing out there's no such thing.