Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Fyersing]

I would have preferred Void Elves on the Horde too and Nightborne for the Alliance. The storyline could even have been tweaked to produce such a result. Instead of being instantly hostile towards the Nightborne, Tyrande could have been sympathetic and accommodating. Instead of the Void Elves being saved by Alleria, Umbric's experiments could have drawn the attention of Sylvanas who could have agreed the Void Elves would serve the Horde (despite Rommath's protestations. But as we've seen, ignoring Rommath and paying for it later seems to be a problem within the Horde).

An additional point of note is that the Horde was already home to an unscrupulous-type, Forsaken, which would've provided a platform for the Void Elves to thrive within the narrative (meaning, it'd be easy to tether Void Elves and Forsaken together as a "voting bloc" for the Horde); similarly, the Alliance is already home to a group of egregiously arrogant knife-ears, Highborne, who could've easily been utilized as a narrative springboard for the Nightborne insofar as internal politics go.

Simple. They wanted to give the Alliance a thalassian elf model in order to appease some of the sentiment for a playable High Elf. Blizzard was listening to the demand for all these years. They knew it existed. Yet the barriers I long argued (in threads that existed many years before this one) would hamper High Elves being added proved insumountable for them and they created a variant instead. Once you understand that the variant was designed as an attempted compromise, to give the Alliance something that was a bit like a Blood Elf (which is a High Elf) but with a unique flavour of it's own, you understand just how little chance there is of them going back and granting pure High Elves to the Alliance. Yes, they couldn't satisfy the hard core of High Elf fans. I don't think they ever thought they could. Every choice they make has a group of people unhappy with it. They knew they couldn't make everyone happy.

I would argue that Blizzard's internal dilemma regarding implementing playable High Elves has always been more about not disenfranchising the sizable portion of the playerbase that currently play as Blood Elves. If their primary goal was appeasing the fans of High Elves, then they'd just implement playable HE's and respond to the cries from the Horde with gems like, "you think you care, but you don't".

That is set of priorities that I, personally, can absolutely agree with. I feel like regardless of any other opinions on the subject of Blood Elves, generally, we can all agree that since they're a playable faction already (and theoretical playable High Elves aren't) they shouldn't have to worry about losing out on things that were developments to their particular narrative(s), so that Blizzard can "make room" for additional races.

I do however object to two of your statements. I see little chance of Blizzard scrapping the iconic Horde and Alliance factions and would vehemently argue against it. Scrapping the factions is one of those ideas like a third faction that most people like discussing, but know in their bones Blizzard is never going to do. Seeing people who want High Elves argue for it because it would allow them to play a non void thalassian with Allliance friends is too big a demand by far.

Agreed. It would solve this particular issue, though.

I'm curious about your thoughts on how the game might function if Alliance and Horde continued to exist, as plot devices to drive narrative development, but as much less centralized organizations and largely co-operative with each other?

You might expect to see both Horde and Alliance being represented at most/all major conflicts, each with a different perspective and approach to the issue of the day, but ultimately this doesn't affect who we (the players) can and cannot form a party/raid/guild with. I would maintain that the races remain attached to their faction, as opposed to being "free agents", but be capable of cordial relations with people from the other faction.

Secondly, your belief that the Night Elves and Blood Elves ended up on the wrong factions. When the choice was made behind the scenes to adopt a faction based approach to the game world, the Night Elves had to go somewhere, and it was never going to be the Orcs who killed Cenarius and who needed to chop down their wood in Ashenvale. Similarly the Blood Elves had to go somewhere, and it wasn't going to be with the Humans who sentenced them to death and who were appalled by their magical addiction. Each race had only one choice of two and they ended up where they were always fated to go.

And both have flourished within their respective factions, becoming mainstays of each.

They have flourished, this is true.

I'm more concerned with them being culturally asynchronous with the member-states of their respective factions. It also doesn't seem extremely far-fetched that the Night Elves would be capable of forgiving an aggression, when doing so results in them rekindling an ancient friendship (Tauren) and aligning themselves with two new races whose mannerisms mirror their own (Orcs, Trolls).

That scenario doesn't present as being any more far-fetched than Blood Elves forgiving an aggression (also perpetrated by Orcs), when doing so results in attaching themselves to the remainder of the group which annihilated their nation (Forsaken), a group which invaded and slaughtered thousands of their outlaying citizenry (Orcs), and a group that was at the time indistinguishable from their only ancestral enemies (Trolls).

I think I would've just started the game with the Night Elves on the Horde and the Forsaken on the Alliance. This followed by High Elves for the Alliance, and Ogres for the Horde, in TBC. Everything else can remain the same. The obvious problem with this being there wouldn't be any Draenei. Though, both WoD and Legion might've been adequate times to release them (as they got more story in WoD than they had in all of the content from TBC through MoP).

[RangerDaz]

It's probably best not to judge the entire community by Lionknight/WoWJedi/Runicknight's hyperbole. That individual holds those of us opposed to playable High Elves responsible for their absence, rather than Blizzard attempting to keep the factions separate and has been known to be prone to rants, one of which is memorialised in @Aeula's signature as the evidence has since been deleted.

If you wanted a pro High Elfer to debate I think @RangerDaz would be the best. I mean I utterly disagree with Daz don't get me wrong, but we have had civil conversations on this topic.

Well, i thank you for the compliment. And also for the civil discussions that we had in the past, even though we were always on the opposite side related to Alliance High Elves, lol

Unfortunately, like many other people here, i also had some not so good experiences in discussions with other posters (whether it was related to high elves or something else, because yes, i talk about lots of things here ). Sometimes i feel some people are not interested in debating ideas, but instead diminishing the person with whom they don't agree with, and this kind of attitude just keeps bringing toxicity into the forums, instead of constructive debates about the game we all like (or liked, for fans who no longer relate to the game).

Above all, we are all humans and passionate for the game, or else none of us would be or have registered accounts in these forums for fans of World of Warcraft. We can all reduce the toxicity here, if we all respect each others' opinions as discuss in a civilized way, i guess.

But saying this in the Alliance High Elves thread is probably asking too much, because this might be the most controversial issue in wow playbase in the last months I guess it never is too late to try

- - - Updated - - -

Well I guess since this thread is back to the front page

https://www.wowhead.com/news=287534/...rmor-questline

The elves reflect on what it means to be sin'dorei:


So again, Blizzard (Ion) says one thing and adds in another into the game. Scenario differentiates what being a Blood Elf means and its narrative further reinforces they don't consider themselves to be High Elves, going so far as to not imply a simple name change but more impactful identity change. That following the Light, moving forward, and putting their tragedy behind them are all core to being a Blood Elf.

Well, the evidences surely are all there!
hopefully Ion won't see it before it comes live, and doesn't force to change the script lol

[FlubberPuddy]

Well, the evidence surely is all there!
hopefully Ion won't see it before it comes live, and doesn't force to change the script lol

Yes it's still PTR data-mining so it is subjective to change. Interesting that the first iteration about it contains this though, if it does stay then that means they consider the narrative to be that High Elves aren't Blood Elves, and that Blood Elves don't identify as High Elves. Further disconnecting Blood Elf identity from what was said on the matter by Ion.

But what's even more is that it showcases how much more prominent the Light is in reverence now compared to their Arcane history.

[Obelisk Kai]

An additional point of note is that the Horde was already home to an unscrupulous-type, Forsaken, which would've provided a platform for the Void Elves to thrive within the narrative (meaning, it'd be easy to tether Void Elves and Forsaken together as a "voting bloc" for the Horde); similarly, the Alliance is already home to a group of egregiously arrogant knife-ears, Highborne, who could've easily been utilized as a narrative springboard for the Nightborne insofar as internal politics go.

So it COULD have happened. This is not to say the way things worked out wasn't plausible. The rationales for the Void Elves and the Nightborne ending up where they did make sense, but things worked out the way they did because of an underlying design decision.

I believe the reason the Nightborne exist at all, and that Suramar wasn't just filled with ordinary Night Elves, was as a quid pro quo for the existence of a Blood Elf variant going to the Alliance. See, I figure when Ion said 'high elves' back in 2014 (and at the time he wasn't accused by the pro High Elf community of being ignorant, oh no) he was just plucking popular requests out of the air in his answer.

This is what I wrote back in the day

'In fact, what EXACTLY does he say in response to a query about sub-races

"That is not currently the plan for Warlords of Draenor. Though, we've definitely heard player interest in some kind of sub-races and whether or not that means brown-skinned orcs, or High Elves or...(searches for another example of the top of his head. Interviewer says Iron Dwarves. Hazzikostas waves in an acknowledging gesture)...exactly, that could be very cool and it's something that gets our artists really excited when we talk about it.'

Absolutely nothing confirmed. Still a fantastic likelihood this will not come to pass once they sit and start looking at the drawbacks.

This is before Blizzard even builds the idea, tests it, and actually considers what sub-races they want to use. Call me in two years after Blizzcon'15 but all he's done is likely raised your hopes for nothing.

My belief was that once they sat down to actually build the system, they would realize High Elves were not viable as a choice due to being identical to Blood Elves. I later theorized that a High Elf variant was likely but that it would be probably be a form of Withered. I was wrong on the specifics, but I called what would happen dead right. They couldn't add High Elves and created a variant. And I believe Nightborne were created in response, the quid pro quo.

I would argue that Blizzard's internal dilemma regarding implementing playable High Elves has always been more about not disenfranchising the sizable portion of the playerbase that currently play as Blood Elves. If their primary goal was appeasing the fans of High Elves, then they'd just implement playable HE's and respond to the cries from the Horde with gems like, "you think you care, but you don't".

Exactly. Too often the pro High Elf community dismisses the core of the opposition, that the High Elves are already playable. That is what a Blood Elf is, a High Elf even if they no longer call themselves that. That is an important aspect for the 'feel' of being a Blood Elf. If Alliance High Elves were made playable, then by virtue of the name alone they would get to define what a High Elf is to the deteriment of the Blood Elves. The only way for a Blood Elf player to feel like a real High Elf is to retain sole ownership of the concept, as every other other race WoW owns it's own concept. Alliance High Elves would enfranchise a tiny minority, both in game and out, to define themselves as the true custodians of the trope and the Blood Elves (and Void Elves) as freaks, traitors and monsters.

That is set of priorities that I, personally, can absolutely agree with. I feel like regardless of any other opinions on the subject of Blood Elves, generally, we can all agree that since they're a playable faction already (and theoretical playable High Elves aren't) they shouldn't have to worry about losing out on things that were developments to their particular narrative(s), so that Blizzard can "make room" for additional races.

Again, agreed. This is why I believe Blood Elves should have the option to have blue eyes. It's a valid customization request and I object to the notion that they should be held in reserve for a group that is never going to be added.

Agreed. It would solve this particular issue, though.

I'm curious about your thoughts on how the game might function if Alliance and Horde continued to exist, as plot devices to drive narrative development, but as much less centralized organizations and largely co-operative with each other?

You might expect to see both Horde and Alliance being represented at most/all major conflicts, each with a different perspective and approach to the issue of the day, but ultimately this doesn't affect who we (the players) can and cannot form a party/raid/guild with. I would maintain that the races remain attached to their faction, as opposed to being "free agents", but be capable of cordial relations with people from the other faction.

Even after this war ends, does anyone really foresee a time when Night Elf and Forsaken can break bread in friendship? I don't. If anything this war is going to make things worse. It will be another cold peace.

The problem is one of perspective. We are titans of our faction, we have been called to work together with the other side from time to time. But the grunts and soldiers just see the enemy in the other side and always will. Just because some of the people at the top have glimpsed a possible better future doesn't mean that translates on the ground.

I believe the game will function as it continues to do so. Living where I do, I am a great believer in the tenacity of hate. It persists. It endures. It grows cold but can be restoked with new fuel after a time. I have never been one to accept that because the Alliance and Horde have, on occasion, found unity of purpose that it means they are destined to wither away. Not only does Blizzard have a business interest in keeping the two iconic factions going, but a lot of players are invested in those factions as well in a way I rarely see in other video games but I would actually find the story MORE unbelievable if they buried the hatchet and began living in harmony.

They have flourished, this is true.

I'm more concerned with them being culturally asynchronous with the member-states of their respective factions. It also doesn't seem extremely far-fetched that the Night Elves would be capable of forgiving an aggression, when doing so results in them rekindling an ancient friendship (Tauren) and aligning themselves with two new races whose mannerisms mirror their own (Orcs, Trolls).

That scenario doesn't present as being any more far-fetched than Blood Elves forgiving an aggression (also perpetrated by Orcs), when doing so results in attaching themselves to the remainder of the group which annihilated their nation (Forsaken), a group which invaded and slaughtered thousands of their outlaying citizenry (Orcs), and a group that was at the time indistinguishable from their only ancestral enemies (Trolls).

I think I would've just started the game with the Night Elves on the Horde and the Forsaken on the Alliance. This followed by High Elves for the Alliance, and Ogres for the Horde, in TBC. Everything else can remain the same. The obvious problem with this being there wouldn't be any Draenei. Though, both WoD and Legion might've been adequate times to release them (as they got more story in WoD than they had in all of the content from TBC through MoP).

Yet while people would have accepted those scenarios if the lore had been written in such a way to support them, that is the past now. Same with Alliance Nightborne and Horde Void Elves, it could have worked right up until the moment the decisions were made and the stories became canon rather than proposition. Now they are impossible what might have beens.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, i thank you for the compliment. And also for the civil discussions that we had in the past, even though we were always on the opposite side related to Alliance High Elves, lol

Unfortunately, like many other people here, i also had some not so good experiences in discussions with other posters (whether it was related to high elves or something else, because yes, i talk about lots of things here ). Sometimes i feel some people are not interested in debating ideas, but instead diminishing the person with whom they don't agree with, and this kind of attitude just keeps bringing toxicity into the forums, instead of constructive debates about the game we all like (or liked, for fans who no longer relate to the game).

Above all, we are all humans and passionate for the game, or else none of us would be or have registered accounts in these forums for fans of World of Warcraft. We can all reduce the toxicity here, if we all respect each others' opinions as discuss in a civilized way, i guess.

But saying this in the Alliance High Elves thread is probably asking too much, because this might be the most controversial issue in wow playbase in the last months I guess it never is too late to try

Indeed, this is one of the more toxic subjects in the game and it is hard to have a proper discussion on it. But we can but try.

Well, the evidences surely are all there!
hopefully Ion won't see it before it comes live, and doesn't force to change the script lol

Not necessarily. Remember, nomenclature is unimportant. The name change was to signify a recognition that things won't be the same for them anymore. But in every important aspect, culture, theme and even biology they are the same people as they were before the invasion.

They are still Elves. They still make pilgrimages to the Sunwell. Thematically they are the standard Tolkien style elf trope with a warcraft spin. Word of God confirms that just because they changed their name, it doesn't mean they aren't High Elves. Importantly, it just reaffirms that the difference between the Blood Elves and the Alliance High Elves is eye colour, an adjective and an ideology.

That isn't enough to argue the Alliance High Elves are a worthy Allied race, which they aren't, only that the Alliance High Elves possess a different ideology.

[Andromedes]

Indeed, this is one of the more toxic subjects in the game and it is hard to have a proper discussion on it. But we can but try.

Says someone, who is pleased that high elf fans arent satisfied with Ion's uneducated responses on that matter, where he contradicts himself with existence of void elves. But because he said it, it means it is true. Also having his quote in signature clearly shows, that you want to have civil discussion.

What i mean by Ion contradicting himself?

Jesse Cox: ''Are there any major hubs which high elf adventurers can come from? I dont think so''
Ion: ''I dont think so. They have been assimilated to other cultures'' (even though they had to create hub for void elves on space rock, because they had no hubs, they didnt even exist. While High elves have established places, where they could come from.)

Also Ion: ''High elves? Blood elves are pretty much High elves. Void elves are pretty much another flavor of High elves ''(which means Blood elves and Void elves are just flavors, which means Blood elves are void elves are high elves by that logic.)

Also Ion: ''High elves are basically blood elves with different eye color, different backstory in terms of their relationship with magic and sunwell, by giving them to alliance, it would blur the lines. Also there is no clear example of who or what high elves are as a larger group that still remains in Azeroth. We just met Alleria for the first time, but they are not out there in a same way.'' (But an Actual BLOOD ELVES, who are dipped in void arent bluring faction lines, even though they have blood elven culture, and their main difference is skin color, which is basically just blood elf death knight skin color. Void elves, who are just elite crack squad somehow count as functional race with example of who they are, but somehow Silver covenant doesnt qualify to be high elven faction with common purpose or characteristics.)

[Obelisk Kai]

Says someone, who is pleased that high elf fans arent satisfied with Ion's uneducated responses on that matter, where he contradicts himself with existence of void elves. But because he said it, it means it is true. Also having his quote in signature clearly shows, that you want to have civil discussion.

What i mean by Ion contradicting himself?

Jesse Cox: ''Are there any major hubs which high elf adventurers can come from? I dont think so''
Ion: ''I dont think so. They have been assimilated to other cultures'' (even though they had to create hub for void elves on space rock, because they had no hubs, they didnt even exist. While High elves have established places, where they could come from.)

Also Ion: ''High elves? Blood elves are pretty much High elves. Void elves are pretty much another flavor of High elves ''(which means Blood elves and Void elves are just flavors, which means Blood elves are void elves are high elves by that logic.)

Also Ion: ''High elves are basically blood elves with different eye color, different backstory in terms of their relationship with magic and sunwell, by giving them to alliance, it would blur the lines. Also there is no clear example of who or what high elves are as a larger group that still remains in Azeroth. We just met Alleria for the first time, but they are not out there in a same way.'' (But an Actual BLOOD ELVES, who are dipped in void arent bluring faction lines, even though they have blood elven culture, and their main difference is skin color, which is basically just blood elf death knight skin color. Void elves, who are just elite crack squad somehow count as functional race with example of who they are, but somehow Silver covenant doesnt qualify to be high elven faction with common purpose or characteristics.)

The desire for a civil discussion does not preclude me taking pleasure in my side of the argument clearly winning (and having the Game Director restate your point of view in public as the team's own is a win, no matter how much you would like to rationalize it away), nor am I going to deny that certain posters becoming unhappy at not getting what they wanted was an occasion for some well deserved schadenfreude, but only in regards to those individuals.

As for your complaints regarding Blizzard's official statements on the matter, it all boils down to a simple truth. High Elves aren't playable on the Alliance because they are playable on the Horde, no matter what they now call themselves. Void Elves are the attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf, which is a High Elf yet has it's own flavour and doesn't step on Blood Elf toes. Void Elves are treated differently because they are different. That's the entire point.

[FlubberPuddy]

This is why I believe Blood Elves should have the option to have blue eyes. It's a valid customization request and I object to the notion that they should be held in reserve for a group that is never going to be added.

Even if this did happen it shouldn't necessarily disregard High Elves from happening, but this is besides the point.

Main thing I want to point out here is that if it does indeed keep being held out of reach (Blue Eyes for Blood Elves) then there must be some reasoning for why Blizzard is doing it so. My guess? The simplest one: Blue eyes are being used to signify High Elves, therefore this will be kept unique to differentiate that group. Whether they become playable or not is of no consequence, since currently that's being used to show the difference between the two physically.

Just as very soon we'll have Night Elves who will be "Night Warriors" defined only by Dark Blue Eyes, with a slightly off-color skin. That's enough to distinguish them from regular Night Elves.

I'll go on to extrapolate that we also will never see Wildhammer Dwarf tattoos added to current playable Dwarves, because that is their unique signature in how Blizzard portrays "this is a Wildhammer" vs "this is a Bronzebeard".

I think that while Blizzard does make a lot of gameplay concessions, they are also very conservative about upholding their aesthetics and differentiations (hence Ion claiming high elves not 'unique' enough to warrant an AR atm, similar answer was given about WH dwarves).

So the argument that "it's never going to be added therefore it shouldn't stay unique to NPCs" is a flawed one, since Blizzard can intentionally be doing it to keep things flavorful/unique.

Blood Elves with Green Eyes is just way too iconic at this point, even if in this discussion many BE players are piping up now to say Blue Eyes should also be available because "we're the real high elves per Ion" it's not something iconic to Blood Elves and hasn't been since their release in World of Warcraft. Ion can keep being brought up, but what a developer says vs what is actually added to the game is a whole other ballpark.

The only way for a Blood Elf player to feel like a real High Elf is to retain sole ownership of the concept, as every other other race WoW owns it's own concept.

This is another issue I've been seeing a lot with the anti-HE peeps. "feel like a real High Elf" when the game, and now heritage armor scenario goes out of its way to showcase what it means to be a Blood Elf. This is what makes me believe why there is so much toxicity from Blood Elf players who are involved in this conversation. Because the truth is that most want to "feel like a real High Elf" when in fact they should be trying to own the Blood Elf concept. But these players come off as not wanting to, and that's where I see a lot of the opposition for getting High Elves added to Alliance coming from.

Nevermind that Blood Elves focus much more on the Light now rather than Arcane, that they're much more pragmatic than idealistic, that they kept themselves xenophobic. Nope, they want to "feel like real High Elves" by dismissing what makes their character a Blood Elf and rally for their past society.

The heritage armor scenario shows this for Blood Elves as that is what it's meant to do, but already I keep seeing so many Blood Elf players brushing it off as if didn't add anything new.

This is like if Night Elf players made their characters out to be Highborne when that is a relic of their past and they don't have the claim to it anymore. Hence why Nightborne are filling out that niche.

[aikanaro]

what... this whole forum just makes me cringe... high elves ARE blood elves. Lor'Themar is 100% high elf and so was kael'thas, if you read the lore they just renamed themselves blood elves. either way, i wouldnt play an elf if i wasnt forced to play them.. lol (paladin in bc and now demon hunter). the only "difference" between them anasthetically is the color of the eyes, which blizzard now made blood elves able to have the gold eyes.... so there you go.

[Andromedes]

As for your complaints regarding Blizzard's official statements on the matter, it all boils down to a simple truth. High Elves aren't playable on the Alliance because they are playable on the Horde, no matter what they now call themselves. Void Elves are the attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf, which is a High Elf yet has it's own flavour and doesn't step on Blood Elf toes. Void Elves are treated differently because they are different. That's the entire point.

And as i said, void elves are blood elves. They ride hawkstriders, they speak thalassian, they look like blood elves. Your arguments boil to one thing. That skin color makes them different. Blood elf death knights are still blood elves. They arent Death elves. Blood elf Demon hunters are still Blood elves, not Fel elves. Void elves are still blood elves no matter how they call themselves.

Death knights, Demon hunters and Void elves share common things. Their skin color is different, they are elite squad, they are all blood elves infused with different powers. My point is, that we just play blood elves with different skin color, as oposed to race, that was with alliance all the time and had time to develop their culture. Sure skin color is bigger disctinction than eye color, but void elves are culturally blood elves. So we got horde race anyway.

[FlubberPuddy]

My point is, that we just play blood elves with different skin color, as oposed to race, that was with alliance all the time and had time to develop their culture. Sure skin color is bigger disctinction than eye color, but void elves are culturally blood elves. So we got horde race anyway.

Obelisk will most likely tell you that he doesn't like that Void Elves are a thing either but now that they're here nothing can be done about that. Which is funny because the same thing could be said (and I think he has said) about if High Elves were to get added as well. It's not something that would make any reasonable person stop playing/enjoying the game. Although I'm sure people will lash out regardless.

Also indeed you are apt with your comparison to those other types of Blood Elves. Umbric also states in game that his people (and he refers to Blood Elves here) shouldn't have left the Alliance in the first place and tells the Void Elf player to continue working towards proving loyalty to the Alliance while at the same time believing that one day "the Horde's grip on our land will be broken, and the Children of Quel'Thalas will stand united once more". This indicates him being a Blood Elf still.

[NutellaCrepe]

what... this whole forum just makes me cringe... high elves ARE blood elves. Lor'Themar is 100% high elf and so was kael'thas, if you read the lore they just renamed themselves blood elves. either way, i wouldnt play an elf if i wasnt forced to play them.. lol (paladin in bc and now demon hunter). the only "difference" between them anasthetically is the color of the eyes, which blizzard now made blood elves able to have the gold eyes.... so there you go.

Cringiest post in almost 400 pages of posts ^

[Obelisk Kai]

And as i said, void elves are blood elves. They ride hawkstriders, they speak thalassian, they look like blood elves. Your arguments boil to one thing. That skin color makes them different. Blood elf death knights are still blood elves. They arent Death elves. Blood elf Demon hunters are still Blood elves, not Fel elves. Void elves are still blood elves no matter how they call themselves.

Death knights, Demon hunters and Void elves share common things. Their skin color is different, they are elite squad, they are all blood elves infused with different powers. My point is, that we just play blood elves with different skin color, as oposed to race, that was with alliance all the time and had time to develop their culture. Sure skin color is bigger disctinction than eye color, but void elves are culturally blood elves. So we got horde race anyway.

No, the void energies coursing their veins, the voices they hear, the tentacles they grow AND their skin colour makes them different. They are void mutants. They were Blood Elves but due to an event which you can experience, they are now different from Blood Elves. In the same way a Lightforged Draenei is not a regular Draenei as they got blasted with light energy. As Highmountain Tauren are not Mulgore Tauren as they carry the blessing of Cenarius and have antlers. In other words, the Void Elves carry something physically fundamental that differentiates them from ordinary Blood/High Elves.

The Demon Hunter and Death Knight example is a good counterpoint, with the exception that those are defined as classes and not as races. Blood Elf Demon Hunters share their condition with Night Elf Demon Hunters and at some point in the future, the pool of races available to Demon Hunters will probably be expanded. Blood Elf Death Knights share their condition with all the other Death Knights, no matter the race, who were granted this necromantic powers and broke free from the Lich King.
Blood Elf Death Knights and Blood Elf Demon hunters are distinct from ordinary Blood Elvesl, but their distinctions are not based on their race but on their class. In other words, Death Knights and Demon Hunters are not distinct racial groupings, nor are they intended to be.

Void Elves clearly are. There are no Void Dwarves or Void Orcs or Void Night Elves. There are simply void infused thalassian elves. The distinction between them and Blood/High Elves is not only physical. Culturally they are not identical Blood/High Elves, as by necessity they must not have a connection to the Sunwell, nor would they be expected to venerate the light and they instead seem to be exalting the void. These are not unexpected developments. However, the cultures are roughly similar even if they have their own bells and whistles.

As Ion said, 'Something that feels like a Blood Elf, but has it's own unique flavour'.

It is these differences, both physical and the cultural focus on the void over the light, that differentiate Blood/High Elves from Void Elves and allow Void Elves to be their own thing. Similarity is the basis for the justification of an Allied race after all, but being exactly the same defeats the point.

This is why Void Elves are a thing, and Alliance High Elves are not. Because one is provably different and one is identical to an existing race except in terms of political ideology.

It is a curious cognitive dissonance at play here, attempting to prove Void Elves are somehow identical to Blood Elves (so as to render the rational for rejecting Alliance High Elves moot) whilst at the same time insisting Alliance High Elves are different from Blood Elves and are viable as an Allied race. It's a two pronged approach with each prong in tension with the other, but one that is easily resolvable. Blood Elves look exactly like one of the two groups...and the other group has schizophrenia and optional tentacles.

[Magnagarde]

It makes this entire thing all the more ridiculous considering blood elves have been implemented largely because Asian fans needed pretty elves to feel good while playing Horde. This is how they ruined the Horde for so many others who don't play for the pretty Asian character models, but now have to put up with elves added because these elves were added out of wrong reasons in the first place.

You lot are basically arguing about something that Asian aesthetic appetites decided on, not the lore, not the reasoning behind cultural differences, not the plausibility through population number or anything else.

[Andromedes]

No, the void energies coursing their veins, the voices they hear, the tentacles they grow AND their skin colour makes them different.

Demon hunters, fel energies coursing through their veins, they must control themselves to hold their demon within, the horns they grow and dark demonic skin color with fel cracks.. They should be different race and call themselves, a fel elves.
They are no longer blood elves, because they are infused with different power, right? /s

It doesnt matter if they are classified as class and void elves as a race. It is the same thing.

Void elves are still the blood elves. Having different source of magic and skin color doesnt make them separate race. Same as supposedly high elves are still blood elves despite having different source of magic and eye color. The end. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...om-blood-elves

[NutellaCrepe]

Alliance's warfront shield mage NPCs are High Elves.

But if you want High Elves, the Horde is waiting for you.

[derpkitteh]

The desire for a civil discussion does not preclude me taking pleasure in my side of the argument clearly winning (and having the Game Director restate your point of view in public as the team's own is a win, no matter how much you would like to rationalize it away), nor am I going to deny that certain posters becoming unhappy at not getting what they wanted was an occasion for some well deserved schadenfreude, but only in regards to those individuals.

As for your complaints regarding Blizzard's official statements on the matter, it all boils down to a simple truth. High Elves aren't playable on the Alliance because they are playable on the Horde, no matter what they now call themselves. Void Elves are the attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf, which is a High Elf yet has it's own flavour and doesn't step on Blood Elf toes. Void Elves are treated differently because they are different. That's the entire point.

hazzikostas has never given a legitimate defense against adding them.

literally the only slightly reasonable thing i've seen said about it is that it'd probably drain the horde population by a lot, since most of the horde is blood elves that would switch to helf.

their approach to magic is different from blood elves, their outlook on life in general is different, their political leanings are far different.

blood elves idealize doing whatever it takes to survive, and while the majority of the populace is averse to fel, it's not illegal and some are practitioners.

there's also the population argument. as in, there's no argument anymore. lightforged? not exactly a thriving group. void elves? you're literally just one of umbric's followers from before their exile. you're not one of the new ones being trained, because they're NOT going to purposefully corrupt people like that.

[Andromedes]

literally the only slightly reasonable thing i've seen said about it is that it'd probably drain the horde population by a lot, since most of the horde is blood elves that would switch to helf.

And that is debunked, because high elves are supposedly requested by few high elven fanatics. Also if high elves were locked behind some reputation gate, not many people (or guilds according to doomsayers) would migrate to alliance.

[FlubberPuddy]

And that is debunked, because high elves are supposedly requested by few high elven fanatics. Also if high elves were locked behind some reputation gate, not many people (or guilds according to doomsayers) would migrate to alliance.

Not to mention that if "Void Elves are our High Elves" then we should've seen a huge population shift to Alliance right?

Nope, the disparity between Horde and Alliance has gotten even bigger at 120 than it was at 110. What used to be a 5% disparity in favor of Horde is now at least a 10% disparity in favor of Horde.

What's interesting though is that Void Elves are the 4th most populous race on Alliance, beating out Dwarves, Gnomes, and Worgen which have been in the game for far longer. Whereas on Horde side Nightborne and Highmountain Tauren still pale in comparison to the non-Allied Horde races. Only Nightborne beating out Goblins, and Highmountain coming out least in all of them.

Interestingly, Lightforged Draenei do not beat any of the other Alliance races out in population at 120.

I can only imagine the greater popularity High Elves pop numbers would've achieved. It's obvious the "High Elf" model is very well done.

https://realmpop.com/us.html (Move sliders to 120)

[Fyersing]

Void Elves clearly are. There are no Void Dwarves or Void Orcs or Void Night Elves. There are simply void infused thalassian elves. The distinction between them and Blood/High Elves is not only physical. Culturally they are not identical Blood/High Elves, as by necessity they must not have a connection to the Sunwell, nor would they be expected to venerate the light and they instead seem to be exalting the void. These are not unexpected developments. However, the cultures are roughly similar even if they have their own bells and whistles.

They're certainly more unique, biologically, than people often give them credit for.

It's fairly common to see things like, "Void Elves are just Blood Elves who bit off more Void than they could chew, and it corrupted their bodies". It isn't a strictly inaccurate generalized statement, but I fail to understand the purpose (in the context of someone using it to justify playable High Elves) -- especially if the intent it to suggest that taking [Race #1], and subjecting some of them to some magical calamity in order to provide the narrative foundation for [Race #2], is somehow a terrible design philosophy.

If it's "terrible narrative" when Blood Elves get dipped in Void, why isn't it "terrible narrative" for Dark Iron Dwarves, or Worgen, or Lightforged Draenei, or Nightborne, or even Mag'har Orcs (who would be a reversal of a calamitous event, in this case)?

Personally, I can't find a single issue with Void Elves as a standalone group. That isn't really what the question in these last few hundred pages has been about, though, is it? Instead, the question being asked is generally, "are Void Elves close enough to High Elves that they will be widely considered to be an acceptable stand-in for the latter?"

I suspect the answer, for the time being, is "no".

It is a curious cognitive dissonance at play here, attempting to prove Void Elves are somehow identical to Blood Elves (so as to render the rational for rejecting Alliance High Elves moot) whilst at the same time insisting Alliance High Elves are different from Blood Elves and are viable as an Allied race. It's a two pronged approach with each prong in tension with the other, but one that is easily resolvable. Blood Elves look exactly like one of the two groups...and the other group has schizophrenia and optional tentacles.

This only really applies to the physical appearance angle of the discussion. If you focus very specifically on the culture/mannerisms of the groups in question, it's almost eerie how much the Void Elves resemble the Burning Crusade-era Blood Elves.

As you have said, different bells and whistles to distract the eye, but that's about all these is to differentiate them behaviorally. The two groups have obviously come to different political conclusions, and have a different level of comfort with risk/reward scenarios, but ultimately they are behaviorally identical. I would even go so far as to say that Void Elves are "more Blood Elf than Blood Elves", in the sense that their current mindset mirrors that of the pre-SWP Blood Elves. They're hot-headed, reckless, unscrupulous, in some cases aggressive, and with a tilt towards being unhinged (Island Expedition Lady, looking at you).

- - - Updated - - -

Void Elves clearly are. There are no Void Dwarves or Void Orcs or Void Night Elves. There are simply void infused thalassian elves. The distinction between them and Blood/High Elves is not only physical. Culturally they are not identical Blood/High Elves, as by necessity they must not have a connection to the Sunwell, nor would they be expected to venerate the light and they instead seem to be exalting the void. These are not unexpected developments. However, the cultures are roughly similar even if they have their own bells and whistles.

They're certainly more unique, biologically, than people often give them credit for.

It's fairly common to see things like, "Void Elves are just Blood Elves who bit off more Void than they could chew, and it corrupted their bodies". It isn't a strictly inaccurate generalized statement, but I fail to understand the purpose (in the context of someone using it to justify playable High Elves) -- especially if the intent it to suggest that taking [Race #1], and subjecting some of them to some magical calamity in order to provide the narrative foundation for [Race #2], is somehow a terrible design philosophy.

If it's "terrible narrative" when Blood Elves get dipped in Void, why isn't it "terrible narrative" for Dark Iron Dwarves, or Worgen, or Lightforged Draenei, or Nightborne, or even Mag'har Orcs (who would be a reversal of a calamitous event, in this case)?

Personally, I can't find a single issue with Void Elves as a standalone group. That isn't really what the question in these last few hundred pages has been about, though, is it? Instead, the question being asked is generally, "are Void Elves close enough to High Elves that they will be widely considered to be an acceptable stand-in for the latter?"

I suspect the answer, for the time being, is "no".

It is a curious cognitive dissonance at play here, attempting to prove Void Elves are somehow identical to Blood Elves (so as to render the rational for rejecting Alliance High Elves moot) whilst at the same time insisting Alliance High Elves are different from Blood Elves and are viable as an Allied race. It's a two pronged approach with each prong in tension with the other, but one that is easily resolvable. Blood Elves look exactly like one of the two groups...and the other group has schizophrenia and optional tentacles.

This only really applies to the physical appearance angle of the discussion. If you focus very specifically on the culture/mannerisms of the groups in question, it's almost eerie how much the Void Elves resemble the Burning Crusade-era Blood Elves.

As you have said, different bells and whistles to distract the eye, but that's about all there is to differentiate them behaviorally. The two groups have obviously come to different political conclusions, and have a different level of comfort with risk/reward scenarios, but ultimately they are behaviorally identical. I would even go so far as to say that Void Elves are "more Blood Elf than Blood Elves", in the sense that their current mindset mirrors that of the pre-SWP Blood Elves. They're hot-headed, reckless, unscrupulous, in some cases aggressive, and with a tilt towards being unhinged (Island Expedition Lady, looking at you).

[Andromedes]

They're certainly more unique, biologically, than people often give them credit for.

It's fairly common to see things like, "Void Elves are just Blood Elves who bit off more Void than they could chew, and it corrupted their bodies". It isn't a strictly inaccurate generalized statement, but I fail to understand the purpose (in the context of someone using it to justify playable High Elves) -- especially if the intent it to suggest that taking [Race #1], and subjecting some of them to some magical calamity in order to provide the narrative foundation for [Race #2], is somehow a terrible design philosophy.

I was just talking about how Ion contradict himself, it wasnt supposed to justify high elves over void elves. Just saying that anything ion used against high elves, could be used against void elves as well.