Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[protip]

And precisely zero people believe, based upon your previous posts, that you were explicitly making a statement about their physiology. In any case, let's examine you're new-and-improved-now-100%-more-accurate-edited version:

As I suspected, another falsehood.

Are you a Thalassian who has aligned himself/herself with the Alliance, believing that Quel'thalas joining the Horde was a terrible mistake? You're a High Elf.
Are you a Thalassian who has aligned himself/herself with the Horde, believing that Quel'thalas joining the Horde was a great choice? You're a Blood Elf.

You can't really get more clear than that.

That's exactly my point. There's no depth, because everything else about them is the same between both groups, or is not consistent throughout the group. You're being awfully rude for someone who can't see the forest through the trees.

[Fyersing]

No other proposed Allied race in the game requires such an examination of 'nuance' to justify them. I believe 'temperament' has actually been used by some posters in an attempt to manufacture a difference, with High Elves being portrayed as 'nobler' to the more arrogant Blood Elves. Which of course begs the question, would kinder green Orcs qualify as an Allied race of their own accord?

The implication being made is that their temperamental differences and functionally unique cultural norms (be them inherited from their allies, or simply new formulated), would directly lend themselves to completely distinct cultural manifestations. Thus, it isn't the fact that these are "kinder, blue-eyed Blood Elves" that is necessarily what should be focused upon, but rather how divergent could "kinder, blue-eyed Blood Elves" be (realistically) after an 11-12 year period?

As well, building off the the last response I made to you regarding your posited timeline for High Elves/Blood Elves, it is just as plausible that the cultural distinctions between High Elves and Blood Elves are centuries old as it is that they're only 11-12 years in the making.

Leaving that aside, Protip is correct. Biologically, thematically and culturally, Blood Elves and High Elves are a homogenous group with the sole difference being their political opinion. In any debate, nuance can be important. But this particular debate revolves around that nuance and trying to use something small and insignificant to pretend Alliance High Elves are an entirely different category from the Blood Elves, which they are not as it was confirmed by the developers that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

This is clearly not something the Alliance-side questing designer(s) agrees with, considering they've described them very clearly as culturally distinct for the entirety of World of Warcraft -- visually, I'd agree with you if we're just considering them as they exist now, but nobody who proposes playable HE's seriously (meaning with all due consideration to the Horde and Blood Elf playerbases concerns) is actively asking for them to look anything like Blood Elves, culturally or biologically.

I don't think folks who are serious about High Elves are angry with the fact that Blizzard decided to alter their standard physiology before implementing Void Elves; rather, I think they're angry because:

1) The group they altered was Blood Elves. Not only were they not even remotely related to the political grouping that people have asked for since 2004, but Blizzard then continued to demonstrate that this political grouping is still active and engaged (there are literally High Elf NPC's present in every major engagement and in every major hub).

2) The cosmological catalyst was the Void. A fundamentally dangerous power, which probably would've made more sense on groups who were known for dabbling in dangerous stuff (Void Elves being a Horde-aligned Allied Race would've addressed this, specifically).

I sincerely doubt you'd find a whole lot of dislike for the exact same thing happening to any playable High Elves. I could easily see the Alliance playerbase being entirely alright with the Silver Covenant finding themselves unfortunate enough to be subjected to a transformative calamity, similarly to the Void Elves, whereby they're dropped in a vat of [Insert Cosmological Energy Here], they'd be fine as long as that power doesn't directly contrast with their cultural proclivities.

Arcane (in a raw form, or maybe "Crystalline" as has been mentioned herein).
A type of element (Water-based, Ice-based, Air-based, Lightning-based, Earth-based, Fire-based, etc.).
Elune (unlikely, but possible).
A totally Spirit-based take, might be interesting, and directly play into HE Shamans.

That's exactly my point. There's no depth, because everything else about them is the same between both groups, or is not consistent throughout the group. You're being awfully rude for someone who can't see the forest through the trees.

There's nothing rude about telling you you're factually incorrect. I'm sorry you were born in the generation where being disagreed with prompts either violence or shirking back into your safeplace, but there's nothing I can do about that from my end.

[protip]

There's nothing about telling you you're factually incorrect. I'm sorry you were born in the generation where being disagreed with prompts either violence or shirking back into your safeplace, but there's nothing I can do about that from my end.

I don't mind people pointing out when I'm "factually incorrect," but you insulted me personally over a trivial error in wording that didn't even have any bearing on my post. In your most recent post, you are again hurling pointless insults without basis. You are the one who is out of line here.

[FlubberPuddy]

Disclaimer: Sorry for the large amount of texts, this is just a discussion topic I very much enjoy and like dissecting. But I understand it can be fatiguing with large amounts of text. Hence, no rush. I take my time with these, so should everyone else.

That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that Blood Elves and Alliance high elves do not fit neatly into two groups. Mulgore tauren and Highmountain tauren are not only from different tribes, but one of them has been blessed by Cenarius in a way the other was not. Nightborne were descended from the Highborne, a group with divergent physical and magical characteristics that were compounded by 10000 years of a different way of life. Even the Wildhammer dwarves are a group with a distinct shared heritage and culture that. On the other hand, everything that binds the various groups of high elves to each other binds them equally to the Blood Elves. The one exception is their political allegiance, which does not constitute a different culture or any kind of physical difference. If a high elf claims to be a Blood Elf, it is true.

Blood Elves and High Elves very easily fit into two groups: One fights for the horde, and the other fights for the alliance. That's as basic as you can get with High Elves and Blood Elves. There are further differentiations which I've stated already: non-glowy eyes, paler skin/hair, and of course the iconic blue eyes.

Those truly are all that is needed to differentiate between a High Elf and a Blood Elf. Again, outside of this discussion topic, no one gets confused by what is a High Elf when High Elves are talked about and what is a Blood Elf when Blood Elves are talked about. This only gets brought up by people trying to undermine the discussion and disingenuously refer to "High Elves the race" when what is being requested is "High Elves the group". The ones that still use that namesake in WoW to this day, and currently exist on Alliance and are only not playable.

I really don't how you can lump Wildhammers in with Nightborne and Highmountain Tauren here. Even some player perception of Wildhammer Dwarves echoes what's said about High Elves: they're not worth a slot, slap some tats on Bronzebeards and call it a day. That's very similar to High Elves aren't worth a slot, slap some blue eyes on Blood Elves and call it a day.

When I use Nightborne as an example it is meant to showcase that your point of comment about how "unique combos of things that already exist" is a unique option it itself. I am not using Nightborne to say that there isn't a long span of time to explain their differences.

Nor do I use Highmountain Tauren as a way to say their lore makes their tribes similar to Mulgore Tauren. I use HMT to show that the outcome of such an Allied Race can be as little as 1 iconic feature (Antlers) + addition of tattoos and that's enough for Blizzard to make them an AR.

So I'm not sure what you were trying to mean when you brought up the stories that explain the differences of Nightborne and HMT. As we see with Void Elves, Blizzard can very easily come up with lore to explain any addition of an Allied Race. With that said, more lore-related response below.

There are high elves who lived in Dalaran and became Blood Elves. There are high elves who served with the Alliance in the Second War and became Blood Elves. There is nothing that a high elf can be that a Blood Elf cannot. For that reason, any part of high elf culture reserved for an Alliance allied race should instead be available as Blood Elf customization, because Blood Elves share that culture and players are already invested in the Blood Elf playable race.

That there are High Elves from Dalaran who went with Kael and returned as Blood Elves means nothing. The main point is, before the identity "Blood Elves" existed, there was already a difference of culture and identity between the majority of High Elves that lived in Dalaran/around Humans and those majority of High Elves that stayed in Quel'thalas (this latter group being the huge majority of High Elves that eventually become Blood Elves).

If High Elf and Blood Elf culture were the literal same then such a schism would not have occurred between the two groups. Every High Elf would be identifying as a Blood Elf. That's not what happened. And it's not simply due to not wanting to suck magic out of beings and etc. Again, there were already differences in mannerisms and personalities between the majority of those staying in Dalaran vs the majority of those staying in Quel'thalas. How can you refute this? When even Kael'thas points it out himself within Chronicles Ver 3. When it was written in a book that even Vereesa would get made fun of by her Quel'thalas friends for spending so much time around humans.

Culture is not solely physical alterations. Trying to regulate it this way does no favors. Looks will always be an easy thing to fall back on sure. Visuals help, of course they do. But not every Allied race is drastically different than its predecessor so trying to argue that each Allied Race must be wholly different is disingenuous. I mean the fact that you talk about Wildhammer being a group with distinct shared heritage and culture. That's practically the same with High Elves and Blood Elves.

And there are things that Blood Elves can't be that High Elves are. 1) The biggest is the reliance on the Sunwell. 2) The reliance on magic within their group. These are huge factors that are not prevalent among High Elves but will always be prevalent and relevant to Blood Elves. A 3) is their faction loyalty: Blood Elves seemingly are staunchly supportive of Horde, while High Elves most certainly are not and are in fact staunchly supportive of the Horde's rival.

Splitting what should be a single race's customization options into multiple allied races is unfriendly to players as is, but splitting those options between the two factions introduces visual inconsistency on top of that. I don't think it's a good option for the game overall.

Well this would hold more weight were it not for the recent various developer comments on 1)High Elf fantasy among the Alliance being possible (Alex Afrasiabi) 2) Cool ideas being thought up for Wildhammers (Jeremy Feasel) 3)High Elves not being in BFA doesn't mean they'll never happen (Ion Hazzikostas).

1) Shows that the developers aren't adverse to giving Alliance "something like a High Elf feeling". Yes the context was in VE customization, but this does show definitively that Blood Elves would not have access to "any part of high elf culture reserved for Alliance" as you put it.

2)This shows that the developers aren't adverse to allowing 3rd iteration of a playable race type, one that is also much more similar to an already playable type. The brainstorming of ideas shows that Blizzard will simply do more than "slap some tats to already playable dwarves" when it comes a similar race type.

3)While again, this is hearsay, but if it was relevant enough for Obelisk to bring up it's relevant enough for the discussion going forward. Which is to say that Ion saying, "it doesn't mean High Elves will never happen" means that I do not ever see Blood Elves gaining anything that would relate them to what High Elf identity is maintained on in the Alliance. It also shows, along with Alex's commentary, that people who want High Elves on Alliance have a chance of that happening (in what form - we do not know), but that possibility still exists.

As always, there are those that aren't okay with the idea. But there are also those that would absolutely love the idea. We can see from recent Blizzard developer comments that they are more open to the possibility for playable High Elves on Alliance than before.

[Beloren]

That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that Blood Elves and Alliance high elves do not fit neatly into two groups. Mulgore tauren and Highmountain tauren are not only from different tribes, but one of them has been blessed by Cenarius in a way the other was not. Nightborne were descended from the Highborne, a group with divergent physical and magical characteristics that were compounded by 10000 years of a different way of life. .

Why do people keep referring to nightborne as "Descendant" and as "highborne" - do they have no idea of the lore?

Nightborne are not descendants, they are original night elves that have had their bodies warped by the excessive consumption of arcane energy. They are not a society of descendants, most of them were born normal night elves. In fact, I would be shocked if a shal'dorei and kaldorei child were not identical, the warping only taking place as they mature and start consuming arcwine - quests particularly tell us the little children are not permitted to drink it till they are older.

Nightborne were not all highborne, Elisande and the group she led to erect the shield over the city were, but not everyone there - the city is a standard night elf community of their pre-sundering era, elites were highborne, normal citizens, incl servants etc were not.


I mean are you people clueless? I mean I watched the same cinematic everyone did and read the same lore in the night elf section of the Chornicles Volume 1 - played the same quests.

Nightborne have highborne - they are not highborne.
High elves are highborne, all of them - well technically they are highborne descendants, only night elves are highborne, when they are thalassian they are high elf - that's why 2 separate words are used. But that's being pedantic.

We use highborne for night elves, whether kaldorei or shal'dorei - there are highborne existing amongst them who stayed highborne from the sundering, and all Thalassian elves are kin to ALL night elves, highborne is not a separate species of elf or night elf, it is just a caste. The highborne race are the high elves - and that word is no longer associated with their current status, instead high elf is used.

[FlubberPuddy]

I sincerely doubt you'd find a whole lot of dislike for the exact same thing happening to any playable High Elves. I could easily see the Alliance playerbase being entirely alright with the Silver Covenant finding themselves unfortunate enough to be subjected to a transformative calamity, similarly to the Void Elves, whereby they're dropped in a vat of [Insert Cosmological Energy Here], they'd be fine as long as that power doesn't directly contrast with their cultural proclivities.

Arcane (in a raw form, or maybe "Crystalline" as has been mentioned herein).
A type of element (Water-based, Ice-based, Air-based, Lightning-based, Earth-based, Fire-based, etc.).
Elune (unlikely, but possible).
A totally Spirit-based take, might be interesting, and directly play into HE Shamans.

I count myself among this. If High Elves had been under unfortunate circumstances doused with Void Energies aka "I didn't ask for this" then I would secede myself from this discussion. I wouldn't have entered it in the first place because I would see that Blizzard made these Alliance loyal High Elves into Void Elves and that this is their story going forward.

That is not what we received though, we received some unheard group of Blood Elves -that sure, weren't agreeable to joining the Horde- that didn't have the years of dedicated build up to the Alliance that High Elves have had since WoW's inception and who continue to be sported among Alliance troops.

Follow that up with the recent developer commentaries on High Elves and it's easy to see more and more that Void Elves do not relate to what makes High Elves interesting in their own right.

Sure, I can see how some may see High Elves as a basic, boring option but there's a huge audience for that (one just has to look at the race/class combo breakdowns for this).

[Beloren]

Anyway, why do people care so much about having high elves and others care so much about making sure they never happen?

it's madness. Blizzard has done far more offensive stuff, and also not done stuff which you should consider as offensive.

[Strippling]

Well talk about a non sequitur honey! If your counter argument to anything is "WELL HIGH ELVES AREN'T GOING TO BE PLAYABLE" It's pointless arguing with you about anything.

As for blurring "faction identities" it's rather silly that in a game about FACTION WAR the division is arbitrarily made by race rather than you know... politics.

Also "look sexy on a mog" Sigh, when peoople even after all this time don't even get why others want High Elves just really show a profound lack of comprehension or even understanding. Is it willful? People have spend so much time explaining all the lore reasons they want High Elves, and that you keep dismissing it as "wanting to look sexy" downright tells us you are not listening to anything is being said to you, and that you have already made your mind about why people wanting HE in a way that fits your narrative.

You don't want to have a discussion, that is obvious, you just want to be right.

"Look sexy on mog" was confirmed when a multitude of high elf fans were happy with the possibility of void elfs getting high elf customization (following Alex's comment). IF it were about the lore, the vast majority of high elf fans would have opposed this idea. Instead, only a small minority don't like the idea as opposed to the many who would be happy with a high elf skin for void elfs. That my friend, suggests it was always about the aesthetics (and subsequently the xmog). So how about look at the whole picture before tooting your horn.

FACTION WAR in this game has PREDOMINANTLY been race based, not political. Politics have always been an aside. The RTS series literally started as orcs vs humans (ie race vs race). It then expanded on several other races in WCIII and subsequently WoW. Yes, there are some politics behind the scenes... but you are delusional if you think faction war has nothing to do with races. In the case of high elfs, they already exist in the Horde. There is a small subset of high elfs in the Alliance, with differing views to their kin in the Horde... but the fact that Blizz specifically introduced void elfs shows that even they agree that races are a major factor that divide the factions.. not politics.

I'm down for a discussion...just not with someone who gets their knickers in a knot so easily.

- - - Updated - - -

The developers are clearly biased towards the Horde. Ion mains an Orc Shaman (enough said). The developers constantly make fun of the fact that Alliance mounts in this expansion are pathetic. The developers even insulted at a personal level Alliance PVP players at Blizzcon 2018. So long as these people are in charge of the game, High Elves will never be playable.

You do realize it's well known that the Alliance give up on PVP (in bg's and warmode) frequently. How is Blizz insulting the Alliance when all the did was merely acknowledge this factual reality? They introduced AI to assist the Alliance (who frequently give up) and said your welcome. If you don't want Blizz's intervention, then don't run away from PVP.

- - - Updated - - -

No I was saying it's splitting hairs to say that the AR system is to bring about unique options, and then say only thing High Elves would bring is a "unique combination of things that exist", because that by definition would be unique and the Nightborne are a prime example of this. Let's take each of your Nightborne points and test High Elves against this:

Unique model: Already pointed out differences between them and Blood Elves, this also isn't taking into consideration extra customization that would be added on top once becoming playable.

Again, the difference between HMT and Mulgore Tauren is Antlers vs Horns, and Tattoos. Dark Iron Dwarves did not have fiery-wicked beards nor tattoos before becoming playable. You can't be someone that is okay with those additions/variations and then say High Elves must strictly stay the same way they are. Even Nightborne got additional hair colors once they became playable.

The model is the easiest thing to change around.

Fantasy: This one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic. As well as being the minority of their people and choosing loyalty to friends over family, they represent a different moral choice. That's very compelling and this isn't expressed by any current playable race.

Architecture: High Elves have been shown to have architecture similar to Blood Elves with a blue paint job instead, I'll agree there. But they've also been relegated to Lodges as well; lodges that look more Night Elf and clearly not Blood Elf. This is another "easier thing" Blizzard can emphasize/change: the use of lodges for High Elf architecture.

Story: This is another easy one, the High Elf story on Alliance following the split of High Elves and Blood Elves has been different. We already know from Chronicles that even before the split of identities (Blood Elf vs High Elf) there was already a different cultural/personality mindset between those High Elves who lived in human lands/kingdoms (like Dalaran) and those High Elves who stayed within the walls of Quel'thalas. That's strong seeding right there. It's been emphasized through WoW and just needs more brushing up if they become implemented as an Allied Race.

In response:

Unique model - NB are more unique than what HE would be.

Fantasy - Quote from you "this one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic". Vareessa and Alleria are both haughty and extremely proud. High elfs in general are stuck up (like BE) and believe they are better than their kin. Their attitudes are ultimately the same. Can't really argue there. Plus they hold grudges. Again, same. So no, you're wrong here.

Architecture - A lot of their architecture is the same as BE (just different coloring). No uniqueness there. Their lodges are similar to night elf architecture... again, no uniqueness.

Story - This is the only one where there is some uniqueness. But A) this can be developed via NPCs and B) their story is minor and really only a subset of the main thalassian story (ie. blood elfs). Story is kind of a weak support for high elfs.

[FlubberPuddy]

In response:

Unique model - NB are more unique than what HE would be.

Fantasy - Quote from you "this one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic". Vareessa and Alleria are both haughty and extremely proud. High elfs in general are stuck up (like BE) and believe they are better than their kin. Their attitudes are ultimately the same. Can't really argue there. Plus they hold grudges. Again, same. So no, you're wrong here.

They still express unity with humans, a common high elf theme, whereas Blood Elves continue to think they're the best. Even then, leaders don't account for all the generic High Elf NPCs that don't have the Blood Elf voice lines which is Blizzard's attempt to show a personality difference. Nice try. If leaders were the accurate representation of their citizens then Forsaken would all be undead cunning elves, which they are not. You're confusing the general populace with specific faction leaders.

As for looks, it is the easiest thing for Blizzard to work around. There's plenty of amazing fan art out there with designs of High Elves.

These are a few selections from fans of WoW's High Elves.















Just because some here may not have the creativity to express the possible differences that this thread proposed in the OP, doesn't mean they don't exist. We know that Blizzard isn't adverse to adding High Elf fantasy to the Alliance anymore. They encourage to keep the conversation going. Our only responsibility (for those who want Alliance High Elves playable) is to show Blizzard the desire for it and help express how that desire can come to be.

Architecture - A lot of their architecture is the same as BE (just different coloring). No uniqueness there. Their lodges are similar to night elf architecture... again, no uniqueness.

Yes and Void Elf architecture consists of nothing but floating rocks. Even their tents and tables are re-used assets that have already been in the game. They actually have no architecture. Their armor and weapon designs instantaneously became different upon becoming Void Elves:



Time isn't a factor when it comes to adding different/unique armor/weapon designs, and neither is uniqueness in architecture. Blizzard will create what they deem sufficient enough. Trying to imply nothing can be expanded upon with High Elf addition is showing lack of coherence with how Blizzard has handled the additions with other Allied Races.

Story - This is the only one where there is some uniqueness. But A) this can be developed via NPCs and B) their story is minor and really only a subset of the main thalassian story (ie. blood elfs). Story is kind of a weak support for high elfs.

High Elf story has seen more share than Gnomes, Worgen, and Draenei (until WoD) through the expansions we've had. You can call it minor if you wish, what would you expect from a minority race? But if you're someone that quests on an Alliance character chances are you will run into High Elves.

Story matters a lot when it comes to Allied Races. Blizzard has said multiple times that the context of a race matters in terms of where it is added for an Allied Race. Downplaying the story component when it comes to High Elves is downplaying a major component of the Allied Race system itself in all honesty.

[protip]

Disclaimer: Sorry for the large amount of texts, this is just a discussion topic I very much enjoy and like dissecting. But I understand it can be fatiguing with large amounts of text. Hence, no rush. I take my time with these, so should everyone else.

Blood Elves and High Elves very easily fit into two groups: One fights for the horde, and the other fights for the alliance. That's as basic as you can get with High Elves and Blood Elves. There are further differentiations which I've stated already: non-glowy eyes, paler skin/hair, and of course the iconic blue eyes.

Those truly are all that is needed to differentiate between a High Elf and a Blood Elf. Again, outside of this discussion topic, no one gets confused by what is a High Elf when High Elves are talked about and what is a Blood Elf when Blood Elves are talked about. This only gets brought up by people trying to undermine the discussion and disingenuously refer to "High Elves the race" when what is being requested is "High Elves the group". The ones that still use that namesake in WoW to this day, and currently exist on Alliance and are only not playable.

I really don't how you can lump Wildhammers in with Nightborne and Highmountain Tauren here. Even some player perception of Wildhammer Dwarves echoes what's said about High Elves: they're not worth a slot, slap some tats on Bronzebeards and call it a day. That's very similar to High Elves aren't worth a slot, slap some blue eyes on Blood Elves and call it a day.

When I use Nightborne as an example it is meant to showcase that your point of comment about how "unique combos of things that already exist" is a unique option it itself. I am not using Nightborne to say that there isn't a long span of time to explain their differences.

Nor do I use Highmountain Tauren as a way to say their lore makes their tribes similar to Mulgore Tauren. I use HMT to show that the outcome of such an Allied Race can be as little as 1 iconic feature (Antlers) + addition of tattoos and that's enough for Blizzard to make them an AR.

So I'm not sure what you were trying to mean when you brought up the stories that explain the differences of Nightborne and HMT. As we see with Void Elves, Blizzard can very easily come up with lore to explain any addition of an Allied Race. With that said, more lore-related response below.

That there are High Elves from Dalaran who went with Kael and returned as Blood Elves means nothing. The main point is, before the identity "Blood Elves" existed, there was already a difference of culture and identity between the majority of High Elves that lived in Dalaran/around Humans and those majority of High Elves that stayed in Quel'thalas (this latter group being the huge majority of High Elves that eventually become Blood Elves).

My point here is that there is nothing that prevents a Blood Elf from appearing exactly the same as a High Elf. They share history and lifestyle up to and continuing past that point. Whatever differences there may be between elves in Quel'Thalas and elves in Dalaran cannot be used to distinguish between Blood Elves and High Elves because they are not mutually exclusive.

If High Elf and Blood Elf culture were the literal same then such a schism would not have occurred between the two groups. Every High Elf would be identifying as a Blood Elf. That's not what happened. And it's not simply due to not wanting to suck magic out of beings and etc. Again, there were already differences in mannerisms and personalities between the majority of those staying in Dalaran vs the majority of those staying in Quel'thalas. How can you refute this? When even Kael'thas points it out himself within Chronicles Ver 3. When it was written in a book that even Vereesa would get made fun of by her Quel'thalas friends for spending so much time around humans.

The problem here is again that different cultures in Quel'Thalas and Dalaran does not translate to different cultures between Blood Elves and High Elves, unless you can show them to be mutually exclusive. However, there are Blood Elves who lived in Dalaran, and essentially all high elves were born and raised in Quel'Thalas. Even that part of their history is shared.

Culture is not solely physical alterations. Trying to regulate it this way does no favors. Looks will always be an easy thing to fall back on sure. Visuals help, of course they do. But not every Allied race is drastically different than its predecessor so trying to argue that each Allied Race must be wholly different is disingenuous. I mean the fact that you talk about Wildhammer being a group with distinct shared heritage and culture. That's practically the same with High Elves and Blood Elves.

It's more than a leap of faith to say that Blood Elves and High Elves don't share a common culture and ancestry, and while I agree that culture isn't a physical change, I firmly believe there needs to be visual differences between various races so that the fantasy of a race can be expressed visually. I would argue that the way Blizzard uses art to express different fantasy themes is a fundamental part of Warcraft, and I think it's important that future races portray those themes in the same way.

And there are things that Blood Elves can't be that High Elves are. 1) The biggest is the reliance on the Sunwell. 2) The reliance on magic within their group. These are huge factors that are not prevalent among High Elves but will always be prevalent and relevant to Blood Elves. A 3) is their faction loyalty: Blood Elves seemingly are staunchly supportive of Horde, while High Elves most certainly are not and are in fact staunchly supportive of the Horde's rival.

What does it mean to be reliant on the Sunwell when all high elves are connected to it passively? The only difference here is how they sated their magical addiction while the Sunwell was destroyed. Because draining a crystal and draining a mana wyrm gives raw arcane energy either way, there is no difference here beyond attitude. Even if there was, a Blood Elf was not obligated to drain from living creatures, so there is reasonable doubt for some Blood Elves to have nearly or entirely the same experience as an Alliance high elf in terms of the magic they consumed.

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by their reliance on magic, but some Blood Elves having unique characteristics relative to Alliance high elves doesn't mean that other Blood Elves aren't identical to Alliance high elves. Even if you can demonstrate a difference on average, my concern is that Blood Elf culture encompasses the entirety of high elf culture, while Alliance high elf culture is just a smaller part of that under a different banner.

Well this would hold more weight were it not for the recent various developer comments on 1)High Elf fantasy among the Alliance being possible (Alex Afrasiabi) 2) Cool ideas being thought up for Wildhammers (Jeremy Feasel) 3)High Elves not being in BFA doesn't mean they'll never happen (Ion Hazzikostas).

1) Shows that the developers aren't adverse to giving Alliance "something like a High Elf feeling". Yes the context was in VE customization, but this does show definitively that Blood Elves would not have access to "any part of high elf culture reserved for Alliance" as you put it.

It's clear that they want to keep races and factions distinct, and while they have suggested that some further compromise was still a possibility, we have to assume that it will continue to be influenced by their desire for the races and factions to remain different in obvious ways. It is true that they have explained that nothing is impossible, but probabilities will surely be affected by how various ideas mesh with their ideals.

2)This shows that the developers aren't adverse to allowing 3rd iteration of a playable race type, one that is also much more similar to an already playable type. The brainstorming of ideas shows that Blizzard will simply do more than "slap some tats to already playable dwarves" when it comes a similar race type.

I think that's already been demonstrated by the fact that we already have four kinds of elves, but Wildhammer dwarves don't come with the same issues as high elves. Not only are they allied with the only faction that already has dwarves, but they have a longstanding history as a single distinct group with a unique shared heritage and culture. Blizzard can adjust the backstory and appearance of the Wildhammer without retconning the backstory of any existing playable characters. They have a much less limited design space than they do with High Elves.

3)While again, this is hearsay, but if it was relevant enough for Obelisk to bring up it's relevant enough for the discussion going forward. Which is to say that Ion saying, "it doesn't mean High Elves will never happen" means that I do not ever see Blood Elves gaining anything that would relate them to what High Elf identity is maintained on in the Alliance. It also shows, along with Alex's commentary, that people who want High Elves on Alliance have a chance of that happening (in what form - we do not know), but that possibility still exists.

As always, there are those that aren't okay with the idea. But there are also those that would absolutely love the idea. We can see from recent Blizzard developer comments that they are more open to the possibility for playable High Elves on Alliance than before.

I think it's a bit dangerous to look at Alex's words as indicative of any future development. He only talked about potential and possibilities, not so different from Ion's suggestion that Blood Elves might get blue contact lenses. I don't want Void Elves and Blood Elves to appear any more similar to each other than they already do, and I think that the uncorrupted high elf model falls well within the story and fantasy of the Blood Elves, but that's not my choice to make. I won't speculate right now about what is actually going to happen, but I do think elf fatigue will last us a while yet, at least in terms of independent allied races.

Why do people keep referring to nightborne as "Descendant" and as "highborne" - do they have no idea of the lore?

Nightborne are not descendants, they are original night elves that have had their bodies warped by the excessive consumption of arcane energy. They are not a society of descendants, most of them were born normal night elves. In fact, I would be shocked if a shal'dorei and kaldorei child were not identical, the warping only taking place as they mature and start consuming arcwine - quests particularly tell us the little children are not permitted to drink it till they are older.

Nightborne were not all highborne, Elisande and the group she led to erect the city were, but not everyone there - the city is a standard night elf community of their pre-sundering era, elites were highborne, normal citizens, incl servants etc were not.


I mean are you people clueless? I mean I watched the same cinematic everyone did and read the same lore in the night elf section of the Chornicles Volume 1 - played the same quests.

Nightborne have highborne - they are not highborne.
High elves are highborne, all of them - well technically they are highborne descendants, only night elves are highborne, when they are thalassian they are high elf - that's why 2 separate words are used. But that's being pedantic.

We use highborne for night elves, whether kaldorei or shal'dorei - there are highborne existing amongst them who stayed highborne from the sundering, and all Thalassian elves are kin to ALL night elves, highborne is not a separate species of elf or night elf, it is just a caste. The highborne race are the high elves - and that word is no longer associated with their current status, instead high elf is used.

You got me, I didn't mention that many of the current Shal'dorei were once night elves. However, the Nightborne are no longer night elves - even the children had to be cured of magical addiction by the Arcan'dor. They are born with it, just like high elves. Also, in Chronicles 1, there is no mention of non-Highborne residents of Suramar, and the ruling class are referred to as elite Highborne. Regardless, the playable Nightborne have only just come out of their isolation tank, and have all gone without sunlight or moonlight for 10,000 years, all while being pumped full of arcane energy. There is plenty of reason for them to have a different culture and appearance from night elves.

[Strippling]

They still express unity with humans, a common high elf theme, whereas Blood Elves continue to think they're the best. Even then, leaders don't account for all the generic High Elf NPCs that don't have the Blood Elf voice lines which is Blizzard's attempt to show a personality difference. Nice try. If leaders were the accurate representation of their citizens then Forsaken would all be undead cunning elves, which they are not. You're confusing the general populace with specific faction leaders.

As for looks, it is the easiest thing for Blizzard to work around. There's plenty of amazing fan art out there with designs of High Elves.

Time isn't a factor when it comes to adding different/unique armor/weapon designs, and neither is uniqueness in architecture. Blizzard will create what they deem sufficient enough. Trying to imply nothing can be expanded upon with High Elf addition is showing lack of coherence with how Blizzard has handled the additions with other Allied Races.



High Elf story has seen more share than Gnomes, Worgen, and Draenei (until WoD) through the expansions we've had. You can call it minor if you wish, what would you expect from a minority race? But if you're someone that quests on an Alliance character chances are you will run into High Elves.

Story matters a lot when it comes to Allied Races. Blizzard has said multiple times that the context of a race matters in terms of where it is added for an Allied Race. Downplaying the story component when it comes to High Elves is downplaying a major component of the Allied Race system itself in all honesty.

With the upcoming patch 8.2 focusing a lot on gnomes I think that'd put even gnomes above high elfs with having more serious and focused story development. Up until now, the majority of any high elf story development has been off the tail of blood elf story. Nothing much exclusively of their own. Suggesting that Blizz sees them and blood elfs as practically the same, with differing allegiances.

Don't take Alex's comment too literal... you're setting yourself up for more disappointment. But lets say for a sec they give void elfs some high elf customization options... how would that offer any distinction between them and blood elfs? You argue constantly that high elfs would be visually different, yet in other posts you state that you'd settle for high elf customization for the void elfs (which would LITERALLY be a blood elf with blue eyes). You confuse me....

And you can try play up the "importance" of high elf lore all you want, but we all know that high elfs are just foil plot for blood elfs and that's all they're relegated too. Even any screen time Vareesa gets she's normally talking about the blood elfs. The high elfs are just deserters who abandoned their kin and can't get over the past. They're not a group, they're a fractured remnant of the thalassian society, who have moved on to greener pastures (the Horde).

[FlubberPuddy]

My point here is that there is nothing that prevents a Blood Elf from appearing exactly the same as a High Elf. They share history and lifestyle up to and continuing past that point. Whatever differences there may be between elves in Quel'Thalas and elves in Dalaran cannot be used to distinguish between Blood Elves and High Elves because they are not mutually exclusive.

I would agree that nothing prevents it if you mean to say that nothing prevents Blizzard from having Blood Elves appear exactly as High Elves. This is true, but will they ever do it? That's the real question. It's already established that Blizzard is the final decision maker throughout all this discussion that is happening. As for your sentence on mutual exclusivity. I'd say that Blizzard has done a decent job on keeping up a status quo of differences between High Elves and Blood Elves in terms of overall story, themes, and importance to both groups. That is to say, the game based on the developers does enough to show Alliance players what High Elves are and what Blood Elves are. I haven't played the Horde side much at all, so I don't know how often High Elves are brought up (if ever), but I'm sure the Horde players definitely know what a Blood Elves are at the very least.

Overall for mutual exclusivity I am merely saying that all forms of media related to WoW (books, game, official online articles) have differentiated between a High Elf and a Blood Elf. Are some parts similar? Ofc, they have shared ancestry that's to be expected. I wouldn't go so far as to say they share the same lifestyle though. That's very easily displayed by the various works that talks about how High Elves dealt with their magical addiction over Blood Elves.

The problem here is again that different cultures in Quel'Thalas and Dalaran does not translate to different cultures between Blood Elves and High Elves, unless you can show them to be mutually exclusive. However, there are Blood Elves who lived in Dalaran, and essentially all high elves were born and raised in Quel'Thalas. Even that part of their history is shared.

This does not make sense, "different cultures between two major groupings of High Elves doesn't translate to different cultures between two major groups of High Elves". That's literally what you're saying. A way to understand it is like this: High Elves of today are those that spent the majority of their time living among human lands/kingdoms forming relationships etc all that jazz. The Blood Elves can be considered those that spent the majority of their time living within their kingdom of Quel'thalas. Because if you are to say that they do not share different cultures (which we have already established isn't just looks solely) then you are saying that every single aspect of High Elves that are on Alliance is exactly the same as Blood Elves. This would be including Blood Elves' pragmatic use of magic, doing anything to survive as a people, considering humans in general as beneath them, etc all those things that are displayed among Blood Elves would be in practice displayed among High Elves.

We know this to not be the case as there are official sources that state things such as most High Elves were not sorcerers: "Like blood elves, high elves can use arcane magic, but most do not because most high elves are not spellcasters."

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Warcra...dia/High_Elves <-- the caveat here is this was written before certain eras like Cataclysm, where Vereesa was invited to Tyrande and Malfurion's Wedding so we know parts where it says "Night Elves saw it as their duty to warn the Alliance against High Elves" isn't true as relations have improved.

With that said, we know that most of the time High Elves are shown outside of Dalaran they are most often not spellcasters. So that part I quoted is observably evident in game today.

It's more than a leap of faith to say that Blood Elves and High Elves don't share a common culture and ancestry, and while I agree that culture isn't a physical change, I firmly believe there needs to be visual differences between various races so that the fantasy of a race can be expressed visually. I would argue that the way Blizzard uses art to express different fantasy themes is a fundamental part of Warcraft, and I think it's important that future races portray those themes in the same way.

There is definitely a shared ancestry, I would never argue against that. But what can't be minimized is the differences from the Blood Elf/High Elf split. Blood Elves held onto their pragmatic use of magic ways and their kingdom and mannerisms that Quel'thalas already had for millennia. High Elves have been most often been portrayed as less magic heavy, and their NPC chatter is evident to show their more laid-back?(Not quite sure that's the correct word) nature.

I agree that aesthetic differences should be used to enhance the fantasy of races visually. But we also know there is no rule against multiple of a race, as evident by the already existing allied races. I spoke already in a discussion with Friendly about which thematics for Blood Elves Blizzard is focused on portraying. It is also why a lot of the High Elf portrayals in this thread and others are using design ideas that are not being utilized by Blood Elves.

What does it mean to be reliant on the Sunwell when all high elves are connected to it passively? The only difference here is how they sated their magical addiction while the Sunwell was destroyed. Because draining a crystal and draining a mana wyrm gives raw arcane energy either way, there is no difference here beyond attitude. Even if there was, a Blood Elf was not obligated to drain from living creatures, so there is reasonable doubt for some Blood Elves to have nearly or entirely the same experience as an Alliance high elf in terms of the magic they consumed.

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by their reliance on magic, but some Blood Elves having unique characteristics relative to Alliance high elves doesn't mean that other Blood Elves aren't identical to Alliance high elves. Even if you can demonstrate a difference on average, my concern is that Blood Elf culture encompasses the entirety of high elf culture, while Alliance high elf culture is just a smaller part of that under a different banner.

What I mean is that there are groups of High Elves who completely cut themselves off from magic. We know that Thalassian Rangers are less affected by pangs of magic hunger as evidence by Lor'themar and the Farstriders as a whole. And High Elves are mostly portrayed with Rangers or civilians and while Mages are present they are less so. We know that Blood Elves worship the Sunwell, this can't be disputed. But we do not know that High Elves in the Alliance today worship it just as much. These are the reliant differences I'm talking about. High Elves don't go around saying "Eternal Sun guide you!" and things of that nature. Because in general as a group this is being used to convey the importance of the Sunwell to Blood Elves, something not currently being used by the High Elves on Alliance.

I mean we can split the hairs all day, but at the end of it is this: Blizzard giving High Elf NPCs different voices/greetings is meant to showcase a different nature from their Blood Elf brethren. Otherwise what other plausible reasoning is there for this to be as it is today?

It's clear that they want to keep races and factions distinct, and while they have suggested that some further compromise was still a possibility, we have to assume that it will continue to be influenced by their desire for the races and factions to remain different in obvious ways. It is true that they have explained that nothing is impossible, but probabilities will surely be affected by how various ideas mesh with their ideals.

I mean if we are agreeing earlier that visual differences are used to portray the fantasy of a race then I don't know how else you can get closer to a "High Elf fantasy/feeling" other than being able to look like a High Elf. The fact that this is a definite possibility (as in there is a definite chance it can happen) and it was emphatically expressed to "not give up hope" then it's clear they want continued investment into the idea. And I am not one to believe that Blizzard is one to dangle a carrot without eventually following through on it. There have been an incredible amount of player requests throughout the years that have made their way into Blizzard's game.

I think that's already been demonstrated by the fact that we already have four kinds of elves, but Wildhammer dwarves don't come with the same issues as high elves. Not only are they allied with the only faction that already has dwarves, but they have a longstanding history as a single distinct group with a unique shared heritage and culture. Blizzard can adjust the backstory and appearance of the Wildhammer without retconning the backstory of any existing playable characters. They have a much less limited design space than they do with High Elves.

You can talk about the number of elves in total all you want as if to imply there won't be another elf added until all other races get a 4th variation of themselves, but the truth of the matter is that there's only a handful of extremely popular requested races, and depending on where one falls it is either fortunate or unfortunate that High Elves are definitely one of those. There is no need to retcon any backstory for High Elves, indeed I believe that they would instead add further story that makes plausible for whatever extra customization comes toward High Elves on Alliance should it happen that they become their own stand-alone Allied Race or what have you.

I think it's a bit dangerous to look at Alex's words as indicative of any future development. He only talked about potential and possibilities, not so different from Ion's suggestion that Blood Elves might get blue contact lenses. I don't want Void Elves and Blood Elves to appear any more similar to each other than they already do, and I think that the uncorrupted high elf model falls well within the story and fantasy of the Blood Elves, but that's not my choice to make. I won't speculate right now about what is actually going to happen, but I do think elf fatigue will last us a while yet, at least in terms of independent allied races.

I'm not saying they're working on High Elves for the future, all I'm saying is I'm a firm believer that Blizzard wouldn't egg on their fans (in this case Alex encouraging further discussion and to not give up) without it paying off in some way further down the line. Even if you personally may not want Void Elves and Blood Elves to appear any more similar than they already do, Alex's word isn't boding that well for your stance there. Since he's basically encouraging the group that would want (or more) to continue requesting for it. But I see that you understand it isn't your choice to make, neither is it mine. It's all up to Blizzard and we can only go by what they are telling us. It's just recent word has it showing they've budged a little bit towards possibly getting some feeling a High Elf playable on Alliance.

And yes you can rest assured knowing that no elves will be coming soon down the pipeline, I've already known this. For BFA definitely not. For 9.0+ well we'll just have to wait and see. I do not personally see anything relating to Elves (this accounts for San'layn too, sorry UE fans) happening until other races have gotten their AR counterparts.

But I would be incredibly surprised if Blizzard does decide to add another elf to Alliance and it isn't a High Elf (barring High Elf customization getting added to VEs beforehand).

- - - Updated - - -

With the upcoming patch 8.2 focusing a lot on gnomes I think that'd put even gnomes above high elfs with having more serious and focused story development. Up until now, the majority of any high elf story development has been off the tail of blood elf story. Nothing much exclusively of their own. Suggesting that Blizz sees them and blood elfs as practically the same, with differing allegiances.

I never fooled myself into thinking High Elves would do much of anything in BFA once Void Elves came released. They have almost no lore and Blizzard of course should brush up and flesh them out. What I was surprised by is High Elves still existing in BFA among Alliance troops which killed this notion that some players had of "all the High Elves are turning into Void Elves now".

As for your foil to Blood Elf bit, same can be said for the Alliance and Horde, or even Humans and Orcs. Not much development as progressed there other than being foils to each other. That's not something exclusive to Blood Elves vs High Elves so don't really know what pointing it out does. Blizzard does not seem bothered by it. Blood Elf vs High Elf is actually one of the more compelling squabbles imo, since it is mainly politically driven. We need more of that in WoW not just barbaric "race vs race" confrontations. I'm always excited for more nuanced story and Blizzard is delivering that in BFA with the inner turmoil of Horde.

Don't take Alex's comment too literal... you're setting yourself up for more disappointment. But lets say for a sec they give void elfs some high elf customization options... how would that offer any distinction between them and blood elfs? You argue constantly that high elfs would be visually different, yet in other posts you state that you'd settle for high elf customization for the void elfs (which would LITERALLY be a blood elf with blue eyes). You confuse me....

All I'm taking his comment to mean is that he encourages High Elf fans to continue requesting for what they want. That is wonderful especially when I expected nothing at all to be brought up for High Elves at Blizzcon.

I state that I would settle for something instead of nothing and that is confusing to you? I do not see how. If a person asking for 3 apples and someone says I can only give at most 1 apple or nothing. Then most people would settle with taking the 1 apple over getting nothing in return. It should not be hard to understand.

And you can try play up the "importance" of high elf lore all you want, but we all know that high elfs are just foil plot for blood elfs and that's all they're relegated too. Even any screen time Vareesa gets she's normally talking about the blood elfs. The high elfs are just deserters who abandoned their kin and can't get over the past. They're not a group, they're a fractured remnant of the thalassian society, who have moved on to greener pastures (the Horde).

Again, I am happy for them to be foils to Blood Elves, it's interesting. It's like two siblings going to war and fighting on different sides for different ideals. That's way more interesting than "this person is not our same skin color/look therefore they're bad". The latter is barbaric and basic, the former is nuanced and interesting.

I'm sure there are Blood Elves who see High Elves as "can't get over the past" and "deserters" and just as there are High Elves that felt Blood Elves were going down a wrong path (in their point of view) and decided to cut ties. That is very interesting story to me.

- - - Updated - - -

Neato I found this btw (thanks to Fallyn on US Forums): No longer is it hearsay. EDIT: Found a fuller response from the Discord.

[Alixie]

No other proposed Allied race in the game requires such an examination of 'nuance' to justify them. I believe 'temperament' has actually been used by some posters in an attempt to manufacture a difference, with High Elves being portrayed as 'nobler' to the more arrogant Blood Elves. Which of course begs the question, would kinder green Orcs qualify as an Allied race of their own accord?

You mean green orcs in the Alliance? Sure! We could take the same WoD portal the Horde took to recruit the brown Maghar, and recruit the Lightbound Orcs that joined Yrel and the Draenai. They have the same "political" split as the Blood Elves did. The Maghar go with the Horde, the Lightbound go with the Alliance. And they get to be paladins too. And AU Garrosh joins the Alliance. There you go, green orcs in the Alliance, green orcs in the Horde. Actually, for a brief exciting moment in time, a lot of people theorized that Saurfang would defect to the Alliance and bring the Maghar with him.

Oh, you mean two green orc races on the same fraction? That argument is invalid as High Elves and Blood Elves would be on separate fractions, but I will humor it. I dont play Horde, is there a long requested Orc clan to be playable? The Frostwolves? Maybe the half orc half ogre kind like Rexxar?

As for Alliance, I would be ecstatic if Wildhammer became playable. Even if it means 3 versions of dwarves, as there would be 3 versions of thalassian elves. I proposed this several pages back. Wildhammer and High Elves, both nature themed races and close allies, should become playable in the same time span. The Wildhammer Clan and the Silver Covenant are the last two long time fractions that are allied with the Alliance, but not playable. They would have their own set of cosmetic options that are unavailable to their parent races, and would bring in more playable druids to the Alliance.

Leaving that aside, Protip is correct. Biologically, thematically and culturally, Blood Elves and High Elves are a homogenous group with the sole difference being their political opinion. In any debate, nuance can be important. But this particular debate revolves around that nuance and trying to use something small and insignificant to pretend Alliance High Elves are an entirely different category from the Blood Elves, which they are not as it was confirmed by the developers that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

I would not hang on to Ion's flippant comment so desperately. Blizz is known to be wrong, or change their minds quite often. Metzen once said that "Tandred Proudmoore will not be cannon." That statement was completely reversed as Tandred is now cannon AND alive in BFA. Also, I suggest reading or playing the Blood Elf heritage scenario when it becomes available. Lorthemar very clearly proclaims that they are High Elves no longer. If you claimed otherwise, he'd have you exiled or brainwashed.

[bowlink]

I would not hang on to Ion's flippant comment so desperately. Blizz is known to be wrong, or change their minds quite often. Metzen once said that "Tandred Proudmoore will not be cannon." That statement was completely reversed as Tandred is now cannon AND alive in BFA. Also, I suggest reading or playing the Blood Elf heritage scenario when it becomes available. Lorthemar very clearly proclaims that they are High Elves no longer. If you claimed otherwise, he'd have you exiled or brainwashed.

well to be faire hes a marine not a cannon, he says so himself

[FlubberPuddy]

I would not hang on to Ion's flippant comment so desperately. Blizz is known to be wrong, or change their minds quite often. Metzen once said that "Tandred Proudmoore will not be cannon." That statement was completely reversed as Tandred is now cannon AND alive in BFA. Also, I suggest reading or playing the Blood Elf heritage scenario when it becomes available. Lorthemar very clearly proclaims that they are High Elves no longer. If you claimed otherwise, he'd have you exiled or brainwashed.

I wouldn't hang onto what Ion said from April anymore much either given the Discord response. He didn't reiterate "the Blood Elves are there for you" when asked at Blizzcon 2018. "won't be in BFA but that doesn't mean they'll never be in wow ever" and "the door hasn't closed" are important take-aways because it means:

1) High Elf fans are not expected to be content with the offerings of Void Elves and Blood Elves.

2) High Elf fans have a chance of getting playable High Elves (in form we don't quite know yet).

Even if it wasn't said in an official capacity it is still (as some put it) "Word of God" from Ion himself.

And if anyone thinks it's a made up response they are free to go ahead and question Ion about it on Twitter and hope for a response. That's the simplest way to know for sure

I'm not going to discredit it because it seems genuine and of course helps my position. But I present an avenue for those who are skeptic to have it confirmed in totality if that's what they want.

As you pointed out, they change their minds quite often, and their responses (Ion included) have changed regarding High Elves.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

4,325 days, 425 pages later

and no High Elves in sight.

[MechaCThun]

The truth isn't an attack, Kaira. You shouldn't be allowed to use the word "toxic" with there being demonstrable proof that you wished death upon people in the High Elf Discord. You are a walking, talking contradiction that seemingly hasn't learned its lesson. And when you got called on it, you blamed everything short of psychosis for your words. I'm amazed you even show your face in this thread after that circus of emotions.

On-topic:

You guys need to really accept that, at best for the foreseeable future, you're going to get a customization option to lighten the VE skin and hair. I sympathized with some of you before, but almost 3-4 months later, the derangement of this cult is worrisome. Void Elves ARE a product of the unrest of the High Elf community. But you were never getting them, despite how much you think the Alliance "deserves" them. A compromise was all that was ever on that horizon. And now another compromise awaits you as the unrest continues.

- - - Updated - - -



She did. The screenshots of it are somewhere in this thread, in the first 100-200 pages or so.

RIP @Kaira

Just like this whole thread has devolved into, yet again.

4,325 days, 425 pages later

and no High Elves in sight.

And never going to be in sight after another 425 pages.

[RangerDaz]

4,325 days, 425 pages later

and no High Elves in sight.

They haven't even released Zandalari Trolls, even after announcing them at Blizzcon 2017, and they haven't announced no new allied races in Blizzcon 2018 either. With this rate, they might release 2-3 pairs of allied races per year. This is no argument, as Blizzard is clearly putting some strong breaks in all the Allied Race euphoria.

One day, High Elves for alliance might come though.

[Beloren]

You got me, I didn't mention that many of the current Shal'dorei were once night elves. However, the Nightborne are no longer night elves - even the children had to be cured of magical addiction by the Arcan'dor. They are born with it, just like high elves. Also, in Chronicles 1, there is no mention of non-Highborne residents of Suramar, and the ruling class are referred to as elite Highborne. Regardless, the playable Nightborne have only just come out of their isolation tank, and have all gone without sunlight or moonlight for 10,000 years, all while being pumped full of arcane energy. There is plenty of reason for them to have a different culture and appearance from night elves.

That's a fair point. It's just that there is no mention of all the night elves being highborne, only the group Elisande worked with to erect the shield. Given how many servants and lowborne words are branded about - it is fair to assume not all are highborne. It could be that you are right that all who remained were, but that seems highly unlikely given the story of some remaining in the city, and others joining Tyrande and Ravencrest with the army that marched on Zin'Azshari. Not all would have been fighters or skilled warriors - afterall, the whole idea of going to Zin'azshari was to safe the rest of the night elves and the world. it's highluyy unlikely that every night elf went to fight. So you cannot assume that all who remained in the city were highborne.


it's like saying, the nobility all stayed, but the non-nobles all left - that's just ridiculous. There were highborne who joined Ravencrest, and non-highborne who did not.

Finally they have a different culture from the Darnassian kaldorei, but not from teh shen'dralar nor the pre-sundering night elves - the quest tells you the nightborne preserved their kaldorei culture pristinely for 10,000 years. The culture you meet in Suramar, is a perfect kaldroei pre-sundering civlizaiton, more perfectly preserved than that of the shen'dralar even, and i won't even quote the high elves here, their culture was a highborne revoution, they are long vigil highborne setting up a new forward thinking society. The nightborne are kaldorei of the old culture. However their culture is changed.

It is only a slight nit pick but

[Mutineer]

4,325 days, 425 pages later

and no High Elves in sight.

I have to wonder how far the thread will go. No matter what page I check, it's always the same arguments being run around in the same circle, often by the same people.

Amazing.