1. #8121
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    Indeed, in the starting zone of the VE you can see BE and HE studying the void with the title "initiate"
    Studying something doesn't mean you want to throw away your life by struggling to resists hearing old god voices until you go insane, which is inevitable for the Void Elves. Their lives are a constant struggle, probably more of a struggle then the destruction of the Sunwell caused.

    I also don't recall male gynecology students eventually turning into women

    It makes more sense if those initiates want to study the void to find a cure for the Void Elves or they are the explanation for Blood/High Elf shadow priests.

    Void Elves are the result of an incomplete transformation against their will so there is no compelling reason why someone would want to go through it. if the transformation process is not interrupted exactly at the right time at the right place by the right person (Alleria) you end up insane, without a body or for all we know as a blob of slime. There are also no indications (that I know off ) that the process can be repeated since it was originally caused by an external source.

    Those Blood&High Elf "initiates" are just Blizzards pathetic attempt to link Void Elves to normal elves to entice players to play them.

  2. #8122
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Here is acknowledgement that Nightborne story is similar to Blood Elves:

    "Inspiration
    The nightborne's story -- that of a magic-addicted race of Highborne elves, dependent on a Well of nourishment, whose leader betrayed them to the Burning Legion -- is very reminiscent of the story of the blood elves, something that is even acknowledged in-universe.[31]"

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Nightborne

  3. #8123
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I still believe High Elves are being turned into Void Elves to give true lore fans such as yourself a form of what you want. I wish they would state it explicitly to give you the security that is what is happening. But I believe that as they have not stated that that ISN'T what is happening...and that they have heavily implied High Elves CAN be changed into Void Elves, your best bet maybe to make a leap of faith?

    Perhaps not a leap of faith, but I do believe it is the most likely possibility at this point. Like I would be thrilled about AR High Elves, but I really don't think they are likely, so yeh. So within of what I deem possible/likely, adding the HE lore people have been asking to VE feels like the best case scenario for me, and an actual compromise. It would resolve the HE issue, use up their lore, and give VE's much more needed background.

  4. #8124
    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    You argue that I'm splitting hairs by saying that high elves don't contribute anything unique, but I'm most definitely not.
    You could argue similarly that Blood Elves didn't contribute anything unique to the game when they were introduced, apart from a new model, since a tall pale-skinned race which could be paladins (their most defining feature) already existed in game (humans), playable Elves were also already in game (Night Elves) and High Elf culture (which according to some is identical to Blood Elf culture) was also already visible in game for the Alliance.

    That didn't stop Blizzard from adding these "Horde Humans" to the game to deliberately blur the difference between the factions ("pretty" paladin race for the Horde).

    Out of all the playable races added to the game, the Blood Elves have blurred faction lines the most and gave unique iconic (up to that point) Alliance features to the Horde:
    * human-like model with human-like skin-tones
    * a light oriented race
    * paladins

    In comparison the only Horde thing the Alliance got with Draenei was shamans and hooves.

    I understand Blizzards reluctance to give an identical Horde playable model to the Alliance but if they were genuinely concerned about blurring factions lines they shouldn't have made a lot of other decisions over the years:

    * Horde Paladins & Alliance Shaman
    * Removing priest racial abilities (e.g. fearward)
    * Non-Night Elf Druids
    * Goblins (to give horde a small & techno oriented race)
    * Nightborne (Night-Elf Highborne)
    * Void Blood Elves

  5. #8125
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I assume the Blood Elves without green eyes are simply those who weren't present in Silvermoon during the reconstruction, and never drained Fel energy from either the Burning Crystals or demons. There were probably a few Blood Elves who lived and worked in or around Dalaran even post-collapse, who weren't part of Kael's detachment and so weren't jailed by Garithos on suspicion of treachery. Some may have also been in smaller lodges through the area, or small unremarked-on communities, who while not present to be Fel-tainted still kept their allegiance to Silvermoon when the bulk of the High Elves were exiled. Mana-tapping itself wouldn't bestow the Fel taint (unless you tapped a source of Fel energy), so a few Blood Elves might've kept their original eye coloration.

    I don't really know what leads to the golden eye coloration and if it is a recent development or if it was meant to be possible all the time. Based on some depictions of Liadrin I would think the coloration is meant for those individuals with a strong connection to the Light (e.g. Paladins and Priests) and not for the bulk of the Blood Elves, though who can really say. If there are any prominent High Elven Priests or Paladins remaining I would assume this coloration is an open possibility for them as well.
    That's my assumption as well; the blue eyed BE that exists are most likely BE's that just weren't around heavy fel usage for any reason. While I do theorize that mana tapping itself might cause green eyes -cause I think that maybe killing a living creature for its energy might itself be a lower form of fel?- We do know that some BE's didn't have to mana tap nor felt the pans, and indeed, any belf with enough access to magic items would have no need for either. So a Belf, with a good supply of magic items, or j simply one less "addicted" to magic by being a Farstrider could have potentially never had gotten green eyes under the right context.

    While I would say golden eyes are more likely on priests and paladins, the fact that every BE can pick them does imply it's not necessary, so maybe the explanation has more to do with actively channeling from the Sunwell as something religious maybe? Or perhaps, proximity? There's a lot left to speculation on this so far. The fact we have only seen paladins with golden eyes eyes does imply it's more likely for them, butthat they are possible for everyone suggests another contextual caveat.

    Personally I like the proximity one, as we do know that elves are affected by "radiation" as that was the reason they get their colored eyes on the first place.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Probably just Blizzard making a mistake with skin id's. It took a long time for them to fix Arathor the Redeemer's eyes as well. Blue/Green eyes are meant as visual queues as to the background of the characters.

    Given all the demonic energy in Outland all the Alliance Expedition Elves should have had green eyes as well, and perhaps the eyes of all Night Elf player characters should have changed green as well, at least while in Outland.
    Probably a mistake, but yeah, we can't really know.

    I do disagree with the "every elf on Outland should have green eyes" theory. It just doesn't ring true when entire areas of Outland aren't corrupted by fel. Neither Nagrand and Terrokar seem seeped in fel, and that in fact is in line with Mag'har and blue eyed High Elves existing in Outland. A lot has been made about Outland being seeped in fel, but the evidence suggests some areas just aren't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Rather than respond to every single point you have made, let us boil it down. I believe the following occurred. That when the city of Dalaran fell during Warcraft 3, it's community of High Elves was destroyed and scattered to the winds (not necessarily the people). Some went with Jaina to Kalimdor, which is an in game explanation for the fact Mage and Priest units in the Alliance armies during missions set in Kalimdor were High Elves. These individuals later settled in Theramore alongside Jaina.
    Some returned with Kael'thas to Silvermoon and became Blood Elves.

    Some remained around Dalaran to help them rebuild. When Kael returned at the head of the Blood Elven forces to assist Garithos, he would have shown up before he a.) split with the Alliance b.) went to Outland and sided with Illidan c.) sent Rommath back to teach the Blood Elves how to use those techniques to survive. These Elves would have had almost no reason not to side with their Prince, who lest we forget was the leader of the Thalassian Elf community prior to the fall of the city. There was nothing to schism over.

    When Garithos sentenced the Elves did death, he sentenced to death all the Elves associated with Kael i.e. most of them. These escaped. After Garithos' death and the destruction of his army, the Kirin Tor survivors and the few, few Elves who remained them erected a shield and rebuilt the city. Rhonin was elected head of the Kirin Tor. His wife Veressa began organizing the High Elves in the city, whom were not very numerous. The former community had been dominated by Mages. Given the nature of the addiction, it was the Mages who were the first to succumb to Illidan's promises and use the mana draining techniques. A few Magisters remained in Dalaran, but their struggle with the addiction would have been the hardest. These would be the High Elf Magisters of Dalaran, a tiny group (unrepresented on the Kirin Tor council of six).

    Veressa issued a rallying cry for any wandering High Elf who disagreed with the decision Silvermoon had made to come and join her. These tended to be ex Farstriders, borne out by the military nature of most remaining High Elves encountered. They had fought with the Alliance during the Second War and part of the Third, and felt a loyalty and kinship to the Alliance. They believed Silvermoon had betrayed the Alliance, not vice versa. Hearing the call of a former Farstrider, a Windrunner no less, they answered her call and arrived. This is the beginning of a new High Elf community in Dalaran, one much smaller than what came previously, but they had a place to start again.

    Survivors of the old community, those who had followed Kael but who had lived in Dalaran for millenia, still believed Dalaran was their home. Despite their allegiance to the Horde, this group of primarily Mages listened to the words of Aethas Sunreaver, formed the Sunreavers and returned to the city where they were not only readmitted, but lodged in a recreation of their old quarter (Jaina's flashback placed Kael squarely in the Sunreaver section after all before there even where Sunreavers).

    To sum up, the old High Elf community of Mages was destroyed (not killed). A new community formed from High Elf exiles from Silvermoon, drawn by Veressa and including a small fraction of the old High Elf civilian population, was formed. A large section of the old community returned in the form of the Sunreavers and both sides held animosity for each other based on their political opinions.

    You are attempting to argue that the Dalaran community of High Elves survived more or less intact and that the Silver Covenant is made up of a majority of that population. Your reason for doing so is to justify the existence of an expatriate community of High Elves that has dwelled in Dalaran for thousands of years as part of the wider argument for an Alliance High Elf allied race. If it is the same people, then they've been apart from Silvermoon for a very long time.

    I believe the evidence behind what I believe is much stronger, particularly given that Jaina herself terms the Sunreavers as the elves who taught Humanity magic and the Sunreavers insisted Dalaran was their home. The Sunreavers reacted to the purge precisely how you would expect the long term residents of the city to react under the circumstances. The Sunreavers, those Horde aligned mages, are the expatriate community you believe the Silver Covenant represents. The Silver Covenant consists of those who rejected Silvermoon a mere twelve years ago. There has been no time for differentiation.
    Honestly I do believe my explanation is far more simple, as your requires a lot of conjecture and speculation with no supporting evidence.

    Cause again, it's far more likely that the SC is just Dalaran High Elves against the BE and the Horde, as there is nothing to suggest they come from somewhere else.

    We have no reason to believe "most" elves left with Kael'thas back to Silvermoon, that's the issue. Considering that most of the Dalaran population, the ones evacuated, where mostly civilians, as the fighters stayed to defend the city from Arthas, it actually makes sense for most of that evacuated population to stay safe instead of dangerously returning to Quel'thalas. After this, wherever the Dalaran population was evacuated, we have no confirmation that Kael'thas had ever contact again with the Kirin Tor or any Dalarani populace. So the last time the Dalaran evacuees and Kael saw each other was very likely when he left for Silvermoon.

    Again, your point about the Sunreavers is not as strong as you think. It merely means that yes, Sunreavers ARE from the OG teachers of humanity, but not all of them, nor that they were at the time the majority or even a sizable portion of the elven population of Dalaran. I really don't think it's strong evidence at all. At best you have that most of the OG teachers returned with Kael, but you don't know if they are a majority or even particularly large group at the time. Because you are operating under the speculative notion that MOST of the Elves in Dalaran would have been of these OG teachers, which is pure speculation that really desestimates 3000 years of migration.

    Specially, considering that the large of the Dalarani Evacuee population would mostly be civilian, there's really no reason to even consider a large portion of them OG teachers.

    And that's the thing, you are making a big leap of conjecture claiming that most of the HE population was OG teacher and thus Sunreaver, while also making another huge leap saying that most of the SC would be exiled Farstriders, when again, you have no evidence of that.

    I do believe by going Occam's razor about this is the most likely explanation. The Silver Covenant is mostly made of elves of Dalaran that didn't return with Kael to Silvermoon and were radicalized by Vereesa. And again, even they are just a fraction of the overall Kirin Tor population. Because again, how Dalaran was presented in game, the city has a healthy elven population, and the only explanation for that that is simply that... they just didn't went with Kael to Silvermoon, for whatever reason.

  6. #8126
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    I used broad strokes to make my point just as there are those that use broad strokes when trying to argue against High Elves when we all know it's a bit more nuanced than that. If one is going to reduce High Elves to broad strokes, I don't see why the same cannot be done for all other Allied Races. Again, there are varying degrees of similarities as differences with each of the Allied Races that already exist. This is increased similarity that High Elves share with Blood Elves is similar to the differences between Highmountain and Mulgore Tauren. Or even the potential Wildhammer Dwarves, which we know devs also excitedly discuss.

    Nightborne are the Highborne portion of the Night Elves. They are the Night Elf counterpart of an Allied Race. You can reduce the "purple elves" bit all you want but there is a literal quest in-game making reference to this that I've linked many times, I'll do it one more time though I do not believe you haven't already seen it:

    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=49427/...r-purple-elves

    It's implying the connection there between Night Elves, which the Nightborne do have whether you'd like to downplay that or not. Again it is all about varying degrees of similarities and differences, that's my main point.



    Nightborne are still another form of "arcane/magic focused elf" they just bring that same concept in through a different view. This was in reference to you implying that a unique combination of already existing traits does not make something unique, when it clearly does and Nightborne are an example of that. You can look back over to discussions when people felt the Nightborne should have gone to Alliance over Horde and you will see many pointing out the similarities between the Nightborne and Blood Elves. Being another arcane focused elf did not stop them from becoming an Allied Race.

    Again, varying degrees of difference. You say there is no difference but we already see differences: Paler skin/hair colors, different npc voice chatter, no eye glow. That's not even including that when a race is made playable they get extra customization on top of that (this point also keeps being downplayed, but it is a fact).

    Their story in WoW has shown to taken a different turn than what the Blood Elves have gone through. In TBC they weren't being brain washed by their own society to accept their "new faction" (because they've never left the Alliance in the first place, even when their leaders asked them to), we also saw reference in-game to how High Elves regarded Blood Elves ("Don't worry, I'm not a Blood Elf, I won't suck the magic out of you"), and Wrath introduced the human/high elf city of Dalaran where we saw the largest gathering of High Elves. Cata we see Halduron ask Vereesa to help because he holds her fighters in high regard, even against Lor'themar's wishes. MoP exploded the rivalry between High Elves and Blood Elves into a bloody purge. Legion showed us the overall culture of each of the three elven groups: Blood Elves, High Elves, and Night Elves.

    Their story leaves room for more for sure, but they already have a lot to work with, certainly much more than races created out of thin air (Void Elves), and similar to other races that haven't done anything major for a long while but got added (Dark Iron Dwarves).



    No I was saying it's splitting hairs to say that the AR system is to bring about unique options, and then say only thing High Elves would bring is a "unique combination of things that exist", because that by definition would be unique and the Nightborne are a prime example of this. Let's take each of your Nightborne points and test High Elves against this:

    Unique model: Already pointed out differences between them and Blood Elves, this also isn't taking into consideration extra customization that would be added on top once becoming playable.

    Again, the difference between HMT and Mulgore Tauren is Antlers vs Horns, and Tattoos. Dark Iron Dwarves did not have fiery-wicked beards nor tattoos before becoming playable. You can't be someone that is okay with those additions/variations and then say High Elves must strictly stay the same way they are. Even Nightborne got additional hair colors once they became playable.

    The model is the easiest thing to change around.

    Fantasy: This one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic. As well as being the minority of their people and choosing loyalty to friends over family, they represent a different moral choice. That's very compelling and this isn't expressed by any current playable race.

    Architecture: High Elves have been shown to have architecture similar to Blood Elves with a blue paint job instead, I'll agree there. But they've also been relegated to Lodges as well; lodges that look more Night Elf and clearly not Blood Elf. This is another "easier thing" Blizzard can emphasize/change: the use of lodges for High Elf architecture.

    Story: This is another easy one, the High Elf story on Alliance following the split of High Elves and Blood Elves has been different. We already know from Chronicles that even before the split of identities (Blood Elf vs High Elf) there was already a different cultural/personality mindset between those High Elves who lived in human lands/kingdoms (like Dalaran) and those High Elves who stayed within the walls of Quel'thalas. That's strong seeding right there. It's been emphasized through WoW and just needs more brushing up if they become implemented as an Allied Race.



    Cmon, you know this is disingenuous. When people say they want to play High Elves they are specifically talking about that current group of elves on Alliance that still identify themselves as High Elves today.

    Do Blood Elves continue to identify themselves as High Elves? No they do not.

    It's not about playing a race, if that were the case we would not be having 2nd versions of existing races like another Tauren, another Dwarf, another Draenei, etc.

    Also, as from before, we know that Wildhammer Dwarves are something devs know about and discuss cool ideas about. Therefore we know that this player-manufactured "there won't be a 3rd race" isn't true until we see how they deal with Wildhammer Dwarves. Or High Elves for that matter since Ion told off-mic that High Elves not being in BFA doesn't mean they'll never happen.
    That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that Blood Elves and Alliance high elves do not fit neatly into two groups. Mulgore tauren and Highmountain tauren are not only from different tribes, but one of them has been blessed by Cenarius in a way the other was not. Nightborne were descended from the Highborne, a group with divergent physical and magical characteristics that were compounded by 10000 years of a different way of life. Even the Wildhammer dwarves are a group with a distinct shared heritage and culture that. On the other hand, everything that binds the various groups of high elves to each other binds them equally to the Blood Elves. The one exception is their political allegiance, which does not constitute a different culture or any kind of physical difference. If a high elf claims to be a Blood Elf, it is true.

    There are high elves who lived in Dalaran and became Blood Elves. There are high elves who served with the Alliance in the Second War and became Blood Elves. There is nothing that a high elf can be that a Blood Elf cannot. For that reason, any part of high elf culture reserved for an Alliance allied race should instead be available as Blood Elf customization, because Blood Elves share that culture and players are already invested in the Blood Elf playable race. Splitting what should be a single race's customization options into multiple allied races is unfriendly to players as is, but splitting those options between the two factions introduces visual inconsistency on top of that. I don't think it's a good option for the game overall.
    Last edited by protip; 2018-11-18 at 06:43 PM.

  7. #8127
    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that they are not different parts of the same race, Blood Elves and Alliance high elves are a single homogeneous group.
    I'm all for discussing the merits of playable High Elves, including the many conceptualizations (i.e. WCII-inspired High Elves) that have shown up throughout this thread. That being said, if you're going to preface your commentary with things such as the bit I've bolded, you're obviously intellectually incapable of participating in a discussion that requires an ability to recognize nuance and should just refrain from posting entirely, IMO.

  8. #8128
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    I'm all for discussing the merits of playable High Elves, including the many conceptualizations (i.e. WCII-inspired High Elves) that have shown up throughout this thread. That being said, if you're going to preface your commentary with things such as the bit I've bolded, you're obviously intellectually incapable of participating in a discussion that requires an ability to recognize nuance and should just refrain from posting entirely, IMO.
    Physiologically, it is true. But in any case, I adjusted the wording before you even posted, so maybe take a moment to breathe before you start talking shit.

  9. #8129
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The north of Ireland
    Posts
    6,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    I'm all for discussing the merits of playable High Elves, including the many conceptualizations (i.e. WCII-inspired High Elves) that have shown up throughout this thread. That being said, if you're going to preface your commentary with things such as the bit I've bolded, you're obviously intellectually incapable of participating in a discussion that requires an ability to recognize nuance and should just refrain from posting entirely, IMO.
    No other proposed Allied race in the game requires such an examination of 'nuance' to justify them. I believe 'temperament' has actually been used by some posters in an attempt to manufacture a difference, with High Elves being portrayed as 'nobler' to the more arrogant Blood Elves. Which of course begs the question, would kinder green Orcs qualify as an Allied race of their own accord?

    Leaving that aside, Protip is correct. Biologically, thematically and culturally, Blood Elves and High Elves are a homogenous group with the sole difference being their political opinion. In any debate, nuance can be important. But this particular debate revolves around that nuance and trying to use something small and insignificant to pretend Alliance High Elves are an entirely different category from the Blood Elves, which they are not as it was confirmed by the developers that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

  10. #8130
    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    Physiologically, it is true. But in any case, I adjusted the wording before you even posted, so maybe take a moment to breathe before you start talking shit.
    And precisely zero people believe, based upon your previous posts, that you were explicitly making a statement about their physiology. In any case, let's examine you're new-and-improved-now-100%-more-accurate-edited version:

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that Blood Elves and Alliance high elves do not fit neatly into two groups.
    As I suspected, another falsehood.

    Are you a Thalassian who has aligned himself/herself with the Alliance, believing that Quel'thalas joining the Horde was a terrible mistake? You're a High Elf.
    Are you a Thalassian who has aligned himself/herself with the Horde, believing that Quel'thalas joining the Horde was a great choice? You're a Blood Elf.

    You can't really get more clear than that.

  11. #8131
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    And precisely zero people believe, based upon your previous posts, that you were explicitly making a statement about their physiology. In any case, let's examine you're new-and-improved-now-100%-more-accurate-edited version:

    As I suspected, another falsehood.

    Are you a Thalassian who has aligned himself/herself with the Alliance, believing that Quel'thalas joining the Horde was a terrible mistake? You're a High Elf.
    Are you a Thalassian who has aligned himself/herself with the Horde, believing that Quel'thalas joining the Horde was a great choice? You're a Blood Elf.

    You can't really get more clear than that.
    That's exactly my point. There's no depth, because everything else about them is the same between both groups, or is not consistent throughout the group. You're being awfully rude for someone who can't see the forest through the trees.

  12. #8132
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No other proposed Allied race in the game requires such an examination of 'nuance' to justify them. I believe 'temperament' has actually been used by some posters in an attempt to manufacture a difference, with High Elves being portrayed as 'nobler' to the more arrogant Blood Elves. Which of course begs the question, would kinder green Orcs qualify as an Allied race of their own accord?
    The implication being made is that their temperamental differences and functionally unique cultural norms (be them inherited from their allies, or simply new formulated), would directly lend themselves to completely distinct cultural manifestations. Thus, it isn't the fact that these are "kinder, blue-eyed Blood Elves" that is necessarily what should be focused upon, but rather how divergent could "kinder, blue-eyed Blood Elves" be (realistically) after an 11-12 year period?

    As well, building off the the last response I made to you regarding your posited timeline for High Elves/Blood Elves, it is just as plausible that the cultural distinctions between High Elves and Blood Elves are centuries old as it is that they're only 11-12 years in the making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Leaving that aside, Protip is correct. Biologically, thematically and culturally, Blood Elves and High Elves are a homogenous group with the sole difference being their political opinion. In any debate, nuance can be important. But this particular debate revolves around that nuance and trying to use something small and insignificant to pretend Alliance High Elves are an entirely different category from the Blood Elves, which they are not as it was confirmed by the developers that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.
    This is clearly not something the Alliance-side questing designer(s) agrees with, considering they've described them very clearly as culturally distinct for the entirety of World of Warcraft -- visually, I'd agree with you if we're just considering them as they exist now, but nobody who proposes playable HE's seriously (meaning with all due consideration to the Horde and Blood Elf playerbases concerns) is actively asking for them to look anything like Blood Elves, culturally or biologically.

    I don't think folks who are serious about High Elves are angry with the fact that Blizzard decided to alter their standard physiology before implementing Void Elves; rather, I think they're angry because:

    1) The group they altered was Blood Elves. Not only were they not even remotely related to the political grouping that people have asked for since 2004, but Blizzard then continued to demonstrate that this political grouping is still active and engaged (there are literally High Elf NPC's present in every major engagement and in every major hub).

    2) The cosmological catalyst was the Void. A fundamentally dangerous power, which probably would've made more sense on groups who were known for dabbling in dangerous stuff (Void Elves being a Horde-aligned Allied Race would've addressed this, specifically).

    I sincerely doubt you'd find a whole lot of dislike for the exact same thing happening to any playable High Elves. I could easily see the Alliance playerbase being entirely alright with the Silver Covenant finding themselves unfortunate enough to be subjected to a transformative calamity, similarly to the Void Elves, whereby they're dropped in a vat of [Insert Cosmological Energy Here], they'd be fine as long as that power doesn't directly contrast with their cultural proclivities.

    Arcane (in a raw form, or maybe "Crystalline" as has been mentioned herein).
    A type of element (Water-based, Ice-based, Air-based, Lightning-based, Earth-based, Fire-based, etc.).
    Elune (unlikely, but possible).
    A totally Spirit-based take, might be interesting, and directly play into HE Shamans.

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    That's exactly my point. There's no depth, because everything else about them is the same between both groups, or is not consistent throughout the group. You're being awfully rude for someone who can't see the forest through the trees.
    There's nothing rude about telling you you're factually incorrect. I'm sorry you were born in the generation where being disagreed with prompts either violence or shirking back into your safeplace, but there's nothing I can do about that from my end.
    Last edited by Fyersing; 2018-11-18 at 07:40 PM.

  13. #8133
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    There's nothing about telling you you're factually incorrect. I'm sorry you were born in the generation where being disagreed with prompts either violence or shirking back into your safeplace, but there's nothing I can do about that from my end.
    I don't mind people pointing out when I'm "factually incorrect," but you insulted me personally over a trivial error in wording that didn't even have any bearing on my post. In your most recent post, you are again hurling pointless insults without basis. You are the one who is out of line here.

  14. #8134
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Disclaimer: Sorry for the large amount of texts, this is just a discussion topic I very much enjoy and like dissecting. But I understand it can be fatiguing with large amounts of text. Hence, no rush. I take my time with these, so should everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that Blood Elves and Alliance high elves do not fit neatly into two groups. Mulgore tauren and Highmountain tauren are not only from different tribes, but one of them has been blessed by Cenarius in a way the other was not. Nightborne were descended from the Highborne, a group with divergent physical and magical characteristics that were compounded by 10000 years of a different way of life. Even the Wildhammer dwarves are a group with a distinct shared heritage and culture that. On the other hand, everything that binds the various groups of high elves to each other binds them equally to the Blood Elves. The one exception is their political allegiance, which does not constitute a different culture or any kind of physical difference. If a high elf claims to be a Blood Elf, it is true.
    Blood Elves and High Elves very easily fit into two groups: One fights for the horde, and the other fights for the alliance. That's as basic as you can get with High Elves and Blood Elves. There are further differentiations which I've stated already: non-glowy eyes, paler skin/hair, and of course the iconic blue eyes.

    Those truly are all that is needed to differentiate between a High Elf and a Blood Elf. Again, outside of this discussion topic, no one gets confused by what is a High Elf when High Elves are talked about and what is a Blood Elf when Blood Elves are talked about. This only gets brought up by people trying to undermine the discussion and disingenuously refer to "High Elves the race" when what is being requested is "High Elves the group". The ones that still use that namesake in WoW to this day, and currently exist on Alliance and are only not playable.

    I really don't how you can lump Wildhammers in with Nightborne and Highmountain Tauren here. Even some player perception of Wildhammer Dwarves echoes what's said about High Elves: they're not worth a slot, slap some tats on Bronzebeards and call it a day. That's very similar to High Elves aren't worth a slot, slap some blue eyes on Blood Elves and call it a day.

    When I use Nightborne as an example it is meant to showcase that your point of comment about how "unique combos of things that already exist" is a unique option it itself. I am not using Nightborne to say that there isn't a long span of time to explain their differences.

    Nor do I use Highmountain Tauren as a way to say their lore makes their tribes similar to Mulgore Tauren. I use HMT to show that the outcome of such an Allied Race can be as little as 1 iconic feature (Antlers) + addition of tattoos and that's enough for Blizzard to make them an AR.

    So I'm not sure what you were trying to mean when you brought up the stories that explain the differences of Nightborne and HMT. As we see with Void Elves, Blizzard can very easily come up with lore to explain any addition of an Allied Race. With that said, more lore-related response below.

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    There are high elves who lived in Dalaran and became Blood Elves. There are high elves who served with the Alliance in the Second War and became Blood Elves. There is nothing that a high elf can be that a Blood Elf cannot. For that reason, any part of high elf culture reserved for an Alliance allied race should instead be available as Blood Elf customization, because Blood Elves share that culture and players are already invested in the Blood Elf playable race.
    That there are High Elves from Dalaran who went with Kael and returned as Blood Elves means nothing. The main point is, before the identity "Blood Elves" existed, there was already a difference of culture and identity between the majority of High Elves that lived in Dalaran/around Humans and those majority of High Elves that stayed in Quel'thalas (this latter group being the huge majority of High Elves that eventually become Blood Elves).

    If High Elf and Blood Elf culture were the literal same then such a schism would not have occurred between the two groups. Every High Elf would be identifying as a Blood Elf. That's not what happened. And it's not simply due to not wanting to suck magic out of beings and etc. Again, there were already differences in mannerisms and personalities between the majority of those staying in Dalaran vs the majority of those staying in Quel'thalas. How can you refute this? When even Kael'thas points it out himself within Chronicles Ver 3. When it was written in a book that even Vereesa would get made fun of by her Quel'thalas friends for spending so much time around humans.

    Culture is not solely physical alterations. Trying to regulate it this way does no favors. Looks will always be an easy thing to fall back on sure. Visuals help, of course they do. But not every Allied race is drastically different than its predecessor so trying to argue that each Allied Race must be wholly different is disingenuous. I mean the fact that you talk about Wildhammer being a group with distinct shared heritage and culture. That's practically the same with High Elves and Blood Elves.

    And there are things that Blood Elves can't be that High Elves are. 1) The biggest is the reliance on the Sunwell. 2) The reliance on magic within their group. These are huge factors that are not prevalent among High Elves but will always be prevalent and relevant to Blood Elves. A 3) is their faction loyalty: Blood Elves seemingly are staunchly supportive of Horde, while High Elves most certainly are not and are in fact staunchly supportive of the Horde's rival.

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    Splitting what should be a single race's customization options into multiple allied races is unfriendly to players as is, but splitting those options between the two factions introduces visual inconsistency on top of that. I don't think it's a good option for the game overall.
    Well this would hold more weight were it not for the recent various developer comments on 1)High Elf fantasy among the Alliance being possible (Alex Afrasiabi) 2) Cool ideas being thought up for Wildhammers (Jeremy Feasel) 3)High Elves not being in BFA doesn't mean they'll never happen (Ion Hazzikostas).

    1) Shows that the developers aren't adverse to giving Alliance "something like a High Elf feeling". Yes the context was in VE customization, but this does show definitively that Blood Elves would not have access to "any part of high elf culture reserved for Alliance" as you put it.

    2)This shows that the developers aren't adverse to allowing 3rd iteration of a playable race type, one that is also much more similar to an already playable type. The brainstorming of ideas shows that Blizzard will simply do more than "slap some tats to already playable dwarves" when it comes a similar race type.

    3)While again, this is hearsay, but if it was relevant enough for Obelisk to bring up it's relevant enough for the discussion going forward. Which is to say that Ion saying, "it doesn't mean High Elves will never happen" means that I do not ever see Blood Elves gaining anything that would relate them to what High Elf identity is maintained on in the Alliance. It also shows, along with Alex's commentary, that people who want High Elves on Alliance have a chance of that happening (in what form - we do not know), but that possibility still exists.

    As always, there are those that aren't okay with the idea. But there are also those that would absolutely love the idea. We can see from recent Blizzard developer comments that they are more open to the possibility for playable High Elves on Alliance than before.

  15. #8135
    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that Blood Elves and Alliance high elves do not fit neatly into two groups. Mulgore tauren and Highmountain tauren are not only from different tribes, but one of them has been blessed by Cenarius in a way the other was not. Nightborne were descended from the Highborne, a group with divergent physical and magical characteristics that were compounded by 10000 years of a different way of life. .
    Why do people keep referring to nightborne as "Descendant" and as "highborne" - do they have no idea of the lore?

    Nightborne are not descendants, they are original night elves that have had their bodies warped by the excessive consumption of arcane energy. They are not a society of descendants, most of them were born normal night elves. In fact, I would be shocked if a shal'dorei and kaldorei child were not identical, the warping only taking place as they mature and start consuming arcwine - quests particularly tell us the little children are not permitted to drink it till they are older.

    Nightborne were not all highborne, Elisande and the group she led to erect the shield over the city were, but not everyone there - the city is a standard night elf community of their pre-sundering era, elites were highborne, normal citizens, incl servants etc were not.


    I mean are you people clueless? I mean I watched the same cinematic everyone did and read the same lore in the night elf section of the Chornicles Volume 1 - played the same quests.

    Nightborne have highborne - they are not highborne.
    High elves are highborne, all of them - well technically they are highborne descendants, only night elves are highborne, when they are thalassian they are high elf - that's why 2 separate words are used. But that's being pedantic.

    We use highborne for night elves, whether kaldorei or shal'dorei - there are highborne existing amongst them who stayed highborne from the sundering, and all Thalassian elves are kin to ALL night elves, highborne is not a separate species of elf or night elf, it is just a caste. The highborne race are the high elves - and that word is no longer associated with their current status, instead high elf is used.
    Last edited by Beloren; 2018-11-19 at 10:40 PM.

  16. #8136
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    I sincerely doubt you'd find a whole lot of dislike for the exact same thing happening to any playable High Elves. I could easily see the Alliance playerbase being entirely alright with the Silver Covenant finding themselves unfortunate enough to be subjected to a transformative calamity, similarly to the Void Elves, whereby they're dropped in a vat of [Insert Cosmological Energy Here], they'd be fine as long as that power doesn't directly contrast with their cultural proclivities.

    Arcane (in a raw form, or maybe "Crystalline" as has been mentioned herein).
    A type of element (Water-based, Ice-based, Air-based, Lightning-based, Earth-based, Fire-based, etc.).
    Elune (unlikely, but possible).
    A totally Spirit-based take, might be interesting, and directly play into HE Shamans.
    I count myself among this. If High Elves had been under unfortunate circumstances doused with Void Energies aka "I didn't ask for this" then I would secede myself from this discussion. I wouldn't have entered it in the first place because I would see that Blizzard made these Alliance loyal High Elves into Void Elves and that this is their story going forward.

    That is not what we received though, we received some unheard group of Blood Elves -that sure, weren't agreeable to joining the Horde- that didn't have the years of dedicated build up to the Alliance that High Elves have had since WoW's inception and who continue to be sported among Alliance troops.

    Follow that up with the recent developer commentaries on High Elves and it's easy to see more and more that Void Elves do not relate to what makes High Elves interesting in their own right.

    Sure, I can see how some may see High Elves as a basic, boring option but there's a huge audience for that (one just has to look at the race/class combo breakdowns for this).

  17. #8137
    Anyway, why do people care so much about having high elves and others care so much about making sure they never happen?

    it's madness. Blizzard has done far more offensive stuff, and also not done stuff which you should consider as offensive.

  18. #8138
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Well talk about a non sequitur honey! If your counter argument to anything is "WELL HIGH ELVES AREN'T GOING TO BE PLAYABLE" It's pointless arguing with you about anything.

    As for blurring "faction identities" it's rather silly that in a game about FACTION WAR the division is arbitrarily made by race rather than you know... politics.

    Also "look sexy on a mog" Sigh, when peoople even after all this time don't even get why others want High Elves just really show a profound lack of comprehension or even understanding. Is it willful? People have spend so much time explaining all the lore reasons they want High Elves, and that you keep dismissing it as "wanting to look sexy" downright tells us you are not listening to anything is being said to you, and that you have already made your mind about why people wanting HE in a way that fits your narrative.

    You don't want to have a discussion, that is obvious, you just want to be right.
    "Look sexy on mog" was confirmed when a multitude of high elf fans were happy with the possibility of void elfs getting high elf customization (following Alex's comment). IF it were about the lore, the vast majority of high elf fans would have opposed this idea. Instead, only a small minority don't like the idea as opposed to the many who would be happy with a high elf skin for void elfs. That my friend, suggests it was always about the aesthetics (and subsequently the xmog). So how about look at the whole picture before tooting your horn.

    FACTION WAR in this game has PREDOMINANTLY been race based, not political. Politics have always been an aside. The RTS series literally started as orcs vs humans (ie race vs race). It then expanded on several other races in WCIII and subsequently WoW. Yes, there are some politics behind the scenes... but you are delusional if you think faction war has nothing to do with races. In the case of high elfs, they already exist in the Horde. There is a small subset of high elfs in the Alliance, with differing views to their kin in the Horde... but the fact that Blizz specifically introduced void elfs shows that even they agree that races are a major factor that divide the factions.. not politics.

    I'm down for a discussion...just not with someone who gets their knickers in a knot so easily.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Alleria Windrunner View Post
    The developers are clearly biased towards the Horde. Ion mains an Orc Shaman (enough said). The developers constantly make fun of the fact that Alliance mounts in this expansion are pathetic. The developers even insulted at a personal level Alliance PVP players at Blizzcon 2018. So long as these people are in charge of the game, High Elves will never be playable.
    You do realize it's well known that the Alliance give up on PVP (in bg's and warmode) frequently. How is Blizz insulting the Alliance when all the did was merely acknowledge this factual reality? They introduced AI to assist the Alliance (who frequently give up) and said your welcome. If you don't want Blizz's intervention, then don't run away from PVP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    No I was saying it's splitting hairs to say that the AR system is to bring about unique options, and then say only thing High Elves would bring is a "unique combination of things that exist", because that by definition would be unique and the Nightborne are a prime example of this. Let's take each of your Nightborne points and test High Elves against this:

    Unique model: Already pointed out differences between them and Blood Elves, this also isn't taking into consideration extra customization that would be added on top once becoming playable.

    Again, the difference between HMT and Mulgore Tauren is Antlers vs Horns, and Tattoos. Dark Iron Dwarves did not have fiery-wicked beards nor tattoos before becoming playable. You can't be someone that is okay with those additions/variations and then say High Elves must strictly stay the same way they are. Even Nightborne got additional hair colors once they became playable.

    The model is the easiest thing to change around.

    Fantasy: This one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic. As well as being the minority of their people and choosing loyalty to friends over family, they represent a different moral choice. That's very compelling and this isn't expressed by any current playable race.

    Architecture: High Elves have been shown to have architecture similar to Blood Elves with a blue paint job instead, I'll agree there. But they've also been relegated to Lodges as well; lodges that look more Night Elf and clearly not Blood Elf. This is another "easier thing" Blizzard can emphasize/change: the use of lodges for High Elf architecture.

    Story: This is another easy one, the High Elf story on Alliance following the split of High Elves and Blood Elves has been different. We already know from Chronicles that even before the split of identities (Blood Elf vs High Elf) there was already a different cultural/personality mindset between those High Elves who lived in human lands/kingdoms (like Dalaran) and those High Elves who stayed within the walls of Quel'thalas. That's strong seeding right there. It's been emphasized through WoW and just needs more brushing up if they become implemented as an Allied Race.
    In response:

    Unique model - NB are more unique than what HE would be.

    Fantasy - Quote from you "this one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic". Vareessa and Alleria are both haughty and extremely proud. High elfs in general are stuck up (like BE) and believe they are better than their kin. Their attitudes are ultimately the same. Can't really argue there. Plus they hold grudges. Again, same. So no, you're wrong here.

    Architecture - A lot of their architecture is the same as BE (just different coloring). No uniqueness there. Their lodges are similar to night elf architecture... again, no uniqueness.

    Story - This is the only one where there is some uniqueness. But A) this can be developed via NPCs and B) their story is minor and really only a subset of the main thalassian story (ie. blood elfs). Story is kind of a weak support for high elfs.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  19. #8139
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    In response:

    Unique model - NB are more unique than what HE would be.

    Fantasy - Quote from you "this one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic". Vareessa and Alleria are both haughty and extremely proud. High elfs in general are stuck up (like BE) and believe they are better than their kin. Their attitudes are ultimately the same. Can't really argue there. Plus they hold grudges. Again, same. So no, you're wrong here.
    They still express unity with humans, a common high elf theme, whereas Blood Elves continue to think they're the best. Even then, leaders don't account for all the generic High Elf NPCs that don't have the Blood Elf voice lines which is Blizzard's attempt to show a personality difference. Nice try. If leaders were the accurate representation of their citizens then Forsaken would all be undead cunning elves, which they are not. You're confusing the general populace with specific faction leaders.

    As for looks, it is the easiest thing for Blizzard to work around. There's plenty of amazing fan art out there with designs of High Elves.

    These are a few selections from fans of WoW's High Elves.















    Just because some here may not have the creativity to express the possible differences that this thread proposed in the OP, doesn't mean they don't exist. We know that Blizzard isn't adverse to adding High Elf fantasy to the Alliance anymore. They encourage to keep the conversation going. Our only responsibility (for those who want Alliance High Elves playable) is to show Blizzard the desire for it and help express how that desire can come to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Architecture - A lot of their architecture is the same as BE (just different coloring). No uniqueness there. Their lodges are similar to night elf architecture... again, no uniqueness.
    Yes and Void Elf architecture consists of nothing but floating rocks. Even their tents and tables are re-used assets that have already been in the game. They actually have no architecture. Their armor and weapon designs instantaneously became different upon becoming Void Elves:



    Time isn't a factor when it comes to adding different/unique armor/weapon designs, and neither is uniqueness in architecture. Blizzard will create what they deem sufficient enough. Trying to imply nothing can be expanded upon with High Elf addition is showing lack of coherence with how Blizzard has handled the additions with other Allied Races.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Story - This is the only one where there is some uniqueness. But A) this can be developed via NPCs and B) their story is minor and really only a subset of the main thalassian story (ie. blood elfs). Story is kind of a weak support for high elfs.
    High Elf story has seen more share than Gnomes, Worgen, and Draenei (until WoD) through the expansions we've had. You can call it minor if you wish, what would you expect from a minority race? But if you're someone that quests on an Alliance character chances are you will run into High Elves.

    Story matters a lot when it comes to Allied Races. Blizzard has said multiple times that the context of a race matters in terms of where it is added for an Allied Race. Downplaying the story component when it comes to High Elves is downplaying a major component of the Allied Race system itself in all honesty.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2018-11-19 at 12:11 AM.

  20. #8140
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Disclaimer: Sorry for the large amount of texts, this is just a discussion topic I very much enjoy and like dissecting. But I understand it can be fatiguing with large amounts of text. Hence, no rush. I take my time with these, so should everyone else.

    Blood Elves and High Elves very easily fit into two groups: One fights for the horde, and the other fights for the alliance. That's as basic as you can get with High Elves and Blood Elves. There are further differentiations which I've stated already: non-glowy eyes, paler skin/hair, and of course the iconic blue eyes.

    Those truly are all that is needed to differentiate between a High Elf and a Blood Elf. Again, outside of this discussion topic, no one gets confused by what is a High Elf when High Elves are talked about and what is a Blood Elf when Blood Elves are talked about. This only gets brought up by people trying to undermine the discussion and disingenuously refer to "High Elves the race" when what is being requested is "High Elves the group". The ones that still use that namesake in WoW to this day, and currently exist on Alliance and are only not playable.

    I really don't how you can lump Wildhammers in with Nightborne and Highmountain Tauren here. Even some player perception of Wildhammer Dwarves echoes what's said about High Elves: they're not worth a slot, slap some tats on Bronzebeards and call it a day. That's very similar to High Elves aren't worth a slot, slap some blue eyes on Blood Elves and call it a day.

    When I use Nightborne as an example it is meant to showcase that your point of comment about how "unique combos of things that already exist" is a unique option it itself. I am not using Nightborne to say that there isn't a long span of time to explain their differences.

    Nor do I use Highmountain Tauren as a way to say their lore makes their tribes similar to Mulgore Tauren. I use HMT to show that the outcome of such an Allied Race can be as little as 1 iconic feature (Antlers) + addition of tattoos and that's enough for Blizzard to make them an AR.

    So I'm not sure what you were trying to mean when you brought up the stories that explain the differences of Nightborne and HMT. As we see with Void Elves, Blizzard can very easily come up with lore to explain any addition of an Allied Race. With that said, more lore-related response below.

    That there are High Elves from Dalaran who went with Kael and returned as Blood Elves means nothing. The main point is, before the identity "Blood Elves" existed, there was already a difference of culture and identity between the majority of High Elves that lived in Dalaran/around Humans and those majority of High Elves that stayed in Quel'thalas (this latter group being the huge majority of High Elves that eventually become Blood Elves).
    My point here is that there is nothing that prevents a Blood Elf from appearing exactly the same as a High Elf. They share history and lifestyle up to and continuing past that point. Whatever differences there may be between elves in Quel'Thalas and elves in Dalaran cannot be used to distinguish between Blood Elves and High Elves because they are not mutually exclusive.

    If High Elf and Blood Elf culture were the literal same then such a schism would not have occurred between the two groups. Every High Elf would be identifying as a Blood Elf. That's not what happened. And it's not simply due to not wanting to suck magic out of beings and etc. Again, there were already differences in mannerisms and personalities between the majority of those staying in Dalaran vs the majority of those staying in Quel'thalas. How can you refute this? When even Kael'thas points it out himself within Chronicles Ver 3. When it was written in a book that even Vereesa would get made fun of by her Quel'thalas friends for spending so much time around humans.
    The problem here is again that different cultures in Quel'Thalas and Dalaran does not translate to different cultures between Blood Elves and High Elves, unless you can show them to be mutually exclusive. However, there are Blood Elves who lived in Dalaran, and essentially all high elves were born and raised in Quel'Thalas. Even that part of their history is shared.

    Culture is not solely physical alterations. Trying to regulate it this way does no favors. Looks will always be an easy thing to fall back on sure. Visuals help, of course they do. But not every Allied race is drastically different than its predecessor so trying to argue that each Allied Race must be wholly different is disingenuous. I mean the fact that you talk about Wildhammer being a group with distinct shared heritage and culture. That's practically the same with High Elves and Blood Elves.
    It's more than a leap of faith to say that Blood Elves and High Elves don't share a common culture and ancestry, and while I agree that culture isn't a physical change, I firmly believe there needs to be visual differences between various races so that the fantasy of a race can be expressed visually. I would argue that the way Blizzard uses art to express different fantasy themes is a fundamental part of Warcraft, and I think it's important that future races portray those themes in the same way.

    And there are things that Blood Elves can't be that High Elves are. 1) The biggest is the reliance on the Sunwell. 2) The reliance on magic within their group. These are huge factors that are not prevalent among High Elves but will always be prevalent and relevant to Blood Elves. A 3) is their faction loyalty: Blood Elves seemingly are staunchly supportive of Horde, while High Elves most certainly are not and are in fact staunchly supportive of the Horde's rival.
    What does it mean to be reliant on the Sunwell when all high elves are connected to it passively? The only difference here is how they sated their magical addiction while the Sunwell was destroyed. Because draining a crystal and draining a mana wyrm gives raw arcane energy either way, there is no difference here beyond attitude. Even if there was, a Blood Elf was not obligated to drain from living creatures, so there is reasonable doubt for some Blood Elves to have nearly or entirely the same experience as an Alliance high elf in terms of the magic they consumed.

    I'm not sure what you mean specifically by their reliance on magic, but some Blood Elves having unique characteristics relative to Alliance high elves doesn't mean that other Blood Elves aren't identical to Alliance high elves. Even if you can demonstrate a difference on average, my concern is that Blood Elf culture encompasses the entirety of high elf culture, while Alliance high elf culture is just a smaller part of that under a different banner.

    Well this would hold more weight were it not for the recent various developer comments on 1)High Elf fantasy among the Alliance being possible (Alex Afrasiabi) 2) Cool ideas being thought up for Wildhammers (Jeremy Feasel) 3)High Elves not being in BFA doesn't mean they'll never happen (Ion Hazzikostas).

    1) Shows that the developers aren't adverse to giving Alliance "something like a High Elf feeling". Yes the context was in VE customization, but this does show definitively that Blood Elves would not have access to "any part of high elf culture reserved for Alliance" as you put it.
    It's clear that they want to keep races and factions distinct, and while they have suggested that some further compromise was still a possibility, we have to assume that it will continue to be influenced by their desire for the races and factions to remain different in obvious ways. It is true that they have explained that nothing is impossible, but probabilities will surely be affected by how various ideas mesh with their ideals.

    2)This shows that the developers aren't adverse to allowing 3rd iteration of a playable race type, one that is also much more similar to an already playable type. The brainstorming of ideas shows that Blizzard will simply do more than "slap some tats to already playable dwarves" when it comes a similar race type.
    I think that's already been demonstrated by the fact that we already have four kinds of elves, but Wildhammer dwarves don't come with the same issues as high elves. Not only are they allied with the only faction that already has dwarves, but they have a longstanding history as a single distinct group with a unique shared heritage and culture. Blizzard can adjust the backstory and appearance of the Wildhammer without retconning the backstory of any existing playable characters. They have a much less limited design space than they do with High Elves.

    3)While again, this is hearsay, but if it was relevant enough for Obelisk to bring up it's relevant enough for the discussion going forward. Which is to say that Ion saying, "it doesn't mean High Elves will never happen" means that I do not ever see Blood Elves gaining anything that would relate them to what High Elf identity is maintained on in the Alliance. It also shows, along with Alex's commentary, that people who want High Elves on Alliance have a chance of that happening (in what form - we do not know), but that possibility still exists.

    As always, there are those that aren't okay with the idea. But there are also those that would absolutely love the idea. We can see from recent Blizzard developer comments that they are more open to the possibility for playable High Elves on Alliance than before.
    I think it's a bit dangerous to look at Alex's words as indicative of any future development. He only talked about potential and possibilities, not so different from Ion's suggestion that Blood Elves might get blue contact lenses. I don't want Void Elves and Blood Elves to appear any more similar to each other than they already do, and I think that the uncorrupted high elf model falls well within the story and fantasy of the Blood Elves, but that's not my choice to make. I won't speculate right now about what is actually going to happen, but I do think elf fatigue will last us a while yet, at least in terms of independent allied races.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    Why do people keep referring to nightborne as "Descendant" and as "highborne" - do they have no idea of the lore?

    Nightborne are not descendants, they are original night elves that have had their bodies warped by the excessive consumption of arcane energy. They are not a society of descendants, most of them were born normal night elves. In fact, I would be shocked if a shal'dorei and kaldorei child were not identical, the warping only taking place as they mature and start consuming arcwine - quests particularly tell us the little children are not permitted to drink it till they are older.

    Nightborne were not all highborne, Elisande and the group she led to erect the city were, but not everyone there - the city is a standard night elf community of their pre-sundering era, elites were highborne, normal citizens, incl servants etc were not.


    I mean are you people clueless? I mean I watched the same cinematic everyone did and read the same lore in the night elf section of the Chornicles Volume 1 - played the same quests.

    Nightborne have highborne - they are not highborne.
    High elves are highborne, all of them - well technically they are highborne descendants, only night elves are highborne, when they are thalassian they are high elf - that's why 2 separate words are used. But that's being pedantic.

    We use highborne for night elves, whether kaldorei or shal'dorei - there are highborne existing amongst them who stayed highborne from the sundering, and all Thalassian elves are kin to ALL night elves, highborne is not a separate species of elf or night elf, it is just a caste. The highborne race are the high elves - and that word is no longer associated with their current status, instead high elf is used.
    You got me, I didn't mention that many of the current Shal'dorei were once night elves. However, the Nightborne are no longer night elves - even the children had to be cured of magical addiction by the Arcan'dor. They are born with it, just like high elves. Also, in Chronicles 1, there is no mention of non-Highborne residents of Suramar, and the ruling class are referred to as elite Highborne. Regardless, the playable Nightborne have only just come out of their isolation tank, and have all gone without sunlight or moonlight for 10,000 years, all while being pumped full of arcane energy. There is plenty of reason for them to have a different culture and appearance from night elves.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •