Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[ninthbelief]

I'm open to all options. If Blizzard is utterly against using the blood elf model again, then I call using the night elven model the "kul tiran solution": a different body type for high elves. If not, then using the thalassian model is just as fine.

Nah, the problem with High Elves was subraces not existing -- now that they do (regardless of whatever Blizzard calls the system), the only thing to wait for is another WoD->MoP->Legion scenario where Blizzard has to bait people back with x big thing (Demon Hunters/Illidan/Legion threat in the case of the Legion expansion).

We're thankfully much closer to that with how terrible BFA has been for Blizzard's public image, but you have to account for how many people will feel Blizzard ""redeemed"" themselves with flying (already announced for 8.2), Vulpera, Junker Gnomes, any other Allied Races Blizzard might try to shoehorn in (if that's even possible at this point, but we are "missing" 2 allied race models if that's how the system works, for Worgen and Undead), and the inevitable player sub cycle of the next expansion being announced -- 8.3->9.0 period will bring a (relative) ton of players back even if it's garbage simply because it's something of a habit for whatever reason (marketing/nostalgia?) for players to sub at the end of the expansion in "preparation" for the next.

At this point, High Elves are all but inevitable, especially with how the discussion has somehow lived a decade+the Ioning+the community bludgeoning that happened as a result for months afterwards. It's just a matter of if it's coming in a year or in ten, because they're not gonna break the glass until they feel like they have to. As Bellular has pointed out though, there's a deep sense of lost faith in Blizzard from the community right now, so I (personally, as someone who is pro High Elf, so there's a disclaimer) think High Elves are coming sooner rather than later. I have no idea how they handled their whole situation so poorly thus far.

I don't know if High Elves would be enough to make me resub after they butchered the GCD, but it'd be enough to talk the boycott over again with friends and family for sure.

And for sure, they'll use a tweaked Blood Elf model, like the Night Elves and the Nightborne. It'll just be different posture and idles but that's what most people would be happy with anyway, I think. Void Elf explicitly didn't do any of that.

[DeicideUH]

I hope you are right. I've kinda lost faith, been fighting more to show displeasure of Blizzard's decisions than hope of achieving what we want. I still can't believe how bad was void elf lore. It's something Blizzard created without passion, care or planning, as if only to quickly fill a quota. And lightforged draenei weren't far behind.

[Traycor]

I'm open to all options. If Blizzard is utterly against using the blood elf model again, then I call using the night elven model the "kul tiran solution": a different body type for high elves. If not, then using the thalassian model is just as fine.

Oh, I'd love a whole new model for High Elves, similar to what the Kul'Tirans got. It just seems like a big ask. Whatever gets the job done, I'm happy with.

[ninthbelief]

I hope you are right. I've kinda lost faith, been fighting more to show displeasure of Blizzard's decisions than hope of achieving what we want. I still can't believe how bad was void elf lore. It's something Blizzard created without passion, care or planning, as if only to quickly fill a quota. And lightforged draenei weren't far behind.

I think VE lore could be great if it stands separately from the other races (specifically HE/BE/Ethereals), but in WoW right now, with two of those races not playable, their story definitely rings sort of exhausting to me.

FWIW, yes, I can guarantee High Elves are coming -- like I said though, I don't know if that means they're coming as a last batch of races in BFA, or if they're coming in 9.0, or if they're coming literally years from now. Based on Blizzard's history, I'd say it'll depend entirely on how hard WoW continues to fall in the public eye.

And don't condemn anyone who says they aren't coming or whatever -- a crucial part of them coming is that these discussion sites like mmo-c and the battle.net general discussion forums have High Elves as a discussed race more than any other. The argument keeps that idea at the front of these discussion sites, so in a sense, the "nay-sayers" or "anti-high elfers" or whatever you'd call them are doing their part in making sure they happen. If the discussion had died proper last year, I think it'd be a different story, but there are still hundreds of posts a day about High Elves.

I personally am not waiting to wait the six years or whatever it's gonna take for them to panic, so I've moved onto other MMOs, but I do like to hop on free non-official forums once in a while and check the discussion. I think that's the healthiest approach.

[HeiAggra]

High Elves are Blood Elves.
Prince kael'thas sunstrider rename them after the attack of the scourge on silvermoon.
Check the Lore and the offical race page on blizz. High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race 100%
They just changed the name nothing more.

[Alixie]

That's a cool throwback when the vanilla High Elves use modified Night Elf models.

Buuuuuuut...a race this iconic to the Alliance should have their own unique model, instead of one cobbled together from other races, or just a recolor of the blood elf model. I'm partial to the skinny alpha blood elf model, since all of the current elf models are some degree of beefy. On one hand, skinny models fit spell casters better, and would make it easier to create an elderly elf wizard, which is an option that is lacking, including ones with dark human skin tones. On the other hand, most of the helf groups, Allerian, the Silver Covenant, and the Highvale (who forgo magic completely) are militaristic or living in rugged conditions that they'd naturally be more bulkier than their more decadent living cousins.

[Obelisk Kai]

That's a cool throwback when the vanilla High Elves use modified Night Elf models.

Buuuuuuut...a race this iconic to the Alliance should have their own unique model, instead of one cobbled together from other races, or just a recolor of the blood elf model. I'm partial to the skinny alpha blood elf model, since all of the current elf models are some degree of beefy. On one hand, skinny models fit spell casters better, and would make it easier to create an elderly elf wizard, which is an option that is lacking, including ones with dark human skin tones. On the other hand, most of the helf groups, Allerian, the Silver Covenant, and the Highvale (who forgo magic completely) are militaristic or living in rugged conditions that they'd naturally be more bulkier than their more decadent living cousins.

It is important to emphasise yet again that High Elves are NOT an iconic Alliance race. If they were as iconic and central to the Alliance as you and others are suggesting, they would have added them to the game as one of the first four Alliance races all the way back in vanilla. They went with Gnomes instead, a race whose sole contribution to the franchise up to that point had been piloting Alliance aircraft in Warcraft 2.

Arguing they are iconic contradicts the storyline of this franchise and reaches beyond Warcraft to wider fantasy tropes, that because Elves, Humans and Dwarves are eternal allies in other fantasy franchises (Warhammer, Lord of the Rings, Dungeons and Dragons etc.) then the High Elves of this franchise must be an iconic part of yet another Human led coalition.

The storyline of the Warcraft High Elves is not of a group that has clung to it's principles and it's allies through every catastrophe and challenge. It is the story of a group that were the very last to join the original Alliance, which they did under compulsion, were the very first leave, who feel they were betrayed by humanity during the last act of the High Elves, who renamed themselves the Blood Elves and who then joined the Horde.

According the status of 'iconic race' to a people currently at war with the Alliance is a perverse reading of the situation and is unfair to the races that are actually iconic to the Alliance.

In contrast the Blood Elves, the redefined High Elves of the Warcraft franchise, are an iconic Horde race. Like many races in the game, there exist rebel factions outside the racial mainstream such as the Freebooter Kul Tirans who assist the Horde or the Grimtotem Tauren who attack everyone, yet nobody claims Kul Tirans are an iconic Horde race because of that assistance, or that the Grimtotem are an iconic Alliance race because of that one time they assisted the Alliance. Similarly, that a few thalassian renegades (and I mean a few) have on occasion assisted the Alliance does not grant them the status of 'iconic'. They are nothing of the sort.

And as for hoping they get a brand new model, when the Void Elves the Alliance actually did get would have a far better claim to one given that the Void Elves went through an actual transformation, that remains the stuff of fantasy even within a fantasy.

[Traycor]

It is important to emphasise yet again that High Elves are NOT an iconic Alliance race.

I lol'd

[Obelisk Kai]

I lol'd

Do you have a counter-argument beyond that?

[Katchii]

I lol'd

You do realize High Elves as a whole literally abandoned the Alliance after the second war right? The only High Elves that were still allied with the Alliance were those that kind of splintered off and stayed in Dalaran alongside the Kirin Tor and then Alleria's faction that were marooned beyond the dark portal after it collapsed.

They fought alongside the Alliance in the second war, so there are Elven archers in that game, but that's it. Calling them an "iconic" race is a bit of a stretch.

Sure, there are those that stayed somewhat loyal to the Alliance that's a true statement, but they're NOT an iconic Alliance race.

[Traycor]

Do you have a counter-argument beyond that?

Sure. High Elves were part of the lore in Warcraft I. They had units in WCII and had an actual named hero character. The Archer/Ranger unit was a core unit that saw LOTS of play in all WCII games. The core of Alliance armies were human footman and high elf archers. In WCIII they were a huge part of the story.

Compare that with gnomes, that you are saying were a core/iconic Alliance race because of their playable inclusion at the beginning of WoW. They didn't exist in WCI. They had 2 units in WCII and a building, no characters, no story. And they weren't in WCIII at all. By the time WoW rolled around, gnomes even being in the Alliance (or existing in Warcraft at all) was basically forgotten.

[Combatbutler]

Sure. High Elves were part of the lore in Warcraft I

I don't recall the elves being mentioned once, while playing the game.

. They had units in WCII and had an actual named hero character. The Archer/Ranger unit was a core unit that saw LOTS of play in all WCII games. The core of Alliance armies were human footman and high elf archers.

And it ended with them leaving the Alliance after the war

In WCIII they were a huge part of the story.

Yeah standing on their own, as their kingdom gets ransacked and in TfT we follow them as most of them forge a new identity and break ties with the Alliance for good.

So saying they are iconic to the Alliance isn't really true, it shows a rather complicated relationship with the Alliance.

[The Stormbringer]

High Elves are Blood Elves.
Prince kael'thas sunstrider rename them after the attack of the scourge on silvermoon.
Check the Lore and the offical race page on blizz. High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race 100%
They just changed the name nothing more.

Then I guess those High Elves that still exist with blue eyes, as members of the Alliance, who are in no way associated with the Blood Elves don't exist!

[Traycor]

You do realize High Elves as a whole literally abandoned the Alliance after the second war right?

Not as a whole. They abandoned the Alliance as a nation. Based on old numbers, 10% of the remaining population was still allied with the Alliance, which is a big percentage. With the new retcons, we have a bunch more Alliance High Elves that survived. That's part of the reason you've continued to see High Elves on the Alliance side through the expansions of WoW. It would be silly for one of our iconic races to just *poof* disappear. It wouldn't make sense.

They fought alongside the Alliance in the second war, so there are Elven archers in that game, but that's it. Calling them an "iconic" race is a bit of a stretch.

Did you ever play WCII? Your army was basically footmen and archers. It was half an army of elves. And your core water unit was an elven destroyer. All your scouting was done with rangers. The elven ballistas were your main siege unit. High Elves were some of the most core units on Alliance side. In the WCIII expansion, the only "Alliance" campaign you could even play was all blood elf, all the time. Even them leaving the Alliance was the Alliance campaign.

It was pretty obvious pre TBC that the blood elves that didn't join Kael'thas were going to rejoin the Alliance for the xpac. Faction population killed that, but it was the right call. I played Alliance on a PvP server and the Horde numbers were abysmal.

Sure, there are those that stayed somewhat loyal to the Alliance that's a true statement, but they're NOT an iconic Alliance race.

There's also the deep history of the humans and High Elves having a 3000 year alliance. Players have consistently made the playable High Elf Alliance request because they are an iconic Alliance race.

[Obelisk Kai]

Sure. High Elves were part of the lore in Warcraft I. They had units in WCII and had an actual named hero character. The Archer/Ranger unit was a core unit that saw LOTS of play in all WCII games. The core of Alliance armies were human footman and high elf archers. In WCIII they were a huge part of the story.

Compare that with gnomes, that you are saying were a core/iconic Alliance race because of their playable inclusion at the beginning of WoW. They didn't exist in WCI. They had 2 units in WCII and a building, no characters, no story. And they weren't in WCIII at all. By the time WoW rolled around, gnomes even being in the Alliance (or existing in Warcraft at all) was basically forgotten.

You mention Gnomes didn't exist in Warcraft 1. Neither did High Elves. Citing Warcraft 1 as you did proves my point, the expectation of what you THINK should be there is colouring your perceptions of what actually was there. The only races that existed in Warcraft 1 were Orcs and Humans.

The Warcraft 2 High Elf forces belonged to the Kingdom of Quel'thalas which, as detailed in Chronicles and the novel Tides of Darkness, had to be compelled to join the Alliance (last in) and were the first out. Initially the Kingdom of Quel'thalas sent a small, token force to assist the Alliance. Alleria was not chosen to lead this force because of her standing within High Elven society, but because she was in a small minority who saw the Horde as a threat and she was dispatched to get her out of everyone's hair because she was bothering them...something which has become a hallmark of the character in her relationship with her people. Following the Horde's direct attack on Quel'thalas, the Kingdom threw it's full might into the war effort but as soon as the Alliance won they sought an excuse to leave and once they did so they departed really fast.

And in Warcraft 3 the story of the High Elves, what Lady Liadrin rightfully called the 'last act of the high elves' in the Blood Elf heritage questline (which details the end of the High Elves as they were), was brought to a conclusion with the destruction of their kingdom, their near extinction, the change of name into Blood Elves and their departure from the Alliance. So yes, High Elves were a huge part of the story of Warcraft 3 but I fail to see why you are citing those events as supporting your argument that High Elves are an iconic Alliance race.

Gnomes in contrast are an iconic Alliance race because they have been visible members of the Alliance since Warcraft 2 and have been a playable Alliance race since the beginning of World of Warcraft. The contribution of the Gnomes to the Alliance has also been far, far greater than what the High Elves ever offered. Leaving aside the technology they bring to the table, in Warcraft 3, the game you mention they didn't appear in, they contributed. Because you gloss over the lore reason why they didn't appear, their decision to face the Trogg invasion of Gnomeregan alone and to not distract their allies from the critical fight against the Burning Legion. And were they reproachful to the Alliance because of this? Did they blame the Alliance for their loss? Nope, to this day they still fight by the side of the Alliance, unwavering in their loyalty.

They have absolutely earned their status as an iconic race of the Alliance over the years and far more deserving of it than the race that literally switched sides and is currently waging war on the Alliance.

- - - Updated - - -

Then I guess those High Elves that still exist with blue eyes, as members of the Alliance, who are in no way associated with the Blood Elves don't exist!

They are in every way associated with the Blood Elves. That is the point and the problem.

- - - Updated - - -

There's also the deep history of the humans and High Elves having a 3000 year alliance. Players have consistently made the playable High Elf Alliance request because they are an iconic Alliance race.

?

The Troll Wars were thousands of years ago and after it was over the Elves buggered off back to Quel'thalas and their isolationism. They maintained relations, but there was no Alliance. If any human cities could be seen as approximating allies for the High Elves it would have been Dalaran, because of a shared interest in magic, and Lordaeron due to their shared proximity to each other.

The people of Lordaeron of course comprised the bulk of the Alliance forces in Warcraft 2.

And the people of Lordaeron are currently playable. In fact, when the Blood Elves were added back in TBC, one NPC in the game wistfully talked of working with their old elf friends again. These are the NPCs you see spawned for big events, who wander around throwing an idle comment or two while it is going on.

Could you recall for me whom the people of Lordaeron are now and which faction they serve and whom they follow?

[Combatbutler]

Then I guess those High Elves that still exist with blue eyes, as members of the Alliance, who are in no way associated with the Blood Elves don't exist!

Even the most militant of high elves love Quel'thalas. High elves are tied to the blood elves, a cut from blood elves is possible after several generations, but the high elves of today have parents, siblings, spouses, friends etc. that ultimately tie them to the blood elves.

[Varx]

You guys are right lore-wise high elves are an iconic alliance race. However, also lore-wise, they are physically identical to blood elves, a core Horde race.

Now between the two the belves are the playable ones. Making the helves playable is asking for the panda treatment as they have no dramatic physical difference that could justify them as an AR like every other AR has.

Also there is no lore reason to give them a new rig from belves. KT humans are still humans but at least there's reasoning as to why they're fat and have a unique rig.

Giving helves an unjustified new skeleton just to pander to you helfers is just raping the integrity of WoW to appease your unhealthy obsession.

[Katchii]

Not as a whole. They abandoned the Alliance as a nation. Based on old numbers, 10% of the remaining population was still allied with the Alliance, which is a big percentage. With the new retcons, we have a bunch more Alliance High Elves that survived. That's part of the reason you've continued to see High Elves on the Alliance side through the expansions of WoW. It would be silly for one of our iconic races to just *poof* disappear. It wouldn't make sense.

So you acknowledge that the High Elves abandoned the Alliance. I'll get more into this in a sec.

Did you ever play WCII? Your army was basically footmen and archers. It was half an army of elves. And your core water unit was an elven destroyer. All your scouting was done with rangers. The elven ballistas were your main siege unit. They were some of the most core units on Alliance side. In the WCIII expansion, the only "Alliance" campaign you could even play was all blood elf, all the time. Even them leaving the Alliance was the Alliance campaign.

It was pretty obvious pre TBC that the blood elves that didn't join Kael'thas were going to rejoin the Alliance for the xpac. Faction population killed that, but it was the right call. I played Alliance on a PvP server and the Horde numbers were abysmal.

You're referencing the Second War campaign as if it's still true. Yes the High Elves were allied with the Alliance in the second war. So what?

You're also making statements about the WCIII campaign that are factually untrue. During the WCIII campaign, High Elves were still High Elves. In WCIII:Frozen Throne, the campaign was you taking an active part in the High Elves leaving the Alliance and renaming themselves Blood Elves. It was not all Blood Elves, all the time. You're literally experiencing the fact that High Elves willfully left the Alliance, for a VERY good reason, and renaming themselves Blood Elves. Highlighting the fact that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

Personally I think any Alliance aligned High Elf is a traitor to their race based on the events of that campaign. Though I would understand why those who weren't witness to those events would come back at the Horde aligned Blood Elves and say that the Blood Elves are the traitors.....politics

There's also the deep history of the humans and High Elves having a 3000 year alliance. Players have consistently made the playable High Elf Alliance request because they are an iconic Alliance race.

And that alliance ended quite swiftly when a human commander tried to commit genocide against them. Deep history may be there, but it's not exactly a good one or one that lends itself well to High Elves being part of the Alliance.

Just because they WERE an iconic race, doesn't mean they still ARE.

That said, I don't care if they become an Alliance Allied Race or not, there's enough lore to support them being there.

[Traycor]

Highlighting the fact that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

I'll reply to that with a quote from the OP:

Groups

When we talk about High Elves and Blood Elves, we're really talking about three distinct groups:

1. WCII elves
2. WCIII Blood Elves
3. MMO Blood Elves

Group 1: the elves of WCII are the High Elves of today. These include the farstriders who left and the magi of Dalaran. Group 3: the blood elves of today's mmo WoW did not get involved in the first, second, and third wars (with some rare exceptions) because they didn't want to be involved.

Group 2: the blood elves of WCIII became the villainous blood elves of Outland and the Isle of Quel'Danas that remained loyal to Kael'Thas. They drew from both other groups, so some were from Dalaran and some were from Silvermoon. Group 3: the blood elves of today's mmo didn't go quite as full-on Kael'Thas. Group 3 also stayed home.

Group 3: the MMO WoW blood elves are the ones who joined the Horde. We don't really have examples of them prior to WoW itself, because the ones we did see in WCIII all died. Void Elves also fall under Group 3.

The history of these three groups throughout the franchise is very distinct with very little overlap. Group 1: the High Elves honored their old alliance to the humans and went off to fight their wars. They lived in Dalaran and mingled with human kingdoms. That's in sharp contrast to the (Group 3) Blood Elves that were isolationist and thought the whole humie-loving thing was madness. Group 2: the WCIII blood elves that followed Kael were kinda in the middle of these two groups. They had no problem romping around everywhere, but they also had no problem with Kael's crazy, which they fell into.

Players asking for playable High Elves as an Allied Race are looking to play members of Group 1. This is something we cannot do with Group 3, the Blood Elves of WoW or the Void Elves. They are different, and they have done different things, had different loyalties, and had different affiliations throughout the franchise.

Just because they WERE an iconic race, doesn't mean they still ARE.

So basically you're saying that they were an iconic Alliance race, but an iconic Alliance race was not made playable. That is true. But they are still there and have been throughout WoW, on the Alliance side. We just can't play them right now.

[Combatbutler]

When we talk about High Elves and Blood Elves, we're really talking about three distinct groups:


Group 1: the elves of WCII are the High Elves of today. These include the farstriders who left and the magi of Dalaran. Group 3: the blood elves of today's mmo WoW did not get involved in the first, second, and third wars (with some rare exceptions) because they didn't want to be involved.

And this here is already wrong, most of the sunreavers lived in dalaran for centuries, some of them taught the first humans magic and are horde aligned, Lor'themar theron the guy that leads the blood elves today, was part of the Rangers that fought alongside the Alliance during the second war for example and used to be a close friend to Alleria.

You try to make a clear distinction, which simply does not exist. Many among the blood elves of today fought and bled beside the Alliance.