Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aldo Hawk]

Again, you are using the false equivalence, dwarves and orcs are already in a distinction of genre, not just specie

Green orc and maghar orc are both orcs, both not the same specie of orcs, they have not just decades of racial difference they also came from another reality and didn't suffer the effects of corruptions by drinking demon blood

Meanwhile Warsong orcs and frostwolves orcs are both orcs YET the same specie of orcs, they just chose to rename themselves in another clan(group)

XD This has to be a joke. Both of them -are- the same species, a change in skin color due to fel corruption do not change their species, and even taking into consideration that we don't know jack shit about WoW DNA of races and if fel corruption modifies their DNA we can't 100% assure they even are a different race, except if we specifically talk about Blackrock orcs, that without any kind of corruption already had visible differences.

And don't even try to bring up their green children. Fel corruption is... well... a corruption, it does pass as a kind of disease. Can't even confirm it is due to them being a different race lol...

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I think it boils down to "is it naturally passed to their off-spring on conception?" to be considered a "new race", at least to me. I mean, getting a tattoo, coloring your hair or losing a limb aren't exactly things that you pass to your off-spring.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Worgen_curse

Well then it seems Worgen is just the transformation Gilneans can have through the curse, and not a race by itself, it's druidical by definition. So Gilneans are not a new race, but just humans that can transform into beasts. Cool!

Btw i would love to see playable Gilneans being able to fight without the worgen form, so we can have 'plain' human druids.

And Night elf worgen, that would be so cool *_*...

[ddi2]

Yes, they are.

Chris Metzen himself said it in 2005.
Ion Hazzikostas said it again in 2017.

Ion Hazzikostas repeated himself in 2018.

Three very explicit statements, over 12 years apart, all saying the same thing. Who are you to say they are wrong? This is why I said your attitude on this matter is arrogant, that you say something and expect us to treat it as more authentic than what the people who built the world are saying.

Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Light following, magic using, traditional Tolkien style Elves. The sort of option every self respecting fantasy MMO offers. It just so happens that in this particular universe, they fight beside the Orcs and against the Humans.

A fading group of refugees who cling to a vanishing past do not have primacy over that group.

As for 'High Elf places are hostile to you', is the Sunwell hostile to Horde players? Is Eversong Woods? Is Silvermoon City?

The Horde does fight high elves, for Alliance High Elves ARE High Elves too.

Traitorous ones. The vast majority of the high elves still serve their people as a part of that Horde.



The Void Elves do not have a civilian population. Nor do they have a large one. They have been defined as a small, elite squad. The difference between Void Elves and Alliance High Elves is that an explanation has been given as to why there are more of them, that they can convert other Elves who seek them out. Therefore a Blood Elf or an Alliance High Elf might just simply decide to switch to wield the powers of the void, and after a short interval of time they would become a Void Elf. There is no mystery as to why there will always be more Void Elves, as new ones can be said to be tempted at a fairly consistent pace.

Alliance High Elves do not have this option. While defections are hypothetically possible, none has ever been depicted. Reproduction would take a lot of time, and we have been told so often that the Alliance High Elf population is tiny that we have to assume there isn't much of a base there to grow from. That, and Elisande chose her words carefully. They are accused of mingling with lesser races and diluting the bloodline, which is clearly code getting too close to humanity and propagating Half Elves.

What are the high elf settlements?

[Obelisk Kai]

They. Are. Not.

The very game makes a distinction. The novels and short stories make distinction.

As Horde, you fight high elves. High elf places are hostile to you.

Repeating the same lie again and again does not make it true. Blood elves are not high elves, not anymore. Their paths diverged a decade ago.

Yes, they are.

Chris Metzen himself said it in 2005. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3uz...w&index=3&t=0s

Ion Hazzikostas said it again in 2017. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkdTS_8Y61Q

Ion Hazzikostas repeated himself in 2018. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik9-2ygS8

Three very explicit statements, over 12 years apart, all saying the same thing. Who are you to say they are wrong? This is why I said your attitude on this matter is arrogant, that you say something and expect us to treat it as more authentic than what the people who built the world are saying.

Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Light following, magic using, traditional Tolkien style Elves. The sort of option every self respecting fantasy MMO offers. It just so happens that in this particular universe, they fight beside the Orcs and against the Humans.

A fading group of refugees who cling to a vanishing past do not have primacy over that group.

As for 'High Elf places are hostile to you', is the Sunwell hostile to Horde players? Is Eversong Woods? Is Silvermoon City?

The Horde does fight high elves, for Alliance High Elves ARE High Elves too.

Traitorous ones. The vast majority of the high elves still serve their people as a part of that Horde.

Yeah, because suddenly there are thousands of exiles interested in being dipped into void juice and risk corruption. Including civilian population like bakers or smiths, and soldiers like rangers or warriors, who never had a lot of interest in arcane but suddenly are itching to be infused with the most dangerous type of magic ever until their skin turns blue and their thoughts are not their own anymore.

And they'll all live in some tents in a rock in space.

But there's too few high elves. Makes sense.

The Void Elves do not have a substantial civilian population, they can't because they do not have a large one, I can only think of that innkeeper near the embassy in fact. They have been defined as a small, elite squad. The difference between Void Elves and Alliance High Elves is that an explanation has been given as to why there are more of them, that they can convert other Elves who seek them out. Therefore a Blood Elf or an Alliance High Elf might just simply decide to switch to wield the powers of the void, and after a short interval of time they would become a Void Elf. There is no mystery as to why there will always be more Void Elves, as new ones can be said to be tempted at a fairly consistent pace.

Alliance High Elves do not have this option. While defections are hypothetically possible, none has ever been depicted. Reproduction would take a lot of time, and we have been told so often that the Alliance High Elf population is tiny that we have to assume there isn't much of a base there to grow from. That, and Elisande chose her words carefully. They are accused of mingling with lesser races and diluting the bloodline, which is clearly code getting too close to humanity and propagating Half Elves.

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Hence: hypothesis!

Dude. Hypothesis are unconfirmed by nature. When you confirm a hypothesis, it's no longer a hypothesis. it becomes a fact.

Again, do I really need to list word definitions?

Then what are we arguing over on this particular back and forth? Could it happen? Yes, but we have no evidence it ever has.

Yes, they can. They're the writers of the game's lore. They can do literally anything they want, story-wise. Mention a group of high-elves that wasn't mentioned before to boost their numbers? They can! Pull high elves from another dimension? Of course! Make the blood elf society have a huge internal dispute that makes many of those elves leave Silvermoon and join the high elves? Easily!

Well, yes, THEY CAN. I said 'WE CANNOT', which is what you originally stated. Only Blizzard can undo what they said about Alliance High Elves. And on every single occasion they have talked about Alliance High Elves, they have made sure to mention their incredibly low population, far below what other supposedly dying races have. And if they ever do that, congratulations, the population argument will be rendered moot due to a gigantic retcon. But we can do nothing about that. All we have at this moment in time are their statements saying there are too few High Elves. Something they have never wavered from, either in game or in public interviews.

It's not irrelevant, no matter how hard you wish it to be. The high elf community is asking for high elves, not blood elves. And yet, with your constantly 'blood elves are high elves', you continue to imply that all high elves as being blood elves. They're not. There is a distinction between the two, that makes them want high elves.

Yes, it is irrelevant. As a Blood Elf IS a High Elf and confirmed by multiple sources to be so then what the High Elf community is asking for is a duplicate of an existing Horde race. The option to play a High Elf is therefore available for anyone who wishes to play one and the choice not to play a Blood Elf is also a choice not to play a High Elf.

But not all high elves are blood elves.

Yes and the fact you cannot play a Dragonmaw Orc doesn't mean you cannot be an Orc. That is why this is irrelevant.

One particular, important item of the "high elf fantasy" is that they're part of the Alliance. Another particular item is that they refused to cause harm to animals to sate their addiction. Those are not present in the "blood elf fantasy". The "blood elf fantasy" is the fantasy of a race that will do whatever it takes to survive and endure, including letting go of their ancient principles. The "high elf fantasy" is the fantasy of a race that would stick to their principles.

Why is their membership of the Alliance such an intrinsic part of the fantasy? I take severe issue with that assertion. They left the Alliance. There is entire third of the Frozen Throne campaign dedicated to how the Alliance betrayed them and they left as a result. That is not the High Elf fantasy. The High Elf fantasy is to be a 'Blonde, pale-skinned, majestic elf', i.e. the Tolkien standard trope that has been used numerous times in fantasy fiction. It seems every high fantasy setting seemingly has this option and in this setting, that is what a Blood Elf is and if you want to play that, the Horde is waiting for you. Faction choice comes with race choice in this setting.
And before you place the High Elf remnant on too high a pedestal, remember they betrayed their families, their friends and their peoples for a foreign power. There is little nobility in treason. To say traitors have a greater claim to the identity of being a High Elf because of who they are allied way is to confer that right upon other peoples within the game. Only the High Elves have a right to decide who they are and what they are called, not Humans. And they have decided to call themselves Blood Elves, a part of the Horde.

The whole reason void elves are all purple is because of the void corruption ritual that Alleria stopped when she saved Umbric and his research team. Why is it so alien to you to consider that the more refined, safer procedure the void elf magisters research would allow some elves to retain their natural skin color? Especially since we know it is possible thanks to the existence of Alleria?

We do not know that due to the existence of Alleria. Alleria is a Void Elf who came by her powers a completely different way that involved eating a fallen Naaru. Now any thalssian elf who eats the heart of a fallen naaru, they might be able to replicate what Alleria has accomplished but fallen Naaru seem to be very rare and I am sure the Naaru would prefer us to try and save those who fallen rather than feed them to shadow hungry thalassian elves who are concerned about going a darker shade of purple. Alleria is unique, she is a hero character, the same way Anduin is a sword wielding Warrior Priest. She is not bound by normal rules. And as she is unique, she is not a point of reference.

The procedure used now to convert other Elves into Void Elves is by definition more refined and safer, as the people performing it would be taking greater care of those volunteering for the transformation than the Nether Prince did with the original batch. Yet what evidence is there that the procedure would result in a physically different outcome? Every Void Elf has the same set of skin tones and the tendency to sprout tentacles. In fact, what is the basis for the idea that they maintain their natural skin tones? Is it something based in lore? No, it is not. It is based on a wish to have a Void Elf that looks like a High Elf. Is it possible Blizzard could do this? Yes it is. Do I believe it likely? Nope, because I stated in my previous response the Void Elf look is deliberate. They have the skin tones they do because it evokes the void and the shadow and draws a contrast with the standard high elf embodied by the Blood Elf, a race now bathed in light. It is a deliberate aesthetic choice for Void Elves to look like they do. So while it is possible Blizzard might do something with Void Elves, I pretty much guarantee they really don't want to as the Void Elf aesthetic is a part of the package

]It's not. Good try though. No, not really.

It is irrelevant because the only points of differentiation I see cited are a.) their eye colour, which could be a Blood Elf option once eye colour customization is extended and is an incredibly small detail to be fixated on b.) their supposedly nobler attitude, which is a strange adjective to ascribe to traitors and really hard to put onto a character creator (how would a noble elf looks different from a sorrowful elf for example) and c.) Their political allegiance to the Alliance, which is irrelevant given that the vast majority of the race they are a part of is loyal to the Horde.

So of those three, one is miniscule, one is entirely subjective and impossible to convey visually and one is irrelevant. Of course it is the third difference that is the key issue, and has always been the key issue. Had Blood Elves joined the Alliance in TBC, and the storyline could have been easily written to work out that way, do you imagine yourself arguing for real blue eyed High Elves at this point or is it possible you'd have accepted the narrative that Blood Elves are High Elves, they just renamed themselves and got some green eyes. I somehow doubt the fact they don't have blue eyes would be quite as vexing under those circumstances as it currently is.

It is the faction the Blood Elves are on which is the true issue here and always has been. The issue has never been with Blood Elves, the spin on High Elves embraced in the warcraft franchise. It is the company they keep as a part of the Horde.

[Syegfryed]

Hello?

Blood elves are High elves by race.

i don't give a flying faks about what they call themselves, they are the same race, its all that matters as long blizzard add races

He isn't.

he is and i show why

Not, because:

you also try to say something and said nothing

Those two examples are still two pairs of different groups, call it whatever you like.

but one are, beside being a different group, a different species/races and the other are just different groups

It's called an -Allied- race for a reason, they aren't literal Sub-races.

they are more than sub-race they are another race altogether, another race of dwarf, another race of tauren, etc.

Btw damn Kul'tirans.

another race of human

All humans belong to the same race: (species) Humans. Word of God confirmed this.

not the kul'tirans, the ones that became playable, they are not the same race of human

Warcraft Humans do not have ethnicities because they do not separate themselves by physical characteristics. For example:
Taelia Fordragon is from Lordaeron.
Flynn Fairwind is from Kul Tiras.
Danath Trollbane is from Arathor.
Genn Greymane is from Guilneas.

Again you are forcing a comparison, those "groups" of humans fall in the same bag of orcs clans, they are the same with different names

kul'tirans show to have drust ancestry or at least hundread years of isolation and different conditions the normal process of specialization, unlike elves who had less than a decade with the same conditions.

This is also the second major argument; People of the same race must be uniform in appearance. Again, the Humans prove that members of the same race can look different than each other, without the excuse of magical transformation or drinking irradiated water.

except the kul'tirans do have changes, unlike elves, that is supported by lore, unlike elves, they don't simple chose to be different

no matter how how a stormwind human try he will never get a shape or the kul'tirans racials

This is where arguments turn into 10 page long circular arguments because there's no agreement about clans, tribes, and fractions. Elves are the polar opposite of Humans.

they are not btw, you again, forcing a wrong comparison

They separate themselves by everything, including physical appearance.

who? cause every human despise some individuals in kul'tirans are equal

The irony is that players insist that all elves are the same,

because they are? say they are not is like saying a human in the old town and a human in the mage quarter are a different race of human becaused they are separated by district in a small spawn of time

In conclusion, if you believe that we cant have two playable versions of the same race, or that everyone of that race must look the exact same, then Humans prove you wrong.

except humans of kul'tirans do have background and lore reasons to look different, not just "they rename themselves", while elves don't, so again, comparing the 2 is wrong, just because A equal B don't mean A equal C

And if you agree that multiple playable versions of the same race work because they are separated by clans or nationalities, then High Elves will work.

they don't work, is dumb

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XD This has to be a joke. Both of them -are- the same species

i already show you that they are not

a change in skin color due to fel corruption do not change their species, and even taking into consideration that we don't know jack shit about WoW DNA of races and if fel corruption modifies their DNA we can't 100% assure they even are a different race,

Blizzard already said fel magic work like radiation and radiation alter the DNA if exposed in big quantities, exactly what orcs have passed

Even after the corruption fading away with the death of Manoroth green orcs still are born from green orcs, this is a genetic change.

If we don't know about DNA stuff, we only have morphological tools to differentiate species/races, and just by this we can without a problem say they are different

except if we specifically talk about Blackrock orcs, that without any kind of corruption already had visible differences.

because they can keep changing? that the green color, now natural to orcs, can change again by other kind of mutation or environment?

And don't even try to bring up their green children. Fel corruption is... well... a corruption, it does pass as a kind of disease. Can't even confirm it is due to them being a different race lol...

corruption stop and fade away with Manoroth's death

the corruption made then a different specie/race, pretty simple;

[DeicideUH]

Chris Metzen himself said it in 2005. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3uz...w&index=3&t=0s

Yes, Chris say "blood elves are our high elves", and then proceeds to say how blood elves evolved from high elves.
"Blood elves serve as our example of what happens to a group of people when they just won't stop playing with it [magic] or abusing its power."
"Illidan taught the blood elves - the now named blood elves - how to syphon demonic energies, how to syphon ambient arcane energies from air, and in doing so he damned the last vestiges of the high elven race to retain their magic addiction but feed it with really unwholesome energies."

There you have it, the moment the blood elves and high elves turned into two different things. He does not goes into it, but we know there's still high elves that didn't take that path, didn't rename themselves and remained in the Alliance, and thus are not covered in that speech. It's amazing that you refuse to see the obvious. High elves and blood elves are not the same thing.

High elves and blood elves are not the same thing. They share an origin, but their paths diverged ten years (in-lore time) ago.

Ion Hazzikostas repeated himself in 2018. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik9-2ygS8

"Basicly, blood elves kind of are high elves. [they have] different eye color, different backstory, [in terms of] you know, their different relationship to magic, but that's it"
There you have it, Ion saying high elves have a different culture. Ion's entire comparison between blood elves and high elves is about appearance. "If you want to be fair skinned, tall, majestice elf". If that's the problem, transform them, damn it! But retain what makes them different, which is the backstory that he himself acknowledges.

Instead, Blizzard transformed blood elves into void elves. But we didn't ask for blood elves, we asked for high elves. And void elves fundamentaly contradict that very same "different backstory" and "relationship to magic" that makes high elves unique.

[Ielenia]

526 pages and all I read is:
mimimi, we need ̶b̶̶l̶̶o̶̶o̶̶d̶ high elves for alliance.
And it will never happen. Deal with it.

Would you like a list of "things that will never happen" that "happened"?

[Aldo Hawk]

omegasnip

Seriously, try to partake anything else than a tantrum monkey stance and then we talk.

Since you refuse to acknowledge straightforward examples and educated guesses there isn't anything serious to discuss with you.

Btw:

you also try to say something and said nothing

I did but you care more about attacking through fallacies that you didn't even noticed.

[Gurluas]

Yes, Chris say "blood elves are our high elves", and then proceeds to say how blood elves evolved from high elves.
"Blood elves serve as our example of what happens to a group of people when they just won't stop playing with it [magic] or abusing its power."
"Illidan taught the blood elves - the now named blood elves - how to syphon demonic energies, how to syphon ambient arcane energies from air, and in doing so he damned the last vestiges of the high elven race to retain their magic addiction but feed it with really unwholesome energies."

There you have it, the moment the blood elves and high elves turned into two different things. He does not goes into it, but we know there's still high elves that didn't take that path, didn't rename themselves and remained in the Alliance, and thus are not covered in that speech. It's amazing that you refuse to see the obvious. High elves and blood elves are not the same thing.

High elves and blood elves are not the same thing. They share an origin, but their paths diverged ten years (in-lore time) ago.


"Basicly, blood elves kind of are high elves. [they have] different eye color, different backstory, [in terms of] you know, their different relationship to magic, but that's it"
There you have it, Ion saying high elves have a different culture. Ion's entire comparison between blood elves and high elves is about appearance. "If you want to be fair skinned, tall, majestice elf". If that's the problem, transform them, damn it! But retain what makes them different, which is the backstory that he himself acknowledges.

Instead, Blizzard transformed blood elves into void elves. But we didn't ask for blood elves, we asked for high elves. And void elves fundamentaly contradict that very same "different backstory" and "relationship to magic" that makes high elves unique.

This. I think many High elvers would have been happy if instead of Void elves we got a High elf based race that remained true to the High elf backstory, lore and ideology instead of grabbing Blood elves, corrupting them more and plopping them in the Alliance. This thread is about changing High elves sufficiently to be in the Alliance while still retaining what makes them enticing to begin with.

My personal idea are Ice elves. The High elves end up in an arcane accident that changes them and partially crystallizes them. Turning them icy blue, with crystalline hair and such. Yet they remain the High elves they used to be and follow the same ideology, with the Silver Covenant and Vereesa being the main racial faction.

This incident could be caused by the Sunreavers as revenge, and thus you reignite the High elf vs Blood elf feud while making High elves distinct enough to be playable. Perhaps Vereesa loses one of her sons too, giving her a reason to take the fight to the Horde, yet the other son she kept prevents her from going the Jaina route.

[Syegfryed]

Seriously, try to partake anything else than a tantrum monkey stance and then we talk.

you mean try to accept the bullshit you talk? no talk

Since you refuse to acknowledge straightforward examples and educated guesses there isn't anything serious to discuss with you.

i mean you already refuse to acknowledge basic biology things and be educated when you are wrong about then, yes its rly not worth discussing with you.

I did but you care more about attacking through fallacies that you didn't even noticed.

you are just the one using fallacies like false equivalence pal

[delus]

This is incredible, seriously... how can someone like to hear himself so much and not wanting to be reasonable for once? it's not okay.

The real question I want to know is what will he do with his free time when they are added?

[DeicideUH]

This. I think many High elvers would have been happy if instead of Void elves we got a High elf based race that remained true to the High elf backstory, lore and ideology instead of grabbing Blood elves, corrupting them more and plopping them in the Alliance. This thread is about changing High elves sufficiently to be in the Alliance while still retaining what makes them enticing to begin with.

My personal idea are Ice elves. The High elves end up in an arcane accident that changes them and partially crystallizes them. Turning them icy blue, with crystalline hair and such. Yet they remain the High elves they used to be and follow the same ideology, with the Silver Covenant and Vereesa being the main racial faction.

This incident could be caused by the Sunreavers as revenge, and thus you reignite the High elf vs Blood elf feud while making High elves distinct enough to be playable. Perhaps Vereesa loses one of her sons too, giving her a reason to take the fight to the Horde, yet the other son she kept prevents her from going the Jaina route.

There's no shortage of ways. My favorite is to continue the Isle of Thunder story, with the Storm-stave of Antonidas being used to transform them into "storm elves". But you could even go into a simpler story by having them find a way to sever their connection with the Sunwell, which causes some physical backlash, and they cover themselves in runes to feed their addiction: runic elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

Yes, Chris say "blood elves are our high elves", and then proceeds to say how blood elves evolved from high elves.
"Blood elves serve as our example of what happens to a group of people when they just won't stop playing with it [magic] or abusing its power."
"Illidan taught the blood elves - the now named blood elves - how to syphon demonic energies, how to syphon ambient arcane energies from air, and in doing so he damned the last vestiges of the high elven race to retain their magic addiction but feed it with really unwholesome energies."

There you have it, the moment the blood elves and high elves turned into two different things. He does not goes into it, but we know there's still high elves that didn't take that path, didn't rename themselves and remained in the Alliance, and thus are not covered in that speech. It's amazing that you refuse to see the obvious. High elves and blood elves are not the same thing.

High elves and blood elves are not the same thing. They share an origin, but their paths diverged ten years (in-lore time) ago.


"Basicly, blood elves kind of are high elves. [they have] different eye color, different backstory, [in terms of] you know, their different relationship to magic, but that's it"
There you have it, Ion saying high elves have a different culture. Ion's entire comparison between blood elves and high elves is about appearance. "If you want to be fair skinned, tall, majestice elf". If that's the problem, transform them, damn it! But retain what makes them different, which is the backstory that he himself acknowledges.

Instead, Blizzard transformed blood elves into void elves. But we didn't ask for blood elves, we asked for high elves. And void elves fundamentaly contradict that very same "different backstory" and "relationship to magic" that makes high elves unique.

'Blood elves are out High elves' Is a remark comparing Blood elves to the classic definition of a High elf, only Obelisk is twisting it to mean anything like 'Blood elves are the High elves of world of warcraft/our franchise', which is not what Chris meant there, as stated mere seconds before, saying: 'So we have always been excited to re look at the High elves and attempt to do something with them that to our knowledge has not been done in pop fantasy up to this point. Yeah, there's sort of cool worlds out there right?'

Also let's take into account that this is still development time for TbC. Chris Metzen also said that Illidan thought them how to siphon 'ambient arcane energies', which is something we know is not how it finally went.

[Varx]

I got to know, what is the big appeal to the elves specifically from warcraft 2 since its been stated multiple times that's it's not about the model (which I believe is completely BS) and has caused the rejection of velves, belves, neutral elves, and every other idea that doesn't involve an AR for "pure alliance" high elves.

I mean you could argue the whole wooland theme is easily achieved with nelves.

What is it so special about them that you guys want nothing else.

I mean imagine if someone wanted to play a pure Gilnean or normal kul tiran human and outright refuse to play a SW human because "my immersion".

I get the passion, just not the practicality.

[Aldo Hawk]

The real question I want to know is what will he do with his free time when they are added?

Cat videos, the answer is always cat videos.

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I got to know, what is the big appeal to the elves specifically from warcraft 2 since its been stated multiple times that's it's not about the model (which I believe is completely BS) and has caused the rejection of velves, belves, neutral elves, and every other idea that doesn't involve an AR for "pure alliance" high elves.

I mean you could argue the whole wooland theme is easily achieved with nelves.

What is it so special about them that you guys want nothing else.

If at this point you didn't already got it is entirely only your problem.

Crystal clear: Alliance High elves, those that were there since the start.

Seriously... Bollocks...

[Obelisk Kai]

Yes, Chris say "blood elves are our high elves", and then proceeds to say how blood elves evolved from high elves.
"Blood elves serve as our example of what happens to a group of people when they just won't stop playing with it [magic] or abusing its power."
"Illidan taught the blood elves - the now named blood elves - how to syphon demonic energies, how to syphon ambient arcane energies from air, and in doing so he damned the last vestiges of the high elven race to retain their magic addiction but feed it with really unwholesome energies."

There you have it, the moment the blood elves and high elves turned into two different things. He does not goes into it, but we know there's still high elves that didn't take that path, didn't rename themselves and remained in the Alliance, and thus are not covered in that speech. It's amazing that you refuse to see the obvious. High elves and blood elves are not the same thing.

High elves and blood elves are not the same thing. They share an origin, but their paths diverged ten years (in-lore time) ago.


What more need be said. Chris Metzen said 'Blood Elves are our High Elves'. Talk about ultimate word of God. And it completely proves you wrong that Blood Elves are not High Elves, as you stated earlier, when the author of the franchise's lore can contradict you.

The problem here is that you see Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves as equivalent groups. They are not. Blood Elves are not only High Elves, they are the true definition of what a High Elf is within the Warcraft universe. They have the Sunwell, the lands of Quel'thalas, the city of Silvermoon, the Magisters, the Farstriders as well as the vast majority of the population. And they conform to what the genre trope of a High Elf is expected to be.
Alliance High Elves on the other hand are a tiny population living in exile in Dalaran, whose numbers are no longer sufficient as of Legion to maintain their own district anymore. They are traitors to their people but they are not a separate race from their people, nor do they have the right to define themselves as the true heirs of the legacy of their people.

Where your quoting of Chris Metzen falls apart is where you cite the circumstances at the beginning of TBC to demonstrate how different they are. This is an example of being highly selective with your sources, because as we all know the circumstances described by Chris changed at the end of the burning crusade with the restoration of the Sunwell. The Blood Elves no longer syphon demon magics, or syphon ambient arcane energies (something reflected in game with the removal of the mana tap racial in the Wrath of the Lich King). So if that was the moment the Blood Elves and the High Elves turned into two different things, a debatable proposition in itself as the High Elves of the Alliance were as equally crippled by the addiction, then the restoration of the status quo ante erased the point of difference.

In fact, as the Shadow of the Sun proved, Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves feed on the same sunwell again. And as the Quel'Serrar questline proved, even the few remaining Alliance High Elves hold the Sunwell in reverence and still sought pilgrimage to it. Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves walk different paths politically. But that political difference is nowhere near enough to accord Alliance High Elves a superior claim to the legacy of Quel'thalas.

"Basicly, blood elves kind of are high elves. [they have] different eye color, different backstory, [in terms of] you know, their different relationship to magic, but that's it"
There you have it, Ion saying high elves have a different culture. Ion's entire comparison between blood elves and high elves is about appearance. "If you want to be fair skinned, tall, majestice elf". If that's the problem, transform them, damn it! But retain what makes them different, which is the backstory that he himself acknowledges.

Instead, Blizzard transformed blood elves into void elves. But we didn't ask for blood elves, we asked for high elves. And void elves fundamentaly contradict that very same "different backstory" and "relationship to magic" that makes high elves unique.

Different eye colour is obvious, most Alliance High Elves have blue eyes and most Blood Elves have green eyes. Golden eyes prove eye colour is mutable though, which is why some of us hope to see a blue eyed option available on Blood Elves, which Ion may have hinted at with his 'contact lenses' promise.

Their different relationship to magic? Hard to know what that means, both groups are addicted to magic and both sate it via the Sunwell and both still exalt the Sunwell given the pilgrimages. It is the fundamental, and I would say defining, characteristic of the entire high elf race. Given we cannot ask him to clarify it, we can only extrapolate based on our knowledge. Frankly, the majority of the Alliance High Elves are likely former Farstriders. Either part of the small group that defied Anasterian to follow Alleria through the Dark Portal (who likely returned to Azeroth once the Outland campaign is done), or those in the wildnerness who refused Illidan's teachings and founded the lodges, and who then later congregated in Dalaran under Veressa. An addiction to magic does not immediately equate to a magic user after all, so I would put forward the theory that what Ion meant was that the Alliance High Elves, as primarily Hunters, don't venerate magic as much and may regard the addiction as a burden. The Silver Covenant after all joined the Hunter class hall in Legion. Blood Elven society on the other hand, and likely the entire Kingdom prior to the fall, venerates and exalts magic. They glory in it, they have always gloried in it and they will continue to glory in it.

Perhaps it is not the Blood Elves' culture who has changed? Maybe it is the Alliance High Elves who are rejecting the magic that has always formed the core of their people's society even as they are assimilated into human society. Which of course, emphasises yet again how the Blood Elves are the true High Elves of the Warcraft universe.

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There's no shortage of ways. My favorite is to continue the Isle of Thunder story, with the Storm-stave of Antonidas being used to transform them into "storm elves". But you could even go into a simpler story by having them find a way to sever their connection with the Sunwell, which causes some physical backlash, and they cover themselves in runes to feed their addiction: runic elves.

Then they wouldn't be High Elves. As long as there is a physical change to accompany this, it would not infringe on the thematic or aesthetic integrity of the Horde or the Blood Elves. This is actually a good idea with one drawback.

This is exactly what they did with Void Elves. Find an external energy source, apply it to a group of elves to provoke a physical and thematic differentiation from the Blood Elves, and add it to the Alliance.

In other words, what you are suggesting is exactly what they have already done and for a small, vocal group of players it wasn't enough. Why would this suggestion work?
More to the point, whilst Blizzard's writing isn't exactly stellar, I think even they would baulk at the idea of another random group of Elves encountering yet another magical artifact and undergoing yet another unique transformation.

[Varx]

Cat videos, the answer is always cat videos.

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If at this point you didn't already got it is entirely only your problem.

Crystal clear: Alliance High elves, those that were there since the start.

Seriously... Bollocks...

I know the elves you're talking about i get it. I just want to understand wtf is the big deal about playing an elf who lore wise has been alliance since warcraft 2.

The passion behind that want has not really been explained in this thread I don't think.

Like i said how absurd would it be if a group began demanding normal gilneans or normal kul tirans when they could simply play a sw human.

[Aldo Hawk]

you mean try to accept the bullshit you talk? no talk

No, u. x1.000.000

i mean you already refuse to acknowledge basic biology things and be educated when you are wrong about then, yes its rly not worth discussing with you.

You clearly don't understand -basic- biology if you call another group of people with different skin color a literal different species. You don't even take -basic- biology seriousness when trying to justify fantasy races without basic biology things as empirical evidence of the living being you are referring to, such as biologic samples, anatomical structure, cycle of life, habitat, etc...

You are behaving as someone who in Spain is called a 'cuñado'. Someone who just talks and talks as if he knew about everything but cannot go deeper into that because his vision is short as his desire to be truly wise.

you are just the one using fallacies like false equivalence pal

Demonstrate it, if you are so certain just demonstrate it. Link the definition of the false equivalence fallacy by yourself if you got the guts and also the parts (within the context, you like to cut context out of things) where you think i'm plainly faulting to logic.

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I know the elves you're talking about i get it. I just want to understand wtf is the big deal about playing an elf who lore wise has been alliance since warcraft 2.

The passion behind that want has not really been explained in this thread I don't think.

Like i said how absurd would it be if a group began demanding normal gilneans or normal kul tirans when they could simply play a sw human.

@Syegfryed The bolded part is an example of false equivalence, just so you know.

We can play a Mag'har orc, who by gameplay is stated to be from Draenor, but you can easily roleplay it as a Mag'har from Outland.

The big difference is that you -cannot- do that with High elves. You have Horde Blood elves and Alliance Void elves, both of which do not fulfill the fantasy of playing as one of those Thalassians that stood with the Alliance all along.

Your personal liking on the matter cannot be taken as a factual point of legitimacy. At the end, it is only your personal view on the matter, nothing else.

[Varx]

No, u. x1.000.000

You clearly don't understand -basic- biology if you call another group of people with different skin color a literal different species. You don't even take -basic- biology seriousness when trying to justify fantasy races without basic biology things as empirical evidence of the living being you are referring to, such as biologic samples, anatomical structure, cycle of life, habitat, etc...

You are behaving as someone who in Spain is called a 'cuñado'. Someone who just talks and talks as if he knew about everything but cannot go deeper into that because his vision is short as his desire to be truly wise.

Demonstrate it, if you are so certain just demonstrate it. Link the definition of the false equivalence fallacy by yourself if you got the guts and also the parts (within the context, you like to cut context out of things) where you think i'm plainly faulting to logic.

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@Syegfryed The bolded part is an example of false equivalence, just so you know.

We can play a Mag'har orc, who by gameplay is stated to be from Draenor, but you can easily roleplay it as a Mag'har from Outland.

The big difference is that you -cannot- do that with High elves. You have Horde Blood elves and Alliance Void elves, both of which do not fulfill the fantasy of playing as one of those Thalassians that stood with the Alliance all along.

Your personal liking on the matter cannot be taken as a factual point of legitimacy. At the end, it is only your personal view on the matter, nothing else.

Ok so you could roleplay that a mag'har is from the MU time line but you cant role play that a void elf is a silver covenant helf that decided to embrace the void like alleria?

And it is not a false equivalence. They all would share the same model but are from a different faction and culture which is exactly the same as what you guys are asking.

[Ielenia]

Then what are we arguing over on this particular back and forth? Could it happen? Yes, but we have no evidence it ever has.

You already answered your own question: it could happen. The fact it hasn't, yet, is irrelevant. The point is that it could.

Well, yes, THEY CAN. I said 'WE CANNOT', which is what you originally stated.

Objectively false:

So we can with high elves. Blizzard could "handwave" another group into existence, or "handwave" their numbers. It wouldn't be their first time either. "Handwave". It's basically the more polite version of "asspull".

No, they cannot. They reason they can handwave Void Elves is that all you need to make a Void Elf is a willing Blood Elf or Alliance High Elf and dose of magical energy. This has been confirmed by the polygon interview and the ordinary thalassian elves within telogrus, so we know this happens.

You said "they cannot".

Yes, it is irrelevant. As a Blood Elf IS a High Elf and confirmed by multiple sources to be so then what the High Elf community is asking for is a duplicate of an existing Horde race. The option to play a High Elf is therefore available for anyone who wishes to play one and the choice not to play a Blood Elf is also a choice not to play a High Elf.

It is irrelevant. And the 'blood elf' experience is not the high elf experience, only the closest you can get with what you have access to, in-game. But those experiences are not one and the same. There are political and cultural differences between the two, as well as physical differences.

Yes and the fact you cannot play a Dragonmaw Orc doesn't mean you cannot be an Orc. That is why this is irrelevant.

You just explained why it's irrelevant. Those who want to be a Dragonmaw orc don't want to be 'any' orc. There are reasons for that. It's not hard to surmise what said reasons may be.

Why is their membership of the Alliance such an intrinsic part of the fantasy? I take severe issue with that assertion. They left the Alliance.

Not all of them did. A decent chunk did not. It's those loyal high elves people are asking for.

There is entire third of the Frozen Throne campaign dedicated to how the Alliance betrayed them and they left as a result.

You're lumping the entire Alliance to the actions of one acting commander that had no communication whatsoever with the rest of the human alliance at the time, meaning he did his own bidding without the approval from the rest of the Alliance? Ok. Shows your honesty. (or lack thereof)

We do not know that due to the existence of Alleria. Alleria is a Void Elf who came by her powers a completely different way that involved eating a fallen Naaru.

You say we don't... then you explain how we do. Fascinating. Also, Alleria did not defeat and consume a 'fallen Naaru', but a Void Revenant. Other than that, it's not that to hypothesize that killing (or using) other void creatures (likely less powerful but still strong) could be used to "create" new void elves.

It is irrelevant because the only points of differentiation I see cited are a.) their eye colour, which could be a Blood Elf option once eye colour customization is extended and is an incredibly small detail to be fixated on

Brown skin color could've easily been added to the orcs. Moose antlers could've easily been added to the tauren. Golden 'tats' could've easily been added to the draenei, etc, etc. And again, if the high elves were to get the 'Allied Race' treatment, they'd get other things to differentiate themselves from their blood elf kin.

c.) Their political allegiance to the Alliance, which is irrelevant given that the vast majority of the race they are a part of is loyal to the Horde.

It's not irrelevant. Because the high elves are not loyal to the Horde. They're loyal to the Alliance. The fact the majority of their kin is allied to the opposite faction is meaningless. Because they are not.

[Aldo Hawk]

Ok so you could roleplay that a mag'har is from the MU time line but you cant role play that a void elf is a silver covenant helf that decided to embrace the void like alleria?

And it is not a false equivalence. They all would share the same model but are from a different faction and culture which is exactly the same as what you guys are asking.

Void elves are presented as former Blood elves that got exiled from Silvermoon, got changed by a nether prince void trap and rescued just in time by Alleria Windrunner. The only thing that could make a Void elf a former High elf is if the Moorgard interview ends up materializing into actual Void elf development.

While we could end up with Void elves that are former High elves from the Alliance, there is still the part where they still aren't the High elves of the Alliance that would still exist within it, while also lacking their own Hub, voicelines, mount, heritage armor, classes that Void elves can and cannot be, racials, and character customization.

The only way for Void elves to be not just an actual compromise but the true Alliance High elf option would be for the HE to turn into Void elves as a whole. If that happens that would be fine by my standards, but until then let's still advocate for the initial desire.

Also, it -is- a false equivalence. Adding Void elves in the response modifies the initial meaning of what you clearly tried to imply, it's disrespectful to dismiss an answer changing the meaning of what has been said to fit with the response you got. Remember: 'Would be absurd to demand normal Kul'tirans or normal Gilneans, just play a plain Stormwindian'.