Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aldo Hawk]

With regard to the "anything is possible" comment from Ion, it's a perfectly reasonable (and expected) response to sate a "hungry" HE crowd. Yes anything is possible. But like I said to Aldo, it's possible high elfs could be killed off next expansion. Sometimes reading too far into the lines of something can be misguiding. In this case, you only need but stand back and look at Ion's comment from a distance to know that "anything is possible" is a polite way of saying "no". An important point to note is that his immediate response was (paraphrasing) "if you want to be a light skinned high elf the Horde is waiting for you", following with a "but anything is possible". So, the "anything is possible" appears to be an attempt to 'soften the blow' of sorry but high elfs are on the Horde comment he lead with.

Well then, you don't have -anything- to back your assertion of High elves being replaced with Void elves, ruled out, impossible to implement, etc...

What you wrote there was already spoke off a hundred times, be careful with what you take as a serious point because you could end up thinking your backyard is the prettiest one in the world.

[Strippling]

Weren't you complaining a few pages ago about people being rude in this thread ?

fanatic
/fəˈnatɪk/
noun
1.
a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal,
synonyms (applicable): devotee, diehard, ultra, activist

zeal
/ziːl/
noun
great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.
synonyms (applicable): passion, committedness, enthusiasm, eagerness, keenness

I wasn't being rude. High elf fanatics are devoted, active (ie activists) and passionate about the topic.

Some words have differing meanings depending on A) context, and B) their cultural use. Consider that next time before trying to "undercut" me

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Well then, you don't have -anything- to back your assertion of High elves being replaced with Void elves, ruled out, impossible to implement, etc...

What you wrote there was already spoke off a hundred times, be careful with what you take as a serious point because you could end up thinking your backyard is the prettiest one in the world.

I have no idea what you're on about anymore. So I'm ceasing my input into our debate.

In conclusion, neither of us have much to go by other than void elfs are playable and high elfs aren't. Make of that what you will.

[Aldo Hawk]

fanatic
/fəˈnatɪk/
noun
1.
a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal,
synonyms (applicable): devotee, diehard, ultra, activist

zeal
/ziːl/
noun
great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.
synonyms (applicable): passion, committedness, enthusiasm, eagerness, keenness

I wasn't being rude. High elf fanatics are devoted, active (ie activists) and passionate about the topic.

Some words have differing meanings depending on A) context, and B) their cultural use. Consider that next time before trying to "undercut" me

Fanatical zealots, that is what you are calling those who support high elves.

Very mature coming from you. Indeed. As mature as most of what you had been doing in here as victimizing only for your interests, claiming things you cannot back up and still dipping into it, not acknowledging simple things about the matter, exaggerated double standards, discrediting words of someone who spoke to Ion simply because he doesn't think like you...

Please, don't insult our intelligence.

[Garfurion]

fanatic
/fəˈnatɪk/
noun
1.
a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal,
synonyms (applicable): devotee, diehard, ultra, activist

zeal
/ziːl/
noun
great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.
synonyms (applicable): passion, committedness, enthusiasm, eagerness, keenness

I wasn't being rude. High elf fanatics are devoted, active (ie activists) and passionate about the topic.

Some words have differing meanings depending on A) context, and B) their cultural use. Consider that next time before trying to "undercut" me

Maybe you didn't mean it as an insult or to be rude, but in general "fanatic" has a negative connotation.


Fanatical comes from the word fanatic, which itself came from the Latin fanaticus, meaning "mad" or "inspired by a deity." The root word is fanum, or "temple." The original English meanings of both fanatic and fanatical implied that the person being described was insane with enthusiasm, like a religious zealot. The word fan is likely shortened from fanatic, and thus shares the same roots, but that word doesn't imply the same obsessiveness that fanatical does.

[Strippling]

Fanatical zealots, that is what you are calling those who support high elves.

Very mature coming from you. Indeed. As mature as most of what you had been doing in here as victimizing only for your interests, claiming things you cannot back up and still dipping into it, not acknowledging simple things about the matter, exaggerated double standards, discrediting words of someone who spoke to Ion simply because he doesn't think like you...

Please, don't insult our intelligence.

No where in my response is the word 'zealot' used. Zeal ≠ Zealot. Don't put words in my mouth, it's poor 'debatemenship'.

[Aldo Hawk]

I have no idea what you're on about anymore. So I'm ceasing my input into our debate.

In conclusion, neither of us have much to go by other than void elfs are playable and high elfs aren't. Make of that what you will.

You do, but refuse to face it.

Bring up a source that can back up your stance on High elves being ruled out or replaced with Void elves.

That's a thing you can't do, because it's -false-. Then by that the next time you try to pass that as valid it should rightfully be pointed out as the lie it is.

[Strippling]

Maybe you didn't mean it as an insult or to be rude, but in general "fanatic" has a negative connotation.


Fanatical comes from the word fanatic, which itself came from the Latin fanaticus, meaning "mad" or "inspired by a deity." The root word is fanum, or "temple." The original English meanings of both fanatic and fanatical implied that the person being described was insane with enthusiasm, like a religious zealot. The word fan is likely shortened from fanatic, and thus shares the same roots, but that word doesn't imply the same obsessiveness that fanatical does.

I had no ill-intention of the word. But perhaps a better word could be used in it's place. So I apologize for the confusion.

[Garfurion]

I had no ill-intention of the word. But perhaps a better word could be used in it's place. So I apologize for the confusion.

No apology necessary. It can be hard to judge the intent behind written words. I just wanted to raise awareness given the discussion a few pages back regarding respect.

[Alixie]

yes i know that, they are humans in the same way of highmountain taurens are taurens, yet, not the regular taurens, is that rly, rly hard to grasp?

You keep misusing the term race to describe Kul Tirans. They are the same species as every other human.

note the variant, not the regular human part

Note he said that they are not intended to be a different species. Being fat or skinny does not make a human a different species.

just because they did not intend to be a different race of human don't mean they didn't become later on, lets wait until blizzard do confirm they are indeed the same exactly thing, like they did with elves shall we??

Lets take what the Senior Producer, Senior Art Director, and Alex Afrasiabi have said about Kul Tirans as Word of God, shall we? "Kul Tirans are Humans."

humans are degenerated vrykuls, not just descendants.

Wut? There's no case of a Vrykul turning into a Human. Otherwise there'd be no living Vrykul over the 15,000 years since Humans came into existence. Humans originated from the Vrykul in Northrend, who some were producing weak deformed offspring. A few survived the culling by King Ymiron because their parents hid them in the Eastern Kingdoms. There they thrived and spread, and after several thousands years, formed the first Human Kingdom of Strom. Humans from Guilneas traveled to Kul Tiras creating a new settlement, and starting a war with the native Drust (Vrykul). The Humans won, and almost all Drust were killed off. A small group of Drust, the Thornspeakers, sided with the Humans in the war, and lived with them after, teaching them druidism. All of the Drust have died out except for High Thornspeaker Ulfar, who tells the player he is the last of his kind.

Until you come up with proof that there's half human half Vrykul hybrids, or that the Kul Tirans interbred with the handful of Drust that weren't immediately killed off by the Humans, this is merely hopeful speculation. Word of God says that Kul Tirans are Humans, not half Vrykul or mutated humans.

they are isolated in one island, many groups there never traveled to other places and never had sexual intercourse with other humans, and some fo then lived different, this enough to grant a variation withing the race

Kul'tirans humans are not just fat, they are taller, larger, physical different and with different racials, this is not just gameplay thing, and normal humans cannot become like that.

Except when you travel around the island, you'll find tons of Kul Tirans who are fat, skinny, and "Stormwind sized". The Proudmoores, Brother Pike, Stormsong, Lucille Waycrest (shouldn't she look like a Drust!?), and Flynn Fairwind all have "Stormwind Human" models. Tailia Fordragon also uses the Stormwind model, but she is from Lordaeron. All of these native Kul Tirans (and the ones from Lordaeron), and they look like Stormwind Humans. I wonder why. Could it be that superficial differences like weight and skin color are interchangeable because they are the same race???

Edit: Redacted a comment on race.

[Benomatic]

the point is he is wrong, they are the same race

you can say about different groups and talk about if blizzard can add the same race again just because they are another group, this is not my concern not even my point, but saying they are not the race is simple wrong.


you are again using the false equivalence

you are trying to compare blood elves and high elves to maghar orcs and green orcs, or other allied race like taurens and highmountains this is wrong,

you can compare a BE and HE dilema with Warsong orcs and Frostwolf orcs, both are the exactly same race of orc but from different groups, exactly like the elves

the rest is not my problem and i don't want dig in the rabbit hole.


they are not distinctive enough, all other allied races have biological and magic altered distinctions, not just changing their names and putting feathers on their hair.

you will have to wait until a magic event make then different(like what happened with void elves), wait some thousand of years of speciation or more, taking account how elves reproduce slow or just give up and wait for half elves, who in my opinion is ten times better for the baggage it can bring from dnd and they would be the same legolas vibe you guys so desperately want.

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it actually means everything, because all allied races are not the same biological race they came from, they have distinguishable differences in their appearance both by magic ways or biology, making then different.

i already answer about this false equivalence in the post above

Yet the blood elves addiction and use of fel magic already altered them, altered them enough to differ greatly to high elves. And to my knowledge, high elves don't have warlocks, blood elves do.

[Obelisk Kai]

Yet the blood elves addiction already altered them, altered them enough to differ greatly to high elves. And to my knowledge, high elves don't have warlocks, blood elves do.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Summoner_Nolric

Also, Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves share the addiction, it is the different ways of dealing with it that led to the initial split. That has since been resolved, with both now feeding upon the same energy source in the restored Sunwell.

[Aldo Hawk]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Summoner_Nolric

Also, Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves share the addiction, it is the different ways of dealing with it that led to the initial split. That has since been resolved, with both now feeding upon the same energy source in the restored Sunwell.

Literally in the first paragraph on that same wiki page: https://imgur.com/a/SdkRxTu

[Obelisk Kai]

That was an ex post facto written to explain their model differentiation. Easily done for High Elves as well. Nightborne are still basically the same model as Night Elves.

The first Nightborne you interact with in Suramar is Thalyssra. She relates her story to you



Within this video, you can clearly see the change Thalyssra underwent as the energies of the Nightwell mutated her and all inhabitants of Suramar into Shal'Dorei. Far from being ex post facto, this was seemingly intended from the beginning.

And you are correct, what was done for the Nightborne can be done for the High Elves. An outside force of some description, for the sake of argument we will say it is void based, can be used to transform a random group of thalassian elves so that they are as different from Blood/High Elves as Nightborne are from ordinary Night Elves.

We may have to speed the process up for this random group, as it took the Nightborne many years to shift and as the game is currently live we can't wait that long, so the transformation should be pretty much instantaneous. And just like the Nightborne have different shaped ears, darker skin tones, bright white hair and funky arcane tattoos, the High Elves we differentiate should be clearly different from existing Blood/High Elves.

I think blue, purple skin tones and void tentacles in the hair would work. I think your idea of doing for High Elves what was done for Nightborne is a very good one and this is my suggestion as to how that could be done. What do you think?

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Literally in the first paragraph on that same wiki page: https://imgur.com/a/SdkRxTu

Wowpedia is open to edit to anyone with an account, and someone who strongly feels High Elves shouldn't be Warlocks could have added that section. A quick look at the revision history shows there was a dispute over this, with the section previously being labelled as trivia before someone updated it to speculation. Because that is all that is, speculation that this NPC is inconsistent with the lore.

But he exists and that he exists in game is all the confirmation that is required, and pointing out his existence was for the benefit of Benomatic, who expressed an opinion that he didn't think High Elves had Warlocks. Even the existence of one shows that they do or at least they did as of this moment in Wrath of the Lich King. Maybe Summoner Nolric has since become a Void Elf?

[bowlink]

I think giving a few pink skin options. Would solve atleast the players from modding the game to have that option. If players blantantly break your ToS on mass for option you are not providing, knowing they can get banned for it. Then your doing something wrong with your game

[Aldo Hawk]

Wowpedia is open to edit to anyone with an account, and someone who strongly feels High Elves shouldn't be Warlocks could have added that section. A quick look at the revision history shows there was a dispute over this, with the section previously being labelled as trivia before someone updated it to speculation. Because that is all that is, speculation that this NPC is inconsistent with the lore.

But he exists and that he exists in game is all the confirmation that is required, and pointing out his existence was for the benefit of Benomatic, who expressed an opinion that he didn't think High Elves had Warlocks. Even the existence of one shows that they do or at least they did as of this moment in Wrath of the Lich King. Maybe Summoner Nolric has since become a Void Elf?

Why can't i play a Zandalari Warlock? I found not one, but plenty of them.

As if there were a dispute, that's not important for the informative purposes of it. It -is- the only High elf warlock we can see in-game, pointing that out is just part of it's trivia.

It's not important also that you brought it up to clarify something for @Benomatic , it's obscured information which should treated as everything but factual.

High elves are not playable, we don't know the exact classes they could potentially get except for the obvious ones.

[Benomatic]

The reason I had brought up the Fel/Warlock point is that most if not all High elves we tend to meet in game from Classic, through TBC, Wotlk etc is that they tend to be warriors, paladins, hunters, mages and priests in comparison to the Blood elves we meet who tend to be warlocks, mages, rogues, paladins and hunters which tend to give a cultural distinction in their respective societies.

[Obelisk Kai]

I'm not sure how I feel about the implied new Void Elf conversion, partly that I don't feel it's explicit enough to be taken as true (yet at least, though I'm sure that's where they're going), and partly that it kind of goes against the identity of rejecting questionable magic they've been building up for (most of) the outcast High Elves. It's also hard to settle for the sub-par option when what you truly wanted keeps being dangled in front of you.

And yeah, I get why blizzard hasn't done it, but to me it's not an insurmountable problem either. All they need is to show and build on some of the implied development of the Alliance High Elf group and how they're diverging from the rest of their people. Both the mingling with humans and rejecting magic aspects could've been used more to advance their story and show that while they keep the name they're clearly no more the High Elves of old than the Blood Elves are.

As for the damage to faction distinctiveness Alliance High Elves would supposedly cause, imo since they already are part of the Alliance in all but playable status that damage is already done if so (not to mention the Void Elves having been handed over as well). Blizzard wouldn't keep adding High Elf NPC's on the Alliance or have them take part of the spotlight in major storylines if they truly considered them now to be a distinctly horde thing. To me the Void Elves did far more damage in that respect than the Alliance High Elves ever could, since at least they have had some minor development showing them diverging from the main Horde group, unlike Umbric and his followers who are fresh out of Silvermoon. Which also yet again, along with Lor'themar nearly defecting in Mists as well as the dissenters in Silvermoon who still prefer the Alliance (as shown by the guy being MC'd to stop speaking out) or Valeera for that matter, shows that their picture as distinctly horde has been more or less muddy for as long as that's been a thing.

Still, as I said, my personal hope would be that blizzard actually starts to build on whatever differences are there already so it wouldn't take any kind of retconning to make the Alliance High Elf group playable in the future. Show them uniting under a leader (Vereesa?), show how they've rejected parts of the High Elf culture and adopted human ones as has been implied, as well as maybe a few new ones, maybe even have them gather and perform a ritual to sever themselves from the sunwell as someone suggested (if Lor'themar stopped their pilgrimages it's not an unfeasible move imo). It would surely have some unintended consequences that could be used to further separate them. I'm sure Blizzard could come up with any number of things like that to make them their own thing and thus even if made playable infringe less on the Horde identity that they do in their current state.

Void Elf conversion is a thing, implicit in game from Void Elf numbers and explicitly stated in the polygon interview.

I have no idea where the notion that the High Elf ideology should be based around rejecting questionable magic came from. The very foundation of their race was the opposite, messing with questionable magic. Arcane is a questionable magic. It is destructive, it is addictive and it's use was like a beacon to the Burning Legion and yet the Quel'Dorei did it anyway. The only thing it had going for it was that unlike Fel and Shadow, it isn't in thrall to darker powers.

The point of divergence wasn't over the use of questionable magic, it was over draining that magic from other living things. The Alliance High Elves still had to feed their addiction after the split, they just used more difficult methods. The Warcraft encyclopedia said some went cold turkey, others used magical artifacts to sate their addiction.

While I sympathise that you feel Void Elves are a sub-par answer to what you want, the unfortunate fact is that there is no way a High Elf can be differentiated from a Blood Elf and the core reason why is that as Blood Elves are High Elves, and as Blood Elves are still acting like High Elves did from the pre-war period, an Alliance High Elf can only be differentiated by moving them away from what a true High Elf is. And as you move the Alliance High Elf away from the High Elf fantasy as embodied by the Blood Elves, then they become less and less what you want and therefore unlikely to be accepted. It was precisely this dynamic that led to the creation of Void Elves in the first place.

Regarding your points on faction distinctiveness, they do not currently undermine faction distinctiveness precisely because they are not a playable group. Being a player race accords a group a certain status among the playerbase. The Alliance High Elves' status as NPCs reflects their low population and fringe status within the Alliance.
Void Elves do not damage faction distinctiveness too much because, as everyone here surely agrees , Void Elves are not truly High Elves. They are a different flavour, a different spin, with their own culture, their own theme and their own aesthetic, but they do not conform to the trope as embodied by the Blood Elves.

I have never really given credence to the argument that Void Elves, who are truly their own thing, do more damage to the faction wall than a duplicate (which is what Alliance High Elves would be) would do. Distinctiveness is about being different, about what makes you unique. Void Elves are distinctive from Blood/High Elves. Alliance High Elves are not distinctive from Blood Elves. That Void Elves are more damaging, despite being different, than a duplicate would be...that has never made sense as an argument in my opinion.

Blizzard is unlikely to build on the perceived differences between Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves. Were they minded to, Alliance High Elves would have been added as an Allied race and Void Elves never even created. Void Elves were created with the express purpose of giving the Alliance a thalssian elf option that didn't damage the faction wall that could be it's own thing. We can already see the results of this in BFA as Void Elf NPCs are being used with increasing regularity and the number of Alliance High Elves added across all BFA can be counted one hand (four fingers, one thumb, one fist). Blizzard seems to have a long term plan for the Void Elves, and for them to fulfil that role they have to usurp a role formerly held by Alliance High Elves, that of foil to the Blood Elves.

They pretty much had one opportunity to add Alliance High Elves. Adding Void Elves has almost certainly foreclosed it. And they must have known it would even as they introduced Void Elves.

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Why can't i play a Zandalari Warlock? I found not one, but plenty of them.

As if there were a dispute, that's not important for the informative purposes of it. It -is- the only High elf warlock we can see in-game, pointing that out is just part of it's trivia.

It's not important also that you brought it up to clarify something for @Benomatic , it's obscured information which should treated as everything but factual.

High elves are not playable, we don't know the exact classes they could potentially get except for the obvious ones.

That was not the question, although as Zandalari are playable that is a good one you may wish to bring up with the developers.

The question was whether there are Alliance High Elf Warlocks, and Summoner Nolric by existing shows that the answer is yes.

That it is the only Alliance High Elf Warlock is irrelevant. An Alliance High Elf Warlock exists in game. By existing in game, an Alliance High Elf Warlock is an automatic fact.

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That addiction and how they deal with it does add character to the race though. A race without any historical issues can become boring very quickly.

Yet how they deal with the addiction is settled, the Sunwell was restored.

Doesn't the new Sunwell "cure" the Blood Elves of their addiction over time (light somehow being less addictive) ?

No, it does not. Illidan was very clear, there is no cure for the addiction that is inherent to the Thalassian Elves. This is not to say a cure will not be discovered in future, it may be, but for now we don't know of any cure. The Sunwell does not cure the addiction, it sates it. This is why Blood Elves are beginning to manifest golden eyes. Alliance High Elves are also feeding on the same sunwell, meaning any changes happening to Blood Elves as a result of the restoration are also happening to them due to their identical biology. This is why Alliance High Elves cannot be physically differentiated from Blood Elves, they are subject to the same processes.

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We can treat it as a factor for two reasons: one, it could happen, and two, there is no real reason for it not to happen. You are the one going all gung-ho as if trying to claim that just because a hypothesis has not been confirmed to be true than it means it won't ever happen.

I did not say it would never happen. I said we have no evidence it has happened. It is a hypothesis only in that it is a plausible idea. Before we had confirmation Void Elves could convert other Elves, there was in game evidence that they could due to the Elves they were associating with being excited at studying the void and the apparent mismatch between the initial group who were transformed and Void Elf numbers. Moorgard turned the hypothesis into a fact, but before he did that, there was more substance to that hypothesis than there is to your own. The idea is plausible. The idea is possible. But the idea is unconfirmed.

Which... also applies to void elves. Also, differences in body are not something that is reflected in the game. After all, this is what high/blood elves looked like before the Burning Crusade expansion:

That was the original NPC model shared by all thalassian elves. You will also note that on the two occasions since then that the model was upgraded, High Elves were updated at the same time as Blood Elves due to them being the same race.

And I do not agree that the Void Elves are connected to the Sunwell. Logic implies that they are not. They are void based beings, the Sunwell is an arcane and holy based energy source. Drawing upon the energy of the well would likely cause them considerable agony. They almost certainly sate their addiction through their connection to the void, just as other elves before them sought to use fel magic to sate the addiction.

So what's to say that consuming/being near so much fel magic did not change blood elves more than just on eye color? Maybe they're shorter than high elves... maybe they're taller. More physical differences could be added to high elves to further differentiate them if that's such a big problem to you, but the existence of void elves prove that simple palette changes are enough, so who's to say that 'palette swaps' are the minimal difference needed?

The models themselves say it. Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are depicted in game as identical in every respect save eye colour. Secondly, nothing in game indicates that any other changes took place beyond eye colour. There has been no commentary on it from anyone. Thirdly, flashbacks from Blood Elf characters to the times where they were High Elves show the only depicted difference as being eye colour with no other physical differences.

Simple palette changes are enough of a differentiation, as Mag'har prove, but that was accompanied by a lore rationale explaining those changes.

This "confirmed minuscule low population" is nonsense. First, because I'm 99% the void elves, in the beginning, were even smaller than the current population of high elves... yet they became an allied race. I have not seen a single evidence that a process of conversion has been developed yet, and I haven't seen any elf being converted yet.

Confirmation of the conversion process was provided by Moorgard in the polygon interview where he was asked where Void Elf numbers come from. Void Elves are not a valid counter-point to the Alliance High Elves having a low population as the Void Elves can always make more relatively quickly, whereas the Alliance High Elves cannot. The miniscule population of the Alliance High Elves has been cited in the 2005 Caydiem blue post, the Warcraft Encyclopedia and on two occasions by Ion Hazzikostas whilst he was discussing why Alliance High Elves are not playable.

Second, because Blizzard could easily "handwave away" that "confirmed minuscule low population" thingie.

With Void Elves, yes. Any new Void Elves are just new recruits. Alliance High Elves do not really have that option.

They're not 'duplicates', culturally or thematic, of the blood elves. Their cultures and themes changed when the splinter happened.

No, they did not. Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves diverged on a philosophical point, and that point has since been resolved. Alliance High Elves are too small in number to generate an individual culture. As the Warcraft encyclopedia stated 'Indeed, modern high elves cannot even truly be said to have a culture--only a past filled with glory and regret.' Where divergence occurs between the Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves, it is not the creation of a new culture as Traycor has been pushing in his OP, but assimilation with humanity. Which in itself is already on offer through the Human option.

Again, it's not irrelevant, no matter how much you want to believe so. It's not irrelevant because it's that group of elves the pro-high elf community wants to play as.

The pro High Elf community does not have a veto on the story. The pro High Elf community are not the arbiters over whether Void Elves are acceptable or not. The pro High Elf community are a small group of people perenially upset that their favourite race when Horde over a decade ago and have spent the past thirteen and a half years trying to get Blizzard to undo it in some fashion. Now, if you want to play as THAT group I suggest you roleplay a Void Elf who was one of that group, as that is the option available to you.

Apparently some high elves do understand that those were the actions of one man acting on his own, considering that even after that, many high elves remained with the Alliance.

Some is appropriate as an adjective, many is not given their confirmed low population.

Um... did you even play the McAree quest line? Not only we find out that Alleria has already been dealing with the void for quite some time, as Locus Walker mention Alleria being "his student", but in that same quest line Alleria takes the void essence of a Void Revenant and this little tidbit ensues:
Locus-Walker: How do you feel?
Alleria Windrunner: My head is... Swimming.
Locus-Walker: Remember... So long as your mind is your own, you command this power. It does not command you.
Alleria Windrunner: How did you do it by yourself?
Locus-Walker: Ah, well. Perhaps I will tell you one day. Until then, I will be keeping an eye on your progress.
Locus-Walker: Farewell for now.

I did but that was also two years ago.

I think it is more pertinent that after taking the essence, she didn't become a Void Elf. It was only in consuming the Naaru that she did. As your theory was partly based on consuming smaller void creatures to become a void elf, this sort of undermines that.

Please don't try to speak for the developers. You suck at it. If the developers truly wanted to give high elves to the community and 'void elves' was their idea, they should've made Umbric and his research team high elves, not blood elves.

Problem with this is that that objection is born from your original notion that Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are entirely separate, and I don't need to 'speak for the developers' when they are on record multiple times across the past decade and a half stating Blood Elves are High Elves. That your particular group is so purist that only the confirmed miniscule population of Alliance High Elves holed up in Dalaran would have somewhat sufficed is merely to validate the notion that they are the only real High Elves left. This is of course, incorrect. And despite all that, there is still a clear path for one of those Dalaran High Elves to be a Void Elf and you can play your Void Elf as such without fear of contradiction. The Void Elf can be an Alliance High Elf who never wavered, or a Blood Elf who rejected Illidan's teachings and who returned to be a High Elf in Quel'Danil lodge, or a Blood Elf who left with Umbric, or a Blood Elf who has only recently defected from the Horde. The roleplaying possibilities of a Void Elf are much greater than they would have been otherwise.

Again, please don't try to speak for the developers. You suck at it. How do you know that those races weren't planned from the get-go to become 'allied races' and so those differences were added?

I am unsure how you construed that as 'speaking for the developers' when it was a commentary on the desire of the pro High Elf community for a duplicate of a Horde race. And it is very easy to differentiate between the developers and the pro High Elf community, believe me.

So what?

You are attempting to justify Alliance High Elves as a distinct group with meaning. It is important to reaffirm the High Elf fantasy is available to play and the Silver Covenant, far from being a noble group, are merely traitors to their people. A political distinction.

Isn't it? Where's the official statement about that, please? I mean, I don't think you work as a WoW developer or even have "a friend of a friend of a friend" that does and gives you juicy inside information.

Source on that claim?

Ion Hazzikostas stating Blood Elves are High Elves, that the request for a High Elf is pretty much fulfilled with Blood Elves being available, and a recognition on his part that the sole meaningful difference between the two groups, that they are Alliance and Horde, is not enough of a difference to justify Alliance High Elves when in virtually every other respect they are identical. Political differences are not enough.

Attempting to argue political difference is enough seems to me to be recognition that is the only meaningful difference between them and one you wish to push as hard as you can, even if the developers ruled it out.

[Syegfryed]

You keep misusing the term race to describe Kul Tirans. They are the same species as every other human.

i mean, they are not, clearly as water, they are two times the size and eight of a regular human, this alone already si enough evidence and proof that they ARE NOT the same specie of human, they also have different racials, showing their different lineage.

its like o say highmountain tauren is the same specie of normal tauren, its just visible wrong

Note he said that they are not intended to be a different species. Being fat or skinny does not make you a different species. Being fat, skinny, tall, or muscular doesnt make you a different "race" in real life humans.

again, jut because they were not intended, don't mean they didn't become one, you are missing the entire point

And again, something you are clearly ignoring, the difference is not just "being fat or skinny", their difference is big

It wrong to compare with real life humans, even so, if you want a human twice the size and weight of a normal and generic human, with different bone structure and features, he goddamn is another variation of human, Something who was common in ancient times before the homo sapiens

Lets take what the Senior Producer, Senior Art Director, and Alex Afrasiabi have said about Kul Tirans as Word of God, shall we? "Kul Tirans are Humans."

its rly funny when you guys want to use "word of god" yet ignore every other "word of god" against the HE shenanigan, rly funny, but again, this still don't proof your point, yes kul'tirans are humans, yes highmountain taurens are taurens, dark iron dwarf are dwarves

yet just not the same humans/tauren/dwarf, is not hard to grasp.

Wut? There's no case of a Vrykul turning into a Human.

the humans were born from vrykuls directly a degeneration from the curse of flesh, it was not a gradative evolution

Until you come up with proof that there's half human half Vrykul hybrids, or that the Kul Tirans interbred with the handful of Drust that weren't immediately killed off by the Humans, this is merely hopeful speculation. Word of God says that Kul Tirans are Humans, not half Vrykul or mutated humans.

again, their size and structure are close to a vrykul, their face look like a vrykul and their racials reflect like a seafaring vrykul race, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

they having drust ancestry/blood don't make then inhuman, they are still human

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

yeah, drust ancestry its not for everyone, you play those ones.

- - - Updated - - -

Yet the blood elves addiction and use of fel magic already altered them, altered them enough to differ greatly to high elves. And to my knowledge, high elves don't have warlocks, blood elves do.

the use of fel magic was to empower structures, both of then just use arcane mage to cure their addiction(that both have) and no they didn't alter then, not a single thing despite the eye glow, and yes HE do have warlocks

[Ielenia]

I did not say it would never happen. I said we have no evidence it has happened. It is a hypothesis only in that it is a plausible idea.

For the sake of all that is holy, man, learn what a hypothesis is!!

That was the original NPC model shared by all thalassian elves. You will also note that on the two occasions since then that the model was upgraded, High Elves were updated at the same time as Blood Elves due to them being the same race.

Except you fail to see the reasoning for the thalassian elf model update: the blood elves became playable.

And the high elves, being closer cousins to the blood elves than they are to the night elves, 'hitched a ride' in the model update. If they were to become playable, I'm 99% sure they'll get a model update, to help differentiate them from blood elves.

The models themselves say it.

See above. I'm also quite amused how you say "the models themselves say it" immediately after being shown a picture of how "the models themselves say" that the thalassian elf body was only different to the night elf model in skin color only, back pre-TBC.

Confirmation of the conversion process was provided by Moorgard in the polygon interview where he was asked where Void Elf numbers come from. Void Elves are not a valid counter-point to the Alliance High Elves having a low population as the Void Elves can always make more relatively quickly, whereas the Alliance High Elves cannot. The miniscule population of the Alliance High Elves has been cited in the 2005 Caydiem blue post, the Warcraft Encyclopedia and on two occasions by Ion Hazzikostas whilst he was discussing why Alliance High Elves are not playable.

Things change with time. Populations grow, either through off-springs or others joining said population.

With Void Elves, yes. Any new Void Elves are just new recruits. Alliance High Elves do not really have that option.

Yes, they can. Just as much. Just as easily. Here's one possible option just off the top of my head:

"The recent inner conflicts in the Horde has left a group of blood elves unsure of the benefits of their continued allegiance to the Horde. Those elves, disgruntled with Lor'themar's insistence in remaining with the Horde, decides to leave Silvermoon and the Horde, and seek refuge with their strangled cousins, the high elves, shunning the name 'blood elves' and returning to their original name and heritage."

There you go. A decent population boost for the high elves.

The pro High Elf community does not have a veto on the story.

I never said they do. But if you want to claim void elves are a "compromise", then it's within their rights to judge if it's a worthwhile compromise or not... or if it could even be considered a 'compromise'. And considering the latest interviews regarding a possible HE customization for void elves, or even the possibility of adding actualy playable high elves to the Alliance, while the community doesn't have veto power... it seem they do have some influence.

I did but that was also two years ago.

I think it is more pertinent that after taking the essence, she didn't become a Void Elf. It was only in consuming the Naaru that she did. As your theory was partly based on consuming smaller void creatures to become a void elf, this sort of undermines that.

Alleria already demonstrated void-based powers in her very first appearance in Argus, when she saved you and Turalyon from being killed by the giant demon.

Problem with this is that that objection is born from your original notion that Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are entirely separate,

They are.

and I don't need to 'speak for the developers' when they are on record multiple times across the past decade and a half stating Blood Elves are High Elves.

Except the times they said the opposite, right?

You are attempting to justify Alliance High Elves as a distinct group with meaning. (1) It is important to reaffirm the High Elf fantasy is available to play (2) and the Silver Covenant, far from being a noble group, are merely traitors to their people. A political distinction. (3)

(1) Which they are;
(2) It's not. It's the closest thing (As in, "the 'closest thing' you'll ever have for that girl to pay attention to you is her laughing at you when you trip"), but it's not the fantasy the pro-high elf community is asking for;
(3) Which is enough, by itself.

Ion Hazzikostas stating Blood Elves are High Elves, that the request for a High Elf is pretty much fulfilled with Blood Elves being available, and a recognition on his part that the sole meaningful difference between the two groups, that they are Alliance and Horde, is not enough of a difference to justify Alliance High Elves when in virtually every other respect they are identical. Political differences are not enough.

All I'm having here you paraphrasing Ion's words and your interpretation of said paraphrasing. Where's the quote from Ion, or any other developer, stating that "political differences are not enough for a separate race, or 'allied race'?

[vertigo12]

They will not introduce it as allied race cause...https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ization-option

Sorry to tear down this mega thread apart.