Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ielenia]

I am well aware of what a hypothesis is.

I don't know, statements such as "it's only a hypothesis only in that it is a plausible idea" say otherwise.

No, the Blood Elf faction of the high elf race became playable.

Me: "The blood elves became playable."
You: "No. The blood elves became playable."

Seriously, dude.

They are not cousins to the Blood elves anymore than you are a cousin to yourself. They are the exact same race.

So are stormwind humans and kul'tiran humans.

NPCs aren't subject to the same rules as player character models. That's pretty much a given. As High Elves of any sort weren't intended to be playable, reskinning a Night Elf rig was the cheap and easy solution. Basically, before High Elves became playable as Blood Elves, whatever happened is meaningless.

I just love how you initially deny my point... and then immediately repeat my point in your own words. The reason high elves (and blood elves) didn't have their own model prior to TBC was because they weren't playable at the time. BEs became playable, got a new model, and the high elves 'hitched a ride' for being closer 'cousins' to the blood elves than the night elves. And hence: why high elves will look different from how they currently look when/if they become playable.

Many of the races of Azeroth are cited as being close to extinction. Gnomes, Tauren, Blood Elves. Yet Alliance High Elves, if seen as a separate group, have been singled out for how few they are in number and the point was made in 2005 that even the Gnomes vastly outnumber them. Elisande made the comment that they are mingling their blood with lesser races. So not only are incredibly few in number, many of those who are reproducing are not doing so with other Alliance High Elves and are instead having Half Elf children. As for others joining the population, prove it.

It's been 14 years. Things change.

As for Elisande: how do we know she simply did not take Veressa's example and assumed that was the case for all high elves? After all, Elisande was depicted as most evil nobles are: classist, arrogant, 'superior-than-thou'. And we only know of two example of high elves shagging with humans: the Windrunner sisters.

I concede that would work, but it again relies on Blood Elves willingly making that choice and, once again, we have no evidence that it has happened.

Dude. Stop with this "no evidence it has happened" nonsense when we're talking about hypothesis and possible future events. It doesn't matter that it hasn't happened because I'm not saying it has already happened!

Imagine this conversation, 80 years ago:
Man: "It'd be nice if we could one day get to the moon!"
'That guy': "We have no evidence that it has happened."

You're "that guy".

Again, that interview, while it acknowledged the possibility, was not information volunteered by Blizzard but was posed by a question from a third party. The answer of 'it's possible' is the bare minimum non-comittal response that could be given. Now are those customizations possible? Yes, but what I object to is this false notion that it is now somehow a promise or even likely.

So what? It's not outright denial, like you claim Blizzard's stance is.

And yes, the pro High Elf community has the right to offer an opinion on the result that is Void Elves, but your judgement they have failed is not an absolute command for Blizzard to go back and try again.

It doesn't mean people will stop asking just because they've been delivered something they weren't asking for.

And? Shadow priests demonstrate Void based powers all the time and most of them aren't Void Elves.

Except she's not a priest, is she? No. No, she is not. And remember: Xe'ra imprisoned Alleira for dealing with the void, under Locus Walker's tutelage.

Point 2 is an ad hominem attack, no matter how sly you think you are in phrasing it that way.

WHAT!? How in the hell is point #2 an "ad hominem attack"? You mean the example for "as close you'll get"? Dude, I wasn't even talking about you. I simply used the word "you" as the 'generic you', not you specifically.

If I were to specify someone, the example would've become much larger than it already was.

The guys says Blood Elves are High Elves, the only difference between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves is that they are on different factions, therefore political difference is not enough.

No, that's your inference. For all we know, other races fit the previous expansions' stories better.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and before I forget, something that just crossed my mind:

I concede that would work, but it again relies on Blood Elves willingly making that choice and, once again, we have no evidence that it has happened.

Yes, it has happened: void elves. Other than the original research group, the rest are blood elves that willingly made that choice.

[Garfurion]

kul'tirans are giant, same size as a tauren, did you even saw one?

In game ? yes. In real-life not

Actually Kul Tiran Females seem to be around 7'3" tall and Males around 7'9.4". Stormwind Females are around 5'8.5" and Males 6'0.8". That really means there a factor 1.27-1.28 height difference (if my calculations are correct), not a factor two difference as you claimed:

i mean, they are not, clearly as water, they are two times the size and eight of a regular human, this alone already si enough evidence and proof that they ARE NOT the same specie of human, they also have different racials, showing their different lineage.

Tauren Height depends on if they are hunched or not. Female Tauren are between 7'8.6" - 8' and Male Tauren between 7'2.4"- 8'9" so hunched Tauren are similar in height but fully upright Mulgore Tauren are significantly taller than Kul Tiran.

are you rly reading? who said they are not human? they are human, the same way highmountain taurens are taurens

You claimed they weren't the same species:

i mean, they are not, clearly as water, they are two times the size and eight of a regular human, this alone already si enough evidence and proof that they ARE NOT the same specie of human, they also have different racials, showing their different lineage.

I just showed a lore source which makes it clear they are the same species.

do you think highmountain taurens are not tauren? just a different kind of tauren/human

If you mean are Highmountain Tauren, Tauren as in are Night-Elves and Blood Elves both Elves then clearly yes.

If you mean are the Highmountain Tauren the same species as Mulgore Tauren then I think it's a bit unclear.

The Blessing of Cenarius which defines the Hightmountain Tauren and gives them their Moose Horns is inherited by their offspring (unlike the Worgen curse), but a blessing of Cenarius doesn't always have to mean your species changes.

Malfurion was also blessed by Cenarius although he got antlers, not moose horns so it could just be a different kind of blessing.

"Sprouting from his forehead and thrusting forward were two proud antlers. More than two feet in length, they were no defect of birth, but rather the gift and the mark of Cenarius. Few there were of the druids who bore the four-legged, hooved demigod’s blessing and of that few, the first and greatest was he who lay here." -- Stormrage

We know there is no significant cultural difference between Highmountain an Mulgore Tauren, as Ion Hazzikostas stated when asked about Allied Race class options:

"Obviously when you look at the Highmountain Tauren, they’re culturally very similar to the [regular] Tauren. [They have] moose horns versus bull horns. But the question of, what does it make sense for them to be, we came up with the same answers as the regular Tauren." -- Ion Hazzikostas in a Forbes interview

I haven't been able to find a lore source stating they are officially different species, or an official definition when a species diverges from another species in WoW. The scientific definitions certainly don't seem to apply in WoW. Therefore I don't think we can tell if Highmountain and Mulgore Tauren are the same species. If you know of any other lore sources that do give us a definitive answer then please share them with us

good, right here you proof that kul'tirans humans are not just regular humans but a variation of a human unlike elves who are the exactly same, congratulations you refute yourself.

How did I refute myself ?

And which elves "are the exactly same"? (Please add a link to the lore source).

[FlubberPuddy]

We know there is no significant cultural difference between Highmountain an Mulgore Tauren, as Ion Hazzikostas stated when asked about Allied Race class options:

"Obviously when you look at the Highmountain Tauren, they’re culturally very similar to the [regular] Tauren. [They have] moose horns versus bull horns. But the question of, what does it make sense for them to be, we came up with the same answers as the regular Tauren." -- Ion Hazzikostas in a Forbes interview

Man idk how you do it, but finding this info from when it was there all along. So we have admission by "Word of God" that "culturally very similar" isn't an issue for becoming an Allied Race. Also for the class bit he speaks of "what it makes sense for them to be".

And since we know High Elves are more likely to be playable on Alliance than become some new customization option for Blood Elves since it wouldn't "make sense for them to be" High Elves with blue eyes when that truly nullifies their story.

Just like Mag'har had to be added as a separate player option instead of becoming attached to Green Orcs.

[Syegfryed]

In game ? yes. In real-life not

then why you proceed to point out ingame size model as source?

not a factor two difference as you claimed:

its a big factor of difference if the average of a race is that high compared to the variation of the race

You claimed they weren't the same species:

because its way more easy to talk about when we talk about specie, breed is not something objective or biologically verifiable classification, like its said in your post,

I just showed a lore source which makes it clear they are the same species.

it don't show rly, by real life methods and evidences we would put then as different race/specie of human, or at least a sub-specie, like we did with ancient humans like H. neanderthalensis H. habilis etc.

If you mean are Highmountain Tauren, Tauren as in are Night-Elves and Blood Elves both Elves then clearly yes.

so?

If you mean are the Highmountain Tauren the same species as Mulgore Tauren then I think it's a bit unclear.

its the same thing as kul'tirans and normal humans

The Blessing of Cenarius which defines the Hightmountain Tauren and gives them their Moose Horns is inherited by their offspring (unlike the Worgen curse), but a blessing of Cenarius doesn't always have to mean your species changes.

they are different enough to be considered another specie/race or at least a subspecie/race

We know there is no significant cultural difference between Highmountain an Mulgore Tauren,

being culturally very similar don't mean they do not have significant cultural difference

I haven't been able to find a lore source stating they are officially different species, or an official definition when a species diverges from another species in WoW. The scientific definitions certainly don't seem to apply in WoW. Therefore I don't think we can tell if Highmountain and Mulgore Tauren are the same species. If you know of any other lore sources that do give us a definitive answer then please share them with us

its because we can have dna or genetic studies about then, so we can only differentiate species/races in wow by the old method of comparrison and morphology

they are clearly different morphological, and with other factors like genetic isolation show how they can already be new species/race

How did I refute myself ?

cause it show that kul'tirans are not regular humans

And which elves "are the exactly same"? (Please add a link to the lore source).

HE and BE are exactly the same, said many times by the devs and lore sources

Blood elves are, biologically and physiologically, high elves

The Warcraft Encyclopedia


unlike other allied races

for HE become another thing they would need some sort of speciation, this mean hundred of years of isolation and different conditions of "evolution"( something did not happen and will not so soon) or have some kind of magic to change then( and this already happened: void elves)

[Alixie]

]i mean, they are not, clearly as water, they are two times the size and eight of a regular human, this alone already si enough evidence and proof that they ARE NOT the same specie of human, they also have different racials, showing their different lineage.


its rly funny when you guys want to use "word of god" yet ignore every other "word of god" against the HE shenanigan, rly funny, but again, this still don't proof your point, yes kul'tirans are humans, yes highmountain taurens are taurens, dark iron dwarf are dwarves

yet just not the same humans/tauren/dwarf, is not hard to grasp.

Because fat, tall, skinny, muscular, pale and dark skinned humans are found throughout all Human Kingdoms, Kul Tirans are not a race of exclusively fat humans. Look at all those famous Kul Tirans that use the totally separate race, the "Stormwind Human" model. You cant say the same for Tauren for example. The Moose Horns are only found in Highmountain.

Ironically, you keep insisting that we can play multiple versions of the same race by giving the new group their own racial, superficial, and ancestral differences, which is the argument in favor of High Elves. "Oh hey, maybe these guys are bigger because their environment requires them to live like lumberjacks instead of the ones living pampered in a magical city."

Lets say the Kul Tirans have Drust ancestry. (Even though all humans already have Vrykul ancestry) Why cant High Elves have Human ancestry that changes their appearances too? We've got confirmed mixed blood elves, but no confirmed half Drust Humans. Or are we only allowed to pull mix blood theories out of the air about Kul Tirans, but mixed blood elves are forbidden?

the humans were born from vrykuls directly a degeneration from the curse of flesh, it was not a gradative evolution

Vrykul are already "degenerations" of Iron Vrykuls, because they are afflicted with the Curse of Flesh. They are half giants made of meat not metal. A small group of Vrykul in Northrend were producing weak, deformed offspring. Most were culled, few escaped to the EK and started Humanity. The parents of these offspring were killed by Skadi to stop this bloodline of birthing more freaks. Apparently this worked because the Vrykul continued to exist as thier own race. We hung out with them in Stormhiem.

yeah, drust ancestry its not for everyone, you play those ones.

Citation needed.

[Syegfryed]

Because fat, tall, skinny, muscular, pale and dark skinned humans are found throughout all Human Kingdoms

then show they, point out the giant humans with different morphology can be encounter in all human kingdoms

this is not just a case of obesity like gallywix and other goblins, they are not just fat or just tall, no other human have all the characteristics kul'tirans have

Kul Tirans are not a race of exclusively fat humans. Look at all those famous Kul Tirans that use the totally separate race, the "Stormwind Human" model.

like is pointed out those kul'trans are from a different breed/sub-race than regular humans, not the regular one, even if there was no drust ancestry/blood, they would totally be another kind of human, unlike elves who are exactly the same.

You cant say the same for Tauren for example. The Moose Horns are only found in Highmountain.

yes and?

Ironically, you keep insisting that we can play multiple versions of the same race by giving the new group their own racial, superficial, and ancestral differences, which is the argument in favor of High Elves. "Oh hey, maybe these guys are bigger because their environment requires them to live like lumberjacks instead of the ones living pampered in a magical city."

ironically you are just ignoring that this argument "in favor of high elves" is fanfiction, its not supported by lore, your argument is "they can do if they want" with no logic behind, where are the elves who live like lumberjacks? they don't exist, you want to create one from thin air, and even if they do, those sort of changes do not happen in two days or 2 years, it take thousand of years, just like the kul'tirans.

you can just give He different racials, they are the same race, they have the same ancestry, they live in the same like environment, doing the exactly same shenanigans, they are exactly the same, that have different allegiances.

need some thousand of years or more to those groups become 2 different things due to genetic isolation and speciation.

Lets say the Kul Tirans have Drust ancestry. (Even though all humans already have Vrykul ancestry)

there is a difference from coming from vrykul(not in a regular way but from a disease) and then again breading with vrykul

just look at the mok'nathal/half-ogre effect, orcs came from ogres, but if a orc breed with a ogre, it don't come an orc, or a ogre, but a hybrid.

Why cant High Elves have Human ancestry that changes their appearances too? We've got confirmed mixed blood elves

then they would be half-elves, tagged as another breed of elves, i see no problem with this, its the He community, marjory at least, that is adamant and only want pure HE

half-elf would be way better, who could bring way more unique things supported by their lineage, and not just fanfiction, and would still had the HE look with different things, that we can see in games like dnd

They are half giants made of meat not metal. A small group of Vrykul in Northrend were producing weak, deformed offspring. Most were culled, few escaped to the EK and started Humanity. The parents of these offspring were killed by Skadi to stop this bloodline of birthing more freaks. Apparently this worked because the Vrykul continued to exist as thier own race. We hung out with them in Stormhiem.

yeah i know vrykul lore, you don't need cite to me, and this have nothing to do with what i said, there is a big difference from gradual evolution than literally a sick child from the curse of flesh.

Citation needed.

it was already pointed out.

[Aldo Hawk]

https://it.wowhead.com/npc=23836/bos...rdia-dellovest

Looks like there may be different representations of the same race within world of warcraft having different looks and not being a variation of any kind.

Something like a change in posture would make for a nice touch for a group withing the game. Not even modifying the model itself. Orcs didn't became Orcus erectus or something like that isn't it? XD

[FlubberPuddy]

it was already pointed out.

You said the Drust ancestor KTs are the ones we play, where is the citation for that? No Blizzard employee has said that, and the Drust thing is just a theory.

Cite your source or you don't have anything to back it up besides a "possibly". Otherwise you just look like someone who says, "it is there, can't you see" and actually points at nothing.

[Syegfryed]

You said the Drust ancestor KTs are the ones we play, where is the citation for that? No Blizzard employee has said that, and the Drust thing is just a theory.

Cite your source or you don't have anything to back it up besides a "possibly". Otherwise you just look like someone who says, "it is there, can't you see" and actually points at nothing.

Lets not pretend you actually care about blizzard citations, so thi thread would not exist. I already cite the quests from Ulfar and the druids, and how the drust joined the kul'tirans society, you can ignore all you want.

Even f they don't, the point still stand of how they are not regular human, just like highmountain tauren are not regular tauren

[FlubberPuddy]

Lets not pretend you actually care about blizzard citations, so thi thread would not exist. I already cite the quests from Ulfar and the druids, and how the drust joined the kul'tirans society, you can ignore all you want.

Even f they don't, the point still stand of how they are not regular human, just like highmountain tauren are not regular tauren

Right so basically when developer commentary doesn’t support you just ignore and use your headcanon backed up by nothing but player speculation.

At least those pro for High elves acknowledge what the developers say and work with it logically instead of going , “nah it’s confirmed cuz I say so”.

Thanks for pretty much showing us you’re not using any logic. Just flames and smoke with no substance at all.

[Varx]

Why is there so much confusion about kt humans and how it applies to this debate.

Kt humans are NOT a different species of human. However, it seems that half their population in kul tiras changed physically when compared to normal humans due to their life style causing a drastic effect.

High elves on the other hand do not have a similar situation that would cause a change like that. Being apart of the sunwell would have caused something by now but it hasn't so what lore justification could there be for helves suddenly appearing different then belves.

"But we've dealth with kul tirans before and they were normal humans".

This is true but notice how not all Kul tirans, are affected by this. This could simply be explained that all the big burley kt humans have had no reason to leave the island, so seeing as how this is the first time in WOW that we've interacted with Kul Tiras it makes sense that this would be the time where we'd be introduced to them.

Unless there's some secret remote island filled with high elves who endures some fucked up life style like kul tirans then there is no lore reason for helves to have a different rig and in the end different hair and tattoos and eye color is not enough differentiation for a new AR. Especially for one who's core race already yielded a much more different AR.

[FlubberPuddy]

Why is there so much confusion about kt humans and how it applies to this debate.

Kt humans are NOT a different species of human. However, it seems that half their population in kul tiras changed physically when compared to normal humans due to their life style causing a drastic effect.

High elves on the other hand do not have a similar situation that would cause a change like that. Being apart of the sunwell would have caused something by now but it hasn't so what lore justification could there be for helves suddenly appearing different then belves.

There is no confusion.

Some people just don't want to acknowledge that Blizzard didn't make Kul'Tirans NPCs look any different from Stormwind playable Humans since WoW started until BFA where they decided to make them different "for more variety" and playable.

And that's the point "helfers" are trying to make, the models didn't get variation until it was decided by Blizzard they're going to be playable. Lore and all explanations for it came after the fact.

Like Blizzard's mantra: Gameplay first.

They don't force themselves into boxes based on the lore/story/history, they'll change whatever they want then make justification after the fact. Just like they did with Kul'Tirans.

[Varx]

There is no confusion.

Some people just don't want to acknowledge that Blizzard didn't make Kul'Tirans NPCs look any different from Stormwind playable Humans since WoW started until BFA where they decided to make them different "for more variety" and playable.

And that's the point "helfers" are trying to make, the models didn't get variation until it was decided by Blizzard they're going to be playable. Lore and all explanations for it came after the fact.

Like Blizzard's mantra: Gameplay first.

They don't force themselves into boxes based on the lore/story/history, they'll change whatever they want then make justification after the fact. Just like they did with Kul'Tirans.

Gameplay first, sure i know their philosophy. But there has to be some kind of lore explanation after. Fat kul tirans have the fact that they have been living in kul tiras all this time, a place which until recently was not accessible.

High elves on the other hand dont have the same excuse. Being away from the sunwell causes the wretch effect when lacking will power and undergoing some kind of magical change would cause them not to be helves anymore.

What lore justification could there possibly be for the sudden emergence of a type of helf that has a different rig than the others which would serve as the playable ones.

First, said reason would be light years level of reach.

Second, what kind of helf would you guys want? Fat, roided, skinny, there ain't too many options. And a different stance could just be like the orc treatment.

[FlubberPuddy]

Gameplay first, sure i know their philosophy. But there has to be some kind of lore explanation after. Fat kul tirans have the fact that they have been living in kul tiras all this time, a place which until recently was not accessible.

High elves on the other hand dont have the same excuse. Being away from the sunwell causes the wretch effect when lacking will power and undergoing some kind of magical change would cause them not to be helves anymore.

What lore justification could there possibly be for the sudden emergence of a type of helf that has a different rig than the others which would serve as the playable ones.

First, said reason would light years level of reach.

Second, what kind of helf would you guys want? Fat, roided, skinny, there ain't too many options. And a different stance could just be like the orc treatment.

You're still missing the point. It's not that "High Elves don't have the same excuse". It's that Blizzard is going to make up any excuse if they do decide they're going to be playable.

How do you think Void Elves came about? That their own rep to unlock em isn't even about them (Argussian Reach) shows that Blizzard didn't "care for lore justification". As simply stated by them, it was something "new and cool" they wanted to do.

Btw you have other things wrong like the "wretch" thing with Thalassians, they become wretched from over-feeding on magic, not being away from the Sunwell. That's the Nightborne you're getting them confused with.

[Varx]

You're still missing the point. It's not that "High Elves don't have the same excuse". It's that Blizzard is going to make up any excuse if they do decide they're going to be playable.

How do you think Void Elves came about? That their own rep to unlock em isn't even about them (Argussian Reach) shows that Blizzard didn't "care for lore justification". As simply stated by them, it was something "new and cool" they wanted to do.

Btw you have other things wrong like the "wretch" thing with Thalassians, they become wretched from over-feeding on magic, not being away from the Sunwell. That's the Nightborne you're getting them confused with.

I do get the point. What im saying is that there is practically nothing that blizzare could do.

They cant under go a magical change.

There isn't a far off warcraft 2 alliance high elf island with a crazy environment.

And on top of those what body type for a different helf rig would even be acceptable????

You come up with a good reason to justify a new rig, like how fat kt were just living away in Kul Tiras and buffing up by doing what they were doing and the anti helfer will have nothing to stand on.

[FlubberPuddy]

I do get the point.

What im saying is that there is practically nothing that blizzare could do.

I mean you can say "I get the point" but sure doesn't seem like it to me.

[Syegfryed]

Right so basically when developer commentary doesn’t support you just ignore and use your headcanon backed up by nothing but player speculation.

no, tignore something and use headcanon is a HE strategy, good thing the developer commentary don't refute nothing that i said, they are humans, no one denied that, just not the regular humans, exactly like taurens

At least those pro for High elves acknowledge what the developers say and work with it logically instead of going , “nah it’s confirmed cuz I say so”.

arran sure, they do this, of course

[Varx]

I mean you can say "I get the point" but sure doesn't seem like it to me.

Ok instead of saying i don't understand and completely ignoring everything i say how about you come up with a reason.

Isnt that the entire point of this thread? To find logical solutions to the inclusion of helves. There plenty of hair and tattoos ideas which have been pretty cool.

But if you cant come up with a solution to the real issue (lore-wise, why playable helves suddenly appear differently than belves) then you guys lost the entire purpose of this thread.

[FlubberPuddy]

But if you cant come up with a solution to the real issue (lore-wise, why playable helves suddenly appear differently than belves) then you guys lost the entire purpose of this thread.

That's been the entire purpose of this thread, there's been loads of ideas on how Blizzard could modify the model. The more rugged lifestyle and beeifer models, living with human culture etc etc.

For instance check this out:



Compare that to this:



The first pic showcases less exaggerated hips (straighter posture), rounder face, slightly chunkier model. And obviously a more human cultured hairstyle. All of that can be explained by "assimilating into other cultures" as Ion stated.

This is lore-wise backed up as everyone and their mom knows that High Elves have been living with humans, people even meme about them as the "human potential elves" or what not.

And Elisande, an NPC created and voiced by Blizzard employees, even points this out in an attempt to take a jab at how the High Elves live today.

That's plenty, there's nothing refuted by Blizzard (as Syegfred up there likes to state) that an Allied Race needs to be separated by a millennia or centuries in order to change appearances.

Find me where Blizzard refutes this (as Syegfred likes to use this reasoning too) and then you'd have grounds to say "there's nothing Blizzard can do" with changing the appearance.

EDIT: Like I said before, Blizzard's got variations of lean/athletic models with the Night Elves, Blood Elves, Nightborne. As well as different variation of Beefy models with Humans/Draenei/Orcs/Tauren/Kul'Tirans, etc.

It's silly to think that there isn't another variation of lean/athletic appearance that High Elves could get (which is supported by lore) when we have 5-6 different variants on "beefy" models.

[Garfurion]

https://it.wowhead.com/npc=23836/bos...rdia-dellovest

Looks like there may be different representations of the same race within world of warcraft having different looks and not being a variation of any kind.

Something like a change in posture would make for a nice touch for a group withing the game. Not even modifying the model itself. Orcs didn't became Orcus erectus or something like that isn't it? XD

I wasn't aware of that one but as I already listed here there already were variations on human models in the game. I think Vanilla had even more because developers wanted more variety in the world instead of just the playable models.



also the Hillsbrad Citizen of Old Hillsbrad Foothills


Perhaps a nice hight comparison between Gerald Green and a Storwind human I found this image (probably too big to link here directly).


Also, for Dwarves there is ofc Yarley