Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Lumineus]

I thought Pandaren were forbidden to use as evidence because Ghostcrawler, who no longer works for Blizzard, said he wasnt a fan of neutral fractions?

Rules for thee, but not for me, peasant.

I feel they gave belfs blue eyes it would end it

Yyyyeah, that would end it all right, but not the way you guys want. Because that would cross the threshold. You shouldn't antagonize people if you're a public figure and your last name isn't something like "Smith" or "Johnson" and you don't live in an impregnable fortress surrounded by a private army with $30,000 automatic rifles.

[Obelisk Kai]

I thought Pandaren were forbidden to use as evidence because Ghostcrawler, who no longer works for Blizzard, said he wasn't a fan of neutral fractions?

What, you think you've caught me in some gigantic hypocrisy here? I am happy to explain the error here.

1.) The Pandaren quote I regularly turn to was made while Ghostcrawler still worked at Blizzard. Such a quote is still the word of a Blizzard employee, and one who at the time was observing the consequences of the decision to introduce a neutral race. As expanded on later, nothing Blizzard has done in the years since he made that comment has counteracted what Ghostcrawler said.

2.) My communication with Ghostcrawler several years later, asking how his 2011 quote reflected upon the request for Alliance High Elves, are not the words of a Blizzard employee. The question posed however was in relation to his earlier tweet, and while he no longer worked at Blizzard he had the right as the author of a Blizzard quote to provide additional clarification of it as it related to High Elves. That clarification of course could only be taken to reflect Blizzard's thinking while Ghostcrawler still worked there. Which brings me to

3.) That the faction diversity argument Ghostcrawler brought up as a reason against Alliance High Elves in the context of his original twitter post was the main factor cited by current game director Ion Hazzikostas during the last official word on Alliance High Elves, the April Q and A in 2018. While Ghostcrawler no longer speaks for Blizzard, Ion certainly does, and it is pertinent that what Ghostcrawler said years ago and clarified in 2015 seems to be the guiding philosophy on this matter for Blizzard today, as the last official word in 2018 has not been in any way rescinded since.

I hope that clears everything up.

[Alixie]

"thin human" is not the point, even so, they seem to be another breed of human as well.

So if "Thin Kul Tiran" is another "race", how do they reproduce without "Thin Kul Tiran" women?

half-drust is speculation with actual canon lore
mutated humans is obviously canon because they are not like normal humans

"So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans."

One would think Word of God would confirm something as important as Half Vrykuls were a playable race. Instead of just being fat humans.

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What, you think you've caught me in some gigantic hypocrisy here?

So you have special permission to quote people who are no longer employed by Blizzard, except us?

You cant say our source is invalid if you are using the same source too. Which are quotes from Blizzard employees. Either Ghostcrawler's (or any Blues) quote is valid because he worked for Blizzard, or is invalid because he no longer works there.

[Obelisk Kai]

Weren't you the guy who said something along the lines of "in-game NPC population are not indicative of actual lore population"? Also, my hypothesis is just as valid, because since many high elves made the transition from "high elf" to "blood elf", nothing in the game has been shown that could prevent the same transition to happen again, only in the inverse direction.

No I'm the guy who said it might. Might have been in one of the much older threads, usually to counteract the argument that Stormwind has a massive and secret population of Alliance High Elves, a notion rooted in the old Warcraft RPG. The idea was that if there was an Alliance High Elf population within Stormwind, we would actually see a far more settled and numerous population of Alliance High Elves represented within the city's NPC mix (the High Elves now fraternising with the Void Elves don't count as I can think of only one reason why they would be fraternising with Void Elves, which Moorgard has provided us).

Hence: hypothesis.

And as stated, when I provided a previous hypothesis regarding Void Elves I had some evidence put forward to support it. Your hypothesis is closer to my recent thoughts regarding the Drust playing a role in Kul Tiran ancestry. I have no evidence for it, but the hypothesis I put forward makes a certain level of sense. But without evidence I can't prove squat.

(1) Which they are not. Which is a fact;
(2) Which is objectively false. When I go to the Alliance side of the character screen, there is no "high elf" option;
(3) I simply opted to correct you.

High Elves are playable as Blood Elves. Stating it is not a fact is a lie. I can link you to quotes from Chris Metzen and Ion Hazzikostas that directly contradict your statement here. Wishing the game were a certain way does not afford you the right to misinterpret the reality of it, just because the reality of it does not meet with your expectations. Correcting me doesn't work when you attempt to change a truth into a lie.

Which would mean that kul'tiran humans would have less differences among compared to the rest of the human population... yet that is not what we see, right? We see small and skinny to tall and burly humans in Kul'tiras. Also? "isolated for several millennia"? Dude, the Cataclysm, lore-wise, was just a few years ago, not "several millennia". The Gilneas sailors who arrived there did colonize the land, but the nation of Kul'tiras was never "isolated" (notice the quotation marks)until after the Cataclysm.

They live on an island off the coast of the Eastern Kingdom. You cannot walk there. Travel to Kul Tiras is therefore more difficult and more expensive than it would be to undertake a journey from most other Human Kingdoms to another in the pre Warcraft period as it would involve the use of ships or, for a very small proportion of the population, magic. Island populations tend to be insular, to be isolated. In this context, isolated does not mean entirely cut off, it means remote and hard to reach.
That certain traits within the population have manifested in a wildly different body type due to the environment and the two thousand years apart from the mainland is not unsurprising.
What is important here is that the difference is explainable...that I have a 'hypothesis' for it. Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves have had no real time apart, there can be no plausible hypothesis. Kul Tirans are not an equivalent point of comparison.

Oh, boy, the arrogance. You presume to tell me what my own point was?

No, I said YOUR point was not MY point after you tried to claim it was. Your point is that the completely separate Blood Elf and High Elf groups got upgraded at the same time with the same model because of their closeness (impressive mental gymnastics in that by the way, they are different groups upgraded at the same time with the same model because they are so similar). My point is that they got upgraded at the same time because they are the same race, which has the benefit of being a simple explanation and the truth.

But not all high elves are blood elves. Also: "kul'tiras humans ARE humans". And guess what? To reinforce my own point: kul'tirans did not have their own model until BfA. Remember the kul'tiran shipwrecked sailors we met in Legion? They just happened to get their own models at the exact same time they became playable. Fancy that. As for the Zandalari, they didn't get a new model until they received prominent time in the spotlight in Mists of Pandaria. Until then? They were hunched like every other troll in the game.

Kul Tirans can also look like ordinary Humans. It just so happens none of their big burly types happened to survive the assault on Durotar. Perhaps they sank due to their muscle mass when their boats foundered, or their increased size allowed the Darkspear to pick them off as bigger targets for their spears. Either way, an unfortunate outcome for them.
The Zandalari have also explicitly had their own island since they were introduced in vanilla. The Zandalari were also placed in a position above other Trolls in the lore, a special type of Troll. Vol'Jin in the eponymous novel thought about how the Zandalari were the 'High Elves' of the Trolls with their physical superiority. So we have a plausible lore based explanation for why Zandalari were granted a new model when the time came.
There is no such explanation that can be provided for Alliance High Elves. The idea for a different model for Alliance High Elves is not a reflection of their circumstances, they haven't been stranded on an island separate from their kin (unless you count their transformation from Night Elves into High Elves in the first place), nor can you even claim a hypothesis that they have some non human ancestry that could throw up an unusual physical configuration. No, the idea that Alliance High Elves can look different is not a product of their circumstances at all, it is an attempt to invent a difference that isn't there between them and Blood Elves, because Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race.

Except not all of them did. Which is the point.

Not all Orcs are part of the Horde. Not all Tauren are part of the Horde. Not all Goblins are part of the Horde. Not all Trolls are part of the Horde. Not all Blood/High Elves are part of the Horde. In spite of that... Orcs are playable. Tauren are playable. Goblins are playable. Trolls are playable. And High Elves, as Blood Elves, are playable. The existence of a small group of a Horde race that is not loyal to the Horde is irrelevant.

(1) Of course "even you" would think that, considering your posts, here. But considering we see no half-elves aside from Arathor and Veressa's kids, or even a single mention of such... not even on children's week...
(2) Now who's the one, again, that just in the beginning of his post, was talking about "hypothesizing without evidence"? Since when has Elisande demonstrated to have access to the Legion's intelligence network?

Since Elisande was being directed by the Legion. That is hypothesizing with evidence by the way.
And Blizzard has confirmed that Half breeds are very, very rare. Just because the incredibly small Alliance High Elf population is reproducing with Humans doesn't mean there are going to be very many children. That's the point. They are a nearly dead group in terms of numbers. That's why Void Elves can remain a crack elite squad and STILL outnumber Alliance High Elves.
Nobody is going to say the Tiger population is anything but endangered, it seems to be just below four thousand individuals, yet they outnumber the Siberian Tigers who have around five to six hundred individuals.

I am being "increasingly annoyed" because you keep treating hypothesis as fact. If my hypothesis had evidence demonstrating my hypothesis to be true... it wouldn't be a hypothesis. It'd be a fact. You don't debunk a hypothesis simply by saying "it hasn't happened yet". You debunk it by showing how it does not work. And, for my idea, you can't do that. Because there is nothing stopping a blood elf from getting fed up with the Horde and/or Lor'themar's leadership and deciding to re-join the high elves.

You have zero evidence for your hypothesis. That is usually the next step once you formulate a hypothesis you care about, you try to prove it. As with my proposition Void Elves can convert other Elves, I was rapidly able to point out instances in game that supported it until we got final confirmation.
Your hypothesis cannot be debunked, which I have acknowledged. What I want you to demonstrate now is that it has happened.

Then take it up to them. I see it as "the door is not closed".

On Void Elf customization. But we shall see.

Except Blizzard's "no" is quite inconsistent, isn't it? For how long did they say "no" to Classic servers? To demon hunters? To making characters of opposite faction in PvP servers?

Blizzard's no on Alliance High Elves has been incredibly consistent with their stance that Blood Elves are High Elves. And it is a fallacy to regard them changing their mind on other points as somehow indicative of the inevitability of your own success. I would argue in fact that the moment for Blizzard to review and pull a volte-face on the issue of Alliance High Elves was when Alliance High Elves were considered as an Allied race. That Blizzard in fact did the opposite, not only say no but then went out of their way to create a variant to fill the High Elf 'void' in the Alliance is quite telling.

And on top of that: their own argument about "too low population" is a load of bollocks, proven by the developers themselves, when they introduced the void elves. Why? Because the original void elves are Umbric's research group, and I doubt that this research group included so many warriors, rogues and hunters. "But they can convert elves" and I also doubt that void elves such a sudden influx of many many many elves wanting some void juice in their veins and wanting to leave the Horde in such a short time (i.e. a few months at best) to become a "viable population to be playable".

As long as Void Elves can turn other willing Elves in a short period, there will always be enough Void Elves for the purposes of the story. Fifty dead Void Elves can be replaced by fifty new Blood AND Alliance High Elves taking the plunge.

I'll repeat: Alleria is not a priest. I just find it baffling that you're confronted by hard evidence about how Alleria has been training under Locus Walker's tutelage to master the void and all you do is try to hand-wave it away.

Alleria only became a Void Elf once she consumed the heart of a Naaru. She consumed lower void beings, but this did not turn her into a void elf. She wielded void powers because of Locus Walker's teachings, but this did not make her a Void Elf. Shadow Priests of the many other races that have Priests are not intrinsically void as Alleria became when she ate the heart of a dark naaru, or when the void elves were blasted by void energy. Wielding shadow magic does not make you a void whatever, it is the process of being transformed.

Again, it's your inference. I don't think I've ever heard a developer, or read their words, saying "political allegiance alone is not enough for a race to be made playable".

They ruled out Alliance High Elves as being the same as Blood Elves.
Ion specifically mentioned that giving the Alliance that race would blur the lines too much.
The only difference that lies between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves is the Alliance High Elves allegiance to the Alliance.
If Alliance High Elves are too similar to Blood Elves, because they are the same race, then the one difference they DO have, their political allegiance, is not enough to differentiate them. Therefore, "political allegiance alone is not enough for a race to be made playable".
Political allegiance in this context refers to following the opposite faction, the diversity between those factions is on record as something Blizzard wishes to protect.
So you may complain it's my inference but if my phrasing is what irks you, just think of it as another variation on blurring the differences between the factions.

The point is that we have blood elves willingly and knowingly leaving the Horde to join the Alliance. Which is the entire basis of my hypothesis.

Which we have proof for and a plausible motivation, in that these Blood Elves are seeking out a new power they would be denied within Silvermoon due to the threat this magic poses to the Sunwell. We also have evidence in that they are hanging out around Telogrus and that Moorgard confirmed this was happening.
We have no further proof for your hypothesis beyond it's plausibility.

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So you have special permission to quote people who are no longer employed by Blizzard, except us?

You cant say our source is invalid if you are using the same source too. Which are quotes from Blizzard employees. Either Ghostcrawler's (or any Blues) quote is valid because he worked for Blizzard, or is invalid because he no longer works there.

Interesting, you simply quote the first part of my response but leave out my detailed explanation as to why there is a difference. I don't think I have ever seen a more perfect example of the Strawman fallacy in this thread, and that is saying something

My answer to your question is contained in the rest of the original post.

[Frenchvince]

Blizzard / activision are surely the same opinion as me for this.

Add the blue eyes to the BE's of the horde = no benefit to them

Add the playable HE in the alliance = big profit

It's a big business first and foremost and they know that the demand is there.
To raise the curve, it is a good solution to make big profit ...

Time is money.

[FlubberPuddy]

So you have special permission to quote people who are no longer employed by Blizzard, except us?

Hey so I wouldn't bother trying to reason with Obelisk, it's clear he makes shit up. If you read his post here, he clearly confirms what he asked Ghostcrawler isn't the words of a Blizzard employee.

2.) My communication with Ghostcrawler several years later, asking how his 2011 quote reflected upon the request for Alliance High Elves, are not the words of a Blizzard employee.

But then goes on to "explain" his way into why it's still valid after he himself clearly states it isn't what I quoted here. He's basically going, "No it isn't official, but let me tell you why it is official."

That means he's as biased into spinning his "evidence" just as much he accuses the pro side of doing. And then will latch onto the "they haven't happened yet so I'm right" when you could take that position for many things previously: people were "right" about no tmog in-game (until blizzard added it), people were "right" about no classic servers (until blizzard added it), people were "right" about no horde/alliance characters on same server (until blizzard added it), and whatever the hell else people were "right" about until blizzard adds it.

Because he's trying to take the status quo as if it's justification that this request will never happen. Which is pretty weak stance to take in terms of argument.

[Alixie]

Hey so I wouldn't bother trying to reason with Obelisk, it's clear he makes shit up. If you read his post here, he clearly confirms what he asked Ghostcrawler isn't the words of a Blizzard employee.

I didnt even read that giant wall of excuses. Discussion is pointless because we're not playing by the same rules. I initially didnt use Pandaren for this reason too.

You are aware that using blizzquotes when quoting Caden is massively misleading right? He no longer works for Blizzard, and in fact in a follow up post he says the following.

He's allowed to use retired dev quotes for his arguments, but anyone in favor of High Elves is not allowed. Remember that next time he cites Ghostcrawler or Metzen, devs who no longer work for Blizzard. And using quotes years after they've long since left Blizzard. So misleading.

[Obelisk Kai]

I didnt even read that giant wall of excuses. Discussion is pointless because we're not playing by the same rules. I initially didnt use Pandaren for this reason too.

No, we are not playing by the same rules as you are trying to force an equivalence between two different things. And it is very clear you didn't read the original response, this was why your first reply was so weak.

He's allowed to use retired dev quotes for his arguments, but anyone in favor of High Elves is not allowed. Remember that next time he cites Ghostcrawler or Metzen, devs who no longer work for Blizzard. And using quotes years after they've long since left Blizzard. So misleading.

Firstly, small technicality, Ythisens was never a developer. Secondly, green quotes would be fine to show they come from someone who is notable, just as MMO used to put Ghostcrawler's comments in green text whenever he said something they felt notable. Ythisens, as an ex Community Manager, is definitely someone notable. But blue quotes indicate a Blizzard source and so using them for anything he says now is misleading, which is what Traycor did. I also have to point out that doing this is exactly what Ythisens asked people not to do.

Secondly, anything said by Ythisens while he worked at Blizzard is still perfectly valid. Which is true for anything said by Ghostcrawler while he worked at Blizzard, which the 2013 tweet was. And it is worth mentioning that Ghostcrawler was a developer.

And anything said by Chris Metzen should be paid attention to regardless of his employment status because he is Chris Metzen, although his comments while he was employed are definitely going to be of far more value in terms of deciphering Blizzard intent.

This is all very straightforward. Attempting a forced equivalence in order to create an imagined hypocrisy on my part seems an incredibly simplistic line of attack, particularly as it is so easily refuted by using common sense.

[Garfurion]

They live on an island off the coast of the Eastern Kingdom. You cannot walk there. Travel to Kul Tiras is therefore more difficult and more expensive than it would be to undertake a journey from most other Human Kingdoms to another in the pre Warcraft period as it would involve the use of ships or, for a very small proportion of the population, magic.

Chronicle clearly states that Stormwind was much more isolated than the other Human Kingdoms:

"Throughout the Eastern Kingdoms, the disparate human nations flourished. The smallest and most isolated of these kingdoms was Stormwind. Over the years, it found prosperity through the farmsteads that dotted the surrounding fertile region. As Stormwind's population grew, small towns sprang up in nearby Elwynn Forest, the Redridge Mountains, Brightwood, and the breadbasket of the kingdom, Westfall." -- Chronicle I

"Stormwind was self-sufficient, so trade with the other kingdoms was rare, and it's spiritual tendencies were seen as quaint." -- Chronicle I

"Aegwynn and Nielas searched far and wide for a safe place where Medivh could be raised. They ultimately settled on Stormwind due to its isolated location and tenuous ties with Dalaran and the other northern nations." -- Chronicle I

Given it's remote location travel between Stormwind and the other Human nations would also have taken place by ship since travel over land would have taken too long and required crossing into non-human lands. In the case of Stormwind there also was hardly any trade with the other human kingdoms.

Therefore, if isolation is the reason Kul Tirans have 3 different body-types in their population then we should see similar differentiation for for Stormwind Humans, except that they look identical to Gilneans and part of the Kul Tiran population.

[Obelisk Kai]

Chronicle clearly states that Stormwind was much more isolated than the other Human Kingdoms:

"Throughout the Eastern Kingdoms, the disparate human nations flourished. The smallest and most isolated of these kingdoms was Stormwind. Over the years, it found prosperity through the farmsteads that dotted the surrounding fertile region. As Stormwind's population grew, small towns sprang up in nearby Elwynn Forest, the Redridge Mountains, Brightwood, and the breadbasket of the kingdom, Westfall." -- Chronicle I

"Stormwind was self-sufficient, so trade with the other kingdoms was rare, and it's spiritual tendencies were seen as quaint." -- Chronicle I

"Aegwynn and Nielas searched far and wide for a safe place where Medivh could be raised. They ultimately settled on Stormwind due to its isolated location and tenuous ties with Dalaran and the other northern nations." -- Chronicle I

Given it's remote location travel between Stormwind and the other Human nations would also have taken place by ship since travel over land would have taken too long and required crossing into non-human lands. In the case of Stormwind there also was hardly any trade with the other human kingdoms.

Therefore, if isolation is the reason Kul Tirans have 3 different body-types in their population then we should see similar differentiation for for Stormwind Humans, except that they look identical to Gilneans and part of the Kul Tiran population.

Stormwind was the most isolated. This does not automatically mean that all other Kingdoms were equally accessible. Kul Tiras is on a sub-continent quite a distance from the mainland. No matter how you look at it, Kul Tiras is an isolated landmass and travel between it and the rest of the Human Kingdoms definitely more difficult.

Secondly, the climate of the southern Eastern Kingdoms is relatively benign. This is why the population flourished as chronicles stated. Kul Tiras is clearly a more hostile landscape, not only being a far more pelagic landmass, but possessing thicker woods and higher mountains. Tirisgarde sound, where the majority of the Kul Tiran population lives, is definitely not a bucolic paradise as Elwynn forest is or Tirisfal Glade was.

[Garfurion]

"We wanted some of the Kul Tirans to look a little different from our current humans since they're battle hardened and they take on gigantic sea creatures so we wanted to give them more robust shapes and more menacing facial features." -- Christopher Chang - The Art of Warcraft, Blizzcon 2017

It's important to remember that the player characters only represent a kind of stereotypical individual of a faction/race. Stormwind Human males are all quite muscular which makes sense for a stereotypical class for Humans like Paladin or Warrior but not for Mages or Priests. In the case of Gilnean Humans our playable option is restricted to a Gilnean national who got cursed when (s)he was bitten by a Worgen. With Kul Tirans we see a similar restriction in that we can only play the Large Kul Tiran citizen but that doesn't mean that they are a different species or sub-species.

[Ielenia]

No I'm the guy who said it might. Might have been in one of the much older threads, usually to counteract the argument that Stormwind has a massive and secret population of Alliance High Elves, a notion rooted in the old Warcraft RPG. The idea was that if there was an Alliance High Elf population within Stormwind, we would actually see a far more settled and numerous population of Alliance High Elves represented within the city's NPC mix (the High Elves now fraternising with the Void Elves don't count as I can think of only one reason why they would be fraternising with Void Elves, which Moorgard has provided us).

So you admit the idea that there might be more high elves around than void elves since we have a lot more high elf NPCs around than void elves, ranging from vanilla to BfA, is plausible?

And as stated, when I provided a previous hypothesis regarding Void Elves I had some evidence put forward to support it. Your hypothesis is closer to my recent thoughts regarding the Drust playing a role in Kul Tiran ancestry. I have no evidence for it, but the hypothesis I put forward makes a certain level of sense. But without evidence I can't prove squat.

But I do have evidence: the void elves show the blood elves "making the choice" and leaving Silvermoon to join the Alliance.

High Elves are playable as Blood Elves. Stating it is not a fact is a lie.

No. The closet thing to a high elf is playable. Blood elves are not high elves in the sense that they abandoned the name, abandoned their principles, and belong to the Horde, not the Alliance. That's like saying "if you want to play as a purple-skinned elf, the Alliance is there for you". But now we have nightborne for the Horde.

They live on an island off the coast of the Eastern Kingdom. You cannot walk there. Travel to Kul Tiras is therefore more difficult and more expensive than it would be to undertake a journey from most other Human Kingdoms to another in the pre Warcraft period as it would involve the use of ships or, for a very small proportion of the population, magic. Island populations tend to be insular, to be isolated. In this context, isolated does not mean entirely cut off, it means remote and hard to reach.
That certain traits within the population have manifested in a wildly different body type due to the environment and the two thousand years apart from the mainland is not unsurprising.
What is important here is that the difference is explainable...that I have a 'hypothesis' for it. Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves have had no real time apart, there can be no plausible hypothesis. Kul Tirans are not an equivalent point of comparison.

That has nothing to do with "being isolated" to the point of affecting how one group looks compared to the rest of its kin. There has been more than enough contact between the nations.

No, I said YOUR point was not MY point after you tried to claim it was. Your point is that the completely separate Blood Elf and High Elf groups got upgraded at the same time with the same model because of their closeness (impressive mental gymnastics in that by the way, they are different groups upgraded at the same time with the same model because they are so similar). My point is that they got upgraded at the same time because they are the same race, which has the benefit of being a simple explanation and the truth.

It's not "mental gymnastics". It's the truth. High elves wouldn't get the model update if they were closer to the night elves than blood elves in body shape. And Kul'tiras humans are also the exact same race as the other humans, and looked the exact same, up until they point they became playable.

Kul Tirans can also look like ordinary Humans. It just so happens none of their big burly types happened to survive the assault on Durotar. Perhaps they sank due to their muscle mass when their boats foundered, or their increased size allowed the Darkspear to pick them off as bigger targets for their spears. Either way, an unfortunate outcome for them.
The Zandalari have also explicitly had their own island since they were introduced in vanilla. The Zandalari were also placed in a position above other Trolls in the lore, a special type of Troll. Vol'Jin in the eponymous novel thought about how the Zandalari were the 'High Elves' of the Trolls with their physical superiority. So we have a plausible lore based explanation for why Zandalari were granted a new model when the time came.
There is no such explanation that can be provided for Alliance High Elves. The idea for a different model for Alliance High Elves is not a reflection of their circumstances, they haven't been stranded on an island separate from their kin (unless you count their transformation from Night Elves into High Elves in the first place), nor can you even claim a hypothesis that they have some non human ancestry that could throw up an unusual physical configuration. No, the idea that Alliance High Elves can look different is not a product of their circumstances at all, it is an attempt to invent a difference that isn't there between them and Blood Elves, because Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race.

There is none for the Kul'tiras humans, either. They're just humans. 100%. As for the high elves, to appease you, Blizzard could make one. Case in point: one perfect opportunity that was squandered? Void elves. They could've made Umbric and his group high elf researchers.

Not all Orcs are part of the Horde. Not all Tauren are part of the Horde. Not all Goblins are part of the Horde. Not all Trolls are part of the Horde. Not all Blood/High Elves are part of the Horde. In spite of that... Orcs are playable. Tauren are playable. Goblins are playable. Trolls are playable. And High Elves, as Blood Elves, are playable. The existence of a small group of a Horde race that is not loyal to the Horde is irrelevant.

I fail to see the relevance considering none of those races I put in bold in this quote are part of the Alliance and have been since the game's inception. High elves are not playable. When I go to the character creation screen, there is no "high elf" option on the blue banner side of the race selection. Hence: high elves are not playable.

Since Elisande was being directed by the Legion. That is hypothesizing with evidence by the way.

So is my hypothesis.

You have zero evidence for your hypothesis.

No, I do have evidence that supports my idea: void elves. Those are blood elves that willingly and knowingly left Silvermoon and the Horde to join the Alliance.

Blizzard's no on Alliance High Elves has been incredibly consistent with their stance that Blood Elves are High Elves.

And Blizzard's "no" on classic servers, on demon hunters, on opposite faction characters on PvP realms, etc... were all "incredibly consistent"... until we got Classic WoW, until we got demon hunters, until we were allowed to make characters of opposing factions on PvP realms, etc. I mean, their "no" on classic WoW has been "consistent" for over ten years.

As long as Void Elves can turn other willing Elves in a short period, there will always be enough Void Elves for the purposes of the story. Fifty dead Void Elves can be replaced by fifty new Blood AND Alliance High Elves taking the plunge.

Ok: first of all, what you jut wrote there in no way addresses what I put forth. Second: there could always be blood elves wanting to join the Alliance and their high elf cousins.

Alleria only became a Void Elf once she consumed the heart of a Naaru. She consumed lower void beings, but this did not turn her into a void elf.

Um... source on that claim, please?

She wielded void powers because of Locus Walker's teachings, but this did not make her a Void Elf.

If you really want to get technical, then she isn't a "void elf" either because her skin is not permanently purple.

They ruled out Alliance High Elves as being the same as Blood Elves.
Ion specifically mentioned that giving the Alliance that race would blur the lines too much.
The only difference that lies between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves is the Alliance High Elves allegiance to the Alliance.
If Alliance High Elves are too similar to Blood Elves, because they are the same race, then the one difference they DO have, their political allegiance, is not enough to differentiate them. Therefore, "political allegiance alone is not enough for a race to be made playable".
Political allegiance in this context refers to following the opposite faction, the diversity between those factions is on record as something Blizzard wishes to protect.
So you may complain it's my inference but if my phrasing is what irks you, just think of it as another variation on blurring the differences between the factions.

And yet they blurred the lines anyways by giving the night elf model to the Horde, and the blood elf model to the Alliance, so that "excuse" goes right out the window.

Which we have proof for and a plausible motivation, in that these Blood Elves are seeking out a new power they would be denied within Silvermoon due to the threat this magic poses to the Sunwell. We also have evidence in that they are hanging out around Telogrus and that Moorgard confirmed this was happening.
We have no further proof for your hypothesis beyond it's plausibility.

So you're basically admitting to handwaving my hypothesis because it's not a "hard canon fact". Lovely. The point is: blood elves have left the Horde to join the Alliance. Which is supporting evidence for my idea.

- - - Updated - - -

Stormwind was the most isolated. This does not automatically mean that all other Kingdoms were equally accessible. Kul Tiras is on a sub-continent quite a distance from the mainland. No matter how you look at it, Kul Tiras is an isolated landmass and travel between it and the rest of the Human Kingdoms definitely more difficult.

But it goes against your point that the reason for the Kul'tiras humans being so different was the isolationism. If "isolationism" was the reason, then the Stormwind humans should have been the most different humans of the bunch.

[RangerDaz]

Hey, I want high elves in some capacity. Whether it's as a void elf skin, or an allied race. I don't mind either.

Void elf with a high elf skin would totally ruin lore immersion.

Void elf story is so much different from the silver covenant. Thry should be different races, one lead by Alleria and the other by Vereesa.

[Villentretenmerth]

I had fun with my HE in Legion. RIP her! All I did what fucking use a Bloodelf Texture on a VE and it looks pretty decent already.

[Varx]

What if in 9.0, 10.0, x.0 vareesa and all the remaining helves decide to follow alleria for w/e lore reason, turn into velves and thus "kill off" the queldorie race.

What then for helfers?

[FlubberPuddy]

What if in 9.0, 10.0, x.0 vareesa and all the remaining helves decide to follow alleria for w/e lore reason, turn into velves and thus "kill off" the queldorie race.

What then for helfers?

Then I'd accept that's the direction Blizzard takes them and life goes on. Same for if WoW shuts down and they never get added.

I mean at the end of the day, this is just a race request for a video game. No need to be melodramatic about it.

Also please realize, for a lot of people (myself included), wouldn't be here advocating for High Elves to be playable if Blizzard did exactly what you suggested in the first place when Void Elves were revealed.

[Varx]

.

Also please realize, for a lot of people (myself included), wouldn't be here advocating for High Elves to be playable if Blizzard did exactly what you suggested in the first place when Void Elves were revealed.

This is the argument that kills me. Look im a lore buff too and im all for immersion but there has to be a point where you draw a line.

If you or other helfers would be ok with velves if they were introduced in that manner then why not be happy with them now? It literally would not change your game experience and could even argue that your specific velf was a warcraft 2 elf who decided to embrace the void.

Im sure there were lordearon survivors who now reside in SW yet i doubt blizz would ever add them as an AR if there was a fanbase for them too.

Remeber the meat of your gameplay experience is your race and your class. Velves originating from helves or belves would not change that one bit.

A velf is a velf who freaking cares which "Dorie" they came from.

[FlubberPuddy]

This is the argument that kills me. Look im a lore buff too and im all for immersion but there has to be a point where you draw a line.

If you or other helfers would be ok with velves if they were introduced in that manner then why not be happy with them now? It literally would not change your game experience and could even argue that your specific velf was a warcraft 2 elf who decided to embrace the void.

Because High Elves as they are wouldn't do such a thing in the first place. Like how does it make sense that High Elves, who admonished Blood Elves for relying on corruptive magic, are suddenly okay with utilizing a different kind of corruptive magic?

But if Blizzard makes it so then they make it reality and it's all everyone has to live with.

One is a reality vs one is using imagination. And if we could all just "RP" what we wanted then there'd never be a reason to add Allied Races in the first place.

Take a green Orc, just "RP it's brown skinned and a Mag'har". Take your Night Elf Druid and "just RP that it's a human Druid".

Using the "just RP it" excuse means there's no good reasonable argument to be made, it submits that "this isn't reality, but I'm just going to imagine it is anyway" and again if you're going to do that then it makes no sense to add existing systems like AR.

The reality that we can play a Mag'har, or Dark Iron, or Kul Tiran matters and it's why Blizzard invests in systems that allow us to customize our characters.

[DeicideUH]

Velves originating from helves or belves would not change that one bit.

It changes everything, because the core phylosophy and the reasons for the void elf existance change with it. The stories that can be told, or the character backstories that can be supported change as well.

And there's no sense in high elves choosing to become void elves. Sure, you can have the oddball scholar or extremist choosing that path, but not the race as a role. So, for that transformation to happen, you'd need it to not be a choice, and that alone would change the void elves in a radical way: from edgy choice to tragic fate. No longer void scholars, but unwilling victims who never wanted anything to do with dark magic. A whole cursed people trying to cope with (or cure) their state.

It would also mean the void elves actually getting development and becoming a real race, rather than the malformed concept they are right now.

And it would be a conclusion and continuation to the high elf story, rather than leaving them hanging in narrative limbo.

As for how much helf fans would like it, I think it'll depend a lot on how much care and respect the story is done. It can't be a half-effort just to force an end to the debate.

[Varx]

Because High Elves as they are wouldn't do such a thing in the first place. Like how does it make sense that High Elves, who admonished Blood Elves for relying on corruptive magic, are suddenly okay with utilizing a different kind of corruptive magic?

But if Blizzard makes it so then they make it reality and it's all everyone has to live with.

One is a reality vs one is using imagination. And if we could all just "RP" what we wanted then there'd never be a reason to add Allied Races in the first place.

Take a green Orc, just "RP it's brown skinned and a Mag'har". Take your Night Elf Druid and "just RP that it's a human Druid".

Using the "just RP it" excuse means there's no good reasonable argument to be made, it submits that "this isn't reality, but I'm just going to imagine it is anyway" and again if you're going to do that then it makes no sense to add existing systems like AR.

The reality that we can play a Mag'har, or Dark Iron, or Kul Tiran matters and it's why Blizzard invests in systems that allow us to customize our characters.

Im not saying rp by pulling shit out of your ass. You can't RP a human druid as a nelf for obvious reasons. However, you can RP your velf was a warcraft 2 helf since its been proven that Velves can increase their ranks with willing subjects. There are even high elves in-training in the velf zone. So it's no where near as farfetched as making pretend your nelf is a human.

I mean thats half of what RP is right, making pretend? Especially if it makes sense with what you've been given. There is 0 eveidence to suggest that your specific velf was not in fact a warcraft 2 elf just because the majority are exiled belves.

I know helves rejected corrosive magics but they don't think like a hive mind. You're own velf toon could have just found a calling through the void, the same exact way alleria did.