Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[SaneOstrich]

Magical city created and occupied by High Elves and humans has nothing to do with elves.

Could have sworn Dalaran was a human only thing, I stand corrected.

[LuminaL]

I dont understand how some people argue on high elves and blood elves culture are the same thing. while their culture is as same as night elves and night born.

just like night elves and nightborn they were part of a bigger culture but they were separated. and having kultiran human and DI dwarf shows us that having different culture will end up with different racials.

just look at how different Aleria looks( tattoos and armors ) compared to a blood elf.

so high elves have different culture + different racials + different racial armor + difference in their character creating options (+plust point: different ideology).

void elves have these too, maybe even minus different culture and they became an allied race. so why cant high elves ?

[Chain Chungus]

Blood Elves have also been permanently mutated by the fel. This would change them on the genetic level, essentially making them a new species.

If Mag'har can be an AR, then so can High Elves.

[SaneOstrich]

I dont understand how some people argue on high elves and blood elves culture are the same thing. while their culture is as same as night elves and night born.

just like night elves and nightborn they were part of a bigger culture but they were separated. and having kultiran human and DI dwarf shows us that having different culture will end up with different racials.

just look at how different Aleria looks( tattoos and armors ) compared to a blood elf.

so high elves have different culture + different racials + different racial armor + difference in their character creating options (+plust point: different ideology).

void elves have these too, maybe even minus different culture and they became an allied race. so why cant high elves ?

It has been what? 20 years since the high elves renamed themselves blood elves. Even if a culture could change significantly in such short time (in a race that lives a stupendous long time). How would it have changed differently if they hadn't renamed themselves?

[LuminaL]

It has been what? 20 years since the high elves renamed themselves blood elves. Even if a culture could change significantly in such short time (in a race that lives a stupendous long time). How would it have changed differently if they hadn't renamed themselves?

you missed my point. my point is they are both sub culture of a whole bigger culture. its like if school=culture then emo kids and nerd kids and athletic kids are part of school culture.

same as kultiran and Gilneas, they share the same main culture but differ in smaller sub cultures. its the same thing with nightelf/nightborn and high elf/blood elf.

[Obelisk Kai]

The problem here is that I don't need to present more evidence than HE being alliance and the reasons on why they do for a plausible allied race. Which I and many others already did.

We know from Blizzard that there is one major criteria to be a candidate for an Allied race that Alliance High Elves do not fulfil. That criteria is not already being playable.

They have told us this indirectly by creating the Void Elf substitute in the place of Alliance High Elves, and directly with the statement 'the Horde is waiting for you' if you want to play a traditional style high elf.

Saying you don't need to present more evidence is false. It presumes you have presented evidence at all, when you have merely put forth opinion and it presumes you have swayed your target audience, Blizzard themselves, who appear wholly unconvinced of the merits of your case.

Your opinions are not evidence. Stating things such as 'Alliance High Elves exist' as if that is enough to justify their inclusion only convinces you because, as a fan, you have the luxury of disregarding all other facts that the people responsible have to consider when they judged your request.

And yes, you are indulging into a constant stream of auto determination due to seeing others agreeing with you and twisting things to fit your view. It's a literal echo chamber. Maybe you shouldn't get too attached to the meaning of 'chamber' since, if you didn't noticed, it's a rhetoric name for a concept that touches on the idea of people self asserting themselves through other like minded individuals. AKA the exact same thing you and many others have been doing.

No what is happening is that you are attempting to twist the meaning of the term echo chamber so that a public forum where your opinions are debated becomes an echo chamber, whereas a semi niche discord dedicated to the promotion of that opinion is somehow an open space of free thought.

That is a position completely opposed to reality. An open forum by definition is not an echo chamber, the whole point of the term is that in that space all you hear are your own thoughts reflected back at you. The mere fact you and those who agree with you are continually responding shows this is not an echo chamber.

What i'm not surprised is that it's hard to find honest and reasonable people to debate with. Since we got kind of a culture in the wow community about talking down, trolling and dismissing people who request for high elves.

So a victimization complex. As I suspected, 'reasonable' anti High Elfers are those who would, after a time, become persuaded by the merits of your arguments. Once you talked to them for a bit, the scales would fall from their eyes and they would drop their opposition. Anyone who clings to the idea that Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are playable and that faction diversity is worth protecting is only out to 'troll' pro High Elfers.

You stand on the strength of the case you present. But your case is trumped up opinion, a seemingly endless parade of pro High Elfers patiently explaining why every development does not mitigate against Alliance High Elves.

The 2005 Caydiem forum post which explained why High Elves weren't playable, rejected initially because Caydiem didn't know any better and then because it became 'too old'.

The Warcraft Encyclopedia entries which declared the number of Alliance High Elves as vanishingly low, rejected on the grounds that 'population shouldn't matter when determining new races' with constant references to other apparently low population races which are playable (disregarding that those other low population races are the point, if they are so low on population and are playable, imagine how few Alliance High Elves there actually are.)

The Ghostcrawler 2013 tweet on neutrality, rejected on the grounds that it was 'one person's opinion'. That's a common one, if a developer says something you don't like, it's 'opinion'. Because when they go into the office they certainly don't use those 'opinions' when designing the game, because if they did we might have to take what they say as having meaning and that wouldn't help the pro High Elf case.

The introduction of the Void Elves themselves, the idea they are a compromise rejected because 'Blizzard didn't say they were' or that we are expected to believe that Blizzard gave the Alliance a thalassian elf variant without even considering Alliance High Elves.

Ion Hazzikostas's two times where he said no, rejected because he was apparently an idiot and he would be fired anyway.

Time and again, even when you get the most direct 'no' ever reported on the topic, your community rejects each development and argues it doesn't matter, finding convenient ways to justify to yourselves how there is still hope. And what does hope consist of?

Variations of 'Anything is possible in future'. Of course anything in this game is possible in the future, they could make Sylvanas God-Empress of the Moon people, that's definitely possible but I am also going to say that based on over two decades of game development I would wager that outcome is extraordinarily unlikely.

So if you find yourself 'talked down to' or 'dismissed' it's because the case presented by pro High Elfers doesn't stand up and rather than engage with the evidence (which is almost entirely against) your community is well known for serial denial of the facts.

Is not a problem of lacking an amount of people, since only today 3 new users have entered the server and 19 in total have came since the start of this month. It's a problem of having a sane discussion without going in circles with already debunked statements and having people who finds fun in jumping into the trolling train.

If you want to stop the discussion going in circles due to already debunked statements being reposted, please stop reposting them then.

[Wilfire]

Completely baffling that a year later people are still frothing at the mouth for playable High Elves. Just accept it, it's never going to happen.

[Neverafter]

Completely baffling that a year later people are still frothing at the mouth for playable High Elves. Just accept it, it's never going to happen.

But they might

[Obelisk Kai]

You're being inconsistent again. You say there's two sources for Word of God, the developer commentary, and the game itself.

Then you go on to rationalize what's presented in the game itself. So you are going against a Word of God source as even presented by yourself: the game itself.

I don't believe I am being inconsistent, that seems to be your new buzzword. Clinging to it after I provide you with several paragraphs explaining the nuance of my position makes you look determined to find a flaw in my position. Maybe there is, in responding I provided an awful lot of material for you to work with but it's internally consistent to me.

This original topic of discussion isn't about being "exactly purple" it's to show that what you yourself admit in your last sentence here. Purple elves fit. You've yet to answer why White elves can't be differentiated if the game can have 3 variations of Purple elves.



That block of quote of yours doesn't answer the question which was "And my original question to you was, if each of these three groups can be classified as purple but look varied, why can the same not be done with white between two groups?"

Void Elves are also Thalassian Elves. If you are saying Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race and thus cannot be differentiated then it follows that Void Elves, who are also Thalassian Elves should be having some of their customization gone to Blood Elves. This is shown to not be true. You state something happened to them to make them different. Well something also happened with the High Elves, which is why you never see a red-skinned or reddish hue Alliance High Elf.

You also never commented on how others of the same race (ie Orcs, Dwarves, Humans, Trolls, Tauren) do not share customization options either. Just as Void Elves do not share customization with Blood Elves. Just as High Elves do not share customization with Blood Elves nor Void Elves.

You are actually just having this circular discussion now because you still cannot admit that you have argued inconsistently.

This is the third time I have answered this.

Each of those three groups have a distinct origin whereas the desire for Alliance High Elves, as I am continually being reminded, revolves around a group who have not been differentiated in a similar way and are in fact political exiles.

To differentiate Alliance High Elves in a similar way means doing something to them so that they are, at the end of the process, no longer high elves.

At which point they would instantly be rejected by the pro High Elf community by no longer being High Elves.

As for High Elves not having the more flushed skin tones, that is a limitation, not a difference. All high elf skin tones are analogous to available player skin tones save with blue eyes. If it was a difference, Alliance High Elves would have a unique palette set. They do not.

Your counter-point about Void Elves is curious given that something DID happen to them, they were blasted by Void energies.

As for other races not sharing customization options, this point is poorly explained but I presume you mean things such as Mag'har Orcs and ordinary Orcs not sharing hair styles and beards. So what? Hair styles and beard styles and jewelry are meaningless fluff. Allied races tend to be very close to their parent races, usually with only one big physical difference. If they decided to add in a little bit extra differentiation by giving them unique hairstyles, beards and jewelry, those aren't real differences. Those are garnishes.

Garnishes improve the look of a meal, but you can't build a meal out of garnishes. Just as you can't make Alliance High Elves an Allied race by pretending different hairstyles, beards or even poses would be equivalent to being blasted by void energy, or isolated for ten millenia in the radiance of the nightwell, or blessed by Cenarius, or reforged by the light itself.

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Could have sworn Dalaran was a human only thing, I stand corrected.

Dalaran was founded by the Humans who had been taught magic by the high elves. These high elves made their long term home in Dalaran and would form a community there. Human and High Elf spellcasters lived in Dalaran side by side for thousands of years. Dalaran was almost certainly the greatest concentration of High Elves outside of Quel'thalas.

When Quel'thalas fell and Kael'thas heard the news he left Dalaran. A large number of the High Elf mages resident in Quel'thalas accompanied him back. When the city was rebuilt they would return, as Blood Elves, calling themselves the Sunreavers after Aethas Sunreaver. Jaina later acknowledged that the elves comprising the Sunreavers were those who taught humanity magic.

When the Kirin Tor learned that Arthas and the Scourge were heading for Dalaran, Archmage Antonidas told Jaina to evacuate the city and take as many as she could to Kalimdor, which she did. Some of the remaining High Elves accompanied her, where in Warcraft 3 they were the Mage and Priest units accompanying her. Following the founding of Theramore, these Elves settled in the new city with her. Any who stayed behind to defend Theramore against the Horde are presumed to have died when the mana bomb hit, no theramore High Elves were found among the captured survivors during the siege of Orgrimmar.

Not all High Elves accompanied Jaina. Some remained behind with the Kirin Tor. It is unknown how many of these joined Kael when he returned from Quel'thalas to aid the Alliance. but a few High Elves declined the opportunity and remained with the Kirin Tor, as did a handful of High Elf civilians who dwell in Dalaran to this day. The high elves who stayed with the Kirin Tor are those who have been associated with the city for centuries, likely millenia.

When Rhonin was appointed archmage of the Kirin Tor, he oversaw the reconstruction of Dalaran. His wife, Veressa Windrunner, opposed the admission of the Sunreavers back into the city. She sent out a call and several of the few remaining Alliance High Elves answered and with them she formed the Silver Covenant. Primarily it consisted of former Farstriders, those Elves who had embraced an existence away from Silvermoon and it's magisters for the isolation of the wilds and war with the Trolls and who likely had an increased affinity for the Alliance because of their lifestyle, but a few representatives from other disciplines also gathered. Most of the Silver Covenant didn't have the same connection with the city the Sunreavers could claim, but for them it was a new home.

I hope that summarises the connection the High Elves have with Dalaran. In truth, it's the one place in the entire world of warcraft where Alliance High Elves seems to gather in anything approaching decent numbers. It's also why they only appear to show in such numbers when Dalaran is involved.

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What are the main characters that you play in World of Warcraft?

I am unsure of the relevance of the question? If it is because you think I only play Horde, that is not true. I have leveled several Alliance characters over the years specifically in order to see their side of the story. Originally it was my monk whom I ended up liking so much I transferred him to my Horde guild at the end of Warlords of Draenor.

In Legion I created a Night Elf Demon Hunter and used him for that purpose, I did intend to reuse him for the same purpose in BFA but ultimately decided against it and used my boost to create a Draenei shaman.

You can find his link here

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...hisper/menator

[Ielenia]

We know from Blizzard that there is one major criteria to be a candidate for an Allied race that Alliance High Elves do not fulfil. That criteria is not already being playable.

False. This criteria is something the high elves fill in spades. They are simply not playable. That is a fact. There is no 'high elf' option in the Alliance side of the race selection in the character creation screen.

Repeat this "blood elves are high elves" all you want, that doesn't change the fact that high elves (i.e. the thalassian elves who refuse to follow Lor'themar, banished from Silvermoon, and Alliance-aligned) are not playable. This nonsensical argument of "blood elves are high elves" can be said for all allied races: "Zandalari are trolls", "dark iron are dwarves", "lightforged draenei are draenei", "kul'tiran are humans", etc, etc.

They have political differences enough to draw blood and foster hate between the two factions. That is more than enough differentiation to make them viable to become an allied race, considering "different silhouettes" are apparently no longer a requirement for allied races.

If you want to stop the discussion going in circles due to already debunked statements being reposted, please stop reposting them then.

That is also true for you.

[elbleuet]

Blood elves in WoW : We are former high elves, we are the Sin'dorei
Horde players on MMO-CHAMPION : blood elves are high elves and high elves are not blood elves and will all die soon, deal with it
High elves, blood elves and Alliance players : wat

[Obelisk Kai]

False. This criteria is something the high elves fill in spades. They are simply not playable. That is a fact. There is no 'high elf' option in the Alliance side of the race selection in the character creation screen.

Repeat this "blood elves are high elves" all you want, that doesn't change the fact that high elves (i.e. the thalassian elves who refuse to follow Lor'themar, banished from Silvermoon, and Alliance-aligned) are not playable. This nonsensical argument of "blood elves are high elves" can be said for all allied races: "Zandalari are trolls", "dark iron are dwarves", "lightforged draenei are draenei", "kul'tiran are humans", etc, etc.

They have political differences enough to draw blood and foster hate between the two factions. That is more than enough differentiation to make them viable to become an allied race, considering "different silhouettes" are apparently no longer a requirement for allied races.

I will repeat Blood Elves are High Elves all I want. I use this phrase because the Game Director, someone who actually has an important role in the game, came up with it when directly asked about playable High Elves.

Your response is a classic example of everything I have just posted about.

First, reject the evidence by stating it is false. It is not false, it is not only true, it is the cited reason Alliance High Elves were rejected. High Elves are playable as a part of the Horde.

Secondly, all your other examples neglect that each is different from the core races they are based off in some fundamental way. That is why they are Allied races.

Thirdly, you then revert to 'They have political differences enough to draw blood and foster hate between the two factions' because that is all there is. Political differences.

The Grimtotem are in the same situation with the other Tauren. Are they allied race worthy?

The Defias are in the same situation with the people of Stormwind? Are they allied race worthy?

They are not. You stating it is enough is not only wrong, it's a lie, as you were told by someone with more authority than you it is wrong and to disregard what they said and to still present what you know is false as fact, that is a lie.

[Highelf]

They just need to add High Elf customization options for void elves since we see High Elves in Telegorus Rift. By now they are sanctioned in and part of the void.

Maybe if Alleria sacrifices herself or whatever, Void Elves are cleansed?

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I will repeat Blood Elves are High Elves all I want. I use this phrase because the Game Director, someone who actually has an important role in the game, came up with it when directly asked about playable High Elves.

Your response is a classic example of everything I have just posted about.

First, reject the evidence by stating it is false. It is not false, it is not only true, it is the cited reason Alliance High Elves were rejected. High Elves are playable as a part of the Horde.

Secondly, all your other examples neglect that each is different from the core races they are based off in some fundamental way. That is why they are Allied races.

Thirdly, you then revert to 'They have political differences enough to draw blood and foster hate between the two factions' because that is all there is. Political differences.

The Grimtotem are in the same situation with the other Tauren. Are they allied race worthy?

The Defias are in the same situation with the people of Stormwind? Are they allied race worthy?

They are not. You stating it is enough is not only wrong, it's a lie, as you were told by someone with more authority than you it is wrong and to disregard what they said and to still present what you know is false as fact, that is a lie.

I'm not really interested in the argument but there are allied races with no political difference and it's just a silhouette difference or even a cosmetic difference. There's also some with the exact same silhouette.

[Ielenia]

I will repeat Blood Elves are High Elves all I want. I use this phrase because the Game Director, someone who actually has an important role in the game, came up with it when directly asked about playable High Elves.

His exact words were "blood elves basically kind of are high elves". That is not the same thing as saying "blood elves are high elves". The wording is important, and I told you to keep that in mind.

First, reject the evidence by stating it is false. It is not false

Claim: "high elves are playable".
Verification of the veracity of said claim: no high elf option in the Alliance side of the character creation screen.
Conclusion: claim is false.

Secondly, all your other examples neglect that each is different from the core races they are based off in some fundamental way. That is why they are Allied races.

Zandalari trolls are not "fundamentally different" than other trolls. Males have straight backs, that's it.
Highmountain tauren are not "fundamentally different" than other tauren. They have antlers instead of horns, that's it.

Thirdly, you then revert to 'They have political differences enough to draw blood and foster hate between the two factions' because that is all there is. Political differences.

Assuming it's all there is, it's still enough considering the rift between the two.

The Grimtotem are in the same situation with the other Tauren. Are they allied race worthy?

The Defias are in the same situation with the people of Stormwind? Are they allied race worthy?

They are not.

Thanks for your opinion, however flawed it is. The grimtotem can easily be an allied race. The defias are a little trickier, because, unlike high elves and blood elves, there are literally no physical differences between them and other humans, but still could be done. But it also depends a lot on player demand, and while I recall seeing a decent amount of people wanting to play as the Grimtotem, I don't see many asking for Defias. If any, at all.

[Black Goat]

New rule: Blizzard cant use High Elves in the story anymore or create new High Elf NPCs until they are playable. They clearly want to use High Elves; they were widely used in Legion and BFA, but keep claiming that they cant be playable because they're almost extinct and indistinguishable from Blood Elves. You cant have your cake and eat it too. This extends to the Wildhammer. They are everywhere in BFA, yet are unplayable. They should be a player choice before Garbage Gnomes.

I mean, it kinda belongs to them. They can do whatever they want with their cake. If I bake a cake, I'm gonna do WTF I want to with it. Players have never been able to flat-out make demands, and hopefully, never will. There are some things you don't mess with, in this case, they don't want to upset the Horde playerbase just to appease the Alliance one. It's best to leave it the way it's been for 14 years.

There are plenty of races and species of things that are well-represented within the game, but aren't playable. By that logic you'd be able to play everything. I understand what you mean, though, because of the high demand behind the High Elves. I think in this regard, the notion that High Elves and Blood Elves are cosmetically too similar to have them on both factions, and that offering High Elves customization options would make Blood Elves feel "less cool" because High Elves get cool shit to set them apart.

I feel like that reasoning is easily embraced by most, but obviously some people struggle with it. Hence this entire thread.

[Aldo Hawk]

We know from Blizzard that there is one major criteria to be a candidate for an Allied race that Alliance High Elves do not fulfil. That criteria is not already being playable.

@ 12:30



You are just... Too obsessed...

Snip

https://www.wowhead.com/search?q=Silver+Covenant#npcs Alliance Thalassian High elves. There's no need for more, really

So a victimization complex.

How convenient isn't it?

The 2005 Caydiem forum post which explained why High Elves weren't playable, rejected initially because Caydiem didn't know any better and then because it became 'too old'.

'Population' ---------> A classroom of Void elves.

Can't wait to see how you rationalize it again.

The Ghostcrawler 2013 tweet on neutrality, rejected on the grounds that it was 'one person's opinion'.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...65802590384129

'Not a fan' (Thing that he repeats A LOT in his twitter when he wants to give HIS OPINION).

His opinion, period.

So if you find yourself 'talked down to' or 'dismissed' it's because the case presented by pro High Elfers doesn't stand up and rather than engage with the evidence (which is almost entirely against) your community is well known for serial denial of the facts.

I don't have anything to say about this line. Anyone can see what's the deal in here

If you want to stop the discussion going in circles due to already debunked statements being reposted, please stop reposting them then.

You are the one 'reposting them'.

- - - Updated - - -

Blood elves in WoW : We are former high elves, we are the Sin'dorei
Horde players on MMO-CHAMPION : blood elves are high elves and high elves are not blood elves and will all die soon, deal with it
High elves, blood elves and Alliance players : wat

Oh jeez XDDDD

I can't laugh anymore, I have spent the laugh box for today XDDD

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Highmountain tauren are not "fundamentally different" than other tauren. They have antlers instead of horns, that's it.

Fun fact.

The antlers are a blessing of Cenarius, and Huln just passed it to their descendance.

Let's hope Cenarius doesn't bless any Mulgore Tauren, that would create a great crisis of identity.

[Sinraye]

you missed my point. my point is they are both sub culture of a whole bigger culture. its like if school=culture then emo kids and nerd kids and athletic kids are part of school culture.

same as kultiran and Gilneas, they share the same main culture but differ in smaller sub cultures. its the same thing with nightelf/nightborn and high elf/blood elf.

I think you are missing the point made by @SaneOstrich. The subculture you speak of is too small. Its like making Humans of Westfall a seperate race because of their cultural difference from humans of Stormvind. It is not remotely close to that of the difference between cultures of the Night Elves and Nightborne whose culture separates 10 000 years, as well as appearance changed by a 10k years exposure to the nightwell. Gilneans and kultiran too are completely different nations with a long history, one is a seafaring nation and the other one have been turned into warewolves. Important to note here is that they are all part of the same faction, alliance. So naturally the requirement for significant race differences will not be the same (faction identify).

Also regarding allerias blue tattoos, she has a unique model, its not like all high elf npcs have blue tattoos. Neither does her sister Vareesa. The only real difference is eye color and perhaps allegiance though we dont know the allegiance of all high elves as they are not a nation.

The similarities are too great to introduce an almost exact copy of a horde race into the alliance. Not to mention that they are the most popular horde race. It would damage faction identity. Blizzard understands this and so should everyone else. If people want to roleplay high elf then they can pretend they are one that has chosen horde due to alliances betrayal in wc3 tft etc. It makes more sense for Blizzard to introduce option for blue eyes for blood elves to satisfy this demand.

[LuminaL]

I think you are missing the point made by @SaneOstrich. The subculture you speak of is too small. Its like making Humans of Westfall a seperate race because of their cultural difference from humans of Stormvind. It is not remotely close to that of the difference between cultures of the Night Elves and Nightborne whose culture separates 10 000 years, as well as appearance changed by a 10k years exposure to the nightwell. Gilneans and kultiran too are completely different nations with a long history, one is a seafaring nation and the other one have been turned into warewolves. Important to note here is that they are all part of the same faction, alliance. So naturally the requirement for significant race differences will not be the same (faction identify).

Also regarding allerias blue tattoos, she has a unique model, its not like all high elf npcs have blue tattoos. Neither does her sister Vareesa. The only real difference is eye color and perhaps allegiance though we dont know the allegiance of all high elves as they are not a nation.

The similarities are too great to introduce an almost exact copy of a horde race into the alliance. Not to mention that they are the most popular horde race. It would damage faction identity. Blizzard understands this and so should everyone else. If people want to roleplay high elf then they can pretend they are one that has chosen horde due to alliances betrayal in wc3 tft etc. It makes more sense for Blizzard to introduce option for blue eyes for blood elves to satisfy this demand.

Gilneas turned into werewolves but essentially they are human kingdom and so are kultiran, and stormwind. so even if we cross out gilneas as werewolves, which is only fair, we still have two race that are human and two race that are dwarf.

mportant to note here is that they are all part of the same faction, alliance. So naturally the requirement for significant race differences will not be the same (faction identify).

about KT being in same alliance with Stormwind, they were at some point and then they decided they dont want to, just like high elves. but it didnt stop KT from rejoining Alliance.

Also regarding allerias blue tattoos, she has a unique model, its not like all high elf npcs have blue tattoos.

and how many important void elf characters had void elf features before we had void elves ? none.

It makes more sense for Blizzard to introduce option for blue eyes for blood elves to satisfy this demand.

I actually said this many times in this forum and in other places talking about high elves. my first problem is void elves stupid lore.

somehow as someone very nicely mentioned up there somewhere, a "classroom" full of void elves suddenly become a valid option for playable race because they have the numbers and a whole faction of high elves are just left there because "they dont have the numbers"

we had orcs, who just left their planet. Im pretty sure they had thousand of casualties in the events of crossing dark portal, a good amount of orcs stayed on outland, then they started many wars with 4 other races, then years later they were still getting hunted.
After all this, a portion of orcs with Thralls leadership decided to leave other orcs ( which as they showed in WC3 they werent much more than probably 4-5 ships. ) they got to kalimdor only to lose even more numbers to the storm that hit them along the way. then they started a war with another ancient race ( more casualties ) then they went up against burning legion only to lose even more people.

Admiral proudmoore decides to attack them and kills even some more. and then WoW comes and suddenly Orcs are like the second most populated race of Azeroth.

and we had goblins, who were literaly only ONE ship if I remember correctly and they got to be a race.

high elves lost a huge portion of their population during the third war, then they even lost more after they ran away to outland, some of those ran aways decide to get back and left kael'thas and suddenly they have enough numbers to be a whole faction with a big populated city.

worgens were this one city who lost many to the worgen curse and lost even more to the forsaken plague and war against sylvanas and they suddenly are everywhere.

blizzard should have used high elves on the alliance to create void elves instead of just pick a handful of blood elves and turn them into an allied race and should have stopped using high elves atleast in BFA. but they did the exact opposite.

I dont really want to argue they could or couldnt be a race, because they could considering all this. what I want to know is why blizzard did that/is doing this!

[Obelisk Kai]

His exact words were "blood elves basically kind of are high elves". That is not the same thing as saying "blood elves are high elves". The wording is important, and I told you to keep that in mind.

For context, note that in the interview Ion says he 'accepts all the hate mail coming his way' as a result of his comments, the recent GM/CM response and the Afrasiabi's comments on the Void Elf angle which all prove one thing.

They know this is a request with a 'dedicated' fanbase.

Now, with that context established let me say I am not certain if English is your first language, but if not I would like to point there is a certain nuance to the use of the word 'basically' in certain circumstances. That nuance is when you are stating the obvious with the invitation to your questioner to reconsider their position because holding onto that position is self-evidently foolish. It is the rhetorical equivalent of pulling your punches, a softening of the blow.

So the wording is indeed important. But so is the context of the answer. And the context of the answer if you recall was his message that Alliance High Elves aren't being added because High Elves are playable as Blood Elves. From that context you would have us believe that the opening part of his statement still differentiated Blood Elves from Alliance High Elves rather than the reverse, that Blood Elves really are High Elves.

What, did he change his mind five seconds into the answer?

Claim: "high elves are playable".
Verification of the veracity of said claim: no high elf option in the Alliance side of the character creation screen.
Conclusion: claim is false.

Judged entirely by a biased fan with an agenda. Hardly a disinterested party capable of making a rationale and fair judgement. Your rationale behind why the claim is false is, itself, deeply flawed.

Hypothetically, had Blood Elves not changed their name from High Elves and were on the Horde side of the character creator as High Elves, how could you argue that High Elves were not playable? You could not. That you are attempting to do so now rests on pretending an adjective has a lot more meaning than ever intended.

It also rests on ignoring developer commentary, particularly from Chris Metzen and Ion Hazzikostas.

Finally, by basing your argument on the fact the High Elf isn't present on the Alliance side of the character creation screen, you again retreat to the one difference between the two groups that nobody can question. Which of course, has been defined as not enough.

Zandalari trolls are not "fundamentally different" than other trolls. Males have straight backs, that's it.

Zandalari Trolls are regarded as the 'Elves' of the Trolls, as noted by Vol'Jin in the eponymous novel. Specifically, they are notable for being physically larger and stronger than ordinary Trolls. Lore wise they have been regarded as a type of Troll apart from the others, with a civilization that has outlasted all other Troll Empires.

Highmountain tauren are not "fundamentally different" than other tauren. They have antlers instead of horns, that's it.

The Highmountain Tauren carry within them the blessing of Cenarius which has produced the physical differentiation of antlers instead of horns. They have also dwelt apart from the Mulgore Tauren for over ten thousand years.

Assuming it's all there is, it's still enough considering the rift between the two.

By your failure to present any true differences between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves, by your retreat to emphasising their political difference and by your insistence political difference is enough, it is patently obvious you can't justify anything else beyond some of them favouring the Alliance.

We have you stating that it is enough and we have a developer statement that it is not enough. I don't know how else to put to you that if you say one thing and the developers say another that the developers win. They win every single time.

Thanks for your opinion, however flawed it is. The grimtotem can easily be an allied race. The defias are a little trickier, because, unlike high elves and blood elves, there are literally no physical differences between them and other humans, but still could be done. But it also depends a lot on player demand, and while I recall seeing a decent amount of people wanting to play as the Grimtotem, I don't see many asking for Defias. If any, at all.

Stating something is my opinion alone is an old pro High Elfer trick. Every fact is turned into an opinion and then dismissed because it is easier to dismiss opinions than it is facts. Regardless, that is not the case. Grimtotem are not allied race material, there is nothing differentiating them from other Tauren. Defias are not Allied race material, there is nothing differentiating them from other Humans.

Politics is not enough. Even if the proposed allied race is within the same faction as it's parent, politics is not enough. It is never enough. There has to be more for the simple reason that if you want people to shell money out for a race change there has to be something meaningful to entice them to spend.

And there are no physical differences between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves. That is debunked head canon.

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I was honestly just curious! Thanks. I have all 12 classes at lvl 100 or above on Horde, few on Alliance myself.

Fair enough. The rest of the answer is as follows.

My main is a Blood Elf Frost Mage whom I created on the first day of the Burning Crusade and have played consistently ever since. On my Mage I was the server first to get Dragonwrath back in Cataclysm which is still a personal highlight of the game for me.

My favourite alt is my Orc Death Knight, whom I use to tank mythic plus dungeons.

I have a Tauren Monk at max level but as with my Draenei Shaman he doesn't get a lot of playtime as I focus on my two favorites.

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I'm not really interested in the argument but there are allied races with no political difference and it's just a silhouette difference or even a cosmetic difference. There's also some with the exact same silhouette.

Who also happen to be on the same faction as their parents and avoid the faction differentiation argument.

Void Elves and Nightborne are as thematically and aesthetically different from their parents for a reason.

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@ 12:30



You are just... Too obsessed...

Firstly, that video is meaningless in the context of this discussion. The flaw in Alliance High Elves is that their differentiating factor, being part of the Alliance, has no bearing on whether they are a different race to Blood Elves. They are not. Hence considering how 'Alliance High Elves' fit into the pattern of of Allied races, or lack thereof, is akin to wondering how Humans fit into the pattern of Allied races. They are already playable. Something that is already playable is not going to be added again. That is self-evident.

Obsession is also in the eye of the beholder. You would term those who argue for Alliance High Elves passionate after all, yet obsession would be a better description in some cases.

https://www.wowhead.com/search?q=Silver+Covenant#npcs Alliance Thalassian High elves. There's no need for more, really

How convenient isn't it?

Well you were the one who described the opposition as 'talking down, trolling and dismissing people who request for high elves.' So yes, that strikes me as clear sign of a victimisation complex.

'Population' ---------> A classroom of Void elves.

Can't wait to see how you rationalize it again.


https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...65802590384129

'Not a fan' (Thing that he repeats A LOT in his twitter when he wants to give HIS OPINION).

His opinion, period.


I don't have anything to say about this line. Anyone can see what's the deal in here

So my charge was the pro High Elf community confuses the word with evidence with simply being pissed the developers don't agree with them and then trying to argue why the developers are either wrong or don't matter.

In response you...again try and point out why the developers are wrong or don't matter.

To explain, evidence is something you use to support an opinion. In demonstration, my argument that Blood Elves are High Elves to which I offer two Ion Hazzikostas statements, one Chris Metzen statement, the common sense that Blood Elves and High Elves are identical and the in game story as evidence. By providing this evidence, my opinion is backed up.

Opinion is not by itself evidence. It is merely opinion. And without evidence it is worse than just opinion, it is ill informed opinion.

You consistently offer ill informed opinion. You do not offer evidence. Or if you do offer actual evidence, as you attempted above, you do so wildly out of context and with little relation to the topic actually at hand.

You are the one 'reposting them'.

Yes but if I stopped quoting your already debunked statements when I debunk them again it could make the structure of the response difficult to follow. That is why I suggested to you that you stop posting them altogether.

[Ielenia]

For context, note that in the interview Ion says he 'accepts all the hate mail coming his way' as a result of his comments, the recent GM/CM response and the Afrasiabi's comments on the Void Elf angle which all prove one thing.

They know this is a request with a 'dedicated' fanbase.

Now, with that context established let me say I am not certain if English is your first language, but if not I would like to point there is a certain nuance to the use of the word 'basically' in certain circumstances. That nuance is when you are stating the obvious with the invitation to your questioner to reconsider their position because holding onto that position is self-evidently foolish. It is the rhetorical equivalent of pulling your punches, a softening of the blow.

So the wording is indeed important. But so is the context of the answer. And the context of the answer if you recall was his message that Alliance High Elves aren't being added because High Elves are playable as Blood Elves. From that context you would have us believe that the opening part of his statement still differentiated Blood Elves from Alliance High Elves rather than the reverse, that Blood Elves really are High Elves.

What, did he change his mind five seconds into the answer?

Do you know what "kind of" mean? If I say "'A' kind of is 'B'", does that mean 'A' is the exact same thing as 'B'?

Judged entirely by a biased fan with an agenda.

No. That's an entirely objective judgment. No bias, no agenda.

High elves exist. They are simply not playable. Your entire shpiel about "blood elves are high elves" would have some merit if there were no high elves left alive in the world and the pro-high elf community was trying to demand back a race that was removed. But that's not the case. We have high elves alive and well around the world. In Dalaran, in Outland, in Stormwind, in Boralus, etc.

The Highmountain Tauren carry within them the blessing of Cenarius which has produced the physical differentiation of antlers instead of horns. (1) They have also dwelt apart from the Mulgore Tauren for over ten thousand years. (2)

(1) In other words: "they have antlers instead of horns, that's it."
(2) And yet they basically still have the same culture. Same "earthmother", same buildings, etc.

By your failure to present any true differences between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves

You mean "by your failure to accept the evidence provided to you".

Stating something is my opinion alone is an old pro High Elfer trick.

Those dastard "high elfers", using truth! Oldest trick in the book!

Politics is not enough.

Politics are enough, now that it's been demonstrated that different silhouettes are no longer a necessity.

And there are no physical differences between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves. That is debunked head canon.

Eye color is an actual physical difference. But other than that, there is no physical differences between void elves and blood elves that are in any way meaningful.