Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

To me it's a natural progression of the fact that the developers themselves appear to focus more on the looks of a race rather than its background. Hence Wildhammer will be lumped with Bronzebeards and given tattoo options (the appearance will 100% be given, not necessarily the background). Same for the other upcoming customizations in Shadowlands (Dark Trolls literally nonexistent to now being as infinite as new toons made), the focus is simply on appearances.

So I think more of the conversation has moved toward, "well hopefully Void Elf customization includes High Elves" also because the developers themselves have said it's possible and that more recently the purpose of the increased customizations are to increase variance within a given race option.

No longer are Trolls simply shades of blue/green/purple now they're going to have the options of black/tan/brown/white. Same for Undead, instead of simply mainly pale tints now we're getting browns/murky greens and Dwarves are getting dark skin tones. Rumors of Blood Elves receiving dark skin colors abound.

So what we see is that the purpose of increased customization is "breaking the mold" in terms of its options relative to what was a sort of pattern within the races.

You couldn't make a brown troll before, now you can. You couldn't make a Forsaken that wasn't pale, now you can. So on so forth.

Logically it leads people to think with the dev commentary and recent customizations that this may be the way they introduce the High Elves if not as a stand-alone race (because again the focus is appearance rather than racials/backgrounds).

I still prefer a stand-alone High Elf race, but I'll always take what I can get in a given moment.

[Obelisk Kai]

No, I think you're purposely being obtuse about what I said. I literally gave examples such as other races that would fulfill race requests players have had forever and how if the shoe was on the other foot (Mag'har Alliance Orcs or Alliance Undead that could be Paladins), you would see the same pushback from Horde players.

Because it's not simply the race option itself, but the faction it is relegated to as well especially in this game where the developers have made it apparent that faction pride should exist.

And in the case of a current example (Void Elves being able to look like Dark Rangers) you offer no counterpoint to the claim I made that Horde players who want to play Dark Rangers are exclaiming around all over social media that "Dark Rangers now exist finally!" because someone would have to be completely out of their mind to simply focus on the look of the race and not what faction it is in as well when regarding the player requested playable race options in a game where the devs (again) put faction pride to the forefront.

You're focusing on the in-game race perspective, I'm talking about the actual players of the game. "What these groups show is that politics is functionally irrelevant" is showing you're not speaking about player faction pride, but the in-game races and the decisions those races made politically. I am not talking about this from an in-game perspective at all, so I don't understand why you'd bring that in - it is not part of the argument I made.

In regards to the examples you gave, both Mag'har Orcs and Lightforged Undead are or would be variants of existing races rather than duplicates and thus would not be identical to existing races and would therefore follow the Void Elf/Nightborne precedent of being a variant of a race on the other faction, but not identical. Had it been confirmed to be happening there would have been pushback, but it didn't happen.

In regards to Dark Rangers, I believe most players agitating for that want it as a class, not as a race. As such I disregarded it as were a Dark Ranger class to be introduced the Alliance would get a Dark Ranger option somehow. The example was therefore too confused in my opinion to really discuss. It still is.

In regards to faction pride, high elves are as much a part of the Alliance as Ogres are of the Horde i.e. barely if at all. Associations forged in the minds of players who got through the RTS's are important, but they also reflect the state of the game story as it was written nearly two decades ago. Things have moved on. Those players who perceive the high elves as an important, contributing member of the Alliance are entitled to that perspective, but a perspective based upon nostalgia cannot trump the reality of the game world as written.

You keep using this argument but Nightborne destroy it. They are the "purple elf" of the Horde while the Alliance had always had "the purple elves" of the game. Therefore it should be no different to introduce in similar appearance the High Elves to Alliance that can be the counter to the "Fair Elves" on Horde.

I have never understood the logic of this retort. Nightborne are clearly as distinct from a Night Elf as a Void Elf is from a Blood Elf. To accept the argument that Nightborne destroy faction differentiation I would have to accept that despite their obvious differences, Nightborne are identical to Night Elves. Once I accept that, the corollary is that despite their clearly obvious differences, Void Elves are identical to Blood/High Elves. At which point, logic would dictate you have High Elves and have won.

It seems disingenuous to argue that Nightborne are identical (and thus destroy the faction wall) whilst rejecting Void Elves for being too different, despite Void Elves being as different from High Elves as Nightborne are from Night Elves.

The reality is either both are identical to their parents, in which case you have authentic high elves, or both are different in substance, in which case the faction wall is maintained.

When you're playing a Nightborne you do not have the "core part of the Alliance fantasy" as their culture and society and appearances and racials are not copy-paste from Night Elves. Similar so, a High Elf on the Alliance - should it have been as an Allied Race like Nightborne would not carry those same things as to preserve "a core part of Horde fantasy".

Leaving aside the Nightborne are genuinely physically different from Night Elves, the Nightborne also have a complex backstory of being locked in a city for ten thousand years, thereby preserving a section of the old Night Elf civilization before they embraced druidism. We therefore have a radically different culture which is supported by lore and a lore based explanation as to why they are physically different.

None of these factors apply to the exiles, who separated less than fifteen years ago from the other Blood Elves (and as Lorash Sunweaver proved, Blood Elves can live for millenia so fifteen years is essentially nothing), who are still physically dependant upon the Sunwell to sate their addiction and who are not concentrated in high numbers in a massive, majestic city but are instead scattered across the world in exceedingly low numbers.

This argument you use here fails all the time because Nightborne show how you can put another purple elf on the opposite side and still preserve a core faction fantasy that already exists on one side.

The irony with this statement is that I agree. And Blizzard did do this. They took some high elves, subjected them to an outside energy force (the nightwell/being bombarded with void energy) which provoked physical changes (both Nightborne and Void Elves have changed skin tones, Nightborne have less muscular bodies than Night Elves, Void Elves have tentacles). You cite Nightborne as a precedent and yet seem resistant to the fact that the precedent was employed to give the Alliance a high elf variant of their very own.

There's two High Elf options in the game now, just like how there's two Night Elf options in the game. Again, if you wanna talk about "prioritizing uniqueness of each faction" why is Horde allowed to get a purple elf when Alliance seem incapable of receiving a fair skinned one?

Perhaps because skin colour is not the determining factor for the Elven races? And they aren't all purple by the way, they actually like across quite a wide spectrum.

Night Elven skin tones are quite vivid and warm. This is reflective of them based on a mix of Wood Elven and Dark Elven tropes.

Nightborne skin tones are far more limited and severe, this is because Blizzard had a particular look in mind for the Nightborne and wished to keep them within that narrow band.

Void Elves are blue/purple because blue and purple are colours humans tend to associate with darkness, and their entire motif is void focused.

Nowhere have I ever said that Alliance High Elves need to be a copy paste of Horde Elves and this entire thread has focused on differentiating the culture/aesthetics/racials/society of a hypothetical Alliance High Elf Allied Race.

But you don't have to say it, that is inevitably what they will be. That is what they are. They are just political exiles from Silvermoon, as different from an elf on Sunstrider Isle as a Defias Human is different from an elf in Darkshire. It is simply a question of politics. They are culturally, politically and aesthetically identical.

The idea of them being culturally different is a non-starter really. It's such an inorganic suggestion, one forced to answer a protestation against the realisation of the goal of a playable high elf. Them being culturally identical isn't a challenge to overcome, its a simple matter of fact. They aren't going to create a new culture wholesale simply to justify their inclusion as a playable option.

The thing you always seem to be hovering around but not saying it is this: Horde is allowed to have Purple and Fair skin Elves, and Alliance cannot have a fair skin Elf. The only thing unique about the Blood Elves is that they have fair skin, and taking that away makes them less unique. But it's ok for there to be 3 different types of Purple Elves.

No, I am saying that the Alliance should not be permitted to have an identical elf to the Blood Elves. Were the Elves to have been zapped by the light and ended up glowing as white as a hot sun, that would have been a similar level of differentiation to that achieved by the Void Elves in terms of aesthetics, potential culture and racial destiny. But they weren't zapped by the light, they were zapped by the void.

That's really how you've been coming off as to me, because every time you try to bring up arguments against adding High Elves, it doesn't work when you apply it to Nightborne.

And as I have hopefully illustrated above, using the Nightborne is not a great counter-argument.

And for arguments to be considered as convincing they generally have to apply across various comparable situations. Your focus seems to always be on simply keeping Alliance High Elves out of the game, which in itself makes no sense as you've previously shown to not care for whether other known player requests get into the game or not.

How does it make no sense? If a race is already playable for an existing faction, then that should be respected. For example if Ogres were to go to the Alliance in some unexpected twist, I would accept that, argue that Ogres are now an Alliance race, and that those in the Horde who were having difficulty with that choice based on their historic attachments would have to get over it.

Similarly when Vulpera were hypothetical and available for each faction, whilst I argued for their addition as a Horde allied race, I was clear that that was not a given and that those arguing for them to be added to the Alliance should be heard as it could go that way and that was a fair position for those players to have until the moment Vulpera were declared to be a Horde race.

As long as a race is not playable within either faction, then players of both factions are quite welcome to agitate for their addition. But once a race is added to a faction, that should be accepted as being a part of that faction from that moment onwards.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think it's fair to either Void Elves or the High Elven exiles to strip away every nuance that makes Void Elves unique just so they can LARP as High Elves, though - neither from a lore perspective nor a gameplay one. I can't pretend to know what the masses are clambering for, but I prefer the playable races of WoW to retain what unique qualities they have from both an aesthetic sense and one grounded in a unique story in the narrative.

Which is my logic as well.

The possibility of the skins exists, because a wow developer said the possibility exists. But I do believe that sometime later this year when they sit down and go over Void Elf customization expansion, that they will prefer to expand the Void Elf fantasy rather than use it as a vector for an ersatz high elf.

And the precedent for that of course is the existence of Void Elves in the first place. If the need to give the high elf variant to the Alliance it's own aesthetic so as to not infringe on the integrity of the Horde faction, why would they have created Void Elves at all?

No, I think they will decide to explore the Void Elf fantasy to it's fullest when the time comes. There is a lovecraftian fantasy that some players I am sure would really like (such as those who were suggesting K'thir as an allied race) and Void Elves should be used to further that fantasy. There is a perfectly good race for a traditional high elf fantasy in the game right now.

[Ielenia]

I don't intend to debate this back and forth with you forever believe it or not. This point has been addressed and has been answered.

And your answer has been analyzed and shown to not be satisfactory due to a number of issues with it.

Are Blood Elves High Elves? Yes they are.

Are High Elves therefore playable? Yes they are.

Then that is all that matters. High Elves are an available playable option within World of Warcraft.

That's not how it works. High elves are not playable. Blood elves are. That's like saying the Zandalari trolls were playable since day 1 since they are trolls, and trolls are playable, or that wildhammer dwarves were playable since day 1 since dwarves are playable.

Your argument does not work because when applied to all the other similar situations in the game, it falls short.

As I stated previously, what your goal is to change the developers mind regarding the importance of the faction comprising unique races.

The "unique races" argument went out the window and ran over by a truck with the addition of Allied Races.

They are not "accepted" by the pro High Elf community as the High Elves of the game. It is also reaching to suggest the developers don't share that sentiment when the one of the lead developer's reiterated that Blood Elves are High Elves and that the game reflects that on every level.

If the developers wouldn't be showing high elves time and again on the Alliance if it wasn't the case.

The Alliance aligned elves are there because the story was written in such a way that tiny minority of such elves was confirmed to exist primarily in the city of Dalaran and they tend to show up when Dalaran is featured.

Dalaran was not involved back in TBC when the Amani trolls threatened Silvermoon, but the high elves were there. Dalaran also wasn't involved in the second siege on Orgrimmar, but the high elves were there.

What do the Blood Elves have after all? They have the Sunwell, which is the foundation of the entire high elf race. They have the Kingdom of Quel'thalas, they have the city of Silvermoon, they have the navy, they have access to hawkstriders and dragonhawks, they have the Magisters, they have the Blood Knights, they have the Farstriders, they have the literal government of the high elves.

To all of that, I say: so what? High elves also have their magisters, farstriders and dragonhawks. 'Having a city/kingdom' is meaningless since gnomes and worgen don't have theirs anymore. And the blood elves only govern the blood elves. High elves do not follow Silvermoon's government. That's like saying Stormwind humans govern over the Defias. Or that the Eredar govern the draenei since the Eredar control Argus. Or that the Iron Horde governed over the Frostwolves, in AU Draenor.

If you truly want this you need to argue for the removal of the faction boundary

I don't want the factions to end. I just want the Alliance-aligned high elves to be playable.

or the introduction of some kind of treason questline that will allow you to swap factions.

We do not want to play as blood elves. If we wanted to play as an "Alliance blood elf", this thread would've ended when blood elves were added to the Alliance in the form of void elves.

[DeicideUH]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

I think most people accepted that "high elf customization" is the most likelyt bargain option right now, as no allied races seem to be coming for next couple years at least.

Personally, I don't think giving void elves "high elf customization" is a good way to settle this. Part of the fanbase will be appeased, but many will feel it's not enough, as they want more high elf lore or would feel cheated since looking like a high elf negates the reason why they stated they didn't do high elves in the first place.

To me, the best solution (barring making high elves playable) is to provide three things:
- More void elf customization that still makes them void elves, but more varied than shades of blue;
- Improve void elf lore, to make them more interesting and simpathetic, as well as more varied in culture;
- Integrate void elf with high elf lore, either by creating a compelling story that turns the later into the former, or by integrating their societies akin to gilnean/worgen relationship (in which only the later are playable but their lore is now tied together and advances together).

With that, Blizzard would provide three pillars to help settle the requests: more appeal and variation to void elf appearance, more empathy towards void elves, and the continuation of high elf lore in some form.

[Aucald]

I think most people accepted that "high elf customization" is the most likelyt bargain option right now, as no allied races seem to be coming for next couple years at least.

Personally, I don't think giving void elves "high elf customization" is a good way to settle this. Part of the fanbase will be appeased, but many will feel it's not enough, as they want more high elf lore or would feel cheated since looking like a high elf negates the reason why they stated they didn't do high elves in the first place.

To me, the best solution (barring making high elves playable) is to provide three things:
- More void elf customization that still makes them void elves, but more varied than shades of blue;
- Improve void elf lore, to make them more interesting and simpathetic, as well as more varied in culture;
- Integrate void elf with high elf lore, either by creating a compelling story that turns the later into the former, or by integrating their societies akin to gilnean/worgen relationship (in which only the later are playable but their lore is now tied together and advances together).

With that, Blizzard would provide three pillars to help settle the requests: more appeal and variation to void elf appearance, more empathy towards void elves, and the continuation of high elf lore in some form.

Something did occur to me with the Shadowlands announcement - most of the High Elven people died in the Third War, and many of those dead would have found themselves in the lands we're about to explore. Those looking for a true "Allied Race" treatment for the High Elven exiles and their pre-War kin might not have far to look if the way into afterlife is laid bare, perhaps there is a way that some of those departed beings return - marked by the transition from life to death and back again but still recognizably High Elven in nature? Would be an interesting advancement to their story, and a way to delineate between the High Elven exiles currently present and the Blood and Void Elves.

Not idea if that will happen, of course, but it seems possible.

[Obelisk Kai]

Something did occur to me with the Shadowlands announcement - most of the High Elven people died in the Third War, and many of those dead would have found themselves in the lands we're about to explore. Those looking for a true "Allied Race" treatment for the High Elven exiles and their pre-War kin might not have far to look if the way into afterlife is laid bare, perhaps there is a way that some of those departed beings return - marked by the transition from life to death and back again but still recognizably High Elven in nature? Would be an interesting advancement to their story, and a way to delineate between the High Elven exiles currently present and the Blood and Void Elves.

Not idea if that will happen, of course, but it seems possible.

That would probably be a very bad idea. If individuals can return to life from the Shadowlands then why not all individuals who died?

The victims of the purge of Stratholme, or those Draenei who perished during the genocide, or the Night Elves burned in Teldrassil, why can't they all come back as well?

I get some might try and argue that only high elves would come back, but the principle is there and if breached, would lead to people asking 'why can't x come back?'. I would be extremely, exceptionally wary of anything that erases the consequences of death in the living world, as that would render death something of no consequence.

Bringing the dead back to life en masse robs events of their sense of tragedy. Can I foresee individuals coming back to life in Shadowlands? Conceivably yes, but only characters of immense importance to the lore and only with great difficulty to emphasise the momentous and almost unique nature of the occasion. If it can happen, it can't be seen to be easily replicated.

On a more specific note, why would the resurrected mass of high elves go to the Alliance? Surely the vast majority of them would return home to Silvermoon? They are the dead relatives and friends and compatriots of the Blood Elves after all.

[Doffen]

There's always stuff like: clipping through, like ears, eyebrows, hairs not showing. Female NE/BE/VE look completely HAIRLESS.

Hair showing with helm/hoodies/hats have been my number 1 desire for so long now. Come on blizz!

[Obelisk Kai]

And your answer has been analyzed and shown to not be satisfactory due to a number of issues with it.

You aren't unbiased in your analysis as you desire it to be wrong though.

That's not how it works. High elves are not playable. Blood elves are. That's like saying the Zandalari trolls were playable since day 1 since they are trolls, and trolls are playable, or that wildhammer dwarves were playable since day 1 since dwarves are playable.

You have to know what I am about to say here as I am more than sure you've said this before and I responded the same way, but Zandalari Trolls are a different kind of Troll.

They kept themselves in splendid isolation for thousands upon thousands of years in their home city and looked down upon the other, inferior troll tribes.

They are regarded as the 'high elves' of Trolls according to Vol'Jin in the eponymous novel, who noted the physical differences between the Zandalari and the other Trolls.

The Zandalari were able to craft a glorious urban civilisation quite distinct from all other Troll tribes.

So Zandalari have not been playable since day one, but they are playable now as their substantial differences were enough to ensure they were an Allied race candidate.

Wildhammer Dwarves did not become an Allied race and they aren't going to with this customisation pass planned and Wildhammer Dwarves had more going for them in terms of cultural distinctiveness than the high elves. I don't think they are a good parallel either.

The fundamental point remains, you keep attacking the wrong angle. You are trying to prove high elves are not playable so as to say they should be made playable. Again, you are never going to win that argument because you can't win that argument. You are fighting the wrong battle.

You first need to accept that Blood Elves are High Elves, and then you need to argue that the faction divide needs to go so that anyone can group with anyone. But butting your head forever against a brick wall insisting the opposite, that Blood Elves are not high elves and that they are not playable, I think that has left you stuck in a rhetorical purgatory as you are bent on proving something that simply cannot be proven.

Your argument does not work because when applied to all the other similar situations in the game, it falls short.

The similar situations all have their own nuances which, if explored, show that they aren't that similar after all. Case in point, the Zandalari.

The "unique races" argument went out the window and ran over by a truck with the addition of Allied Races.

Which is only your own esoteric interpretation, which means either the developers are right or Ielenia is right. You want the unique races argument to have been undermined by existing allied races so that you can then argue for high elves on the Alliance. The thing with Allied races though is that similar does not mean identical. Void Elves and Nightborne are similar to Blood Elves and Night Elves, but they are far from identical. High Elven exiles are identical, which is the entire problem.

If the developers wouldn't be showing high elves time and again on the Alliance if it wasn't the case.

As I recall when this controversy blew up in 2018 they did remove a lot of high elves from the Arathi warfront, and the number of high elves active during the war can literally be counted on one hand. But they are a small part of the story, so the occasional use of an exile should just be taken for what it is, a small token reflecting that once upon a time they were a full member of the Alliance.

Dalaran was not involved back in TBC when the Amani trolls threatened Silvermoon, but the high elves were there. Dalaran also wasn't involved in the second siege on Orgrimmar, but the high elves were there.

No high elves were seen on the field at the battle of the gates of Orgrimmar. Veressa was seen in a non speaking capacity in razor hill, accompanying Void Elf racial leader Alleria Windrunner.

And there were no high elves present in TBC at Zul'Aman and no Dalaran either as Dalaran was still being rebuilt.

To all of that, I say: so what? High elves also have their magisters, farstriders and dragonhawks. 'Having a city/kingdom' is meaningless since gnomes and worgen don't have theirs anymore. And the blood elves only govern the blood elves. High elves do not follow Silvermoon's government. That's like saying Stormwind humans govern over the Defias. Or that the Eredar govern the draenei since the Eredar control Argus. Or that the Iron Horde governed over the Frostwolves, in AU Draenor.

The gnomes and Worgen maintain their states in exile. The state of Quel'thalas still persists. And the high elves are traitors to that state, just as the Defias are traitors to the Kingdom of Stormwind.

I don't want the factions to end. I just want the Alliance-aligned high elves to be playable.

Which is a Void Elf, the compromise crafted to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf, and which is described as another flavour of high elf. This compromise gives the Alliance a thalassian elf unique to the Alliance that does not infringe on the integrity of the Horde or the identity of the Blood Elves.

We do not want to play as blood elves. If we wanted to play as an "Alliance blood elf", this thread would've ended when blood elves were added to the Alliance in the form of void elves.

Which is a sentiment predicated on your mistaken starting point, that Blood Elves are not high elves. As I said, this is a problem as you keep arguing a point you are simply never going to win. You can keep saying Blood Elves are not High Elves, but everyone and everything related to this game contradicts that assertion.

You say you don't want the factions to go away, but that is the only way you are likely to realise this goal. If one angle is impossible, and the other is unpalatable, then I am afraid you are out of angles.

[Shakana]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

I know it lacks a further explanation but as i was saying to pennem, i think the lore sometimes makes already no sense for so many things. That at this point, we could just not follow the lore 100%.
And high elf is something really complex to do with the lore we have, when you want to make one more elf in the alliance that looks the exact same in horde.
Not only a blood elf is being "robbed", as they will have copies with 1.a void theme blood/high elf; 2.If they get high elves separated on alliance, they will have one more copy of a blood elf, and they will have 2 BLOOD ELVES basically.
So why not just shove it all on void elves instead? Or even change their faces a little bit. Doesn't need to make sense. I keep saying that blood elves looked like night elves and when they were turned playable they total made it different.
Sometimes for something to exist (and even more when we talk about high elves and elves in general), we need different looks to be distinguished. As i said i wouldn't even mind having the same copy paste elf from blood elf in alliance, cause i would just spit on it's dead body and tea bag it.
But some people do care about this similarity and it can be annoying.

Or you know, just give the options to a blood elf as in "we were you in the past". No big deal.

I don't find any of it a big deal, if you ask me.
If the lore is complex to make a character playable, then something non-logical needs to be done. But the alliance with a high elf would be wining this "my blood elf is better than yours", cause you would not just have 1 race (void elf) but 2 (void elf and high elf).

Alliance would then have 3 elves. And Horde 2.
While making customizations on existent ones would keep the 2/2.

Void elf with high elf customization.
Or blood elf with high elf eye color change. (Wouldn't be too bad since they already have gold eyes). And wouldn't be hard to distinguish because they wouldn't be on the opposite faction of blood elves.

The problem was making blood elves go horde, i would say. But they are horde since the first expansion ever on wow, not going to change that now.

My own idea was: Make high elves and blood elves get along, and since they get along and some returning to silvermoon, would make it have blue eyes customization. They are not yet in the game playable, so they can do this. This would be simpler in my mind, and easier to execute. The whole problem was high elves not wanting to follow the same ideals and culture and not accepting it.

OR

Fel is no longer their only source of energy. Sunwell was purified ages ago. Consists in arcane now along with holy - which is where the blue eyes came in the first place before the fel (and golden recently). Could be another explanation. So they would be able to return to blue eyes. Fel is hard to get rid, but not THAT hard. And BAM, suddenly, no problem with population. (my favorite)
Only the alliance playerbase would be against blizzard if they did it. But this is also lore.
This would mean they would be returning to blue eyes, without stretching the lore of the old high elves. Blood elves would still be blood elves, returning themselves naturally to blue eyes.

(I don't always type so much explaining but when i do, i do indeed type a lot.)

[Frenchvince]

I'm not sure I really follow this "Void Elf customization equals High Elf" argument? I'm not really opposed to customization options that open up more "normal" looks for Void Elves (e.g. features that make them look a bit less "voidy"), but that wouldn't make them High Elves anymore than slapping blue on a Blood Elf makes them a High Elf - not if you define a High Elf as one of the exiles of Quel'Thalas due to the political reformations post-Third War. We know the story of the Void Elves, their origins and why they leave the Horde and join the Alliance, they aren't the High Elven exiles this thread typically discusses, and their story is entirely different from that sect of Elves.

As I said BFA is finished and the cycle of allied races too because it was a feature of this extension.
Shadowlands comes with lots of new features and the customization options are part of it, which gives even more possibilities to blizzard.

Blizzard may have been preparing the ground by first offering us the void elves, and they had the delicacy to offer hairstyles without tentacles, I find that they saw right for players like me not attracted with a mutation too developed.

They can take the cursor even further with the customization options, by offering more natural skin and hair tones.
Regarding eye color (The big novelty of shadowlands, finally being able to choose the eye color independently of the face),
I think having the choice between the bluish white of the void elf and the high-elf blue, with or without a glow, would also be perfect.

we could finally look like the hero of the alliance that represents the void elves, Alleria.

[DeicideUH]

Something did occur to me with the Shadowlands announcement - most of the High Elven people died in the Third War, and many of those dead would have found themselves in the lands we're about to explore. Those looking for a true "Allied Race" treatment for the High Elven exiles and their pre-War kin might not have far to look if the way into afterlife is laid bare, perhaps there is a way that some of those departed beings return - marked by the transition from life to death and back again but still recognizably High Elven in nature? Would be an interesting advancement to their story, and a way to delineate between the High Elven exiles currently present and the Blood and Void Elves.

Not idea if that will happen, of course, but it seems possible.

Personally, I would like to avoid any stories about resurrecting long-dead people. Death needs to mean something.

[Shakana]

Personally, I would like to avoid any stories about resurrecting long-dead people. Death needs to mean something.

Same, some character's arcs are finished. It had a strong story some of them. Lich king / arthas returning from shadowlands and kael'thas would be something i wouldn't want.
Enough of recycling characters. Make new ones.

[DeicideUH]

Same, some character's arcs are finished. It had a strong story some of them. Lich king / arthas returning from shadowlands and kael'thas would be something i wouldn't want.
Enough of recycling characters. Make new ones.

Stories should move forward. I hated WoD's premise because it was a rethread that only harmed the setting's consistencies. I'd rather have the BfA mag'har come from Outland. It's simpler, it's clearer, it's natural.

I'm really dreading that some of Blizzard's plans is to undo the night elf genocide by saving everyone from the Shadowlands. I really hope I'm wrong. Stories need to cope with the past and move forward rather than try to erase or rewrite history.

[Aucald]

That would probably be a very bad idea. If individuals can return to life from the Shadowlands then why not all individuals who died?

The victims of the purge of Stratholme, or those Draenei who perished during the genocide, or the Night Elves burned in Teldrassil, why can't they all come back as well?

I get some might try and argue that only high elves would come back, but the principle is there and if breached, would lead to people asking 'why can't x come back?'. I would be extremely, exceptionally wary of anything that erases the consequences of death in the living world, as that would render death something of no consequence.

Bringing the dead back to life en masse robs events of their sense of tragedy. Can I foresee individuals coming back to life in Shadowlands? Conceivably yes, but only characters of immense importance to the lore and only with great difficulty to emphasise the momentous and almost unique nature of the occasion. If it can happen, it can't be seen to be easily replicated.

On a more specific note, why would the resurrected mass of high elves go to the Alliance? Surely the vast majority of them would return home to Silvermoon? They are the dead relatives and friends and compatriots of the Blood Elves after all.

We already have a lore precedent as for why that wouldn't be the case with most beings - from departed souls who've decided to become Kyrians and thus lost their identity (and any desire to return to their old lives with it) to those whose anima has been bestowed onto the Wild Gods who have entered the afterlife and become fuel for their resurrection. And, of course, any souls trapped in Revendreth wouldn't be surrendered until they'd been "reformed" through whatever processes the Venthyr espouse, as is the case with the Shade of Kael'thas we're going to meet up with. The long ago dead would've already been processed, any hope for their resurrection gone with their embers of their anima. Quite possible this is true of the High Elven dead as well, as we don't really know if time works the same in the Shadowlands or not, though given the persistence of Kael'thas it seems likely some remain in other regions of the Shadowlands, if not alongside him in Revendreth.

As for where the resurrected High Elven dead would go, that remains to be seen. I'm thinking more of it in terms of the story as opposed to terms of faction balance or what have you. If you wanted to divert them to the Alliance you could simply have them find common cause with them through some narrative hook - a reaction against the damned shade of Kael'thas, agreement with their exiled kin, a combination of the two, or even knowledge of and/or a desire for vengeance against Sylvanas for reasons new to the story. If you wanted to divert them to the Horde you could just have them agree with their living Blood Elven kin, or perhaps remain loyal to the former ideas of Kael'thas, etc. etc.

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Personally, I would like to avoid any stories about resurrecting long-dead people. Death needs to mean something.

Eh, WoW's long been a revolving door of actually dead or long thought dead personalities suddenly returning for another turn in the spotlight, even before we were set to enter the literal afterlife of the Warcraft universe for adventures there. As long as we don't see the dramatic return of almost everyone who's died I don't think much changes here - though YMMV, of course.

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As I said BFA is finished and the cycle of allied races too because it was a feature of this extension.
Shadowlands comes with lots of new features and the customization options are part of it, which gives even more possibilities to blizzard.

Blizzard may have been preparing the ground by first offering us the void elves, and they had the delicacy to offer hairstyles without tentacles, I find that they saw right for players like me not attracted with a mutation too developed.

They can take the cursor even further with the customization options, by offering more natural skin and hair tones.
Regarding eye color (The big novelty of shadowlands, finally being able to choose the eye color independently of the face),
I think having the choice between the bluish white of the void elf and the high-elf blue, with or without a glow, would also be perfect.

we could finally look like the hero of the alliance that represents the void elves, Alleria.

I don't think BfA will end the Allied Race system, myself. It was one of the more effective features of both Legion and BfA and I think it's going to be around for some time still. Shadowlands showcases a lot of new races for its various thematic zones, and I can't help but expect a few of these might be joining the Alliance or the Horde as Allied Races in the final confrontation with both Sylvanas and the Jailer. The Kyrians and the Necrolords seem like two strong contenders for the Alliance Race treatment, though the Night Fae and Venthyr are possible as well.

Enhanced customization offers up a lot of potential, don't get me wrong - but Allied Races add both story and plot hooks to the game, above and beyond elements designed to be more or less retrofitted into the existing game world.

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I know it lacks a further explanation but as i was saying to pennem, i think the lore sometimes makes already no sense for so many things. That at this point, we could just not follow the lore 100%.
And high elf is something really complex to do with the lore we have, when you want to make one more elf in the alliance that looks the exact same in horde.
Not only a blood elf is being "robbed", as they will have copies with 1.a void theme blood/high elf; 2.If they get high elves separated on alliance, they will have one more copy of a blood elf, and they will have 2 BLOOD ELVES basically.
So why not just shove it all on void elves instead? Or even change their faces a little bit. Doesn't need to make sense. I keep saying that blood elves looked like night elves and when they were turned playable they total made it different.
Sometimes for something to exist (and even more when we talk about high elves and elves in general), we need different looks to be distinguished. As i said i wouldn't even mind having the same copy paste elf from blood elf in alliance, cause i would just spit on it's dead body and tea bag it.
But some people do care about this similarity and it can be annoying.

Or you know, just give the options to a blood elf as in "we were you in the past". No big deal.

I don't find any of it a big deal, if you ask me.
If the lore is complex to make a character playable, then something non-logical needs to be done. But the alliance with a high elf would be wining this "my blood elf is better than yours", cause you would not just have 1 race (void elf) but 2 (void elf and high elf).

Alliance would then have 3 elves. And Horde 2.
While making customizations on existent ones would keep the 2/2.

Void elf with high elf customization.
Or blood elf with high elf eye color change. (Wouldn't be too bad since they already have gold eyes). And wouldn't be hard to distinguish because they wouldn't be on the opposite faction of blood elves.

The problem was making blood elves go horde, i would say. But they are horde since the first expansion ever on wow, not going to change that now.

My own idea was: Make high elves and blood elves get along, and since they get along and some returning to silvermoon, would make it have blue eyes customization. They are not yet in the game playable, so they can do this. This would be simpler in my mind, and easier to execute. The whole problem was high elves not wanting to follow the same ideals and culture and not accepting it.

OR

Fel is no longer their only source of energy. Sunwell was purified ages ago. Consists in arcane now along with holy - which is where the blue eyes came in the first place before the fel (and golden recently). Could be another explanation. So they would be able to return to blue eyes. Fel is hard to get rid, but not THAT hard. And BAM, suddenly, no problem with population. (my favorite)
Only the alliance playerbase would be against blizzard if they did it. But this is also lore.
This would mean they would be returning to blue eyes, without stretching the lore of the old high elves. Blood elves would still be blood elves, returning themselves naturally to blue eyes.

(I don't always type so much explaining but when i do, i do indeed type a lot.)

I am not myself a faction partisan, so from a purely "balance" standpoint I often I find I don't really care if the Alliance gets 3 Elven extracts while the Horde only has 2, or vice-versa for that matter - the notion kind of smacks me as a somewhat juvenile tit-for-tat (no offense intended to you personally). There's this long-standing argument that if the Alliance receives something then the Horde must receive its opposite, or again vice-versa; regardless of the nature of what's added or what occurs. While I agree with this principle in terms of statistical balancing and representation in the game world, I don't think it should extend to the story necessarily - there can be movements and changes within the Alliance that aren't necessarily reciprocated lock-step by the Horde. I mean if the Alliance gains a race then the Horde needs one as well, that's a game balance issue to some degree, but it doesn't have to be a version of the same race either proactively or retroactively. It's okay for the Alliance to have all of some race, or none of them, regardless of player sentiment or the faction in question.

That having been said, I'm not a zealot either - I'm fine with the High Elven exiles not getting added at all to *either* faction, as I think as they are now there's no reason for them to ally with either faction due to narrative hooks of their own (e.g. their paucity, and the danger of commitment to hostilities those numbers can't bear). My main advocacy for their return is just due to how often they've been showcased in previous story-arcs, which has an element of teasing their involvement while offering nothing, which is a shame in my opinion. They've become one of the most sought-after of inclusions by many people, and it feels somehow wrong not for that desire not to be realized. They need a strong narrative hook and a change in circumstance for that kind of treatment to occur though, which many people have provided in a number of ways that could be easily realized in the story.

On the level of Void Elf customization making them more traditionally High Elven in appearance, I'm generally fine with that - go nuts, I say. If the High Elven exiles aren't going to be made playable then I think it's a suitable enough compromise, though it's not going to satisfy everyone obviously. My level of commitment isn't high enough for it to matter to me overly - but as I said previously, I don't think this customization should be so marked that it could conceivably strip away everything that makes the Void Elves what they are, what makes them unique. Suppressing every single aspect of their Void taint in the name of allowing them to LARP as High Elves seems misguided to me, but giving people the option of having Void Elves with a bit more traditional Blood/High Elven appearance isn't a bad thing in my view.

[Shakana]

We already have a lore precedent as for why that wouldn't be the case with most beings - from departed souls who've decided to become Kyrians and thus lost their identity (and any desire to return to their old lives with it) to those whose anima has been bestowed onto the Wild Gods who have entered the afterlife and become fuel for their resurrection. And, of course, any souls trapped in Revendreth wouldn't be surrendered until they'd been "reformed" through whatever processes the Venthyr espouse, as is the case with the Shade of Kael'thas we're going to meet up with. The long ago dead would've already been processed, any hope for their resurrection gone with their embers of their anima. Quite possible this is true of the High Elven dead as well, as we don't really know if time works the same in the Shadowlands or not, though given the persistence of Kael'thas it seems likely some remain in other regions of the Shadowlands, if not alongside him in Revendreth.

As for where the resurrected High Elven dead would go, that remains to be seen. I'm thinking more of it in terms of the story as opposed to terms of faction balance or what have you. If you wanted to divert them to the Alliance you could simply have them find common cause with them through some narrative hook - a reaction against the damned shade of Kael'thas, agreement with their exiled kin, a combination of the two, or even knowledge of and/or a desire for vengeance against Sylvanas for reasons new to the story. If you wanted to divert them to the Horde you could just have them agree with their living Blood Elven kin, or perhaps remain loyal to the former ideas of Kael'thas, etc. etc.

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Eh, WoW's long been a revolving door of actually dead or long thought dead personalities suddenly returning for another turn in the spotlight, even before we were set to enter the literal afterlife of the Warcraft universe for adventures there. As long as we don't see the dramatic return of almost everyone who's died I don't think much changes here - though YMMV, of course.

- - - Updated - - -



I don't think BfA will end the Allied Race system, myself. It was one of the more effective features of both Legion and BfA and I think it's going to be around for some time still. Shadowlands showcases a lot of new races for its various thematic zones, and I can't help but expect a few of these might be joining the Alliance or the Horde as Allied Races in the final confrontation with both Sylvanas and the Jailer. The Kyrians and the Necrolords seem like two strong contenders for the Alliance Race treatment, though the Night Fae and Venthyr are possible as well.

Enhanced customization offers up a lot of potential, don't get me wrong - but Allied Races add both story and plot hooks to the game, above and beyond elements designed to be more or less retrofitted into the existing game world.

- - - Updated - - -



I am not myself a faction partisan, so from a purely "balance" standpoint I often I find I don't really care if the Alliance gets 3 Elven extracts while the Horde only has 2, or vice-versa for that matter - the notion kind of smacks me as a somewhat juvenile tit-for-tat (no offense intended to you personally). There's this long-standing argument that if the Alliance receives something then the Horde must receive its opposite, or again vice-versa; regardless of the nature of what's added or what occurs. While I agree with this principle in terms of statistical balancing and representation in the game world, I don't think it should extend to the story necessarily - there can be movements and changes within the Alliance that aren't necessarily reciprocated lock-step by the Horde. I mean if the Alliance gains a race then the Horde needs one as well, that's a game balance issue to some degree, but it doesn't have to be a version of the same race either proactively or retroactively. It's okay for the Alliance to have all of some race, or none of them, regardless of player sentiment or the faction in question.

That having been said, I'm not a zealot either - I'm fine with the High Elven exiles not getting added at all to *either* faction, as I think as they are now there's no reason for them to ally with either faction due to narrative hooks of their own (e.g. their paucity, and the danger of commitment to hostilities those numbers can't bear). My main advocacy for their return is just due to how often they've been showcased in previous story-arcs, which has an element of teasing their involvement while offering nothing, which is a shame in my opinion. They've become one of the most sought-after of inclusions by many people, and it feels somehow wrong not for that desire not to be realized. They need a strong narrative hook and a change in circumstance for that kind of treatment to occur though, which many people have provided in a number of ways that could be easily realized in the story.

On the level of Void Elf customization making them more traditionally High Elven in appearance, I'm generally fine with that - go nuts, I say. If the High Elven exiles aren't going to be made playable then I think it's a suitable enough compromise, though it's not going to satisfy everyone obviously. My level of commitment isn't high enough for it to matter to me overly - but as I said previously, I don't think this customization should be so marked that it could conceivably strip away everything that makes the Void Elves what they are, what makes them unique. Suppressing every single aspect of their Void taint in the name of allowing them to LARP as High Elves seems misguided to me, but giving people the option of having Void Elves with a bit more traditional Blood/High Elven appearance isn't a bad thing in my view.

Void elves, if anything, are the most unique compared to any blood or high elf. I think alliance is lucky to have them, imo. When high elves are just simply a eye change, I think blizzard did really good in actual creating a unique race instead. Just as I think the nightborne are. Because no matter how they look (body etc) they have their own thing going on. I would say it's way more interesting and better than a blue eyed color aka blood elf alias for alliance.

This is just my opinion ofc.
I think that the only thing that would make them more unique (the high elves) would be giving them new looks, faces and postures. But that only doesn't happen because for blizzard they are still blood elves. Regardless the faction and the culture.

[Aucald]

Void elves, if anything, are the most unique compared to any blood or high elf. I think alliance is lucky to have them, imo. When high elves are just simply a eye change, I think blizzard did really good in actual creating a unique race instead. Just as I think the nightborne are. Because no matter how they look (body etc) they have their own thing going on. I would say it's way more interesting and better than a blue eyed color aka blood elf alias for alliance.

This is just my opinion ofc.
I think that the only thing that would make them more unique (the high elves) would be giving them new looks, faces and postures. But that only doesn't happen because for blizzard they are still blood elves. Regardless the faction and the culture.

I agree, I like the Void Elves both for their aesthetically unique quality and their "newness" in the narrative over all - whereas most Elves tend to stem from an ancient and storied society, the Void Elves are more an emergent phenomenon, entirely new and forced to find a place in a world that mistrusts what they are at an intrinsic level. High Elves, too, have their own plight and circumstances unique to them but they're not quite as emergent nor as unique as the Void Elves.

[Ielenia]

You aren't unbiased in your analysis as you desire it to be wrong though.

You're one to talk.

All you do is to return to this thread, over and over and over, and repeat the same tired arguments. Arguments that people here have analyzed and explained why they don't work as well as you think they do. "Unique model" is no longer a viable argument with allied races. "Unique skin color" is also no longer a viable argument with allied races. "Low population" is no longer an argument, again, thanks to allied races. "Unique history" is also no longer a viable argument, once more, thanks to allied races: nightborne and night elves share the exact same history, up ot the point of the Sundering. Void elves and blood elves share the exact same history, up to the point of Umbric's banishment from Silvermoon.

You have to know what I am about to say here as I am more than sure you've said this before and I responded the same way, but Zandalari Trolls are a different kind of Troll.

They kept themselves in splendid isolation for thousands upon thousands of years in their home city and looked down upon the other, inferior troll tribes.

They are the exact same kind of troll. Lavishing themselves with riches and living atop a golden pyramid does not make them a "different kind" of troll.

You first need to accept that Blood Elves are High Elves

But not all high elves are blood elves. This is what you have to accept. Blood elves are no longer high elves, as far as the game, and lore, are concerned. They've given up on the name, while some Thalassian elves did not. To continue to refer to the blood elves as 'high elves' is dishonest since it ignores and denies the existence of groups actually called 'high elves' in lore and in the game. Want to refer to all the races of elves? There is a name for that: Thalassian elves.

The similar situations all have their own nuances which, if explored, show that they aren't that similar after all. Case in point, the Zandalari.

Again, your argument falls short: Zandalari trolls are still trolls. They have been given different posture simply for the sake of differentiation, same case with the Kul'Tiran humans.

Which is only your own esoteric interpretation,

It's not "esoteric", it's basic character design 101.

which means either the developers are right or Ielenia is right.

Which is your interpretation, but I don't recall hearing or seeing the developers say anything that contradicts what I say regarding unique silhouettes for this to be a dichotomy.

As I recall when this controversy blew up in 2018 they did remove a lot of high elves from the Arathi warfront, and the number of high elves active during the war can literally be counted on one hand. But they are a small part of the story, so the occasional use of an exile should just be taken for what it is, a small token reflecting that once upon a time they were a full member of the Alliance.

In your opinion. We still have high elves being shown in the Alliance, being part of the Alliance, helping the Alliance, fighting for the Alliance. They point is that they exist, and the population argument doesn't fly anymore.

No high elves were seen on the field at the battle of the gates of Orgrimmar. Veressa was seen in a non speaking capacity in razor hill, accompanying Void Elf racial leader Alleria Windrunner.

She and the Silver Covenant were still there. It doesn't matter if she had no spoken lines to the PC.

And there were no high elves present in TBC at Zul'Aman and no Dalaran either as Dalaran was still being rebuilt.

It's my mistake, I thought it was TBC, but it's actually on Cataclysm, when the Zandalari was trying to unite the other troll tribes. But they are still there.

The gnomes and Worgen maintain their states in exile. The state of Quel'thalas still persists. And the high elves are traitors to that state, just as the Defias are traitors to the Kingdom of Stormwind.

The draenei are also "traitors" to their original state. The night elves are also "traitors" to their original state. The blood elves as a whole are also "traitors" since their leader was Kael'Thas and they rebelled against him. And speaking of traitors... how many times have the orcs rebelled against their leaders, just in this decade?

Which is a Void Elf, the compromise crafted

Funny how the only ones that call the void elves a 'compromise' are the anti-high-elf group. I don't think I heard or saw a WoW developer refer to the void elves as 'compromise'.

Which is a sentiment predicated on your mistaken starting point, that Blood Elves are not high elves.

It's not a "mistaken" point. It's how it is. It's how the game presents them to us: high elves is a group, and blood elves is another group. They're not the same. They were once the same, but no longer, ever since the blood elves took on a different moniker and dropped their customs of old in lieu of survival.

[Varodoc]

I agree, I like the Void Elves both for their aesthetically unique quality and their "newness" in the narrative over all - whereas most Elves tend to stem from an ancient and storied society, the Void Elves are more an emergent phenomenon, entirely new and forced to find a place in a world that mistrusts what they are at an intrinsic level. High Elves, too, have their own plight and circumstances unique to them but they're not quite as emergent nor as unique as the Void Elves.

Very true. I completely agree with what you said. That's why I don't see Ren'dorei as just a cheap way to have playable high elves in the Alliance. Because they are actually unique, they have their own themes, their own original aesthetics, their own character.

[Ielenia]

I agree, I like the Void Elves both for their aesthetically unique quality and their "newness" in the narrative over all - whereas most Elves tend to stem from an ancient and storied society, the Void Elves are more an emergent phenomenon, entirely new and forced to find a place in a world that mistrusts what they are at an intrinsic level. High Elves, too, have their own plight and circumstances unique to them but they're not quite as emergent nor as unique as the Void Elves.

Adding my two cents here: I do like the void elf aesthetics and theme. My entire contention, which sours my entire experience with them, is their lore. Or rather, their origins: banished blood elves. If Umbric and his research team were a group of high elf magisters, from the Silver Covenant, I would be more than satisfied with the void elves. They'd be considered a decent compromise, in my opinion.

Also, having high elves in the Alliance is (again, in my opinion) a good opportunity for both groups (BEs and HEs) to grow further apart and develop, and grants good opportunities for conflict (and therefore storytelling) between both groups, by having both argue and fight over historic artifacts and locations from their shared pasts.

[Shakana]

Very true. I completely agree with what you said. That's why I don't see Ren'dorei as just a cheap way to have playable high elves in the Alliance. Because they are actually unique, they have their own themes, their own original aesthetics, their own character.

They are not at all a cheap way to make it playable. They only had a rushed introduction in the game. Where's high elves have been here for far too long amongst "us" without being able to play, and people are used to the idea that by now they could be playable.

But i think they are way more unique as Aucald said they are an emergent phenomenon. If i was alliance and we had between high and void elves to choose, i would still prefer to choose void elves to play. In a heartbeat. I once changed to alliance, trying to find something and i experienced myself, and liked the void elves a lot, so much i even thought "wish they would be horde", because they are actually great.