Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ignaz]

NP, but that's the thing with Syeg, one ends on these tangents so far removed from the actual points, which I feel is inescapable when the argument method becomes decontextualizing and responding to each sentence separately. It's just not good arguing.

Yeah I've already noticed that. Evading the line of debate to create an ideal environment for X point is a dirty but reliable weapon. Although I plead guilty to playing the game because I love exposing those kinds of people.

[Syegfryed]

No, not all "fat" kul tirans have druidic abilities. Not by far

right, i didn't say all fat kul'tirans have, i said all of the kul'tirans druids are the fat ones, there is not a single one normal kul'tiran druid

as the same, you don't see normal guilneans using shapeshift and other major druid powers, only the ones affected by worgen curse

but sure, call "coincidence"

well, at first you say he joined the community and now he didn't?

the thornspeakers but Ulfar, he lived alone and just teach people who goes to him, he didn't left descendants

There is no evidence of interbreeding.

except they literally looking like vrykuls?

And how do you know that?

because is never pointed out, ever, and because drust are not jews

Ion said it when they first announced allied races, to clear the speculation that allied races are in fact subraces.

h said the exactly the opposite, in a Q&A, i give you the quote

When they announced BfA and Kul Tiras as a continent for the Alliance, they also announced kul tirans. They said the are humans hardened by harsh environment and years of seafaring and monster hunting.

that alone already proves they are a variant/another breed of humans

. Right now it is that Kul Tirans are humans.

yeah, a different variant/breed/kind of human

No, they don't. Drust are shown in game as Vrykul (as you corrected me) or regular human. They are never shown to look like kul tiran. And kul tiran are definitely different to both regular human and vrykul as well.

drust are vrykul, therefore they look like vrykul

Kul'tirans look like vrykuls, therefore, they look like drust

I didn't brought elves to this discussion. The thing with these kul tirans is that you are clamining they have drust origin in a way it is already written in chronicles and it is valid part of the lore, while it is ONLY A SPECULATION. It is a mere theory now, which is not confirmed or even commented on by Blizzard. While I have no problem to create theories and speculations, you can't claim it is like that.

there is evidence in the Ulfar quotes, supported by their appearence, and again, this is just to show more difference of the variants

Even if they come out public saying no, there is no drust blood on then yada yada, they are still different, not just "culturally", unlike elves, like people want to put in the same bag

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yeah I've already noticed that. Evading the line of debate to create an ideal environment for X point is a dirty but reliable weapon. Although I plead guilty to playing the game because I love exposing those kinds of people.

The problem is whatever argument is being made gets torn into smaller, contextless tidbits, to the point what is being argued is lost. makes me wish there was an ignore function.

[Syegfryed]

You know, y'all free to discuss whatever you like, but can I say that continuing to indulge Syeg on his "one sentence" reply style, creating huge posts on each page, really takes out the joy of coming to this page and discuss?

Between Syeg continuing to drag people into inane sentence-by-sentence discussion and Ravenmoon's highborne rants, this thread just feels so much worse yo.

who is "dragging" me into the discussion, is the dude you replied and the Ilenia guy, cause they apparently think this is a fight and they have to win, i was already gone when i left a comment about how void elves should not get all the blood elves customization

And you can always ignore other users, lets not pretend this thread wasn't always like this too.

In this line we are talking about situations not races.

??? we are talking about races, pandaren is the same race, the elves are not

And how do you know that the Velves are a different race if they have not procreated?

their mutation, their racials, their description, etc

you integrate your perception and convert it as an absolute concept. At no time does Ion make it clear what faction identity means.

faction identity also means no races going neutral in both factions, since races make a big chunk of the identity of a faction, this is supported by Ion take on why not HE but VE

How can you know if the current culture of the Helves has not been fully explored?

how can you say they became different too? the only contact with high elves show they are still thallasian elves, mainly the silver covenant

evidence supported by observation

you are going to keep saying the same wrong thing?

Just as they talked about stormwind and kul'tiran humans?

no.. there is clearly difference between then, and they literally talked about their differences

last chase of redemption.

check the previous comment, answering this question, i know you are doing on purpose

Look. You are basing a principle on a premise supported by an assumption, not on facts

like you said

evidence supported by observation

It is not that it seems to you. There are grammatical rules that fit any text. You are not following those rules and you are causing a confusión (for yourself) with the subjects in the context.

Seems like you are overthinking quotes of an old drust druid, wanting then to be the perfect form of english

it make no sense for him to say the thornspeaker descendants and only refers as the normal humans, hell, if he was talking about just normal humans, make no sense to use the word descendants at all

Of course there are visual differences (canonical or not),

and again, there is not, and if its not canonical its not valid

Try to fight with valid arguments not with emotions.

there is no "emotions" friend, i said i can use if i want, because its true, im free to do that, if you don't think i can, that is up to you, i will not change that.

and again, there is no contradiction in his words, you are confusing ingame things mostly due to the gameplay with canon sources

You are the one who twists a text that is perfectly understandable. 3 out of 4 people who have touched the text in the debate have understood it in the same way.

ironically, 3 out of 4 are helf supporters/sympathizers, such coincidence

Have being proved wrong by whom?

canon sources and developers saying they have no difference whatsoever

So, only Ion is right and the other blizzard spokespersons have no valid points. keep going dude

other blizzard spokepersons said the kul'tirans are another variant/breed of humans, guess we are going to ignore that too

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

who is "dragging" me into the discussion, is the dude you replied and the Ilenia guy, cause they apparently think this is a fight and they have to win, i was already gone when i left a comment about how void elves should not get all the blood elves customization

And you can always ignore other users, lets not pretend this thread wasn't always like this too.

I'm just pointing out how I abhor your tendency to decontextualize arguments and your sentence-by-sentence reply. You end up doing that with everyone man! It's impossible to actually have a conversation with you like this. I gave up a long time ago.

[Syegfryed]

I'm just pointing out how I abhor your tendency to decontextualize arguments and your sentence-by-sentence reply. You end up doing that with everyone man! It's impossible to actually have a conversation with you like this. I gave up a long time ago.

its way more easy and succinct to break posts since most of it is talking about different points, its being like this all this years in this forum.

do a wall of text talking about different things is what descontextualize" for me, im dyslexic and things goes way worse like that. i can barely read what most of those night elves are saying with their essays by example

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

its way more easy and succinct to break posts since most of it is talking about different points, its being like this all this years in this forum.

do a wall of text talking about different things is what descontextualize" for me, im dyslexic and things goes way worse like that. i can barely read what most of those night elves are saying with their essays by example

No one can read those NE diatribes, don't worry.

But what I am saying is that decontextualizing the point, by breaking it down based on sentence and not overall argument, really hurts the conversation and you end up on rabbit holes, and it makes it specially difficult for other people to even understand what is being argued.

[Ignaz]

their mutation, their racials, their description, etc

None of that takes for granted that they are a different race. It will be verified when they procreate and their children inherit those same characteristics. until then, they are just another playable race (just like pandaren).

faction identity also means no races going neutral in both factions, since races make a big chunk of the identity of a faction, this is supported by Ion take on why not HE but VE

anyway they did. with pandaren and thalassian elves

check the previous comment, answering this question, i know you are doing on purpose

I gave you many opportunities to prove your point by only answering two simple questions, you didn't. You will be in front of people who will read and identify you as someone who is not capable of analyzing a question or as a manipulator.

Seems like you are overthinking quotes of an old drust druid, wanting then to be the perfect form of english

it make no sense for him to say the thornspeaker descendants and only refers as the normal humans, hell, if he was talking about just normal humans, make no sense to use the word descendants at all

Hahahaha. now it turns out that grammar rules are a luxury. Keep going.

ironically, 3 out of 4 are helf supporters/sympathizers, such coincidence

Helf supporters / sympathizers talking about humans. I don't see the coincidence

[Alixie]

I cant wait to make a pretty, non purple Void Elf. I still cant believe they made Blood Elves basically Pandaren.

[FlubberPuddy]

I cant wait to make a pretty, non purple Void Elf. I still cant believe they made Blood Elves basically Pandaren.

And now Night Elves are getting what are essentially a "Dark Ranger" option. lol

I wonder how many Blood Elves who only played Blood Elves to look like a High Elf will come to Alliance where there's also High Elves, but now "Dark Rangers" as well.

Then again, there's also probably a good amount who will plunk blue eyes onto a Blood Elf and stay as they really want to play on Horde rather than Alliance.

But anyways, now we'll see where faction loyalty lies when it comes to not only Pandaren but also High Elves. Since both are available to each faction, someone having great "faction pride" can now express it without being held back my locked in race looks.

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Although I plead guilty to playing the game because I love exposing those kinds of people.

I'm guilty of that as well, it happens!

But I agree with @MyWholeLifeIsThunder , also that whenever someone's goal is simply to have the last word, they will twist/decontextualize anything to keep it going. Since the goal is to keep it going by having the last word.

[Frenchvince]

Male High Elf NPCs have been updated with new blue eyes.

Before / after

[Vaedan]

...

Well, this is ridiculous. It is clear that any dialogue with you is pointless, since all you do is
- repeating the same argument all over again without any prove other than your assumptions and headcannons
- you fail to acknowledge any other explanation which is in conflict with your view
- twisting and cherrypicking arguments to suit your needs

right, i didn't say all fat kul'tirans have, i said all of the kul'tirans druids are the fat ones, there is not a single one normal kul'tiran druid

as the same, you don't see normal guilneans using shapeshift and other major druid powers, only the ones affected by worgen curse

but sure, call "coincidence"

Well, you didn't say it openly, but what are you clamining, that druidism is racial thing, which you inhert from your ancestors, pretty much imply that. If they would be same race, ALL of kul tirans of that ancestry would have those powers, not only selected those who TRAINS with Thornspeakers. I still wonder why do you fail to acknowledge that when it is obvious.

Gilneans were druids long before curse. They called themselves harvest witches and were practising druidism for long time. They certainly lacked guidance and knowledge to push them further. Practise of holy light and arcane push harvest witches on the edge of society, so there were not many of them and they lacked any structure in which they could be improving themselves. They got stucked. Then worgen curse came, and since it was also of druidic origin, it amplified their powers... but still, gilneans had it even before curse.

Now, are gilneans any different to other humans? No, they are not. So why they always had a sect of druids in their society? It was a cultural thing for them.

Now, let's have a look on elves. Why does night elves have druidic order? Because they were tought druidism by Cenarius. They revered him by creating whole faction in his name. That is cultural thing. Why nightborne does not have druids? They came from night elves, they had the same biology and ancestors. They are also shown to be able to manipulate nature by magics. They are not druids because of culture. Why trolls were not origninaly druids, while they are ancestors of elves, who are druids? Again, cultural thing, not racial.

and I never said that this is coincidence. Clearly it is not, but as I said many times, it is cultural thing, not racial. They are druids because their culture allows it. They are not druids because they have druidic DNA, since nothing like that exists. Even if kul tirans will be confirmed to be part vrykul, that does not mean this is the cause of their druidism. It is their culture.

the thornspeakers but Ulfar, he lived alone and just teach people who goes to him, he didn't left descendants

No, this is you twisting what he says. Ulfar words:
We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society. Some of their descendants heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways, and so we have taught them.

He says WE. It pretty much means it includes him as well. He does not say "My thornspeakers" or "Other drust" which would imply he did not join. There is no proof implying otherwise. It is only you twisting the argument to suit your needs.

because is never pointed out, ever, and because drust are not jews

Yes, it is not pointed out... but then again, you are pretty familiar with putting speculations into conversation and taking them as granted. Now you see that this approach does not really work.

On the other hand, the reason I told this was as an example from the real world showing that even if there are groups who live together, they don't have to mix with each other.

So while you have only vague evidence that drust MAY have mixed, I have lots of evidence from various vrykul groups that they most likely would not like to mix with anything other than vrykul. In the end, we are both speculating. I don't take it as granted, while you are arguing like it is a fact written in chronicles and there is no place for discussion.

that alone already proves they are a variant/another breed of humans

. Right now it is that Kul Tirans are humans.
yeah, a different variant/breed/kind of human

Yes, they are different variant of humans, but as it's been clarified by devs, they are different because of different environments and different culture. They are not considered different race by them. While having drust ancestry is attractive theory, it is clearly not important for devs while they created them. If would, we would have way more evidence regarding this than one vague quote from the last living drust.

here is evidence in the Ulfar quotes, supported by their appearence, and again, this is just to show more difference of the variants

Even if they come out public saying no, there is no drust blood on then yada yada, they are still different, not just "culturally", unlike elves, like people want to put in the same bag

This is not evidence, since there are way more people interpretting it that they just joined the community and trained kul tirans. You could even interpret it in a way that they joined the community because kul tirans heard the call of wilds. Gilneans also had druids even without any drust influence. It has not been clarified.


You know, even if they would be confirmed to have drust blood, that alone does not make them druids. It is the culture. If the druidism would be racial thing, all kul tirans would inherit it, so kul tirans would be only druids (like dryads or keepers of the grove - they have innate druidic powers, but can't be really anything else), or would be able to mix druidic powers alongside their chosen class. That would be reflected in their racials, but those only show us that they are hardened by harsh environments - resistance to frost, longer water-breathing and increased swim speed, bonus to all professions... there is nothing druidic about their racials.

This is the last post I made on this topic. This is thread for high elves, not the kul tirans.

[Syegfryed]

Well, this is ridiculous. It is clear that any dialogue with you is pointless

its pointless because one, we will not change stances and two, none of this rly matters

we can discuss all we want about their differences but in the end of the day kul'tirans are not like helves, therefore we should not say they are the same

Well, you didn't say it openly, but what are you clamining, that druidism is racial thing, which you inhert from your ancestors, pretty much imply that.

Once again, i never did that, i only point out the blatantly and obvious "coincidence" that just the fat kul'tirans are druids, just the ones who look like drust

Gilneans were druids long before curse. They called themselves harvest witches and were practising druidism for long time.

they were not druids per say, they only hold minor power over nature magic, and only the ones with the curse can shapeshift and do other druidic things

Now, are gilneans any different to other humans?

well, they can turn themselves into werewolves, thats pretty much different

and I never said that this is coincidence. Clearly it is not, but as I said many times, it is cultural thing, not racial.

if it was just cultural we could see normal kul'tirans humans druids, but there are none

unless you are saying those kul'tirans have different cultures from the other kul'tirans

No, this is you twisting what he says. Ulfar words:

And again, he talk about their descendants, who descendants if not the drust who joined their society? kul'tiran descendants? why? it make no sense to be kul'tirans descendants, since they are still kul'tirans and had nothing to do with the thornspekers before

the descendants of the thornspeeker hearing the call of the wild? that makes sense.

Yes, it is not pointed out... but then again, you are pretty familiar with putting speculations into conversation and taking them as granted. Now you see that this approach does not really work.

only if the speculation come from something who make sense, kul'tirans have nothing to do with Jews neither had nothing against mixing blood

So while you have only vague evidence that drust MAY have mixed,

vague evidence you mean their appearance, constitution and ulfar quotes, lets make it clear

I have lots of evidence from various vrykul groups that they most likely would not like to mix with anything other than vrykul

but the group of vrykul in question did joined the humans, so? they clearly have no problem with then

Yes, they are different variant of humans, but as it's been clarified by devs, they are different because of different environments and different culture. They are not considered different race by them. While having drust ancestry is attractive theory, it is clearly not important for devs while they created them. If would, we would have way more evidence regarding this than one vague quote from the last living drust.

And again, regardless of the drust theory, they are still another variant of human, not just by culture, thats the point, and because of that, they are not like the high elves

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None of that takes for granted that they are a different race. It will be verified when they procreate and their children inherit those same characteristics. until then, they are just another playable race (just like pandaren).

for someone talking about the fallacies of blizzard, this is the perfectionist fallacy you know?

anyway they did. with pandaren and thalassian elves

And there is the grostcralwer comment of how they(blizzard) didn't like pandaren, Ion pretty much stated that the same race in both faction, regardless if people think they have a totally different culture hurt the faction identity and blur the faction lines.

Blood elves and void elves are clearly different races, not just in "different culture", there is a fundamental difference in their theme, unlike pandaren, who do not hurt the race/faction identity.

I gave you many opportunities to prove your point by only answering two simple questions, you didn't. You will be in front of people who will read and identify you as someone who is not capable of analyzing a question or as a manipulator.

its pretty funny being called a manipulator by you expositor, not gonna lie

Helf supporters / sympathizers talking about humans. I don't see the coincidence

they want things to stand on, if they say kul'tirans and humans are the exact same race with no difference except "culture", this will be fuel for then to say its totally possible and valid to add high elves as a standalone allied race because there is other allied races who are exact the same, ignoring those others are in the same faction and ignoring other variables.

[BB8]

So do void elf get the skin and hair color tones of blood elves too?

[Vaedan]

So do void elf get the skin and hair color tones of blood elves too?

Only skin color tones are confirmed now. It is possible they get some of blood elf hair colors too.

[Ignaz]

I'm guilty of that as well, it happens!

But I agree with @MyWholeLifeIsThunder , also that whenever someone's goal is simply to have the last word, they will twist/decontextualize anything to keep it going. Since the goal is to keep it going by having the last word.

that's true

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for someone talking about the fallacies of blizzard, this is the perfectionist fallacy you know?

the perfectionist fallac… what?

And there is the grostcralwer comment of how they(blizzard) didn't like pandaren, Ion pretty much stated that the same race in both faction, regardless if people think they have a totally different culture hurt the faction identity and blur the faction lines.

Well it seems that they ended up liking it.

its pretty funny being called a manipulator by you expositor, not gonna lie

I love that you see the humor in the situation, that even highlights my point.

they want things to stand on, if they say kul'tirans and humans are the exact same race with no difference except "culture", this will be fuel for then to say its totally possible and valid to add high elves as a standalone allied race because there is other allied races who are exact the same, ignoring those others are in the same faction and ignoring other variables.

Conspiracy?
Don't be self-centered, there is no "all against me because I'm on the opposite side". You make a wrong grammatical interpretation (that anyone can make) and everyone points it out to you.
It is not an ancestral text that requires 1001 interpretations, it is a one-way paragraph and very easy to understand.

[Edoll]

Is it possible to look up stats of how many times individual users have posted in this thread? I’m curious how many of these 1,000 pages are made by a handful of people.

[Edward Wu]

I don't know why they didn't announce Void Elves also getting the High Elf hair colors, and why they are taking so long to show the full scope of HE customization and/or address the hair color concerns.

[Kyriani]

I don't know why they didn't announce Void Elves also getting the High Elf hair colors, and why they are taking so long to show the full scope of HE customization and/or address the hair color concerns.

Well Ion did say that it was a recent decision, as in it was a course change right after the interview where he said blue eyes were for NPC's only. They hadn't even made the skin textures using the void elf underwear yet as we can see in the teaser announcement post, so that shows how recent the decision was. The texture work may be at the end of the pipeline of things to be done. Just because they announced it now doesn't mean they have to fast track it to the head of the queue. It'll get on alpha eventually.

As to the hair colors, that's something they may still be deciding on what do with, or they may be deciding exactly what colors they plan to give and didn't want to mention it till they had the details ironed out. Again it shows how recent the decision was. We did see one of the male void elves sporting black hair in the teaser though. So that might be an indication of one of the colors Void Elves will receive.

I'm eager to see the changes hit alpha as well though, and I hope it won't take too long until I can play with them in the dressing room. We just have to be patient.

[FlubberPuddy]

Is it possible to look up stats of how many times individual users have posted in this thread? I’m curious how many of these 1,000 pages are made by a handful of people.

Yes, so when you go here https://www.mmo-champion.com/forums/...al-Discussions

You're able to see the thread titles, to the right --->> there's a Replies that shows how many posts, and you can click the number to see who has made how many individual posts in this thread.

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Male High Elf NPCs have been updated with new blue eyes.

Before / after

Beautiful!!! Now this makes me think we're more likely than not to also get those hair colors these High Elves are sporting.

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I'm eager to see the changes hit alpha as well though, and I hope it won't take too long until I can play with them in the dressing room. We just have to be patient.

Exactly, I can get pretty restless myself, but patience is the key. I mean look at the amazing customization that came to NE recently, especially females omg