Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Void Elves were thin in numbers as well, that didn't stop Blizzard implementing them. This justification isn't solid anymore. Many allied races are not of proper population.

This week it was confirmed Void Elves can increase their population from other Elves. The population argument used against Alliance High Elves does not apply to Void Elves. If anything Void Elves make it worse as we know Alliance High Elves are training in Tel'rogus rift prior to their conversion into Void Elves, exacerbating the issue with Alliance High Elves.

I have seen numerous Void Elves out in the world, either as NPCs or named characters. In fact, a large number were sent on the recent suicide mission in Nazmir. In BFA there are currently four Alliance High Elves that have been added, and two of those were nameless NPCs in a warfront.

[delus]

Fascinating. On a phone so replies short but the important takeaway is final confirmation Void Elves can replicate the transformation process and create more Void Elves. But they aren't recruiting...other elves have to seek them out. This means the population issue that is the lore justification against Alliance High Elves does not apply to Void Elves. It also means Alliance High Elves have suffered yet another population loss.

It also means you can play a Silver Covenant High elf who has embraced the void.

I believe that is every angle covered.

Judging by how blood elves are more attracted to forms of magic, I would say that void elves are going to be taking a significant amount of their population whereas high elves tend to abstain from magic. It's more likely the void elf population will grow and blood elf will significantly decline.

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This week it was confirmed Void Elves can increase their population from other Elves. The population argument used against Alliance High Elves does not apply to Void Elves. If anything Void Elves make it worse as we know Alliance High Elves are training in Tel'rogus rift prior to their conversion into Void Elves, exacerbating the issue with Alliance High Elves.

I have seen numerous Void Elves out in the world, either as NPCs or named characters. In fact, a large number were sent on the recent suicide mission in Nazmir. In BFA there are currently four Alliance High Elves that have been added, and two of those were nameless NPCs in a warfront.

It's not confirmed that they can replicate the process yet. If anything, it shows that many elves are interested in joining their ranks. That will probably be a future plot point. Any void elves you see are likely to be from umbric's group until proven otherwise.

[Garfurion]

I have seen numerous Void Elves out in the world, either as NPCs or named characters. In fact, a large number were sent on the recent suicide mission in Nazmir. In BFA there are currently four Alliance High Elves that have been added, and two of those were nameless NPCs in a warfront.

Suicide missions tend to lower populations faster than they can be increased

If there weren't enough High Elves for them to become playable then even if all High Elves would be transformed into Void Elves there still wouldn't be enough Void Elves. We also know not all High Elves are currently planning to be transformed into Blood Elves (e.g. Vereesa and other named/unnamed High Elf NPCs not studying the Void atm).

Therefore in order for the Void Elf population numbers to be high enough there have to be significant numbers of Blood Elves willing to become Void Elves.

Basically this means that at some point a Blood Elf has to be transformed into a Void Elf for every Void Elf that has died in order to keep the Void Elf population numbers above Blizzards threshold. I'm not sure if the Blood Elves, who already aren't numerous themselves, can reproduce fast enough to maintain both their own and the Void Elf population given all the Elves dying every expansion. Especially since Elves aren't known to reproduce that fast.

I wonder what Blizzard will do when we run out of Void&Blood Elves...make them both unplayable and race change every playable character?

[Obelisk Kai]

Judging by how blood elves are more attracted to forms of magic, I would say that void elves are going to be taking a significant amount of their population whereas high elves tend to abstain from magic. It's more likely the void elf population will grow and blood elf will significantly decline.

It's not confirmed that they can replicate the process yet. If anything, it shows that many elves are interested in joining their ranks. That will probably be a future plot point. Any void elves you see are likely to be from umbric's group until proven otherwise.

I don't think the Blood Elf population will decline that much. Remember, when people say Alliance High Elves are low in population, they mean REALLY low and any Alliance High Elf who converts to being a Void Elf has a far greater impact on the Alliance High Elf population than the Blood Elf population.
You also have to factor in that it is an easier step to take for an Alliance High Elf, given the Void Elves are also Alliance aligned whereas for a Blood Elf it means betraying their people and leaving their home in pursuit of power, steps Alliance High Elves have already taken and which are not barriers to the decision.

As for the comments regarding it not being confirmed, I do not agree. I've re-read the question and the answer given. The question asked was "There’s just one question: If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?". This is specifically addressing the concern that Void Elves from the scenario where they were initially created seem to be too few in number, a complaint raised constantly by pro High Elf commentators attempting to draw a parallel between Void Elves and Alliance High Elves. After all, if Void Elves are clearly such a small group, then the population argument deployed against playable Alliance High Elves by Blizzard themselves is not valid.

The answer to Polygon's question was

"“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”"

So in a question regarding Void Elves' seemingly low numbers, the response is that other Elves have approached them to see if they can also become Void Elves. I believe these are the individuals we see training with the Void Elves in tel'rogus rift and walking with them in Stormwind. Given the context of the question, the answer seems fairly straightforward. Void Elves can turn other Elves into Void Elves. This is not surprising considering they can also turn Ravasaurs into Void Ravasaurs, showing they have the capacity to imbue living beings with the void.

The reason there is such fierce pushback against the obvious, that Void Elves can turn other Elves into Void Elves, is because if that is the case (and it blatantly is) then Void Elves are liberated from the population parallel with Alliance High Elves. Void Elf numbers can be explained by saying they recruited more Elves. Alliance High Elf numbers cannot be replenished anywhere near as easily. So I don't believe it is a rational response to say Void Elves cannot convert other Elves into being Void Elves. It is an irrational one, used because of the implications on Alliance High Elves. That implication being, the lore based population argument against Alliance High Elves holds and they are by far the lowest population thalassian group.

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Suicide missions tend to lower populations faster than they can be increased

If there weren't enough High Elves for them to become playable then even if all High Elves would be transformed into Void Elves there still wouldn't be enough Void Elves. We also know not all High Elves are currently planning to be transformed into Blood Elves (e.g. Vereesa and other named/unnamed High Elf NPCs not studying the Void atm).

Therefore in order for the Void Elf population numbers to be high enough there have to be significant numbers of Blood Elves willing to become Void Elves.

Basically this means that at some point a Blood Elf has to be transformed into a Void Elf for every Void Elf that has died in order to keep the Void Elf population numbers above Blizzards threshold. I'm not sure if the Blood Elves, who already aren't numerous themselves, can reproduce fast enough to maintain both their own and the Void Elf population given all the Elves dying every expansion. Especially since Elves aren't known to reproduce that fast.

I wonder what Blizzard will do when we run out of Void&Blood Elves...make them both unplayable and race change every playable character?

Suicide missions do tend to lower populations. Yet that the Void Elves were able to spare those individuals and still remain a strong, viable part of the Alliance speaks to the fact that they now outnumber Alliance High Elves and are capable of carrying their own weight. That is why I went out of my way to mention the suicide mission, the Void Elves are capable of actions that would probably bring Alliance High Elves to an end.

While not every Alliance High Elf is going to become a Void Elf, there is a disproportionate impact on Alliance High Elves for every one of their number that converts compared to the impact of a Blood Elf who converts upon the Blood Elf population. The Blood Elves don't have a population issue, they are capable of sustaining losses in war (and defection) and continuing.

Assuming that the conversion to being a Void Elf involves a large population transfer is overreach. It just needs to be credible that sufficient Elves have made the conversion.

This is the problem with people defending Alliance High Elf numbers by pointing out other groups such as Gnomes, or Lightforged or even Mag'har Orcs. They presume, despite Blizzard pointing out that there are so few Alliance High Elves, that these other groups are so few in number that the population issue should, if fairly applied, apply to them as well. The problem is that it is in fact the opposite, that Alliance High Elves are far below even these groups who are low in number that they are a unique case. The Void Elf population does not need to be equivalent to or even be just a substantial chunk of the Blood Elf population. They can remain a small elite strike force. Their numbers merely have to be greater than that of Alliance High Elves and to be replenishible, which I believe the news this week as well as our experiences out in the world now show to be the case.

[Beloren]

I think when it comes to RPGs the ability to make your character exactly as you want (within relative reason) is one of the most underrated hallmarks of the genre. I would (and have in other games) pay a premium to have the flexibility (within WoW) to choose the race, faction, and class that I want to play. I don't consider myself special, just average, and I feel like there are many others who wish for this too as evidenced by easily googling around on the topic that many wow players would love to be able to do the same.

Mainly I just think being who you want to be in a fantasy world gets underscored a lot. It's why I've started putting more time (and money) into other games over WoW that allow the flexibility.

It's a fair point you omake tbh, and blizzard with its very unique lore, has things set a fixed way.. all this means iiis that htey can get really creative when opeining up more options. If done in a way that fits their lore and story line, the end result could always be even more engagement and fantasy.

Its the same with new race class combos, new races etc, they should give them, but in ways that fit the race even if it means doing an SWTOR style name change.

[elbleuet]

As for the lack of High Elves not truthfully portraying the state of things in the world, it has been stated on numerous occasions that the Alliance High Elves are fraction of a fraction, too low in number to have a meaningful presence within the Alliance. Their status as an NPC faction...and the corresponding presence of the Blood Elves as a major Horde race due to the Blood Elves possessing the vast majority of the population, the lands of Quel'thalas, the city of Silvermoon, the Sunwell, the Magisters, the Farstriders, the Blood Knights, the Reliquary and the Navy...that is truthfully portraying the world.

Until next Silvermoon warfront. There's a good probability Quel'Thalas' gonna be conquered by the void and high elves, with some Alliance friendly, voidy blood elves helping them. And it will only be a matter of time before the sunwell gets corrupted.

Attempting to pretend the Alliance High Elves are a major Alliance race, that is not a reflection of reality.

But they are. High elves are a major Alliance race since the very beginning the same way Horde blood elves are for the Horde.

In BFA there are currently four Alliance High Elves that have been added, and two of those were nameless NPCs in a warfront.

That's incorrect just as usual.

9 have been added in Stromgarde
4 in Stormwind
1 in Boralus
And 3 in Telogrus Rift.

Not bad for a dying race, 12 years after TBC.

[Garfurion]

While not every Alliance High Elf is going to become a Void Elf, there is a disproportionate impact on Alliance High Elves for every one of their number that converts compared to the impact of a Blood Elf who converts upon the Blood Elf population. The Blood Elves don't have a population issue, they are capable of sustaining losses in war (and defection) and continuing.

High Elves going completely extinct would only increase the strain on Blood Elves to supply the Alliance with new Void Elves.

The 3rd war was in year 20, BFA is year 34 or 35. How many Blood Elves do you think were born in that time period compared to how many Blood Elves were killed in all the wars and the Cataclysm. Elves aren't known to be breeding like rabbits, they are a long lived race.

I don't think even shorted lived races, and thus faster reproducing, like humans and orcs can keep their populations up-to-date with all the wars and fighting going on each expansion.

Assuming that the conversion to being a Blood Elf involves a large population transfer is overreach. It just needs to be credible that sufficient Elves have made the conversion.

According to Caydiem in 2005 there weren't enough High Elves to make the to make them playable. Note that Caydiem also never mentioned that High Elves could reproduce, which they can, so it's wasn't about population potential, but actual population numbers at that time.

According to the Warcraft Encyclopedia after the destruction of Quel'Thalas 90% of the Thalasian Elves on Azeroth were Blood Elves, 10% were High Elves. Of the 90% Blood Elves 15% went to Outland with Kael'thas and only a fraction of those were later reintegrated into Blood Elf society.

So to keep things simple after TBC we had +-80% Blood Elves, 10% lost elves (dead or felbloods) and 10% High Elves (excluding the Alliance Expedition). This is even ignoring all the elves that became wretched after the fall of Quel'Thalas.

So sufficient Elves, should mean more than 10% of the Thalasian Elves after the destruction of Quel'Thalas in the 3rd war according to Caydiem in an official post.

To maintain this 10% (probably at leat 1/8th of the current Blood Elf population), whatever it is in actual numbers, would require a significant number of Blood Elves to be transformed regularly to make up for Void Elf deaths since current High Elf numbers are so low.

The Void Elf population does not need to be equivalent to or even be just a substantial chunk of the Blood Elf population.

It should if we follow the lore and take official Blizzard statements (for example Caydiem's 2005 post) as facts.

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But they are. High elves are a major Alliance race since the very beginning the same way Horde blood elves are for the Horde.

Not in terms of population numbers according to lore or Blizzard statements but they have been featured more prominently than some playable Alliance races.

[Obelisk Kai]

Until next Silvermoon warfront. There's a good probability Quel'Thalas' gonna be conquered by the void and high elves, with some Alliance friendly, voidy blood elves helping them. And it will only be a matter of time before the sunwell gets corrupted.

Silvermoon warfront should not be regarded as real and everything you wrote is just speculation. The only evidence for it was that macro from a few months back that revealed potential warfronts, yet it listed three and not one of them was Darkshore. Given that each warfront is linked to a season and raid, and given that BFA will almost certainly follow a four tier pattern, not all of those warfronts will be making it in as there are a maximum of two slots left. The entire list is therefore untrustworthy and not indicative of future content, with the exception of the barrens which had datamined files found but which could have been scrapped.

But they are. High elves are a major Alliance race since the very beginning the same way Horde blood elves are for the Horde.

Alliance High Elves are not a major Alliance race. They are not playable. They do not have a leader who participates in the highest councils of the Alliance. They do not have a defined territory (a few apartments in Dalaran does not qualify).

Blood Elves are playable. Their leader is regarded as a part of the overall Horde leadership. They control the Kingdom of Quel'thalas.

Stating Alliance High Elves are a major Alliance race is simply wish fulfilment. They are a minor NPC faction.

That's incorrect just as usual.

9 have been added in Stromgarde
4 in Stormwind
1 in Boralus
And 3 in Telogrus Rift.

Not bad for a dying race, 12 years after TBC.

Those in Stormwind and Telrogus rift were added in Legion, and are accompanying Void Elves. The presumption must be they are seeking out the Void Elves and will in time become Void Elves.

There are two in Boralus, the portal keeper for the warfronts and the island expedition one.

As for Stromgarde, there are two minor NPCs who are shielding the airship and do not participate in the battle.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stromgarde_Keep#Alliance_NPCs lists the Alliance NPCs inside Stromgarde when the Alliance has control. The only Alliance High Elf is the portal keeper, whom I counted in Boralus.

Where are the other six in Stromgarde?

Two other Dalaran High Elves have been added to the PTR opening the Dalaran portal, but they are specifically labelled as Kirin Tor Mages I believe and are technically neutral.

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High Elves going completely extinct would only increase the strain on Blood Elves to supply the Alliance with new Void Elves.


The 3rd war was in year 20, BFA is year 34 or 35. How many Blood Elves do you think were born in that time period compared to how many Blood Elves were killed in all the wars and the Cataclysm. Elves aren't known to be breeding like rabbits, they are a long lived race.


I don't think even shorted lived races, and thus faster reproducing, like humans and orcs can keep their populations up-to-date with all the wars and fighting going on each expansion.

That Void Elves can recruit from other thalassian elves is confirmed. But they were also defined as a small, elite force. There are substantially more Void Elves now than there are Alliance High Elves, but this does not mean that there is a huge rush of Blood Elves willing to defect. It merely means that when Blizzard depicts Void Elves in substantial numbers, they have a plausible rationale as to where they came from.

All races are suffering losses, but the Blood Elves are able to keep going and have a substantial civilian population...they can keep going. Alliance High Elves ironically are the biggest victims of your logic. Every loss they suffer is catastrophic to their continued existence as a separate group.

According to Caydiem in 2005 there weren't enough High Elves to make the to make them playable. Note that Caydiem also never mentioned that High Elves could reproduce, which they can, so it's wasn't about population potential, but actual population numbers at that time.

According to the Warcraft Encyclopedia after the destruction of Quel'Thalas 90% of the Thalasian Elves on Azeroth were Blood Elves, 10% were High Elves. Of the 90% Blood Elves 15% went to Outland with Kael'thas and only a fraction of those were later reintegrated into Blood Elf society.

So to keep things simple after TBC we had +-80% Blood Elves, 10% lost elves (dead or felbloods) and 10% High Elves (excluding the Alliance Expedition). This is even ignoring all the elves that became wretched after the fall of Quel'Thalas.

So sufficient Elves, should mean more than 10% of the Thalasian Elves after the destruction of Quel'Thalas in the 3rd war according to Caydiem in an official post.

To maintain this 10% (probably at leat 1/8th of the current Blood Elf population), whatever it is in actual numbers, would require a significant number of Blood Elves to be transformed regularly to make up for Void Elf deaths since current High Elf numbers are so low.

Alliance High Elves were broken into two population centres. Dalaran and Theramore. Theramore has been destroyed, and many died trying to protect it, doubtless including many Alliance High Elves.

Alliance High Elves have been engaged in several military engagements over the years under the auspices of Dalaran. These are losses they cannot replace given their depleted ranks. As for their ability to procreate, Elisande commented on that. They seem to be more open to relationships with Humans and are probably producing a larger than average number of Half Elves.

It should if we follow the lore and take official Blizzard statements (for example Caydiem's 2005 post) as facts.

Which I assume it does. It takes into account that Alliance High Elf numbers have likely dropped a lot further since the 10% figure was given due to their circumstances and constant dying and that Alliance High Elves would find it easier to make contact with the Void Elves for conversion and be more willing to make the leap, given they have already lost everything. All Void Elves have to do to avoid the population issue is have a higher population than Alliance High Elves, which they probably do, and have a means of believably replenishing their numbers. Converting an adult Blood/High Elf is far more effective than raising an elven child over several decades as a replacement.

This is why the population issue deployed against Alliance High Elves does not apply to Void Elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

It's a fair point you omake tbh, and blizzard with its very unique lore, has things set a fixed way.. all this means iiis that htey can get really creative when opeining up more options. If done in a way that fits their lore and story line, the end result could always be even more engagement and fantasy.

Its the same with new race class combos, new races etc, they should give them, but in ways that fit the race even if it means doing an SWTOR style name change.

I agree with all of this as well. Blizzard tends to open up new options over time and done in a way that they fit to their lore and storylines (not always how players want it but that's a different discussion) so it allows them to open up flexibility in a way that fits with their vision of their game.

[delus]

We don't know whether a method for creating void elves has been devised yet. Until it has actually been shown, the I'll go with no. Npc count has never been a reliable metric. And there are absolutely blood elves who would turn their backs on the horde for power. Silvermoon absolutely might end up seeing substantial losses as the void elves grow in number.

[Obelisk Kai]

We don't know whether a method for creating void elves has been devised yet. Until it has actually been shown, the I'll go with no. Npc count has never been a reliable metric. And there are absolutely blood elves who would turn their backs on the horde for power. Silvermoon absolutely might end up seeing substantial losses as the void elves grow in number.

I have demonstrated three points in favour of Void Elves being able to convert others.

1.) Word of God.

Moorgard was asked point blank where are the numbers for Void Elves coming from. He responded that Elves who heard about them are seeking them out to see if they can wield that power. The context of the question and the answer cannot be separated and seems fairly self-explanatory. Or are you arguing that when asked where Void Elf numbers are coming from, he segued onto a completely different topic about other Elves showing up to hang out in Tel'rogus.

2.) Precedent in game.

We have seen the Void Elves turn ordinary Ravasaurs into Void Ravasaurs, demonstrating that they can infuse living beings with void energy. They did not turn them into ethereal Ravasaurs, and converting them into ethereals was the original intent of the Nexus Prince. This demonstrates that the Void Elves are capable of replicating the transformative process. If they can do it on Ravasaurs, why not do it on other Elves to make more Void Elves.

3.) The smell test.

While NPC count is not a reliable metric, there have been plenty more Void Elves shown over the course of BFA than there have been corresponding Alliance High Elves. Far more. Multiple named NPCs, multiple generic NPCs who are used as cannon fodder. There were enough Void Elves that a substantial number was sent on a suicide mission, i.e. a mission they were not expected to return from, against the Horde and yet they still remain a viable part of the Alliance. If they feel more numerous than Alliance High Elves in the game world, they probably are.

Pro High Elfers consistently complain that the lore justification for no Alliance High Elves, that of a too low population, is ridiculous and non-applicable because they point at other groups they believe to have similar sized populations. And Void Elves are consistently singled out on this point as a comparison. So if we have a situation where only a small group of Elves was turned into Void Elves, yet the Void Elf population appears to be larger than a small group, the logical resolution of this seeming paradox is that the initial small group expanded. Which is what Moorgard said.

The primary reason this conclusion is resisted in this topic is not because it is illogical or unsupported by evidence, but because it robs the pro High Elf community of a cherished defence against the population argument, which is the lore (not gameplay) rationale as to why they aren't playable. If Void Elves can recruit other Elves into being Void Elves, then all Blizzard has to say to explain Void Elf numbers is that a couple of more joined since the last group was wiped out. You simply cannot do that with Alliance High Elves.

Let's turn this around. There is enough evidence out there that shows Void Elves can convert other Elves into Void Elves. Can anyone argue why this isn't the case?

[delus]

I have demonstrated three points in favour of Void Elves being able to convert others.

No, you haven't demonstrated anything.

“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”

All he said was elves who are interested in what the void elves could offer would have reason to join them. That is literally all he said. He didn't say how or when they would replicate the process. Until we see some proof that void elves extend beyond umbric's group, there is no reason to believe they are creating more of their kind. I hope we actually see the second generation of void elves through questing.

[elbleuet]

Silvermoon warfront should not be regarded as real and everything you wrote is just speculation. The only evidence for it was that macro from a few months back that revealed potential warfronts, yet it listed three and not one of them was Darkshore. Given that each warfront is linked to a season and raid, and given that BFA will almost certainly follow a four tier pattern, not all of those warfronts will be making it in as there are a maximum of two slots left. The entire list is therefore untrustworthy and not indicative of future content, with the exception of the barrens which had datamined files found but which could have been scrapped

I entirely agree with you, dear Obelisk Kai. But the day it turns out to be real - if it does - I will be looking at your comments with great attention

Stating Alliance High Elves are a major Alliance race is simply wish fulfilment. They are a minor NPC faction.

Alliance High Elves are not a major Alliance race. They are not playable. They do not have a leader who participates in the highest councils of the Alliance. They do not have a defined territory (a few apartments in Dalaran does not qualify).

They are. Alliance pandarens are playable, yet they have 0 influence within the Alliance leadership and did nothing for the Alliance.
Your argument is completely pointless. The High elves brought Dalaran to the Alliance. They aided the Alliance during the war against the Lich King. Vereesa Windurnner later accompanied Varian in Orgrimmar. She later aided Jaina on the Island of Thunder. They are now aiding the Alliance in Stromgarde.
What have the Alliance pandarens done for the Alliance ?

Blood Elves are playable. Their leader is regarded as a part of the overall Horde leadership. They control the Kingdom of Quel'thalas.

For now

Those in Stormwind and Telrogus rift were added in Legion, and are accompanying Void Elves. The presumption must be they are seeking out the Void Elves and will in time become Void Elves.

This is speculation. They're just High elves manipulating the void.

As for Stromgarde, there are two minor NPCs who are shielding the airship and do not participate in the battle.

If I recall, they're actually 6 on that airship.

Two other Dalaran High Elves have been added to the PTR opening the Dalaran portal, but they are specifically labelled as Kirin Tor Mages I believe and are technically neutral.

No. They're Silver Covenant mages, tagged Alliance.

All races are suffering losses, but the Blood Elves are able to keep going and have a substantial civilian population...they can keep going. Alliance High Elves ironically are the biggest victims of your logic. Every loss they suffer is catastrophic to their continued existence as a separate group.

This argument is 12 years old.
Yet the High elves are still there, and will still be because Blizzard decided so, even with the release of the void elves.

[Garfurion]

Which I assume it does.

I'm glad you agree but I'm not sure if you just misunderstood or didn't understand how the population argument regarding High Elves back in 2005, affect the population argument regarding Void Elves now.

Fact 1: Azeroth year 20: Fall of Quel'Thalas. Of the remaining Thalasian Elves 10% are High Elves.
Fact 2: Azeroth year 25: World of Warcraft
Fact 3: There is nothing that would explain or indicate a significant drop in High Elf population size between year 20 and year 25.
Fact 4: in 2005 (during Vanilla WoW, so year 25) Caydiem stated there were not enough High Elves for them to be playable.

Thus: For a race to be potentially playable it's population number must exceed 10% of the Thalasian Elves that survived the Fall of Quel'Thalas.

This is why the population issue deployed against Alliance High Elves does not apply to Void Elves.

Caydiem's statement was made in in relation to population sizes of Gnomes, High Elves and Blood Elves and therefore applies to all races, including Void Elves.

Therefore the current Void Elf population must exceed the 10% of Thalasian Elves that survived the Fall of Quel'Thalas in order to meet Caydiem's population size requirement.

That Void Elves were called a crack squad doesn't matter in this regard since it doesn't invalidate Caydiem's population size statement. Based on lore sources the number of High Elves after the fall of Quel'Thalas could have been as low as 1481 so the Void Elf population size could be as low as 1500 which in WoW terms could be a squad.

Given the probably very small current population size of High Elves, that means that the majority of Void Elves must be former Blood Elves and that approximately 1/8th of all pre-BFA Blood Elves needs to be transformed to reach this number of Void Elves since Blood, High and Void Elf population sizes are linked.

[Obelisk Kai]

No, you haven't demonstrated anything.

“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”

All he said was elves who are interested in what the void elves could offer would have reason to join them. That is literally all he said. He didn't say how or when they would replicate the process. Until we see some proof that void elves extend beyond umbric's group, there is no reason to believe they are creating more of their kind. I hope we actually see the second generation of void elves through questing.

One of the things I hate about this topic is people trying to debate using information they have taken out of context. Here is a classic example of that.

When I quoted the interview to make my point, I specifically included the question and the answer.

The question set the context of the response.

The question was, why are there are so many Void Elves? Or, to use their own words " If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?"

and the response was

"“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest."

In your response you deliberately ignore the question and focus entirely on interpreting the answer. Here is the thing, you cannot interpret the answer by ignoring the context set by the question.

He did not answer a question about Void Elf numbers by moving onto a completely unrelated topic.

I entirely agree with you, dear Obelisk Kai. But the day it turns out to be real - if it does - I will be looking at your comments with great attention

As if on cue, Ion has announced that there is to be no new warfront in 8.2 and that the Barrens warfront was an early prototype they scrapped entirely. I guess the 8.2 world boss will dwell in Nazjatar and be a more traditional foe or foes.

This leaves room for only a single warfront in the 8.3 cycle and that will likely depend on heroic warfronts being a success, else it would not surprise me if they simply let the system go and pretend it never happened. I have no doubt warfronts were planned for each patch cycle. But I am unsurprised they may have drastically scaled back their ambitions with the system following it's poor reception.

They are. Alliance pandarens are playable, yet they have 0 influence within the Alliance leadership and did nothing for the Alliance.
Your argument is completely pointless. The High elves brought Dalaran to the Alliance. They aided the Alliance during the war against the Lich King. Vereesa Windurnner later accompanied Varian in Orgrimmar. She later aided Jaina on the Island of Thunder. They are now aiding the Alliance in Stromgarde.
What have the Alliance pandarens done for the Alliance ?

No, Jaina brought Dalaran into the Alliance. I know this because she was the leader of the Dalaran at the time and Varian sent Anduin to talk to her, not Veressa, prior to the purge. After the purge it was Jaina, ruler of Dalaran, who informed Varian Dalaran was joining the Alliance, not Veressa. Do not ascribe to the Alliance High Elves something that is not their's, just to inflate their role within the Alliance.

The Alliance High Elves of the Silver Covenant aided Jaina on the Isle of Thunder. Of course they did. The Silver Covenant is a militia bound to Dalaran. That is why they accompanied the faction known as the Kirin Tor Offensive...not the Silver Covenant Offensive. Just as the Silver Covenant accompanied Khadgar and other Kirin Tor forces to Suramar.

As for Alliance Pandaren, the Pandaren are in a weird spot because of their neutrality, which really limited their story to Pandaria. Whilst their race is one of the more populous on Azeroth, the Tushui represents a small group who serve the Alliance, yet who have limitless access to their entire race for new recruits. Whilst there do seem to be parallels between the Tushui and the Alliance High Elves, the difference between the Tushui and the Alliance High Elves of course is that the Tushui can always go and proselytise other Pandaren to join them from the substantial Pandaren populations in Pandaria and the wandering isle, and that Aysa is beholden to nobody but the Alliance King (and is a recognised racial leader) whereas Veressa is pledged to the service of the Kirin Tor, who are technically neutral.
Remember, in the letter of the law, the Silver Covenant is also technically neutral and not a part of the Alliance because they serve that same Kirin Tor.

For now

Yeah, if Warfronts are being scaled back so heavily it's quite likely such a major plot development wouldn't be anchored to one.

This is speculation. They're just High elves manipulating the void.

Read my response to Delus. It is silly to insist that when asked why Void Elves have such numbers, and getting the response other Elves are seeking them out after the initial transformation, that Moorgard did not mean what he obviously meant. You don't want it to be the case because you wish to preserve the idea that if Void Elves with low numbers are a viable allied race, then Alliance High Elves shouldn't be subject to the population argument. Bias is distorting rationality in other words, the conclusion is too uncomfortable for you to accept.

This is standard pro High Elf tactic. Hear an answer you don't like, attempt to interpret and reinterpret what was said until in your mind he didn't say what he clearly said and the response is non threatening.

This was done with Caydiem. This was done with the Warcraft Encyclopedia. This was done with Ion. Pure denial.

At least it's consistent.

If I recall, they're actually 6 on that airship.

I counted two when I last did the Arathi warfront as Alliance. Which was a few weeks ago. They are channeling the spell to maintain the initial shield.

No. They're Silver Covenant mages, tagged Alliance.

Which is a conceit. The Silver Covenant is technically neutral as I said, but everyone knows they aren't in reality. That is why the Silver Covenant mages on the airship are wearing 7th Legion armor I believe.

This argument is 12 years old.

Most people would have gotten the hint by now.

Yet the High elves are still there, and will still be because Blizzard decided so, even with the release of the void elves.

They're a story prop. Horde has Undead Elves and they are still around too. I don't imagine they are going to be made playable any time soon now that we are at peak elf. Why is Blizzard obligated to dispose of something they use for an occasional story just because they aren't playable. On Alliance that is, as stated everywhere else the High Elf race is playable on Horde.

I'm glad you agree but I'm not sure if you just misunderstood or didn't understand how the population argument regarding High Elves back in 2005, affect the population argument regarding Void Elves now.

Fact 1: Azeroth year 20: Fall of Quel'Thalas. Of the remaining Thalasian Elves 10% are High Elves.
Fact 2: Azeroth year 25: World of Warcraft
Fact 3: There is nothing that would explain or indicate a significant drop in High Elf population size between year 20 and year 25.
Fact 4: in 2005 (during Vanilla WoW, so year 25) Caydiem stated there were not enough High Elves for them to be playable.

Thus: For a race to be potentially playable it's population number must exceed 10% of the Thalasian Elves that survived the Fall of Quel'Thalas.

Caydiem's statement was made in in relation to population sizes of Gnomes, High Elves and Blood Elves and therefore applies to all races, including Void Elves.

Therefore the current Void Elf population must exceed the 10% of Thalasian Elves that survived the Fall of Quel'Thalas in order to meet Caydiem's population size requirement.


That Void Elves were called a crack squad doesn't matter in this regard since it doesn't invalidate Caydiem's population size statement. Based on lore sources the number of High Elves after the fall of Quel'Thalas could have been as low as 1481 so the Void Elf population size could be as low as 1500 which in WoW terms could be a squad.

I would argue Void Elves and Lightforged Draenei have an out to this. Both can recruit from other races, making new Void Elves and new Lightforged Draenei. This is why I consistently argue that the population issue does not apply to Void Elves as it does to Alliance High Elves. They can recruit fully adult members from an existing race. The potential Void Elf population includes every Thalassian Elf currently living. Now, clearly they are nowhere near that number and Blood Elves will remain the overwhelming majority of Thalassians in the game world. But they have the ability to make new Void Elves, which lorewise functions as an explanation as to why they have a viable population.

I am a great defender of Caydiem's comments, I used them as the original rejection of Alliance High Elves as a playable race as it offers the lore (not the gameplay) rationale for their rejection. But every race at the time was unlike the Void Elves and the LF Draenei, they reproduced normally (well, except the Forsaken but they had a large enough population at the time). LF Draenei and Void Elves can recruit though.

Given the probably very small current population size of High Elves, that means that the majority of Void Elves must be former Blood Elves and that approximately 1/8th of all pre-BFA Blood Elves needs to be transformed to reach this number of Void Elves since Blood, High and Void Elf population sizes are linked.

I have no doubt that the current population size of Alliance High Elves is very small now, and a lot smaller than what it was when Caydiem made the statement. But I stand by argument that the population argument does not apply to Void Elves and LF Draenei. Every other race in the game? Yes. Mecha Gnomes and Vulpera, the rumored Allied races? Definitely should have substantial populations for us to believe they are viable. But Void Elves and LF Draenei by their unique circumstances are not bound by that. For every one we kill, they could conceivably get another. For every Alliance High Elf lost though, the group moves one step closer to complete destruction.

[Xel3 Thunder]

Suicide missions do tend to lower populations. Yet that the Void Elves were able to spare those individuals and still remain a strong, viable part of the Alliance speaks to the fact that they now outnumber Alliance High Elves and are capable of carrying their own weight. That is why I went out of my way to mention the suicide mission, the Void Elves are capable of actions that would probably bring Alliance High Elves to an end.

Excuse me, but Void Elves outnumbering High Elves? Where is the evidence for this?

You do realise that while High Elves have a population of over 1000, and around 1/8 the amount of blood elves, void elves have a population in the tens?

[Obelisk Kai]

Excuse me, but Void Elves outnumbering High Elves? Where is the evidence for this?

You do realise that while High Elves have a population of over 1000, and around 1/8 the amount of blood elves, void elves have a population in the tens?

If you took the time to read the entirety of the debate in the past few days, you would see it hinges around one question. Can Void Elves turn other Elves into Void Elves?

Based on what Moorgard said in the polygon interview, the fact that void elves are infusing ravasaurs with void energy during the invasion (showing they can infuse other beings with void energy) and the fact there are clearly more Void Elves around than were present in the initial scenario it is clear that, yes, Void Elves at this point very likely outnumber Alliance High Elves.

Void Elves merely have to recruit from Blood Elves seeking power or Alliance High Elves who wish to use the Void to increase their numbers. Alliance High Elves on the other hand have staggered from disaster to disaster in the past decade, losing people at Theramore, sustaining losses during the purge and the isle of the thunder and in Suramar. We have been repeatedly told that their population is low.

What evidence is there for a large Alliance High Elf population?

Pro High Elfers quote the RPG sometimes which lists thousands of Alliance High Elves in Stormwind. That is non canon and obviously not true as there are barely any Alliance High Elves in Stormwind.

Or are you going to say the civilian population of Dalaran was evacuated, including all their High Elves...neglecting the fact Kael'thas had left the city a few days prior to it's fall and likely took the bulk of the High Elves of Dalaran with him. We know this is true because they went back to Dalaran as the Sunreavers, acknowledged by Jaina herself to be the group of Elves who taught Humanity magic.

Alliance High Elves are at a really, really low level of population. This has been mentioned so many times by blizzard in so many forums that the pro High Elf side doesn't try and refute it, you simply argue it doesn't matter. As Blizzard are the ones who keep bringing it up when Alliance High Elves are mentioned though, it really, really does.

If Void Elves can turn all other Elves into Void Elves, and everything including word of god from a Blizzard dev says they can, then they can easily end up outnumbering Alliance High Elves as not only can they grow much faster, but any Alliance High Elf who becomes a Void Elf means one less Alliance High Elf and one more Void Elf.

So, yeah.

Void Elves outnumber Alliance High Elves.

[delus]

One of the things I hate about this topic is people trying to debate using information they have taken out of context. Here is a classic example of that.

When I quoted the interview to make my point, I specifically included the question and the answer.

The question set the context of the response.

The question was, why are there are so many Void Elves? Or, to use their own words " If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?"

and the response was

"“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest."

In your response you deliberately ignore the question and focus entirely on interpreting the answer. Here is the thing, you cannot interpret the answer by ignoring the context set by the question.

He did not answer a question about Void Elf numbers by moving onto a completely unrelated topic.




As if on cue, Ion has announced that there is to be no new warfront in 8.2 and that the Barrens warfront was an early prototype they scrapped entirely. I guess the 8.2 world boss will dwell in Nazjatar and be a more traditional foe or foes.

This leaves room for only a single warfront in the 8.3 cycle and that will likely depend on heroic warfronts being a success, else it would not surprise me if they simply let the system go and pretend it never happened. I have no doubt warfronts were planned for each patch cycle. But I am unsurprised they may have drastically scaled back their ambitions with the system following it's poor reception.





No, Jaina brought Dalaran into the Alliance. I know this because she was the leader of the Dalaran at the time and Varian sent Anduin to talk to her, not Veressa, prior to the purge. After the purge it was Jaina, ruler of Dalaran, who informed Varian Dalaran was joining the Alliance, not Veressa. Do not ascribe to the Alliance High Elves something that is not their's, just to inflate their role within the Alliance.

The Alliance High Elves of the Silver Covenant aided Jaina on the Isle of Thunder. Of course they did. The Silver Covenant is a militia bound to Dalaran. That is why they accompanied the faction known as the Kirin Tor Offensive...not the Silver Covenant Offensive. Just as the Silver Covenant accompanied Khadgar and other Kirin Tor forces to Suramar.

As for Alliance Pandaren, the Pandaren are in a weird spot because of their neutrality, which really limited their story to Pandaria. Whilst their race is one of the more populous on Azeroth, the Tushui represents a small group who serve the Alliance, yet who have limitless access to their entire race for new recruits. Whilst there do seem to be parallels between the Tushui and the Alliance High Elves, the difference between the Tushui and the Alliance High Elves of course is that the Tushui can always go and proselytise other Pandaren to join them from the substantial Pandaren populations in Pandaria and the wandering isle, and that Aysa is beholden to nobody but the Alliance King (and is a recognised racial leader) whereas Veressa is pledged to the service of the Kirin Tor, who are technically neutral.
Remember, in the letter of the law, the Silver Covenant is also technically neutral and not a part of the Alliance because they serve that same Kirin Tor.





Yeah, if Warfronts are being scaled back so heavily it's quite likely such a major plot development wouldn't be anchored to one.



Read my response to Delus. It is silly to insist that when asked why Void Elves have such numbers, and getting the response other Elves are seeking them out after the initial transformation, that Moorgard did not mean what he obviously meant. You don't want it to be the case because you wish to preserve the idea that if Void Elves with low numbers are a viable allied race, then Alliance High Elves shouldn't be subject to the population argument. Bias is distorting rationality in other words, the conclusion is too uncomfortable for you to accept.

This is standard pro High Elf tactic. Hear an answer you don't like, attempt to interpret and reinterpret what was said until in your mind he didn't say what he clearly said and the response is non threatening.

This was done with Caydiem. This was done with the Warcraft Encyclopedia. This was done with Ion. Pure denial.

At least it's consistent.






I counted two when I last did the Arathi warfront as Alliance. Which was a few weeks ago. They are channeling the spell to maintain the initial shield.





Which is a conceit. The Silver Covenant is technically neutral as I said, but everyone knows they aren't in reality. That is why the Silver Covenant mages on the airship are wearing 7th Legion armor I believe.



Most people would have gotten the hint by now.



They're a story prop. Horde has Undead Elves and they are still around too. I don't imagine they are going to be made playable any time soon now that we are at peak elf. Why is Blizzard obligated to dispose of something they use for an occasional story just because they aren't playable. On Alliance that is, as stated everywhere else the High Elf race is playable on Horde.



I would argue Void Elves and Lightforged Draenei have an out to this. Both can recruit from other races, making new Void Elves and new Lightforged Draenei. This is why I consistently argue that the population issue does not apply to Void Elves as it does to Alliance High Elves. They can recruit fully adult members from an existing race. The potential Void Elf population includes every Thalassian Elf currently living. Now, clearly they are nowhere near that number and Blood Elves will remain the overwhelming majority of Thalassians in the game world. But they have the ability to make new Void Elves, which lorewise functions as an explanation as to why they have a viable population.

I am a great defender of Caydiem's comments, I used them as the original rejection of Alliance High Elves as a playable race as it offers the lore (not the gameplay) rationale for their rejection. But every race at the time was unlike the Void Elves and the LF Draenei, they reproduced normally (well, except the Forsaken but they had a large enough population at the time). LF Draenei and Void Elves can recruit though.





I have no doubt that the current population size of Alliance High Elves is very small now, and a lot smaller than what it was when Caydiem made the statement. But I stand by argument that the population argument does not apply to Void Elves and LF Draenei. Every other race in the game? Yes. Mecha Gnomes and Vulpera, the rumored Allied races? Definitely should have substantial populations for us to believe they are viable. But Void Elves and LF Draenei by their unique circumstances are not bound by that. For every one we kill, they could conceivably get another. For every Alliance High Elf lost though, the group moves one step closer to complete destruction.

You have taken the information out of context. He never states that this is happening currently in the story.

[Obelisk Kai]

You have taken the information out of context. He never states that this is happening currently in the story.

I have not taken the information out of context. I have provided both question and answer in my response, showing that the question (where are void elf numbers coming from?) has an answer (other elves are finding out about them and joining them).

This is the only interpretation of what he is saying once you include the question. As I have stated before, the only reason people can have to resist this interpretation...the only interpretation... is that it validates the population argument as applying solely to Alliance High Elves. Rejecting a truth because of the implications it has for something else isn't a credible position.

[elbleuet]

the fact that void elves are infusing ravasaurs with void energy during the invasion (showing they can infuse other beings with void energy)

They're not "infusing". They're just raising dead ravasaurs. Try being precise next time.

Void Elves merely have to recruit from Blood Elves seeking power or Alliance High Elves who wish to use the Void to increase their numbers. Alliance High Elves on the other hand have staggered from disaster to disaster in the past decade, losing people at Theramore, sustaining losses during the purge and the isle of the thunder and in Suramar. We have been repeatedly told that their population is low.

Yet they're still all over the place. In Stormwind, Dalaran, Stromgarde, Boralus, the Isle of Thunder, in Telogrus Rift... even if that hurts you.

They won't disappear anytime soon just because you hate them Obelisk Kai...

High elves are an Alliance race since the beginning and is introduced in every expansion even after the addition of blood and void elves.
Can you just enjoy your Horde Blood elves and let this thread for those who love that race instead of poisonning it every day seriously?