Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Same question, albeit reversed - do you really think it plausible that *none* of the larger Kul Tirans were present among the ranks of those in Daelin's army, or as part of the expeditionary force, or later on? I don't think, and more think of it as a soft retcon to their people to establish further differentiation. The same could easily be done with the exiled High Elves of Quel'Thalas (and it needn't even be as evident, as per the Nightborne/Void Elf differentiation).

Occam's razor applies. Yes, I do think it is plausible that none of the larger Kul Tirans were present among the ranks of those in Daelin's army because we didn't encounter any. As we didn't encounter them, and as we know they exist, the only explanation is that they weren't there. That is an explanation that does not require a retcon. Or if you want a darker explanation, the stranded and starving Kul Tiran expeditionary force, besieged in the Orc homeland and with low supplies, started with the biggest among them first in an attempt to survive.

As for such a soft retcon being done with Alliance High Elves, I disagree. Even the Kul Tirans are a mixture of the two types, standard Human and bulky Human. They are all still Kul Tiran, all loyal to Boralus. The point of differentiation between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves was philosophical, over the method of consuming arcane energies from living beings. It was not physical. As a result, the corollary of your suggestion is that everyone who looked different from the standard Elves also, through sheer coincidence, arrived at the same opinion regarding the morality of consuming arcane energies and were exiled. Now that is something I do genuinely find implausible, if there were a naturally occurring physical variant of thalassian elves then I would suggest they would divide along the same 90%-10% split that originally occurred among all thalassian elves and that most elves of this variant would still be Blood Elves and therefore an option for Horde players.

This is the point in which this particular argument curls in upon itself and becomes circular as the entire point of a different physical build defining Alliance High Elves would be to force a measure of differentiation between them and existing elves. As such differentiation cannot logically be excluded from being available to the Blood Elves, the entire rationale for creating such a difference vanishes.

Actually we see a few examples of the "thin" models used in Stormwind as of BfA - one of the guards in Stormwind's palace area actually uses one of the altered models. I think it's likely that the "thin" and "large" alternate models aren't necessarily tied to Kul Tiras specifically, but are still used for differentiation for the Kul Tiran Allied Race.

The thin model is explainable as just being naturally thin. There remains a debate regarding the Kul Tirans, it could be as you describe, just how they differentiate Kul Tirans, but the other plausible options have yet to be debunked. Regardless, the idea that what was done with Kul Tirans could be done with Alliance High Elves collapses under even the most meagre scrutiny. If you wanted to argue for a type of thalassian elf with a different model, the Half Elf route is the way to go. Plausible explanation for why they have a different model, would still have long ears and blue eyes (elf head, human body), would still be of thalassian culture and as Half Elves, NOT High Elves, they would not undermine the integrity of the Horde faction or the identity of the Blood Elves. Everything that is apparently wanted by the pro High Elf community with the exception of the name and that they are not fully elves. Of course, the Half Elf suggestion gets little traction despite that which is a pity.

I think the presence of the other body types beyond Kul Tiras makes this unlikely, albeit still possible. The mingling of additional Vrykul blood to the standard Human stock may have increased the prevalence of larger and more muscular builds, but Vrykul "throwbacks" might still be possible even among the Humans not native to Kul Tiras.

If the Vry'kul theory is true, then yes it could. But the predominance of the build among Kul Tirans seems to suggest it was something unique on the islands that contributed to the development of this variant.

Regardless of how you interpret their differentiation, how exactly are they not part of a precedent? Being subject to debate doesn't remove them from being part and parcel of precedence.

Because, as described above, the real litmus test of differentiation is for Alliance High Elves specifically is 'can they be differentiated from Blood Elves in a way that should not be available to Blood Elf players?'. Hypothetically, we could encounter a lost tribe of thalssian elves whose isolation has caused them to become considerably taller and much more muscular than a standard thalassian elf. As they would not be encumbered by our prior knowledge of them, such a thing would be acceptable using the Kul Tiran precedent. But we know where Alliance High Elves come from, they are political exiles from Silvermoon. As they come from Silvermoon, it is highly implausible to argue that there was a one to one correlation between the political/philosophical opinion that led to their exile and this hypothetical physical differentiation that could retroactively be applied to all Alliance High Elves and not be available to Blood Elves. This is the same rationale I used when some suggested that Alliance High Elves could be differentiated by giving them darker skin colours than the Blood Elves in that I argued that such skin colours would also need to be available to Blood Elves...and that there were extremly troubling connotations of the suggestion that the fair skinned Blood Elves happened to exile everyone with darker skins from Silvermoon for being 'troublesome'.

I would agree if you were talking making them very physiologically different like the Kul Tirans, but I don't think that's necessary. Adding new eye-glows, ostentatious heraldry, tattoos, and/or minor physiological difference (slightly different ears, slight changes to build, etc. etc.) would be enough and easily explainable under the existing lore.

No, I don't think it would be enough. Again, the litmus test for true differentiation is that the proposed feature which differentiates them cannot be replicated by the parent race. Eye colour is mutable, blue eyes for Blood Elves are a plausible request we hope to see realised with advanced character customizations. The tattoos that were common in Warcraft 2 Elven artwork are the shared heritage of both groups and there is no reason Blood Elves couldn't have them either and the minor physiological differences...that's the natural variations between individuals of a group rather than differences between a group. Some Elves have longer ears, some have shorter, some are a little fatter, some are a little thinner, we have to suspend our disbelief sometimes in game when we accept that every member of a race displayed to us has the exact same build, exact same height, exact same finger size etc. That's a by-product of the game engine. As such, the minor physiological differences are encompassed within the entire race and are not a point of differentiation.

Again, the parity argument remains strong - but I think the exiled High Elves have unique enough intrinsic lore such that a possible additional as a playable race would not undermine the Blood Elven narrative. In many senses this a YMMV type of argument. Blizzard's original rejection is an argument to authority that does not by default make them right in the final accounting (and Blizzard has said it would or would not do many things only to eventually do the opposite of what had been stated).

Saying that they might eventually change their minds has never struck me as a particularly good argument, because that is implicit in everything we discuss. Of course they can change their minds, should we not debate because of that fact? Or if someone quotes a developer saying something we don't like, are we able to instantly devalue it by saying 'well they can change their minds'? All we have to go on is what they tell us, the truth of the now. Maybe the truth will be different this time next year, that is their perogative as the creator. But if debate is to function on these forums, we cannot reach beyond what they tell us to 'well they may change their minds' because what is anyone to supposed to come back with to that? That is the moment debate ends.

As for this being an argument to authority, yes it is, but that is not a fallacy. An argument to authority is a fallacy because it presumes the authority cited is themselves correct, this only works in real world situations where truth is objective and that authority can be wrong. WoW is a work of fiction, the truth is subjective to the creators but objective to those of us outside the creative process. You cannot prove a creator wrong on a work of fiction, as if you ever managed to do so they could simply adjust their creation towards the truth as they see it.

At the moment, word of God is that Blood Elves are the High Elves of the franchise and that Alliance High Elves would damage faction diversity. If they ever change that, that does not retro-actively make those who quote that line wrong, as they were correct at the time they quoted it.

Unfortunately, I also have to disagree that playable Alliance High Elves would not undermine the Blood Elven narrative. The key point of the pro High Elf community is that the Alliance High Elves are the true High Elves of the franchise, often citing a continuous relationship with the Alliance going back to Warcraft 2. Pointing out that that during the Second War the High Elves were the last to join the Alliance, that they had to be compelled to join under ancient blood oath, that they only sent a token force initially, that the only fully participated when their own lands were threatened and that they were the very first to leave the Alliance once the threat had passed shows the relationship that actually existed in lore does not quite the match the vision many of that community still have of the High Elves place within the Alliance. Should Alliance High Elves become playable, they would instantly push their vision upon the rest of us, that the true Alliance of Warcraft 2 had been restored, that an 'iconic' Alliance race is back within the Alliance and this narrative would, by necessity, 'other' the Blood Elves, damaging their narrative and reducing them to yet another bunch of nasty elves fighting for the bad guys. There is no way the Blood Elf narrative cannot be damaged by playable Alliance High Elves.
Which is to say nothing of the damage they would do the Void Elf narrative, Void Elves have clearly been designed as the new foil to the light orientated Blood Elves, yet in future the narrative dichotomy between the two groups would be upset to force in Alliance High Elves. Given that the Alliance High Elves are as connected to the light as any other Blood Elf through the Sunwell they both feed on, this would pervert and muddy what should be a clear dividing line...Horde and Light versus Alliance and Void...and turns into something less satisfying. Sometimes extra complexity does not help, particularly the extraneous complexity this suggestion entails in the Void Elf-Blood Elf relationship.

An even better argument for excluding the exiled High Elves would be because the Void Elves and exiled High Elves actually share a common story element - both groups are exiles from the larger Sin'dorei, the Void Elves due to the indulgence in the study of the Void and the High Elves due to their refusal to adopt the Mana Tapping practice to deal with their racial Arcane addition and for being political agitators. Of course, this opens the question as to why a new race was cultivated with a story-arc that so clearly overlaps that of an existing race or group? While I don't mind the Void Elves as an inclusion myself, I think it's easy to see why some people might feel them an unnecessary inclusion given the retread of an existing story with only minor changes.

The answer I believe lies in the purpose of the Void Elves, the gameplay purpose. To provide clearly delineated alternative from the Blood Elves for Alliance players.

Difficult to say, really. I don't mind either way, myself; it would boil down as to whether people want the option for RP purposes or if they actually want exiled High Elf representation in the game narrative itself.

If they want Alliance High Elf representation within the game for players, the simplest thing they can do is make explicit that Void Elves can recruit and remove any lingering doubt. The very moment there is an in game representation, or something written in a short story or novel, of a thalassian elf being changed into a Void Elf, the lore objection to Void Elves from the pro High Elf community will become unsustainable.

Which of course will change nothing as I still believe the primary objection is to the fact that the Void Elves are blue/purple but it would be interesting to see how pro High Elf commentators adjust their arguments after receiving cast iron proof. Although given they dispute the senior narrative lead saying Void Elves can turn others I half suspect they try and rationalise it away as not counting for some reason.

Or Hazzikostas misspoke, or he wasn't factoring the Void Elven population issue into consideration but simply repeating the prior rationale. Without some form of canon evidence as to the Void Elven population it's not a logical conclusion, it's just a speculative one (which doesn't appear to fit the facts as we know them).

We cannot reject developer commentary simply because we find it inconvenient to our case. We can interrogate it, sure and sometimes they do misspeak, but I don't think Ion did on this occasion. Because he didn't say this once. He said it twice, six months apart.

The two interviews Ion Hazzikostas did which contained his answers on Alliance High Elves were the Jessie Cox 2017 interview at Blizzcon. The format was ad hoc, with Jessie reading off questions from his community to Ion so Ion wouldn't have been able to prepare for the questions, answering them as they came.

Jessie Cox: Are there any major High Elf hubs left where you could be like 'of course there are adventurers willing to come from there, I don't think so.'

Ion(Shaking his head): I don't think so

Jessie Cox: Yeah, so I don't know where they'd come from to begin with.

Ion: They've basically been assimilated into other cultures.

Which actually matches the reality of the game. There are no major High Elf hubs in the game. Dalaran is a human city. It is hosting the Silver Covenant militia. The Silver Covenant, which everyone agrees is actually the most substantial High Elven group left, were mocked by Elisande for 'diluting their bloodlines' i.e. their close relationships with Humans rather than other Elves were leading them to have Half Elven children. The Silver Covenant, living in a human city, following human orders, prioritising Human interests over their own people, they've been assimilated ( and are not creating their own culture with tattoos or different hairstyles for example).

The Allerian Stronghold, I have been there recently as it came up in discussion. There are a handful of Alliance High Elves. It's a human settlement, inhabited by mostly Humans, whose Elven inhabitants are some of the few rangers who defied their King's orders and accompanied the Alliance to Draenor during the events of Beyond the Dark Portal. But it is not an elven settlement, nor is it a bastion of high elven civilization. It's a miserable, foreboding place a group of isolated soliders established in a hostile, alien world as they clung on for dear life in the hopes that one day, the portal would re-open and they would go home. Because Outland is frozen in time we can't confirm this, but I figure most of the people who lived in Allerian Stronghold circa TBC likely went back home to Azeroth again following Illidan's defeat.

And Quel'danil is an isolated hut, a nice hut as huts goes but still a hut which exists on Wildhammer lands and is full of Draenei and Dwarves. They aren't a culture of their own, they're outdoorsy Farstriders sticking two fingers up at the regimé in Silvermoon.

Now, you could argue he misspoke here despite the fact his comments match the game world as is (and match the comments from the still canon warcraft encyclopedia that 'High elves do not gather in any significant numbers, nor do they act as a coordinated whole. They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals. Indeed, modern high elves cannot even truly be said to have a culture--only a past filled with glory and regret.') because it was an ad hoc interview. But he then went and essentially repeated himself in the April 2018 Q and A

Ion: '...but also there isn't a clear example of who or what High Elves are as a larger group that still remains in Azeroth...they're not out there in the same way'

People of course like to argue that. They cite the Silver Covenant, they cite Allerian Stronghold, they cite Quel'Danil. Yet Ion made essentially the same points six months apart, and while he could have potentially misspoken on the first interview, the idea that he did so again in the second when he would have known in advance what the questions were seems a bit far-fetched. So how do you rationalise the Silver Covenant, Quel'Danil and Allerian Stronghold with these comments? Simple.
They aren't large groups who are out in the world....they are small, fragmented, assimilated and degrading.

So, Void Elves, who ARE a small, crack squad as another developer defined them as, are acceptable whereas Alliance High Elves are not. Which brings me back to the three possibilities.

Possibility #1 is unproven and unprovable - while we know what we're shown in-game is subject to an increased ratio within the lore itself, it is still a ratio that is more or less universal. The High Elves, at least calculation, number somewhere around 1,500 individuals. Umbric's followers would seem to be demonstrably less than that, and just using the number of notable Void Elves vs. that of High Elves paints a pretty stark picture of population difference. Possibility #2 is possible but also unproven, we have no canon source showing us further creation of Void Elves is possible, and the scenario that led to their original creation was pretty specific and unique. Possibility #3 is likely, the High Elves do outnumber the Void Elves by a decent margin, meaning the Void Elven population is exceedingly low (probably in the low hundreds all told).

The calculation on the minimum Alliance High Elf population was derived through respectable algebra, but does not account for natural wastage that has occurred over the years. Theramore, where many Alliance High Elves lived, was destroyed. The Silver Covenant has participated in several military campaigns and sustained losses...the Silver Enclave in Dalaran was renamed the Greyfang Enclave and many of the High Elves who were present there in the past are now gone. The logical supposition is that Silver Covenant numbers have dwindled to the point where having their own quarter in Dalaran was no longer sustainable. The Warcraft Encyclopedia also makes clear that in the time between the initial split and the restoration of the Sunwell, any Alliance High Elf could succumb to the temptations of the addiction and become a Blood Elf. And IF, as I believe the evidence strongly suggests, Void Elves can turn other Elves into Void Elves, then that is yet another drain on the population.

Moorgard's post seems more to be postulating on the nature of the Void Elves' future and not canonically stating the case, which has yet to be seen or determined. I think it is certainly possible it *could* be the case and would explain how the Void Elves plan to continue as a race, perhaps even probable, but I don't think it is concluded just yet (not in terms of canon and not by the developers). Additionally, I think it is unlikely the High Elves as a whole would go in for becoming Void Elves given their continued strong affiliation with the Light - it is more likely that that the Void Elves would continue to draw from disaffected Blood Elves to bolster their numbers (while perhaps taking in the occasional exiled High Elven adherent).

Taking Moorgard's quote in isolation is the problem with most responses discussing it. The question he was actually asked is glossed over, to allow a free hand in re-interpreting what he said. Moorgard was asked 'where are Void Elf numbers coming from?'. The only interpretation of his answer that makes sense in the context of the question asked is that the Void Elves are capable of turning Elves who seek them out into Void Elves. The pro High Elf community has a very active motive in rejecting the possibility that Void Elves can turn others. As discussed earlier, IF they can turn others, then there is no reason they cannot roleplay their particular Void Elf as an Alliance High Elf who has embraced the void. Once that is unambiguously confirmed, and as you stated in your dissent it is 'probable', any dissent towards seeing the Void Elves as the thalassian option of the Alliance will confirm the underlying point of why Void Elf reproduction matters.

That is you can play a Void Elf who was always an Alliance High Elf, or at least an exiled High Elf, and if that is confirmed and the Void Elf still remains unacceptable, then that is confirmation the objection to Void Elves was never about the lore, it was about their aesthetic and theme and that the desire for Alliance High Elves is about gaining access to the aesthetic and theme of a core Horde race without having to be Horde.

That most Void Elf recruits would be Blood Elven is unobjectionable, there are far, far more Blood Elves than Alliance High Elves. Yet Alliance High Elves would find it much easier, both emotionally and politically, to make the final leap towards being a Void Elf given they have already severed their ties with their homeland. I suspect former Alliance High Elves constitute a much larger proportion of the Void Elves than they do out of the Blood/high elf population as a whole.

A distinction without a difference - Quel'dorei, Sin'dorei, and Ren'dorei Elves are all equally Thalassian. They are also all of High Elven extraction. To be Thalassian is to be of High Elven stock, changing alliances or altered physiology doesn't really change that. I would also argue the aesthetic and cultural similarity between exiled High Elves and Blodod Elves - being an exile from your homeland definitely changes one's culture, and their chosen aesthetics also show differentiation out of the sincere desire for exiled High Elves not to be confused with their Blood Elven kin.

I disagree. While all are thalassian, the physiological changes between Ren'dorei and the Sin/Quel'dorei makes them the beginning of something new. The key point here is attempting to draw an equivalence...that a Quel'Dorei is as different from a Sin'Dorei as a Ren'dorei is from a Sin'Dorei. This is self-evidently untrue. Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are the same race, no physiological alterations have occurred that permanently divides the two groups, any more than the English can be divided into Labour and Conservative voters based on a physiological difference unique to each party affiliation. Political opinion and physiological difference are two different things. Void Elves ARE different from Blood/High Elves, they are void mutants.

I think it is likely that the Void Elves exist because the Void and its conflict with the Light is an overarching theme that WoW's story-arc is likely to be dealing with more and more. Simply put, there is more narrative "meat" to the Void Elven storyline due to its direct association with this conflict than is achievable with the exiled High Elves. That the Void Elves contrast directly with the Lightforged Draenei is a circumstance that should be lost on no one. More succinctly - the Void Elves are a springboard for future salient story-arcs, whereas the exiled High Elves are not.

I find this unobjectionable and I agree with this, not to mention the dichotomy the Void Elves now provide with the light orientated Blood Elves. But the corollary of this point is that Alliance High Elves no longer have a role in the story. If they ever had one, it was to be an occasional foil to the Blood Elves...and the Void Elves will now do a far better job of that.

IAs per the above - they were creating Allied Races to tell specific stories, and not cultivating choices based solely on player demand. I won't argue that they knew exactly what they were doing, but what they were doing isn't quite what you're implying here. All of the Allied Races share in the sense that they're relevant to stories being told. The High Elves simply aren't relevant to any current stories, though in time they might be all depending on what stories are going to be told in the future.

No, this I disagree with. Allied races were created in response to the long put forward desire for a sub-race system, offering more customization options. The stories behind each were secondary and primarily serve as a justification for the existence of the allied race variants. If Blizzard wanted to make the Alliance High Elves relevant, they could have simply put THEM through the void transformation. I think we'd all be happier if they had done so, but they probably have their reasons as to why they didn't. Given the vehemence with which they rejected playable Alliance High Elves though, as per Ion's commentary, I doubt it is because they are 'keeping them in reserve'. I very, very much doubt that.

Why would the Blood Elves do this, they've never evinced a desire to further differentiate themselves against the exiles - in matter of fact, Lor'themar has shown a desire to reintegrate now that the Sunwell has been restored. Also, there are existing Blood Elves who've explored the Void well before the advent of the Void Elves e.g. High Astromancer Solarian, who becomes a Voidwalker-like entity during her fight back in TBC. I don't think your argument stands very well in light of the history of the Blood Elves themselves.

Why wouldn't they? The tattoos were used by the Elves of Warcraft 2, most of whom became Blood Elves. It's a part of their heritage. Hairstyles are just hairstyles, why should that be the basis for a new race? IF something suggested for Alliance High Elves can be done with a Blood Elf, then it's not a true difference.

High Astromancer Solarian's experiments with the void went all the way. The ritual that transformed the Void Elves was interrupted part way after all, the goal was to turn them into Ethereals. Solarian turned into a void entity. She never stopped at the Void Elf stage, she just went straight through.

[Ielenia]

Occam's razor applies.

Occam's razor does not apply, because "not having 'fat' Kul'Tirans in the army" raises more questions than it answers.

One question being: why would they not have their toughest, strongest men as part of their military? It's not strategically sound. And looking at the 'fat' kul'tirans, I believe no one is going to argue that they are not stronger and tougher than the average human.

Because, as described above, the real litmus test of differentiation is for Alliance High Elves specifically is 'can they be differentiated from Blood Elves in a way that should not be available to Blood Elf players?'.

I just wanted to point this out: the void elves fail that "litmus test", considering being "void-y" is a result of a (allegedly) repeatable transformation, and we have blood elf scholars in Telogrus Rift, meaning those elves could technically return to Silvermoon with that knowledge of the void powers and transformation.

[ddi2]

You are right. If they made them with the ogre model instead they wouldn't look like the High Elves at all :> But then they would be named Void Ogres.

Void Elves do look as a Blood Elf/High Elf just with purple/blue undertones instead of pale skin. That's the point, because they are purple/blue High/Blood Elves. They are made to look similar to their Blood Elf brethren because the devs knew that a Blood Elf model in the Alliance would be appreciated. And seeing it's the most popular Allied Race out there, I for one think they hit the nail on that one. Personally too, Void Elves are very cool and it's a shame Demon Hunters can't be one, but good thing I like alts!

Blizzard took the model of Blood Elves and gave it to Alliance thinking they would be happy. But they also didn't want them to be High Elves so they made them the furthest thing from High Elves they could have done. Model wise Void Elves are the closest, in everything else they are the furthest.

100% false.

Nightborne use the night elf model, and according to realmpop there are significantly more void elf characters than nightborne. Going to the official forums further proves this, in that there are far my void elf posters than any other AR. In fact, void elfs are the most played AR to date.

Why are void elves far more popular than nightborne? Simple answer. Their model. Given that blood elves are the most popular race and given that void elves are the most popular AR (both sharing the same model), we can safely assume that their model is the key factor to this.

So don't be ignorant and assume people would be fine with a night elf model for high elves. Some players may be fine with that, but I can guarantee you that far more players would prefer them to have the blood elf model, based on the evidence we have at hand. This is further evident-ed by the fact that so many high elfers have advocated or expressed their acceptance of lighter customization options for void elves, far more so then I've seen high elfers advocating for high elfs using a night elf model.

As oppose to now when you can't actually play high elves at all?

A tiger is a cat. In fact, its genetic structure is nearly 100% identical to a domestic cat living in you or a friend's house.

Refrain from making incorrect statements like these, because even in a High Elf discussion thread, silly statements like "Tigers are not cats" can really damage your credibility. Especially in the realm of saying this is this, or that is that.

Frankly, if you can't determine that a tiger is cat, I'd have severe doubts about a more difficult distinction between fictional races such as Thalassian Elves.

(I even bolded the important part, since that seems to be trendy.)

Eh, not really, tigers and domestic cats cannot produce healthy children, hence they are considered as different species.

[Aldo Hawk]

One question that is still up in the air is about the group that is being referred to.

The majority points to the Silver Covenant, however there are more options as some point to the Allerian elves or the Quel'danil ones.

One good option would be to ask for some sort of reunification of the different groups like the AU orcs did, and this would be my own take on it apart from the Silver Covenant group.

So, what do you think? What group would you ask for? Do you think a reunification would be better than asking for one single group?

[FlubberPuddy]

One question that is still up in the air is about the group that is being referred to.

The majority points to the Silver Covenant, however there are more options as some point to the Allerian elves or the Quel'danil ones.

One good option would be to ask for some sort of reunification of the different groups like the AU orcs did, and this would be my own take on it apart from the Silver Covenant group.

So, what do you think? What group would you ask for? Do you think a reunification would be better than asking for one single group?

A gathering force of the Silver Covenant, Allerian Elves, and Quel'danil to unify makes ample story for playable High Elves to exist and bolsters their numbers to achieve that effect. If the Silver Covenant alone has been utilizing its troops since Northrend throughout other incursions (re-taking Zul'aman or w/e in Cata, Purge of Dalaran, Joining the Hunter Order Hall as well as one of the elven forces re-taking Suramar) then the contingent of Outland based Allerian Elves and smattering of Highvale should bring up their numbers enough to make playable.

We have seen much less than that number of forces for the existing playable races (such as Pandas, Darkspear - who were almost all wiped out by Murlocs, and of course Void Elves).

Would make for an interesting story as well since it's be an "Alliance" of High Elves, brings back Auric into a leadership role and Vereesa into the main spotlight as well.

Other races have been added, or will be added (Mechagnomes/Vulpera) for lesser reasons/exposure.

- - - Updated - - -

Stormwind itself has also exposed a few more High Elf Sorceresses, some separate from walking with the Void Elves, who are lvl 110. It could be that more High Elves among the humans are taking up active roles now that they may be needed post Faction War ("calling in the cavalry").

As we can see that a Void Elf is learning under the tutelage of a High Elf Mage Trainer, it shows that it is the High Elves who are taking on the mentor role to the Void Elves rather than the other way around.

[Ogren]

I still feel like we're far more likely to get High Elf customization for Void Elves than a full blown High Elf race, maybe when we find out how new Void Elves are recruited and whether their Void'ing process resembles Alleria's more than Umbric's. At the very least, Frasaboo is open to it whereas High Elves as their own allied race seem to have been shut down.

Should have just been what they did from the beginning instead of this weird mess of Blood Elf nobodies with zero history in the lore up until now. Blizzard has never been good at backstories for fresh new races added to the Alliance, but I think Void Elves take the cake on serious missed opportunity compared to Draenei and Worgen.

[Ielenia]

One question that is still up in the air is about the group that is being referred to.

The majority points to the Silver Covenant, however there are more options as some point to the Allerian elves or the Quel'danil ones.

One good option would be to ask for some sort of reunification of the different groups like the AU orcs did, and this would be my own take on it apart from the Silver Covenant group.

So, what do you think? What group would you ask for? Do you think a reunification would be better than asking for one single group?

The biggest high elf group currently in the game is the Silver Covenant, I believe. I suppose the separate high elves unifying themselves into a single banner would be ideal, especially if they take the Silver Covenant banner. I do like the blue and silver motif of the group.

[Aucald]

Occam's razor applies. Yes, I do think it is plausible that none of the larger Kul Tirans were present among the ranks of those in Daelin's army because we didn't encounter any. As we didn't encounter them, and as we know they exist, the only explanation is that they weren't there. That is an explanation that does not require a retcon. Or if you want a darker explanation, the stranded and starving Kul Tiran expeditionary force, besieged in the Orc homeland and with low supplies, started with the biggest among them first in an attempt to survive.

I don't think Occam's Razor applies quite in the way you present here. I mean you're claiming that either none of them accompanied the mission despite the danger, or that they were eaten by their compatriots due to lack of supplies? I don't think either of these examples seem plausible on the face of it, the first because it just doesn't demographically pan out (unless there's some form of internalized prejudice in Kul Tiras involved the larger or stockier members of their society that we've yet to hear of). The second because, well, if the Kul Tiran expeditionary forces had become cannibals in the interim you'd think this is something we'd heard of. Neither of these explanations work because we also know the larger, stockier Kul Tirans were involved in the Second War due to Cyrus Crestfall, who served in the Kul Tiran navy under Daelin himself before being sent back to help raise Taelia Fordragon. They were present, probably in the same general demographics as they have on Kul Tiras, meaning that their existence is still a soft retcon.

As for such a soft retcon being done with Alliance High Elves, I disagree. Even the Kul Tirans are a mixture of the two types, standard Human and bulky Human. They are all still Kul Tiran, all loyal to Boralus. The point of differentiation between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves was philosophical, over the method of consuming arcane energies from living beings. It was not physical. As a result, the corollary of your suggestion is that everyone who looked different from the standard Elves also, through sheer coincidence, arrived at the same opinion regarding the morality of consuming arcane energies and were exiled. Now that is something I do genuinely find implausible, if there were a naturally occurring physical variant of thalassian elves then I would suggest they would divide along the same 90%-10% split that originally occurred among all thalassian elves and that most elves of this variant would still be Blood Elves and therefore an option for Horde players.

If one group can undergo something a demographic retcon in order to accentuate a difference of type, then it is easy enough for another group to do so. That is the essence of the argument. You need only apply it to a narrative device that already stands between the exiled High Elves and their Blood Elven kin - for example, the nature of the exile itself and their long process of overcoming Arcane addiction without relying on Mana Tapping.

This is the point in which this particular argument curls in upon itself and becomes circular as the entire point of a different physical build defining Alliance High Elves would be to force a measure of differentiation between them and existing elves. As such differentiation cannot logically be excluded from being available to the Blood Elves, the entire rationale for creating such a difference vanishes.

Not really - see above.

The thin model is explainable as just being naturally thin. There remains a debate regarding the Kul Tirans, it could be as you describe, just how they differentiate Kul Tirans, but the other plausible options have yet to be debunked. Regardless, the idea that what was done with Kul Tirans could be done with Alliance High Elves collapses under even the most meagre scrutiny. If you wanted to argue for a type of thalassian elf with a different model, the Half Elf route is the way to go. Plausible explanation for why they have a different model, would still have long ears and blue eyes (elf head, human body), would still be of thalassian culture and as Half Elves, NOT High Elves, they would not undermine the integrity of the Horde faction or the identity of the Blood Elves. Everything that is apparently wanted by the pro High Elf community with the exception of the name and that they are not fully elves. Of course, the Half Elf suggestion gets little traction despite that which is a pity.

I am unsure on the face of it why the inclusion of exiled High Elves as a playable race would undermine the integrity of the Blood Elves but the Void Elves do not? Even if you do consider the Void Elves different enough from the Blood Elves, it still seems like entirely arbitrary line drawn in the sand. I'm not personally opposed to Half Elves myself, although they apparently have a profound rarity in the Warcraft universe; in that there's only a literal handful of them in existence (and this not counting Kalec himself).

If the Vry'kul theory is true, then yes it could. But the predominance of the build among Kul Tirans seems to suggest it was something unique on the islands that contributed to the development of this variant.

Probably the effect of the Drust Vrykul and the Kul Tiran Humans being on an island for a prolonged period of time. Most of Vrykul history has Humanity being pretty far from them - exiles from their original lands on a completely different continent. Kul Tiras happens to be the only instance I can think of where Humans and Vrykul co-existed for a time (albeit not very peaceably given the givens).

Because, as described above, the real litmus test of differentiation is for Alliance High Elves specifically is 'can they be differentiated from Blood Elves in a way that should not be available to Blood Elf players?'. Hypothetically, we could encounter a lost tribe of thalssian elves whose isolation has caused them to become considerably taller and much more muscular than a standard thalassian elf. As they would not be encumbered by our prior knowledge of them, such a thing would be acceptable using the Kul Tiran precedent. But we know where Alliance High Elves come from, they are political exiles from Silvermoon. As they come from Silvermoon, it is highly implausible to argue that there was a one to one correlation between the political/philosophical opinion that led to their exile and this hypothetical physical differentiation that could retroactively be applied to all Alliance High Elves and not be available to Blood Elves. This is the same rationale I used when some suggested that Alliance High Elves could be differentiated by giving them darker skin colours than the Blood Elves in that I argued that such skin colours would also need to be available to Blood Elves...and that there were extremly troubling connotations of the suggestion that the fair skinned Blood Elves happened to exile everyone with darker skins from Silvermoon for being 'troublesome'.

There have been a number of different lore-related mechanisms to create this kind of disparity - differences that the High Elven exiles would have that their Blood Elven kin would not share. Purple/Blue/White eyes (owing to the use of external sources of Arcane power to quell their addiction), minor physiological changes due to the different sources of mana they've been forced to use, or if you wanted to go the Kul Tiran route you could even add Half-Elf elements to them to underline their closeness to Humanity due to their loss of a homeland, not too dissimilar from the stockier and larger Kul Tirans. Ostentatious heraldry and/or tattoos celebrating their lost culture and/or emphasizing their current allegiances could also be used - obviously elements that the Blood Elves would not and would have no need of sharing.

No, I don't think it would be enough. Again, the litmus test for true differentiation is that the proposed feature which differentiates them cannot be replicated by the parent race. Eye colour is mutable, blue eyes for Blood Elves are a plausible request we hope to see realised with advanced character customizations. The tattoos that were common in Warcraft 2 Elven artwork are the shared heritage of both groups and there is no reason Blood Elves couldn't have them either and the minor physiological differences...that's the natural variations between individuals of a group rather than differences between a group. Some Elves have longer ears, some have shorter, some are a little fatter, some are a little thinner, we have to suspend our disbelief sometimes in game when we accept that every member of a race displayed to us has the exact same build, exact same height, exact same finger size etc. That's a by-product of the game engine. As such, the minor physiological differences are encompassed within the entire race and are not a point of differentiation.

As per the above, if the eye-glows were different from those of the Blood Elves they would be applicable. If the tattoos or Arcane heraldry bore very obvious High Elven exile themes they would also not be shared by the Blood Elves - as I doubt any Blood Elf in good standing would bedeck themselves with Blue/Silver tattoos, glowing glyphs that show Alliance heraldry, or such as that. Given the Blood Elves' historic xenophobia they'd also not have acquired any Human-like traits over a long period of living as refugees in predominantly Human settlements. It's very easy to underscore a number of noteworthy differences without much in the way of taxing the imagination, or breaking existing lore anymore than the Kul Tirans already have.

Saying that they might eventually change their minds has never struck me as a particularly good argument, because that is implicit in everything we discuss. Of course they can change their minds, should we not debate because of that fact? Or if someone quotes a developer saying something we don't like, are we able to instantly devalue it by saying 'well they can change their minds'? All we have to go on is what they tell us, the truth of the now. Maybe the truth will be different this time next year, that is their perogative as the creator. But if debate is to function on these forums, we cannot reach beyond what they tell us to 'well they may change their minds' because what is anyone to supposed to come back with to that? That is the moment debate ends.

Either way you sift it, the debate either boils down to why they should do such a thing, or why they should change their stance on such a thing. As I've said before, I don't particularly mind either way - my only contention in this debate is the idea is that's there no lore-related reason to do so, which is a position I disagree with regardless of who actually says it. There *are* gameplay-related reasons for not doing so, and of course they can do whatever they want at the end of the day.

As for this being an argument to authority, yes it is, but that is not a fallacy. An argument to authority is a fallacy because it presumes the authority cited is themselves correct, this only works in real world situations where truth is objective and that authority can be wrong. WoW is a work of fiction, the truth is subjective to the creators but objective to those of us outside the creative process. You cannot prove a creator wrong on a work of fiction, as if you ever managed to do so they could simply adjust their creation towards the truth as they see it.

It's a fallacy because you're referring to them as if they are correct about it, but this is not a thing you can technically be correct on - it's a position, essentially an opinion, and even if they are the authority on the matter they can still be wrong (or you can still think they're wrong). And, of course, they've been wrong before; and they've gone back on things they've said they would or wouldn't do and done the opposite. You cannot prove a creator wrong or right about a work a fiction, especially in a context where there are no demonstrable facts to be had. Besides, I don't think anyone is claiming the developers are factually incorrect - they're saying that the current position is a mistake, and that is a valid opinion as well.

At the moment, word of God is that Blood Elves are the High Elves of the franchise and that Alliance High Elves would damage faction diversity. If they ever change that, that does not retro-actively make those who quote that line wrong, as they were correct at the time they quoted it.

Not in contention, but also not really of substance either.

Unfortunately, I also have to disagree that playable Alliance High Elves would not undermine the Blood Elven narrative. The key point of the pro High Elf community is that the Alliance High Elves are the true High Elves of the franchise, often citing a continuous relationship with the Alliance going back to Warcraft 2. Pointing out that that during the Second War the High Elves were the last to join the Alliance, that they had to be compelled to join under ancient blood oath, that they only sent a token force initially, that the only fully participated when their own lands were threatened and that they were the very first to leave the Alliance once the threat had passed shows the relationship that actually existed in lore does not quite the match the vision many of that community still have of the High Elves place within the Alliance. Should Alliance High Elves become playable, they would instantly push their vision upon the rest of us, that the true Alliance of Warcraft 2 had been restored, that an 'iconic' Alliance race is back within the Alliance and this narrative would, by necessity, 'other' the Blood Elves, damaging their narrative and reducing them to yet another bunch of nasty elves fighting for the bad guys. There is no way the Blood Elf narrative cannot be damaged by playable Alliance High Elves. Which is to say nothing of the damage they would do the Void Elf narrative, Void Elves have clearly been designed as the new foil to the light orientated Blood Elves, yet in future the narrative dichotomy between the two groups would be upset to force in Alliance High Elves. Given that the Alliance High Elves are as connected to the light as any other Blood Elf through the Sunwell they both feed on, this would pervert and muddy what should be a clear dividing line...Horde and Light versus Alliance and Void...and turns into something less satisfying. Sometimes extra complexity does not help, particularly the extraneous complexity this suggestion entails in the Void Elf-Blood Elf relationship.

I can't speak for the "community," but I don't see it either way. Both the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves are equally "true High Elves," both groups have the same heritage and history up to their point of cultural divide (the exile of the now-refugee High Elves from Quel'Thalas). Neither group is truer to being a High Elf than the other, in that sense. Playability doesn't really change any of that, either; the exiled High Elves already exist as a faction in and of themselves - if their existence were going to diminish the Blood Elves in some capacity, then this diminishing would've already occurred. The community can't dictate terms to the narrative, either; so I'm not sure why anyone would be afraid of playable High Elven exiles causing "[them to] instantly push their vision upon the rest of us?" Their opinions don't factor into the narrative in any realistic sense, and playability itself doesn't really change either group's lore. As for the Void Elves, I would actually argue that a focus on them could add color to the Void Elves' story - especially given the fact that the marquee High Elven exile Alleria Windrunner actually straddles both sides of the cultural divide as both a High Elven exile as well as a Void Elf (after a fashion). There's a lot of seeds in that story for generating both conflict and drama.

If they want Alliance High Elf representation within the game for players, the simplest thing they can do is make explicit that Void Elves can recruit and remove any lingering doubt. The very moment there is an in game representation, or something written in a short story or novel, of a thalassian elf being changed into a Void Elf, the lore objection to Void Elves from the pro High Elf community will become unsustainable.

That would be one way to resolve the issue, yes; but there are others.

Which of course will change nothing as I still believe the primary objection is to the fact that the Void Elves are blue/purple but it would be interesting to see how pro High Elf commentators adjust their arguments after receiving cast iron proof. Although given they dispute the senior narrative lead saying Void Elves can turn others I half suspect they try and rationalise it away as not counting for some reason.

Difficult to say, really. Even if the Void Elves can recruit exiled High Elves (or Blood Elves) to create new Void Elves, I don't think that will actually end the debate. Not until the exiled High Elves ceased to exist as their own group, which is unlikely to say the least.

We cannot reject developer commentary simply because we find it inconvenient to our case. We can interrogate it, sure and sometimes they do misspeak, but I don't think Ion did on this occasion. Because he didn't say this once. He said it twice, six months apart.

The frequency with which one says something doesn't really add to either their being correct or incorrect.

The two interviews Ion Hazzikostas did which contained his answers on Alliance High Elves were the Jessie Cox 2017 interview at Blizzcon. The format was ad hoc, with Jessie reading off questions from his community to Ion so Ion wouldn't have been able to prepare for the questions, answering them as they came.

Jessie Cox: Are there any major High Elf hubs left where you could be like 'of course there are adventurers willing to come from there, I don't think so.'

Ion(Shaking his head): I don't think so

Jessie Cox: Yeah, so I don't know where they'd come from to begin with.

Ion: They've basically been assimilated into other cultures.

Which actually matches the reality of the game. There are no major High Elf hubs in the game. Dalaran is a human city. It is hosting the Silver Covenant militia. The Silver Covenant, which everyone agrees is actually the most substantial High Elven group left, were mocked by Elisande for 'diluting their bloodlines' i.e. their close relationships with Humans rather than other Elves were leading them to have Half Elven children. The Silver Covenant, living in a human city, following human orders, prioritising Human interests over their own people, they've been assimilated ( and are not creating their own culture with tattoos or different hairstyles for example).

Assimilation is how different cultures come to be, in many cases. That being said you need only a catalyzing event to bring about a restoration of their original culture.

The Allerian Stronghold, I have been there recently as it came up in discussion. There are a handful of Alliance High Elves. It's a human settlement, inhabited by mostly Humans, whose Elven inhabitants are some of the few rangers who defied their King's orders and accompanied the Alliance to Draenor during the events of Beyond the Dark Portal. But it is not an elven settlement, nor is it a bastion of high elven civilization. It's a miserable, foreboding place a group of isolated soliders established in a hostile, alien world as they clung on for dear life in the hopes that one day, the portal would re-open and they would go home. Because Outland is frozen in time we can't confirm this, but I figure most of the people who lived in Allerian Stronghold circa TBC likely went back home to Azeroth again following Illidan's defeat.

Actually it's a mix of Human and Elven in terms of its construction - the Allerian Stronghold is one of the only places in which you can see High Elven construction such as an Arcane Sanctuary and an Elven Mage Tower. There's also a goodly number of High Elven exiles present relative to their total population, actually having more High Elves per capita than even Dalaran (owing to its smaller population overall). We don't know what the status of the Allerian Stronghold is currently, but we know as of WotLK it was still extant.

And Quel'danil is an isolated hut, a nice hut as huts goes but still a hut which exists on Wildhammer lands and is full of Draenei and Dwarves. They aren't a culture of their own, they're outdoorsy Farstriders sticking two fingers up at the regimé in Silvermoon.

It's a lodge, a largish and fortified structure acting as a barracks for a goodly number of people. It's also of note that other High Elven exiles are sprinkled around the general area of Highvale - it's assumed that they have smaller homesteads in the area not represented in-game (beyond the tents and pavilions clustered around Quel'Danil). We know as a given that in-game geography and lore geography is not 1:1.

Now, you could argue he misspoke here despite the fact his comments match the game world as is (and match the comments from the still canon warcraft encyclopedia that 'High elves do not gather in any significant numbers, nor do they act as a coordinated whole. They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals. Indeed, modern high elves cannot even truly be said to have a culture--only a past filled with glory and regret.') because it was an ad hoc interview. But he then went and essentially repeated himself in the April 2018 Q and A

Ion: '...but also there isn't a clear example of who or what High Elves are as a larger group that still remains in Azeroth...they're not out there in the same way'

This is currently true, yes. And a quest chain bringing about a playable option for them could involved bringing them together and giving them a cause and/or reason to finally rally around. This is an explanation of why they're not currently playable, but it doesn't extend to them never being so.

People of course like to argue that. They cite the Silver Covenant, they cite Allerian Stronghold, they cite Quel'Danil. Yet Ion made essentially the same points six months apart, and while he could have potentially misspoken on the first interview, the idea that he did so again in the second when he would have known in advance what the questions were seems a bit far-fetched. So how do you rationalise the Silver Covenant, Quel'Danil and Allerian Stronghold with these comments? Simple. They aren't large groups who are out in the world....they are small, fragmented, assimilated and degrading.

The same could be said of the Void Elves - small, fragmented (recently exiled from their homeland), assimilated (into the Void), and even degrading (from Void-induced insanity). What is currently true of the Void Elves is also true of the High Elven exiles.

The calculation on the minimum Alliance High Elf population was derived through respectable algebra, but does not account for natural wastage that has occurred over the years. Theramore, where many Alliance High Elves lived, was destroyed. The Silver Covenant has participated in several military campaigns and sustained losses...the Silver Enclave in Dalaran was renamed the Greyfang Enclave and many of the High Elves who were present there in the past are now gone. The logical supposition is that Silver Covenant numbers have dwindled to the point where having their own quarter in Dalaran was no longer sustainable. The Warcraft Encyclopedia also makes clear that in the time between the initial split and the restoration of the Sunwell, any Alliance High Elf could succumb to the temptations of the addiction and become a Blood Elf. And IF, as I believe the evidence strongly suggests, Void Elves can turn other Elves into Void Elves, then that is yet another drain on the population.

Actually a culture in demographic peril would necessarily focus on breeding - so there should be many more younger High Elven exiles due to a boom in breeding in response to their low numbers. And since the Silver Covenant forces appear alongside the Night Elves during the Suramar story-arc, we know they're still extant. We've no real info on their current numbers, and given that they're active in Cata, MoP and Legion I think it unlikely they've dwindled so markedly. More likely they left Dalaran along with Jaina, their patron, for places unknown.

Taking Moorgard's quote in isolation is the problem with most responses discussing it. The question he was actually asked is glossed over, to allow a free hand in re-interpreting what he said. Moorgard was asked 'where are Void Elf numbers coming from?'. The only interpretation of his answer that makes sense in the context of the question asked is that the Void Elves are capable of turning Elves who seek them out into Void Elves. The pro High Elf community has a very active motive in rejecting the possibility that Void Elves can turn others. As discussed earlier, IF they can turn others, then there is no reason they cannot roleplay their particular Void Elf as an Alliance High Elf who has embraced the void. Once that is unambiguously confirmed, and as you stated in your dissent it is 'probable', any dissent towards seeing the Void Elves as the thalassian option of the Alliance will confirm the underlying point of why Void Elf reproduction matters.

I don't really follow your logical supposition here. The Void Elves and the High Elven exiles are very separate communities, and even if the Void Elves can take in High Elven exiles and allow them to also join the Void Elves, this doesn't remove the existent cultural divide or nullify the original split between the two groups. From a lore standpoint, A does not follow to B in the linear path you've laid out, and many High Elven exiles would likely balk at becoming Void Elves due to their closeness to or belief in the Light as a philosophy.

That is you can play a Void Elf who was always an Alliance High Elf, or at least an exiled High Elf, and if that is confirmed and the Void Elf still remains unacceptable, then that is confirmation the objection to Void Elves was never about the lore, it was about their aesthetic and theme and that the desire for Alliance High Elves is about gaining access to the aesthetic and theme of a core Horde race without having to be Horde.

Not necessarily, no. At least not any more than playing a Void Elf grants the same access to an aesthetic and theme of a core Horde race without having to be Horde.

That most Void Elf recruits would be Blood Elven is unobjectionable, there are far, far more Blood Elves than Alliance High Elves. Yet Alliance High Elves would find it much easier, both emotionally and politically, to make the final leap towards being a Void Elf given they have already severed their ties with their homeland. I suspect former Alliance High Elves constitute a much larger proportion of the Void Elves than they do out of the Blood/high elf population as a whole.

Maybe so, and maybe not. The impasse may well be resolved by a mass indoctrination of exiled High Elves into becoming Void Elves - but that is not the only way for the story to play out, and likely not even the best way for it to play out, ultimately.

I disagree. While all are thalassian, the physiological changes between Ren'dorei and the Sin/Quel'dorei makes them the beginning of something new. The key point here is attempting to draw an equivalence...that a Quel'Dorei is as different from a Sin'Dorei as a Ren'dorei is from a Sin'Dorei. This is self-evidently untrue. Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are the same race, no physiological alterations have occurred that permanently divides the two groups, any more than the English can be divided into Labour and Conservative voters based on a physiological difference unique to each party affiliation. Political opinion and physiological difference are two different things. Void Elves ARE different from Blood/High Elves, they are void mutants.

Nightborne and Kaldorei are also the same race, with scant few physiological alterations that have occurred to divide the two groups, and yet divided they are. I actually think the huge cultural upheaval caused by being exiled from your homeland and being forced to live on the fringes of society in a near-endangered state is more fundamentally separate and a more marked division that just undergoing a ritual that made you closer to the Void. Granted, they are physiologically changed, but then so are the Blood Elves changed by their temporary reliance on Fel energy. I disagree that those changes are so marked in one case and can be almost completely ignored in the other.

I find this unobjectionable and I agree with this, not to mention the dichotomy the Void Elves now provide with the light orientated Blood Elves. But the corollary of this point is that Alliance High Elves no longer have a role in the story. If they ever had one, it was to be an occasional foil to the Blood Elves...and the Void Elves will now do a far better job of that.

I think this is actually the primary cause for the existence of the problem - if the High Elven exiles no longer have a role to play in the story, then why do they keep showing up with such a pronounced focus? From their presence in TBC, to their high degree of involvement in WotLK, on to Cata with their role in Zul'Aman, and then in MoP with the Purge of Dalaran and the events of the Isle of Thunder? That's a pretty hefty footprint for a race that is "no longer relevant." I would argue that the High Elven exiles have gotten better treatment in the narrative than the Gnomes, Tauren, Trolls, or Dwarves up until this point at least. It remains to be seen what the Void Elves will do to top that, really; but so far in BfA they've not done much beyond their appearance at the Battle of Lordaeron.

No, this I disagree with. Allied races were created in response to the long put forward desire for a sub-race system, offering more customization options. The stories behind each were secondary and primarily serve as a justification for the existence of the allied race variants. If Blizzard wanted to make the Alliance High Elves relevant, they could have simply put THEM through the void transformation. I think we'd all be happier if they had done so, but they probably have their reasons as to why they didn't. Given the vehemence with which they rejected playable Alliance High Elves though, as per Ion's commentary, I doubt it is because they are 'keeping them in reserve'. I very, very much doubt that.

Who can really say. This is not a long-winded attempt to put the lie to the developers or prove one side of the community wrong or right. Actually, I'd say this profound need to be "right" is at the heart of the conflict. I'm saying that the current rationale doesn't really stand in-line with what's historically been protrayed in the story, and still doesn't. I also don't think the Allied races were even created to put forward the desire for a sub-race system because if that's case, then they're pretty much a failed implementation. No one asked for Void Elves, and no one could've imagined the Nightborne even existed until they were shown in Legion. Ditto for the Highmountain Tauren, a totally new variation heretofore unknown, as well as the Kul Tiran Humans who were also unknown. And then's there the dozen or so variations untouched by any of these new Allied Races - Frostborne Dwarves, Felblood Elves, Mechagnomes, etc. etc. It's completely possible there will never be a playable High Elven option - I'd argue the inclusion of Void Elves now makes it even more unlikely for balance reasons, but that's a position that has no real support by either precedent or narrative. It is essentially a completely arbitrary decision.

Why wouldn't they? The tattoos were used by the Elves of Warcraft 2, most of whom became Blood Elves. It's a part of their heritage. Hairstyles are just hairstyles, why should that be the basis for a new race? IF something suggested for Alliance High Elves can be done with a Blood Elf, then it's not a true difference.

Tattoos devoted to further showcasing their separation from the Blood Elves or Quel'Thalas by adopting Alliance-related motifs? Why would the Blood Elves have such a thing? Hair styles wouldn't be nearly enough on their own, but combined with other such outward presentation changes they could help with differentiation.

High Astromancer Solarian's experiments with the void went all the way. The ritual that transformed the Void Elves was interrupted part way after all, the goal was to turn them into Ethereals. Solarian turned into a void entity. She never stopped at the Void Elf stage, she just went straight through.

The point is that she was a Blood Elf involved with experimenting on the Void, and she likely wasn't along given the other Astromancers present in her wing of the Eye or among Kael's forces in Outland. Blood Elves were investigating the Void well before the Void Elves became a thing.

[Ielenia]

If one group can undergo something a demographic retcon in order to accentuate a difference of type, then it is easy enough for another group to do so. That is the essence of the argument. You need only apply it to a narrative device that already stands between the exiled High Elves and their Blood Elven kin - for example, the nature of the exile itself and their long process of overcoming Arcane addiction without relying on Mana Tapping.

This is something I've been arguing a lot with Kai, and he refuses to acknowledge the idea. I even gave the idea of high elves training their bodies physically to deal with the physical effects of their mana addiction withdrawal, as exercising to help fight withdrawal is something that exists in real life. I just applied it to the game, and it would explain a difference in build and/or posture between high elves and blood elves. His response always was: "and why couldn't the blood elves also work out?"

Another idea I posited is the possibility that being around too much fel magic radiation (from all those fel crystals in Silvermoon) made the blood elves' body slightly weaker than the high elves'. The supporting evidence I use for this idea is the fact that, when The Burning Crusade expansion came along, blood elf players only had paladins as a plate-wearing class option. They did not have the option to pick the warrior class. Only when the Cataclysm expansion came along that blood elves could finally be warriors.

[Magnagarde]

High elves allied with humans only when they needed them. Blood elves can't love humans after Garithos' actions. They joined the Horde because they were accepted in it. It makes more sense than Alliance night elves.

That's what puts the high elves which are still Alliance appart from the rest of their people; they're still Alliance. It's quite clear that the Silver Covenant holds no grudge with the Alliance over this nor did all the high elves in the various lodges across the Eastern Kingdoms.

[scubi666stacy]

Obelisk Kai has been using a definition of "high elf" simply does not fit what is being discussed and this has been pointed out to him numerous times. To the point that I'm finding it hard to believe he does not know that he's using a wrong definition regarding "high elves" in the context of this thread's discussion. It's not about "agreeing with us", it's a case of insisting of using a different definition despite being shown numerous times it's not the one being used here.


The desire most people that want high elves, in my experience, want so because of their lore. So half-elves, as I see it, would still fit the "high elf" lore, if they come from high elves. Void elves would've fit the "high elf" lore if, again, they came from HE, but they didn't.

But they don't have lore! They are just a tool for Blood Elves lore, or Human lore. Get this into your head. They are plot devices. You don't make plot devices into playable characters.

[matrix123mko]

That's what puts the high elves which are still Alliance appart from the rest of their people; they're still Alliance. It's quite clear that the Silver Covenant holds no grudge with the Alliance over this nor did all the high elves in the various lodges across the Eastern Kingdoms.

Yes. Silver Covenant is a small group with weird beliefs but they should be playable race.

[Aldo Hawk]

But they don't have lore! They are just a tool for Blood Elves lore, or Human lore. Get this into your head. They are plot devices. You don't make plot devices into playable characters.

Please, expand more on this, I want to see how little you know about what you just spouted so everyone can see.

Spoiler: Not much.

[Ogren]

But they don't have lore! They are just a tool for Blood Elves lore, or Human lore. Get this into your head. They are plot devices. You don't make plot devices into playable characters.

Even if that's true I don't really see how that means much for anything, like so what? Then they're just basically like most of the other races who aren't Humans, Orcs, or Night Elves. Even the Void Elves who were picked over them haven't really had any lore that's meant anything besides just being bodies to throw at the Horde in faction assaults.

Honestly, way back in MoP I was actually pretty mad that High Elves were so active in the story despite not being a playable race, I really did consider that to be them having more presence than actual playable races that were absent from the story. Now that we're in the present and they're not even playable for that effort put into making them so prominent, I'm just left disappointed that Blizzard would even waste their time like that.

[Traycor]

I mean... Lorthemar Theron got a new model in this expansion, so he looks different from all other Blood Elves, so... is he not a Blood Elf? what about Thrall? he used to be the only Orc that could stand straight for like 2 expansions or more, or Garrosh, he did not have the body of a normal orc, etc... (you get the point)

Heck Blood Elves and HEs used to have the NE models, and when they got a new model in BC they didn't change race!

Great point on Lorthemar. The same could be said for characters like Jaina, Anduin, and Varian. Having a new model means nothing lore-wise. It's just a new model.

High Elves could have a new model too.

[matrix123mko]

But they don't have lore! They are just a tool for Blood Elves lore, or Human lore. Get this into your head. They are plot devices. You don't make plot devices into playable characters.

Aren't blood elves Horde plot device to open portals?

[Maxilian]

Aren't blood elves Horde plot device to open portals?

Not anymore!

Nightbornes are taking that spot.

[matrix123mko]

Not anymore!

Nightbornes are taking that spot.

Yes. From the start of BfA blood elves are degraded to meme race with selfie sticks. Sometimes we get to see paladins but I am sure they will be replaced by Zandalari prelates.

[Aldo Hawk]

Not anymore!

Nightbornes are taking that spot.

Then Nightborne are just Horde plot devices for portals and 'oh look ancient elven stuff and magic!'.

I'm so smart eksdee.

Oh wait, *Checks the 'plot devices'* did we got usurped? O_o Did the Blood elves got damaged beyond repair by Nightborne!?!? o_O

[matrix123mko]

Then Nightborne are just Horde plot devices for portals and 'oh look ancient elven stuff and magic!'.

I'm so smart eksdee.

Oh wait, *Checks the 'plot devices'* did we got usurped? O_o Did the Blood elves got damaged beyond repair by Nightborne!?!? o_O

Not beyond repair. They should just be considered additional elf colour option.