Tier 20 vs Tier 21 for Ret - Is it just me?

[Bane-Thunder-God]

Is it just me? Or is the Tier 20 set bonus to get extra holy power point from Blade of Justice/Wrath far more superior than Tier 21 set bonus that makes your holy power spender cost one less after you use judgement?

Tell me If there is any real reason to go after tier 21 over Tier 20 other than ilvl?

[Deleted]

In raw data, 4T20 is a bit better than 4T21 - that's right.

But you will want to use 2T21 too (super strong), so you would need to stop using the legendary cloak in order to go 4T20+2T21. And that's a dps loss in nearly every situation.

Last but not least, the itemization will speak for it's own. To fill the gap you would need to be really really lucky with T20-proccs in at least 3 out of 4 slots... (would say >950 compared to T21 mythic).

Still valid is going 2T20+4T21 if you had some lucky T20 proccs. I do this for several encounters.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

In raw data, 4T20 is a bit better than 4T21 - that's right.

But you will want to use 2T21 too (super strong), so you would need to stop using the legendary cloak in order to go 4T20+2T21. And that's a dps loss in nearly every situation.

Last but not least, the itemization will speak for it's own. To fill the gap you would need to be really really lucky with T20-proccs in at least 3 out of 4 slots... (would say >950 compared to T21 mythic).

Still valid is going 2T20+4T21 if you had some lucky T20 proccs. I do this for several encounters.

Thanks for putting this into perspective. I've not been lucky enough to get the legendary cloak yet. So still at a dps loss without it lol

I've got 2T21 atm so maybe ill pursue the 4 piece set.

[Eurytos]

I'm curious if you mean as a mechanic or just in terms of damage and numbers?

As a mechanic, I like them both, though I think I like t21 better, because I'll waste less holy power. If I use BoJ and get 3 holy power, then get a Blade of Wrath proc, but my judgment isnt off cd yet so I can't TV, maybe I even have a DP proc as well(meaning I've got two TVs lined up ready to go once I judge), I could CS again while I wait for Judgment, maybe even CS twice(here, maybe I clip the judgment cd, but I could have just waited a half second more and not get the 2nd CS)...now I'm full on holy power. I judge as soon as its off cd, TV twice(or more if I get more DP procs), and now by the time I get to it, BoW has actually proc'd again.

Whereas, in the same situation with t21, I could have just used that BoW proc again, goen from 2 to 4 hp, CS once(wait a half second on J), then Judge, then TV, etc. Possibly getting another BoW proc, but at least I didnt waste it previously.

This may seem like an unnecessarily complicated situation, but its not really that uncommon, especially during lust or crusade, you could waste quite a few BoW procs with how fast youre swinging. With t21, I think you'll waste less procs, and thereby generate more unwasted holy power.

I thought it would be harder to adjust to when I swapped to full t21, but it actually was fairly easy. I quite like it now.

[Lanfall]

I use 2pT20 and 4pT21 and it works out great for me.

[Ryuji]

If you raid mythic or did mythic Tomb(and got lucky with titanforging), could possibly use T20 and T21 together but mostly just stick with T21 otherwise.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Me personally, I liked T20 more due to faster HoPo gain.

[Deleted]

Me personally, I liked T20 more due to faster HoPo gain.

t21 @30+% haste, almost no downtime.
t20 issue was wasted BoJ procs, aka DPS-loss due to RNG.

but still dissappointing, cuz the final tier set is as boring as most others. t18 had the most "class fantasy" :D

[Morally Grey Storm]

t21 @30+% haste, almost no downtime.
t20 issue was wasted BoJ procs, aka DPS-loss due to RNG.

but still dissappointing, cuz the final tier set is as boring as most others. t18 had the most "class fantasy"

to be frank, Ret t 21 is not as bad as some of the others.
f.e. Arms t21 is pure garbage, providing miniscule dps gain and forcing into a shitty talent choice to get even that.

[Deleted]

to be frank, Ret t 21 is not as bad as some of the others.
f.e. Arms t21 is pure garbage, providing miniscule dps gain and forcing into a shitty talent choice to get even that.

deficient contrasts still dont upgrade average design to premium. for the last Tier set i expected something spectacular, a set-bonus worthy to remember like t18.

btw - what talent choices does ret have?
Greater Jugdement is mandatory now, wonder why there is still no nerf, cuz Crusade was mandatory, cuz Divine Purpose was underperforming. so Crusade had to be nerfed and still is mandatory.

[Eurytos]

deficient contrasts still dont upgrade average design to premium. for the last Tier set i expected something spectacular, a set-bonus worthy to remember like t18.

btw - what talent choices does ret have?
Greater Jugdement is mandatory now, wonder why there is still no nerf, cuz Crusade was mandatory, cuz Divine Purpose was underperforming. so Crusade had to be nerfed and still is mandatory.

When did Greater Judgment become mandatory?

[Morally Grey Storm]

When did Greater Judgment become mandatory?

With introduction of t21.

[xxcloud417xx]

When did Greater Judgment become mandatory?

The 2pc T21 is when you use Greater Judgement and start to shift your gear into Mastery > all other stats (still want that 31.25%ish haste though)

If you compare the raw effect of T20 and T21, then yes T20 is better. In fact early onset of Antorus you were best off to use belt+Soul, and use 4set T20 and 2set T21 for maximum effectiveness.

The issue though is that my T20 pieces were much lower ilvl than Mythic T21 and the cloak+soul combo IS better (moreso now with the Mastery prioritization due to T21's 2pc bonus).

I don't remember what ilvl I reached where I simmed myself and it became better to just run 4set T21 and drop the T20 altogether, (I'm several weeks into Mythic now and sitting at 977 so it's been awhile) but eventually you'll have to do it because raw ilvl and the cloak are just going to out-damage the double tier set bonus.

[Sigxy]

I much more prefer 4-piece tier 20. Getting 3 HoPo instead of 2 from that ability makes it feel so, so much nicer.

[krille20]

I too prefer T20 over T21 but I have a full tier of T21 and there's no way in hell I'm doing mythic tomb to maybe get a titanforged tier piece for some extra minor dps. And besides, T21 for ret ain't that bad. Much worse for other specs from what I've seen.

[Talvindius]

My ret is currently 944 equipped using T20 4p (heroic ilvl, 3 915s and 1 920, unlucky) and 2p t21 cuz im using belt/highlord ring. I've been doing more damage than every similarly geared ret running full heroic 4p t21 even with the ilvl difference. I dont even have panth trink/scourgewing.

I think something kind of forgotten is that there's quite an itemization change from T20 to T21, that being mastery is very very good in T21 and garbage for T20. My current gear has nearly no mastery so I'm statted really well. I've seen quite a few Rets in T21 that are running haste/crit or haste/vers gear and I'm pretty sure that's incorrect.

[Ryuji]

My ret is currently 944 equipped using T20 4p (heroic ilvl, 3 915s and 1 920, unlucky) and 2p t21 cuz im using belt/highlord ring. I've been doing more damage than every similarly geared ret running full heroic 4p t21 even with the ilvl difference. I dont even have panth trink/scourgewing.

I think something kind of forgotten is that there's quite an itemization change from T20 to T21, that being mastery is very very good in T21 and garbage for T20. My current gear has nearly no mastery so I'm statted really well. I've seen quite a few Rets in T21 that are running haste/crit or haste/vers gear and I'm pretty sure that's incorrect.

What pieces of T21 do you have? Pretty sure 945 T21 with cloak and highlord ring vs. 915 T20 without cloak wouldn't be as good.

[Talvindius]

What pieces of T21 do you have? Pretty sure 945 T21 with cloak and highlord ring vs. 915 T20 without cloak wouldn't be as good.

Im running Helm and shoulders for T21. TBH they were both the same ilvl as the non tier I was using so it was just a straight damage increase to get the 2p. I also havn't invested any rerolls into getting new tier, I've been rolling hard on scourgewing and gorshalach cuz my trinkets are bad. Not lucky enough to have panth trink yet.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

I just got the highlord ring last night (from 1000 essences) i was soooo happy.

I'm currently using 4P T20 and 2P T21. The holy power generation is crazy and i get what some of you say when BoJ procs but you already got full hopo so it gets wasted.

I havent tried 4P T21 yet even tho i got the gear for it, not sure if im ready to drop T20.... Judgement does have a rather long cooldown to make the 4P bonus on T21 feel good. Anyone feel slow rotation with 4P T21?

[Deleted]

I just got the highlord ring last night (from 1000 essences) i was soooo happy.

I'm currently using 4P T20 and 2P T21. The holy power generation is crazy and i get what some of you say when BoJ procs but you already got full hopo so it gets wasted.

I havent tried 4P T21 yet even tho i got the gear for it, not sure if im ready to drop T20.... Judgement does have a rather long cooldown to make the 4P bonus on T21 feel good. Anyone feel slow rotation with 4P T21?

Well, Judgment have a longer cooldown than Blade of justice, but not by far. but, with the Blade of Wrath proc, yes T21 4P is a bit behind T20 4P.

But in my opinion, it feels good too. At first, it feel weird and you need a little time to adapt not having 3 HoPo on Blade of justice, but I don't find the gameplay really slower. And when you are used at using this bonus, it doesn't feel weird anymore.