Are Monks, Druids, and Death Knights actually Shamans?

[Deleted]

Sorry if this was discussed already; I searched and didn't find anything concerning it.
I know this sounds silly, but there's actually quite a lot of things pointing to it.

1) Aside from the 4 prime elements (fire, earth, air and water), there's actually 2 more; Spirit and Decay

2) Spirit is the 5th element, that connects all living things.
3)It allows the elements to communicate with each other. Azeroths' elements are chaotic because the world soul consumed most of the spirit on the planet. Draenor has tons of spirit, and the elements are in harmony with each other.
4) Spirit also allows mortals to talk with the elements, and looking at 3), this explains while thrall was able to use such strong shamanistic magics on AU draenor, and why he went to draenor during cataclysm to train.
5) Spirit also allows to communicate with oneself. The ones that do so are Monks, when they meditate. Ki is actually just another word for spirit.
6) Spirit is the connecting force between all life. The emerald dream is a plane where plant and animal live exists in it's rawform. Therefore, the most central element of shamanism is deeply linked with the emerald dream, the focal point of druidism. This point, combined with the fact that druids use wind, water and earth magics, makes another strong case that druids are shamans.

7) Decay is the 6th element, and the counterpart of spirit.
8) Where spirit connects all living beings, decay explains the path from live to death, and death itself.
9) Where spirit is linked with the emerald dream and your everyday loas, decay is linked with the shadowlands (the world you are in during corpseruns) and evil creatures like hakkar, or loa of dead trolls (bwomsambi).
10) Where spirit allows a shaman to ask the elements for their help, Employing decay allows to force elements to do their bidding. This is considered dark shamanism.


So basically, monks are shamans focussing mainly on the 5th element (spirit/ki) to gain clarity over their own body and mind.

Druids are shamans that developed their 5th element to communicate with wild animals and plantlive, as well as some elemental magic too, including even some fire magic (especially the firelands druids).

Shamans use the element to gain access to elemental magics in a polite way, and use the 6th element to commune with the spirits of the wild and their ancestors.

Dark Shamans use the 6th element instead of the 5th one to use elemental magics, and since the elements themselves are living beings and dont mingle well with the element that represents death, the result is twisted and impure (rotten earth, poisonous water, foul winds etc).

Death Knights, now here it gets interesting! They are actually dark shamans!
- Death and Decay, need I say more?
- Frost magics might be decayed water magics, and maybe the reason shamans dont use frost much.
- Blood magic is also used by Hakkar, a dark loa
- The above mentioned rotten earth, poisonous water, foul winds and the like => diseases
- Ner'zhul, the Lich King, used to be a dark shaman
- Communicating with the dead (spirits)
- Guldan, a former shaman, created the wcII death knights, most likely with dark shamanism => necromancy = dark shamanism

All the above seems to indicate that one and the same person, with an all encompassing understanding of shamanism, could harness the forces of 4 different classes.

What do you think?

[Magistrate]

They're not. It's interesting to think about, but you're just casting a wide net.

[A Chozo]

Sure bro.

Priests are shamans of the two major forces of the universe: Light and Void.

[Lyssander]

Classes refer mostly to certain skillsets - for example demon hunter is not a warlock despite both of them using fel magic.

[Kwento]

It’s a way nature magic is used.
I think in RPG books they explained difference between a shaman and a druid through druid not needing totems because he is a part of nature and not just communicating with it.
Of course RPG books aren’t canon anymore, but I do think that this might still be a logical deference between these two classes.

[Khaza-R]

Sure, if you want to use a broad definition of seeing Shaman as "people who use elements".

Similarly you can call Hunters, "warriors with bows" if you want to be purposely obtuse.

[Ealyssa]

Classes aren't defined by what magic they use. But by how they use it.

[Piamonte]

Sorry if this was discussed already; I searched and didn't find anything concerning it.
I know this sounds silly, but there's actually quite a lot of things pointing to it.

1) Aside from the 4 prime elements (fire, earth, air and water), there's actually 2 more; Spirit and Decay

2) Spirit is the 5th element, that connects all living things.
3)It allows the elements to communicate with each other. Azeroths' elements are chaotic because the world soul consumed most of the spirit on the planet. Draenor has tons of spirit, and the elements are in harmony with each other.
4) Spirit also allows mortals to talk with the elements, and looking at 3), this explains while thrall was able to use such strong shamanistic magics on AU draenor, and why he went to draenor during cataclysm to train.
5) Spirit also allows to communicate with oneself. The ones that do so are Monks, when they meditate. Ki is actually just another word for spirit.
6) Spirit is the connecting force between all life. The emerald dream is a plane where plant and animal live exists in it's rawform. Therefore, the most central element of shamanism is deeply linked with the emerald dream, the focal point of druidism. This point, combined with the fact that druids use wind, water and earth magics, makes another strong case that druids are shamans.

7) Decay is the 6th element, and the counterpart of spirit.
8) Where spirit connects all living beings, decay explains the path from live to death, and death itself.
9) Where spirit is linked with the emerald dream and your everyday loas, decay is linked with the shadowlands (the world you are in during corpseruns) and evil creatures like hakkar, or loa of dead trolls (bwomsambi).
10) Where spirit allows a shaman to ask the elements for their help, Employing decay allows to force elements to do their bidding. This is considered dark shamanism.


So basically, monks are shamans focussing mainly on the 5th element (spirit/ki) to gain clarity over their own body and mind.

Druids are shamans that developed their 5th element to communicate with wild animals and plantlive, as well as some elemental magic too, including even some fire magic (especially the firelands druids).

Shamans use the element to gain access to elemental magics in a polite way, and use the 6th element to commune with the spirits of the wild and their ancestors.

Dark Shamans use the 6th element instead of the 5th one to use elemental magics, and since the elements themselves are living beings and dont mingle well with the element that represents death, the result is twisted and impure (rotten earth, poisonous water, foul winds etc).

Death Knights, now here it gets interesting! They are actually dark shamans!
- Death and Decay, need I say more?
- Frost magics might be decayed water magics, and maybe the reason shamans dont use frost much.
- Blood magic is also used by Hakkar, a dark loa
- The above mentioned rotten earth, poisonous water, foul winds and the like => diseases
- Ner'zhul, the Lich King, used to be a dark shaman
- Communicating with the dead (spirits)
- Guldan, a former shaman, created the wcII death knights, most likely with dark shamanism => necromancy = dark shamanism

All the above seems to indicate that one and the same person, with an all encompassing understanding of shamanism, could harness the forces of 4 different classes.

What do you think?

a shaman has to commune with the elements to get power, death knights, druids and monks dont have to

[Socialhealer]

a shaman has to commune with the elements to get power, death knights, druids and monks dont have to

i thought shamans had to beg blizzard for their power after every expansion because they fucked them over leaving them awful lmao.

[Techno-Druid]

Monks are pretty much just a form of shaman that draw from the spirit within their body and incorporates that into martial arts.

[killwithpwr]

Classes aren't defined by what magic they use. But by how they use it.

This...

Like there is a distiction between Paladins and Priests, allthough they both use the Light... And Warriors and Hunters, though they both use physicality...

[Deleted]

Interesting responses. I think I like the explanations about how a specific type of magic is used mattering most, but I disagree still.

I mean; if you use a smithing hammer to hit someone in the head, does it turn into a warhammer suddenly? It's still the same item, though it's way of usage changed, the hammer is still the hammer.

Priests started to use the light first. They then taught it to knights/warriors/fighters which combined it with armed combat => paladins. Hence, calling paladins battlepriests sounds not wrong to me.
Warlocks used fel first. Demonhunters infused that warlock magic into their bodies to strenghten themselves, but it is still warlock magics nontheless. Illidan consumed Guldans' Skull (a warlocks' essence), obtaining warlock magic to enhance his martial abilities.
Mages used arcane first. If warriors started complimenting their fighting with it, we would get battlemages, or spellbreakers, or whatever. They would still be mages though.
Shamans used elemental magic/shamanism first. Monks, Druids and Death Knights seem to use either spirit or decay as basis for their magic. They developed special niche skills within the wide spectrum of shamanism, but it's still shamanism at the core (if my theory is correct, anyway).

Shamanism also already includes many different classes already; Spiritwalkers, Geomancers, Farseers, Oracles, Witchdoctors, Shadowhunters ...
It is really an umbrella term for spirit magic. Since I would confuse people speaking of spiritualists though, I decided to stick to Shamans.

As for warriors/hunters: You are thinking in in-game terms, not lore ones.
Lore-wise, the tauren civilisation for example has included the great hunt into a ritual of initiation for every coming of age Tauren. Even if they decide to choose the axe, the totem or the pelt later on, they are still trained hunters, lore-wise.
Like-wise, any tauren trains self defense growing up, and can be considered a reserve warrior, even if they decide to become merchants later.

Ret/Prot paladins, Havoc/Vegencance Demon Hunters, Enhancement Shamans, Monks do basically the same a warrior does, but enhanced with magics. If you go by lore, a regular warrior is inferior to a magic using one. Again, not related to ingame class balance and such.

- - - Updated - - -

i thought shamans had to beg blizzard for their power after every expansion because they fucked them over leaving them awful lmao.

And blizzard is ice magic => water magic => elements
In other words, there is bound to be more game developing companies ment to complete the circle!

Sad that mages cant spec improved blizzard anymore to solve our problems.

[Dannihilate]

All the above seems to indicate that one and the same person, with an all encompassing understanding of shamanism, could harness the forces of 4 different classes.

What do you think?

This is actually really interesting to think about, and very broadly, I think you're on the right track.

[Polybius]

Maybe in our reality, but not in WoW. I guess you can say they're branches or offshoots of spiritualism.

[Lyssander]

Interesting responses. I think I like the explanations about how a specific type of magic is used mattering most, but I disagree still.

I mean; if you use a smithing hammer to hit someone in the head, does it turn into a warhammer suddenly? It's still the same item, though it's way of usage changed, the hammer is still the hammer.

Priests started to use the light first. They then taught it to knights/warriors/fighters which combined it with armed combat => paladins. Hence, calling paladins battlepriests sounds not wrong to me.
Warlocks used fel first. Demonhunters infused that warlock magic into their bodies to strenghten themselves, but it is still warlock magics nontheless. Illidan consumed Guldans' Skull (a warlocks' essence), obtaining warlock magic to enhance his martial abilities.
Mages used arcane first. If warriors started complimenting their fighting with it, we would get battlemages, or spellbreakers, or whatever. They would still be mages though.
Shamans used elemental magic/shamanism first. Monks, Druids and Death Knights seem to use either spirit or decay as basis for their magic. They developed special niche skills within the wide spectrum of shamanism, but it's still shamanism at the core (if my theory is correct, anyway).

Shamanism also already includes many different classes already; Spiritwalkers, Geomancers, Farseers, Oracles, Witchdoctors, Shadowhunters ...
It is really an umbrella term for spirit magic. Since I would confuse people speaking of spiritualists though, I decided to stick to Shamans.

As for warriors/hunters: You are thinking in in-game terms, not lore ones.
Lore-wise, the tauren civilisation for example has included the great hunt into a ritual of initiation for every coming of age Tauren. Even if they decide to choose the axe, the totem or the pelt later on, they are still trained hunters, lore-wise.
Like-wise, any tauren trains self defense growing up, and can be considered a reserve warrior, even if they decide to become merchants later.

Ret/Prot paladins, Havoc/Vegencance Demon Hunters, Enhancement Shamans, Monks do basically the same a warrior does, but enhanced with magics. If you go by lore, a regular warrior is inferior to a magic using one. Again, not related to ingame class balance and such.

- - - Updated - - -



And blizzard is ice magic => water magic => elements
In other words, there is bound to be more game developing companies ment to complete the circle!

Sad that mages cant spec improved blizzard anymore to solve our problems.

Well, if you really want to generalise than all classes are just warriors.

Warrior - the supreame class.
Rogue - warrior with shit armor.
Palladin - shiny warrior.
Death Knight - smelly warrior.
Demon Hunter - warrior with exesive edge.
Shaman - rainman warrior.
Priest - shiny/shady warrior that dont even.
Hunter - warrior with a pet.
Druid - warrior that's a pet.
Mage - smart warrior.
Monk - drunken warrior.
Warlock - Warrior wih less rior more lock.

Jokes aside they are about as "in essence" the same as a proktologist and a botanist are the same - both work with biological things, but are they all that related?

[Kwento]

The core difference are the way shamans cast their spells, or the “calls”. Shamans do not have a dominion over nature, they work with it, asking for the help of elements. Forcing the elements is considered a sacrilege and leads to dark shamanism.
Druids, on the other hand, don’t have to ask for power. One way or another (used to be that they were described to be in such a unison with the world that they didn’t even have to ask) they are able to use natural and elemental resources as they see fit.
Apart from that, while druid magic and monk traditions heavily rely on the element of Life, shamans are usually described having an issue contacting it.

[RangerDaz]

Well, Gul'dan and Ner'zhul were Shamans and abandoned their shamanistic connection to the elements (well maybe except fire) to become warlocks... How do you insert that in your theory?

[Deleted]

Druids, on the other hand, don’t have to ask for power.

They serve elune, and are rewarded, afaik. They dont get hand outs for nothing. Shamans serve the elements' interests. That's why they withdrew support from thrall, for acting dishonorable in a mag-gorah. Also, wasn't there a druid quests lvl 10 or so for bearform where you have to talk to animal spirits to gain their favor or something?
The very concept of a class all about being in a symbiotic relationship with nature being able to take from it in whatever ways they pleased sounds counterintuitive for me, but I'll dig and see if I can find anything on it. Not that familiar with druid lore, if I'm honest.

Apart from that, while druid magic and monk traditions heavily rely on the element of Life, shamans are usually described having an issue contacting it.

The reason for should be that the element is scarce on azeroth (the world soul consumed most of it).
Since the emerald dream is the subconcious of the world soul and simultaneously central for druidism, some people theorised that elune is actually Azeroth, the world soul, comunicating with mortals.
An explanation could be that druids use spirit, but after the absortion and alteration by the world soul, which changes it's nature.
Another thing to consider is that titans are naturally arcane, which would indicate that druids are to some degree mages too. They do use some arcane spells so yeah.

Maybe druidism is to practice shamanism through an arcane filter .
Would be kinda ironic though that nightelves outlawed tapping into arcane powers (azeroth's blood) and then continued to draw power from her anyway, in the form of elune.

[VyersReaver]

Dark Shamans are not using the 6th element, they are using the first four with strongarming the fifth, instead of communicating with it.

[Justpassing]

Well I guess you could call humans tall gnomes too.