Are we losing the Moon spells in BfA?

[Mythicalchicken]

I've wanted StFl to apply empowerment forever, but I see the point about it being crazy for single target, and having it apply percentages of empowerment is really confusing without an addon tracking it.

Just something's got to give with that talent. I love the spell. I want to use it. I almost never can. Dogs are one instance, and I had some of my best parses for High Command with it given how my raid approaches the encounter (i.e. mobs all over the bloody place).

Giving the single target concerns, I could see it applying empowerment with a substantial AP cost increase in its current position -- realistically removing ability for starfall and being on par with starsurge.

Putting moving it to MoonMoon's place in the talents and making it an AP generator with a CD to percent absurd AOE gains in multitarget is another option.

Consolidating the AOE talents and ST talents into respective rows -- yes please. I hate having to choose one or the other.

[lappee]

You could sure game it for ST dmg but I don't see it being that big issue. You'd potentially be able to have up at 14 targets with 0 haste (2 globals for main target dots) and have massive Moonfire/Sunfire on the main target but losing all other spells from your rotation. This also assumes infinite AsP which just isn't the case in reality.

There are alot of numbers one can tweak with such mechanic on Stellar Flare and it is pretty much impossible for us to do anything on that regard before we know what Blizzard actually wants to do with the talents in the same row (Purely AoE talents, AoE talents with a pinch of ST effect, mismatch like it currently is etc.). Its better to find other alternatives or think of tweak for other talents than trying to get numbers right.

[Polarthief]

TBH I'd prefer to just see StFl be the combined DoT of Moonfire+Sunfire while getting some kind of benefit (like + damage or something). Going back to single-target Moonfires will be annoying with LATC gone.

[Malmmoc]

Going back to single-target Moonfires will be annoying with LATC gone.

To me, definitely less fun, and the last thing we need is more ramp up time.

[wing5wong]

But do you really want less buttons?
Applying both dots will only affect single target. Unless it also gave moonfire aoe application. That would likely be ridiculous for any aoe

[Pickynerd]

But do you really want less buttons?
Applying both dots will only affect single target. Unless it also gave moonfire aoe application. That would likely be ridiculous for any aoe

I haven't played Bfa at all, but it now looks like we have too much UI.

[kaid]

Literally only things changing with FoE is mastery scaling and babysitting mode. The CD, the burst damage, all were there and the only thing lacking was proper scaling.

Well that and the management to keep building AP fast during FoE was annoying as well. The current build on BfA I think is probably a better design for it big AP cost but once its out there you are not having to do any kind of rotational gymnastics to keep it going. So a lot easier to use for burst AOE type situations in theory.

[Zaganite]

Since the changes I've gone back to play abit with my balance druid and I for one am happy with the changes!

We got moon moon back which I couldnt be happier about and the change to FoE is a good one! I like the rotation so far in BfA (or well the one I have going for me) and it doesnt feel boring or stagnant like it did before these changes. Overall Im happy with it as it is but there are a lot more improvements that could be made but quit while we are somewhat ahead!

- - - Updated - - -

Well that and the management to keep building AP fast during FoE was annoying as well.

And this! It didnot feel good before if you lagged and all of a sudden FoE failed because you got a crappy spike and all your hard work to keep it going ended in a snap

[Deleted]

I don't like that the Moon spell is a talent with a 30 sec recharge time. For me, the recharge time is way too long. It would be fine if it was a baseline spell, because then you could choose a different talent at that row. With a 30 sec recharge time I don't know if it worth it (I'm talking about fun gameplay, not dps/numbers). Even if you choose the moon talent, I think the rotation will feel kinda stale and boring. The recharge time is doubled compared to live and you need to sarcrifice one of the other talents for it. Even with the moon talent balance druid will spam wrath most of the time, and a lunar strike or two.

About Fury of Elune, I think the cd is too long if you look at the build up (80 astral power) and the 8 second duration. Sure, the live version is poorly done, but if you play it right you can use it for like 20 sec. In m+, is the new FoE worth it? 8 sec of burst aoe on one pack and then wait 1.5 min. And you will sacrifice aoe damage on other packs by not choosing stellar drift as a talent. Sure, starfall doesn't do as much damage as FoE, but with stellar drift you will have enough pressure on every pack. Two starfalls cost as much as one FoE. And you can stack starfalls. I don't think it will be worth it considering the high AP cost, the short duration and the long CD. With FoE you will have 8 sec of burst and then 1.5 min of mediocrity. Sure, maybe it will be useful on some of the raid bosses that spawns adds that can be stacked. But how many bosses will do that?

I'm skeptical but I really hope I'm wrong.

[Polarthief]

But do you really want less buttons?
Applying both dots will only affect single target. Unless it also gave moonfire aoe application. That would likely be ridiculous for any aoe

It would combine the two DoTs, so it would retain Sunfire's AoE cleaving capability.

I also wouldn't necessarily mind combining the two buttons. I press them both around ~20s anyway. Not asking for a prune but just the option would be nice instead of the AWFUL iteration we have for StFl atm.

[lappee]

TBH I'd prefer to just see StFl be the combined DoT of Moonfire+Sunfire while getting some kind of benefit (like + damage or something). Going back to single-target Moonfires will be annoying with LATC gone.

To me, definitely less fun, and the last thing we need is more ramp up time.

People need to get away from thinking that "Can't do AoE if all dots aren't in place". You're doing good AoE when you get Sunfire and Starfall going, thats pretty much instant if the mobs are packed. Moonfires are going the extra mile to get super AoE if you can keep the AsP requirements up for Starfall (aka if you're using Shooting Star)

Well that and the management to keep building AP fast during FoE was annoying as well. The current build on BfA I think is probably a better design for it big AP cost but once its out there you are not having to do any kind of rotational gymnastics to keep it going. So a lot easier to use for burst AOE type situations in theory.

Its easier to use design, building AP to keep FoE going was where the skill came in. You had to predict when you could use it to gain maximal effect. Although that playstyle had more impact in Legion, due to having much faster AsP generation, it would still be more interesting in BfA than just fire and forget spell. Specially when you lose the ability to move the spell (noticeable inconvenience during leveling & scenarios, not so much in dungeons)

Anyway Blizzard made their decision and I've made my opinion on the change very clear, now this topic just feels like beating a dead horse as we're not getting any new info or views on it.

[Deleted]

Balance Druid AOE should be about multidotting but we don't want the ramp up time to be so long that it is useless. Keeping the balance between Multidotting having too long ramp up time and applying all dots too fast so we end up not spending much time casting them is important. I think Legion found a good balance with sunfire having a 10y radius and LatC making Moonfire hit 2 targets and I would like to see something similar moving forward. I don't think the 8y sunfire radius on its own will be enough, I think we also need LatC or Moonfire will be useless after more than a few targets.

[dreamdaddy]

Destro has a talent that's gives them a long cast, 30sec CD spell to do a burst of AoE damage and apply immolates to targets that it hits. Replacing Warrior of Elune with something like this that applies Moonfire would be a cool part of our kit, but it would just exacerbate the problem with our talents being clearcut AoE/ST talents with no margin for choice outside of cookie cutter builds.

[Qck]

Destro has a talent that's gives them a long cast, 30sec CD spell to do a burst of AoE damage and apply immolates to targets that it hits. Replacing Warrior of Elune with something like this that applies Moonfire would be a cool part of our kit, but it would just exacerbate the problem with our talents being clearcut AoE/ST talents with no margin for choice outside of cookie cutter builds.

SPriest has the same thing with Dark Void.

[Polarthief]

Moonfires are going the extra mile to get super AoE if you can keep the AsP requirements up for Starfall (aka if you're using Shooting Star)

Two points of contention here:
1. Not using Moonfire is a 6% loss to Lunar Strike, Starsurge, and Starfall damage (at least in Legion. CI should hopefully fuck right off in BfA)
2. Why the hell wouldn't you be using ShS on an AoE fight? It should be assumed you have it.

Balance Druid AOE should be about multidotting but we don't want the ramp up time to be so long that it is useless. Keeping the balance between Multidotting having too long ramp up time and applying all dots too fast so we end up not spending much time casting them is important. I think Legion found a good balance with sunfire having a 10y radius and LatC making Moonfire hit 2 targets and I would like to see something similar moving forward. I don't think the 8y sunfire radius on its own will be enough, I think we also need LatC or Moonfire will be useless after more than a few targets.

Yeah, Balance feels like it's intended to be between a Shadow Priest out of form and in form, in that your DoTs should be doing a lot of the legwork (practically all of it for out-of-form SPriest), but your direct damage matters too (SPriest in-form), but the ramp-up is just really annoying, especially from CI (thank fuck that shit's going away) and trying to get DoTs on everything.

Our DoTs are NOT as powerful as other classes without a Starfall down, and with one, well, they can run out of it. I still think the ramp up is pretty shitty.

[Lahis]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnd beta.


Not too happy about the situation right now. :/

[Lucrece]

Destro has a talent that's gives them a long cast, 30sec CD spell to do a burst of AoE damage and apply immolates to targets that it hits. Replacing Warrior of Elune with something like this that applies Moonfire would be a cool part of our kit, but it would just exacerbate the problem with our talents being clearcut AoE/ST talents with no margin for choice outside of cookie cutter builds.

Cataclysm is total shit next to fire and brimstone. All it does is apply immolate which is worse than 40% incinerate cleave to all other targets and massively increased shard regen to get rains of fire rolling.

I wouldn't look at destro for aoe suggestion because the spec is hot garbage in the aoe department.

[exochaft]

Yeah, Balance feels like it's intended to be between a Shadow Priest out of form and in form, in that your DoTs should be doing a lot of the legwork (practically all of it for out-of-form SPriest), but your direct damage matters too (SPriest in-form), but the ramp-up is just really annoying, especially from CI (thank fuck that shit's going away) and trying to get DoTs on everything.

Our DoTs are NOT as powerful as other classes without a Starfall down, and with one, well, they can run out of it. I still think the ramp up is pretty shitty.

And this is where I think StFl would make the perfect candidate for said scenarios. Was a little late to the party when it came to the discussion (yay RL stuff), but a self-empowering StFl could accomplish turning our AoE into a non-stationary AoE as a talent choice. With respect to the concerns about abuse in ST situations, etc., you could easily adjust it via AsP costs and damage of StFl itself (could even have StFl damage itself scale with the number of StFl's you have active instead of messing with empowerment %), and I'd rather focus on the role of the ability instead. Even StFl combining MF/SF into one spell or cleaving all DoTs could make StFl fill the role of less ramp-up time in AoE situations. As it stands, StFl is heavily reliant on legendaries to work well enough to consider taking, and once targets get spread out it's pretty worthless... plus it doesn't really improve quality of life or alter how we AoE, you're still multidotting and hoping everything stays in Starfall.

[Polarthief]

Having said that, we're close to finished with the changes to the rotations and the look and feel for most specs. We’ve still got a few changes coming soon in the Beta to Unholy Death Knights, Frost Death Knights, and Protection Warriors.

Can I do the "I was right, you were wrong" dance yet to the asses on the Discord?

"BETA IS BETA IT'S NOT OVER YET!" Yeah, keep telling yourselves that even when 8.0 is live

Sauce

[Lahis]

Yeeeee-up.

And before someone quotes

While it's certainly possible that feedback on how Azerite affects a certain spec could lead us to do further development on that spec's rotation

remember what comes right after it:

we don't expect to need any big changes to talents that would justify the words "severe" or "overhaul".

And given how little they did with druids to begin with, the shit is done in their eyes.


Man, to respec or not to respec?