Is the talent system a real choice system?

[Silvereyes1372]

Just curious about your opinion about the current talent system.

It's like that (for war at least )

Damage / Damage / Damage
Utility / Utility / Utility
Damage / Damage /Damage
Utility / Utility / Utility
Damage / Damage / Damage
Damage / Damage / Damage
Damage / Damage / Damage

but in this current iteration , we only choose the best utilty / dps talent in the row for the current fight.

Won't it be a better choice to choose between Dps and Utility (CC / surv / mobility). It feel like a real sacrifice to drop all your utility talent for more dps.

Something like that : damage / utility / utility.

( Sry for my bad english it's not my primary language <3 )

[Kieldon]

I think its always 2 rows utility, 5 rows damage. At least for damage specs. I don't mind the way it works, only thing that bothers me is that there are so many talents that hardly fit any situation. I for example prefer to play without any kind of pet or demon or whatever.

For MM hunter there is really only one choice in one tier - play without a pet. The other two talents are just not worth for almost any situation.

Frost Mage - again, the best talent by far is just to abandon the frost elemental.

Warlocks - this one bother me. A choice to abandon demons is not worth for most situations.

I think these talents should really reflect a specific playstyle and be on the same level of usefulness but I just don't know how that could happen.

[A Chozo]

Well, keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase won't chose a talent per fight, but they'll try to fit their favorite playstyle.

In that regards, this talent system got all the choices. Bob the Arms Warrior and Lisa the Arms Warrior could have very different playstyle intentions and this would show in their talent choice!

[omeomorfismo]

to choose only

damage
damage
damage
damage
damage

exactly in the same way of legion legendaries?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Not really, no. Most of the time, there is one good answer and the others are extremely situational. Other times you can choose some sort of utility, but if you're pvping, for instance, there will still be a best answer. If you're pveing... sometimes your "choices" won't help on bosses at all.

[Mirishka]

It very much presents choices, based on the situation.

As a dps in a raid, sure, you're generally going to go with 'damage damage damage' talents. But out on your own, or doing things like the challenge towers, you're likely to look at utility. Stuff that increases mobility or your ability to heal/leech, etc.

Are there adds on the fight? Take the talents that increase AOE. No adds? Use the talents that bolster single-target damage. Is there a critical burst/burn phase? That's where talents like Avatar shine.

While switching the talents is a pain in the ass unless you have stacks of tomes, they often present good situational decision making and I find myself changing things up quite often depending on the class/encounter.

[Kokolums]

Yes it offers choice. The flaw is that raid bosses are scripted encounters which means cookie cutter builds emerge. If bosses had 1-2 set mechanics and then drew 3-4 mechanics from a random pool of 200 that changed every pull and could not be known before they were cast midfight, cookie cutter builds would die.

[Deleted]

Is too much controlled and balanced around the Blizzard's vision.
Doesnt give you wings for imagination and theorycrafting the majority of the times.

Makes it less of a RPG in my opinion.

Best talents were the ones from WotlK IMO.

[Silvereyes1372]

Are there adds on the fight? Take the talents that increase AOE. No adds? Use the talents that bolster single-target damage. Is there a critical burst/burn phase? That's where talents like Avatar shine.

Yes but for me those "choices" are more dictated by the encounter than u. As an exemple a real choice would be : should i take the 50% reduct dmg talent or if i'm confident that i will avoid all those one shoot mecanic take the 20% dmg boost ? (completly random numbers obv)

[exochaft]

Depends on the talents and class/spec. We generally hear about the obvious choices, where one talent in a row dominates in every feasible situation. We hear less about talents that generally change depending upon the fights (not all classes even need to change their spec for different fights to min/max). We almost don't hear anything about talents designed for varying skilled people, as they are far and few between.

There will always be a correct answer for a talent when it comes to damage output, and the varying combat situations tend to shift the power of talents around for most classes. When it comes to min/maxing, choice in talents is usually an illusion except when the choice depends upon your role in an encounter and/or skill level (maybe gear, too, stupid legendaries). There are rare occasions where player preference can occur, but either the talents have little impact in damage output or the difference in talents is small comparatively. The most choice one will likely have is utility/movement talents. If Blizz can get most talents pretty close in damage output, non-min/maxing allows more playstyle choice... unfortunately, many talents are not really close, and some are drastically unbalanced.

[Spacewalrus2010]

but in this current iteration , we only choose the best utilty / dps talent in the row for the current fight.

Won't it be a better choice to choose between Dps and Utility (CC / surv / mobility). It feel like a real sacrifice to drop all your utility talent for more dps.

Something like that : damage / utility / utility.

There would be the same "issue" where certain people would just go 100% damage talents. The very same people who feel locked in today's current talent choices will feel obligated to do go all damage. Even if say blizzard could balance around fights needing certain utility talents, then a couple issues I foresee:

1) The mechanics would need to be unavoidable, otherwise the choice will default to the damage dealing talent. If not, comments similar to "git gud" will come into play.

2) Creating enough utility spells that can help deal with these new mechanics while not all of them feeling to similar. 30+ specs each with at least few utility talents to be used on multiple bosses sounds almost impossible.

Right now, I think it's fine. For those like me, I choose what I enjoy. For those who feel forced to choose certain talents...well it's never not going to feel forced imo.

[Morg]

There won't be any real 'choice' whilst things such as logs and dps meters exist or you just don't give a shit.

[Schattenlied]

Just curious about your opinion about the current talent system.

It's like that (for war at least )

Damage / Damage / Damage
Utility / Utility / Utility
Damage / Damage /Damage
Utility / Utility / Utility
Damage / Damage / Damage
Damage / Damage / Damage
Damage / Damage / Damage

but in this current iteration , we only choose the best utilty / dps talent in the row for the current fight.

Won't it be a better choice to choose between Dps and Utility (CC / surv / mobility). It feel like a real sacrifice to drop all your utility talent for more dps.

Something like that : damage / utility / utility.

( Sry for my bad english it's not my primary language <3 )

Only damage would ever be picked, so no, that's not a better choice... That's no choice at all.

The only system that can actually be defined as choice is the one we're getting in BFA, where talent rows are just different ways of doing a particular type (row is ST only, or row is AoE only) of damage... Because then you actually get to choose, it's never forced on you by the fight mechanics.

[Toppy]

Far more options than the old system for sure.

[Marrilaife]

The talent system exists atm to make you pay a scribe tax and bring a stack of tomes to the raid. Unless you're a lucky spec that doesn't have to swap talents per-fight basis. Show which specs Blizzard wanted to tax harder, on top of your usual flask and repair bill.

[Gestopft]

There won't be any real 'choice' whilst things such as logs and dps meters exist or you just don't give a shit.

Pretty much this: if min-maxing or optimizing is your concern, there has never been a choice. In any iteration of the talent system.

[s_bushido]

There won't be any real 'choice' whilst things such as logs and dps meters exist or you just don't give a shit.

Exactly this. Regardless of the system, so long as players can parse their performance there will always be cookie cutter builds. If it were possible for a dev team to balance dozens of options across dozens of specs so that the only difference is preferential rather than mathematical, maybe we would have more meaningful choices...but I just don't see that happening.

[Deleted]

It's a terrible system. Only reason it's still in the game is because Blizz doesn't want to accept another blow to their ego.

Yes but for me those "choices" are more dictated by the encounter than u. As an exemple a real choice would be : should i take the 50% reduct dmg talent or if i'm confident that i will avoid all those one shoot mecanic take the 20% dmg boost ? (completly random numbers obv)

this would indeed be a much more interesting system. blizz won't put it in though because then they would have to balance again, and they hate that. they rather control everything these days.

[Lollis]

I really dislike the talent system. I understand why they changed it, but even still I just hate it.

Every spec should be able to use every ability relevant to the spec, talents should be like they used to be: they buff a specific playstyle. If I want to use cinderstorm and meteor as a supposed master of fucking fire magic, I should be able to.

There are certain abilities that could remain locked as a talent such as big cooldowns but the whole system of locking people into using a limited number of abilities is total shit.

[Jastall]

I think it does, but could be better.

As Fury for example, the choice between Warpaint (5% less damage taken during Enrage) and Bounding Stride (15s less CD on Heroic Leap and faster movespeed during it) is interesting. The former is good for passive damage mitigation, the latter is better for high movement situations. Another tier offers choices basically tailored to the content you do; Double Time (2 Charges) for raids, Shockwave (AoE stun) for M+, Storm Bolt (single target stun) for PvP.

The one between War Machine and Endless Rage is a bit less interesting. One is for pure ST, the other is better as soon as adds are involved. I'd rather see ST-boosting talents and AoE talents in separate rows. Avatar and Wrecking Ball are in a similar situation, but at least Avatar is also good in some burst AoE situations as well.

Also, while the full Execute build with Frothing Berserker is the ideal, Fury can also run Carnage on some short fights and do well, albeit not in Mythic.

And of course to say nothing of utterly dead talents like Fresh Meat, Outburst or Bladestorm.

The paradigm they're going for in BfA seems to be a good one; a talent row should have a theme. Here is The Movement row. There's the Signle Target Damage row. Over yonder is the General Purpose Damage row. On the back is the Defensive/self healing row. Mixing utility and DPS talents, or AoE and ST talents, isn't very good design.