Questions about Ancient Macedonia.

[mimee]

Hello,

This is a topic that has always blurred my thoughts because I always ask myself and never knew the answer. If any of you is Macedonian or Greek or knowledgeable in the matter answer please .

Ok..

1. I check Macedonia states nowadays and they all have NON-greek (slavic?) names such as: Kočani, Radoviš, Kumanovo, Štip, Skopje, Bitola etc etc etc. Then I check Greece and they have states names as: Thessaloniki,Heraklion etc etc. Greek names.

Did Ancient Macedonia during the Phillip Era have non-greek names like those above? or did it have Greek-like Names in ancient times and were changed later on? I'm confused because Macedonia was highly involved with greeks and spoke Greek and now they have non-greek names in their mainland?


Thank you!

[xylophone]

I'm sure they had Greek-like names, after being conquered by som many different peoples however I'm sure they all left their own traces behind. Look at the English language as a result of Britain being conquered by the french/vikings/romans, they all have had major influences on the language.

[bakkes]

Actually, many city names around all of the Mediteranean sea have their origin in Greek language but got changed (entirely changed, a translation into another language or just written as another tongue pronounces it).
I will give you an example, the capital of FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) Skopje has its origin from the Greek word Skopia, which means *watchtower*.
Try to look up the ethymology of a word, this can be also a city name and you will find yourself surprised how many cities in dozens of countries around the Black Sea and Mediteranean have their origin in Greece !

[ptwonline]

I don't know if ancient Macedonia had those kinds of names, but Macedonia was definitely a distinct and separate culture and people from Greeks.

[Primaliron]

Hello,

This is a topic that has always blurred my thoughts because I always ask myself and never knew the answer. If any of you is Macedonian or Greek or knowledgeable in the matter answer please .

Ok..

1. I check Macedonia states nowadays and they all have NON-greek (slavic?) names such as: Kočani, Radoviš, Kumanovo, Štip, Skopje, Bitola etc etc etc. Then I check Greece and they have states names as: Thessaloniki,Heraklion etc etc. Greek names.

Did Ancient Macedonia during the Phillip Era have non-greek names like those above? or did it have Greek-like Names in ancient times and were changed later on? I'm confused because Macedonia was highly involved with greeks and spoke Greek and now they have non-greek names in their mainland?


Thank you!

Most cities in the ancient world actually had several names over time. The Macedonians are definitely a Slavic cultural group, but the Slavs and Greeks also share a common Indo-European ancestry, as does much of Europe. Therefore the names tend to have similar meanings and pronunciation, as with the previously mentioned Skopje/Skopia. Massalia was an ancient Greek trading post. Over the years it has become Marseille. It's old Greek name is not entirely lost though as the locals pronounce the name more similarly to the Greek.

In the case of Macedonia it's also important to understand it was part of the Eastern Bloc as a part of Yugoslavia. Slavic nationality was already a serious force prior to the Soviet era, but during that time it became a unifying political tool amongst the Eastern Bloc. As such one should be careful when navigating Slavic history.

[Deleted]

This exactly.

I know the Greeks were even angry at some point that Macedonia called itself Macedonia, although they weren't successor of the mighty kind-of-Greek empire. Nitpicking in all it's glory.

I understood their actual fear was that if they accepted Macedonia calling itself Macedonia it might lay a claim to the province in Greece called Macedonia.

[mimee]

Actually, many city names around all of the Mediteranean sea have their origin in Greek language but got changed (entirely changed, a translation into another language or just written as another tongue pronounces it).
I will give you an example, the capital of FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) Skopje has its origin from the Greek word Skopia, which means *watchtower*.
Try to look up the ethymology of a word, this can be also a city name and you will find yourself surprised how many cities in dozens of countries around the Black Sea and Mediteranean have their origin in Greece !

That explains things a LOT. I never thought those city names had Greek roots. Thanks for dropping by and everybody else as well.

Did the city names change when Yugoslavia took over? Meaning when Yugoslavia annexed or made Macedonia part of Yugoslavia the time when the Greek Names started to change in Macedonia?

[Deleted]

Hello,

This is a topic that has always blurred my thoughts because I always ask myself and never knew the answer. If any of you is Macedonian or Greek or knowledgeable in the matter answer please .

Ok..

1. I check Macedonia states nowadays and they all have NON-greek (slavic?) names such as: Kočani, Radoviš, Kumanovo, Štip, Skopje, Bitola etc etc etc. Then I check Greece and they have states names as: Thessaloniki,Heraklion etc etc. Greek names.

Did Ancient Macedonia during the Phillip Era have non-greek names like those above? or did it have Greek-like Names in ancient times and were changed later on? I'm confused because Macedonia was highly involved with greeks and spoke Greek and now they have non-greek names in their mainland?


Thank you!

Before i will start i will ask you and the rest of the ppl here to forgive me for the grammar mistakes and they will be many i just hope you will be able to read

Ancient Macedonia

The Ancient Macedonia during the Phillip-Alexander Era was a Greek kingdom by that i mean a kindom that was Greek spoken with with Greek culture Greek religion and Greek names as you mention
Greek ancient names tend to have a meaning and in most cases they are compound words for example "Αλέξανδρος" (Aléxandros),
meaning "Defender of the people" or "Defending men"and also, "Protector of men", a compound of the verb "ἀλέξω" (alexō), "to ward off, to avert, to defend" and the noun "ἀνδρός" (andros) same principle apllys on the name Phillip the father of Alexander-Φίλιππος (philippos)– φίλος phílos, "friend" + ἵππος híppos, "horse.

here is a list with Macedonian kings

Karanus Κάρανος 808–778 BC
Koinos Κοινός 778–750 BC
Tyrimmas Τυρίμμας
Perdiccas I Περδίκκας Αʹ 700–678 BC
Argaeus I Ἀργαῖος Αʹ 678–640 BC
Philip I Φίλιππος Αʹ 640–602 BC
Aeropus I Ἀέροπος Αʹ 602–576 BC
Alcetas I Ἀλκέτας Αʹ 576–547 BC
Amyntas I Ἀμύντας Αʹ 547–498 BC
Alexander I Ἀλέξανδρος Αʹ 498–454 BC
Alcetas II Ἀλκέτας Βʹ 454–448 BC
Perdiccas II Περδίκκας Βʹ 448–413 BC
Archelaus Ἀρχέλαος Αʹ 413–399 BC
Craterus Κρατερός 399 BC
Orestes Ὀρέστης and Aeropus II Ἀέροπος Βʹ 399–396 BC
Archelaus II Ἀρχέλαος Βʹ 396–393 BC
Amyntas II Ἀμύντας Βʹ 393 BC
Pausanias Παυσανίας 393 BC
Amyntas III Ἀμύντας Γʹ 393 BC
Argaeus II Ἀργαῖος Βʹ 393–392 BC
Amyntas III Ἀμύντας Γʹ 392–370 BC
Alexander II Ἀλέξανδρος Βʹ 370–368 BC
Perdiccas III Περδίκκας Γʹ 368–359 BC
Ptolemy of Aloros Πτολεμαῖος Αʹ, Regent of Macedon 368–365 BC
Amyntas IV Ἀμύντας Δʹ 359–356 BC
Philip II Φίλιππος Βʹ 359–336 BC
Alexander III, the Great Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας 336–323 BC
Antipater Ἀντίπατρος, Regent of Macedon 334–323 BC
Philip III Arrhidaeus Φίλιππος Γʹ 323–317 BC and Alexander IV Ἀλέξανδρος Δʹ 323–310 BC[1]
Perdiccas Περδίκκας, Regent of the Macedon Empire 323–321 BC[2]
Antipater Ἀντίπατρος, Regent of the Macedon Empire 321–319 BC
Polyperchon Πολυπέρχων, Regent of the Macedon Empire 319–317 BC
Cassander Κάσανδρος, Regent of Macedon 317–305 BC

if you have time and energy to google the names with etymology you will find more details

Alexander was the person that unify Greece till then Greece wasnt a nation but city states like Athens Sparta etc here is a link about the ancient Macedonia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon...cient_kingdom) from what i have read its accurate (didnt read it all not a fun of wall texts like this one)

Modern Macedonia

Modern Macedonia (for me skopje) using almost the same language with Serbia and many other countrys check the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_script

Modern Macedonia declared independence in 1991 before that was a part of Yugoslavia.
Yugoslavia formed in 1945 until 1992 and included the next countrys Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia,Montenegro,Serbia,Slovenia and skopje (modern Macedonia "FYROM" Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia)
Before Yugoslavia was formed in WW2 FYROM was known as Vardar Banovina and was divided from the German forces between Bulgaria, German-occupied Serbia, and Albania


in short when you see anything with slavic names discart any connection with ancient Macedonia and when you see Greek names discart any connection with modern Macedonia

[Marthenil]

I understood their actual fear was that if they accepted Macedonia calling itself Macedonia it might lay a claim to the province in Greece called Macedonia.

This. Imagine if Mexico named itself Texas or Florida. What would the reaction of fellow Americans be?

[Mormolyce]

Yeah long story short, Macedonia (and I think some parts of Greece) were conquered several times between the classical period and today and the modern "Macedonia" has little if anything in common with the ancient "Macedonia".

[Marthenil]

Yeah long story short, Macedonia (and I think some parts of Greece) were conquered several times between the classical period and today and the modern "Macedonia" has little if anything in common with the ancient "Macedonia".

Yet they are claiming the history as theirs. As a Greek, this is what mostly irks us.

Regarding naming though, rottenpen got it right, in sort, names changed as Northern Macedonia got conquered by slavic people.

[Dragon2K]

Yet they are claiming the history as theirs. As a Greek, this is what mostly irks us.

Regarding naming though, rottenpen got it right, in sort, names changed as Northern Macedonia got conquered by slavic people.

Well, all things considered they have about as much to do with ancient Macedonia as modern day Greece has to do with ancient Greece... That is, very little except for territorial overlap. Yet both claim to be the undeniable successor to their illustrous forbears. Like a bunch of hillbillies a-feudin' and a-fightin'.

[Marthenil]

Well, all things considered they have about as much to do with ancient Macedonia as modern day Greece has to do with ancient Greece... That is, very little except for territorial overlap. Yet both claim to be the undeniable successor to their illustrous forbears. Like a bunch of hillbillies a-feudin' and a-fightin'.

I really don't see your point there. Does the fact that modern Greeks have nothing to do with a culture that existed thousands of years before somehow make it ok to make arbitrary claims?

[Dragon2K]

I really don't see your point there. Does the fact that modern Greeks have nothing to do with a culture that existed thousands of years before somehow make it ok to make arbitrary claims?

Neither can make territorial cllaims based on an ancient Kingdom of Macedonia. Neither or both can lay claim to Alexander the Great's legacy (but then so do a ton of other countries including Persia/Iran). Both, being on the former territory of both the Kingdom of Macedon and the Roman province of Macedonia can use the name 'Macedonia'.
The whole dispute is very petty and childish.
Here in the Netherlands we have a province called 'North Brabant' while the rest of 'Brabant' is a large part of Belgium. This does not mean that we can suddenly claim Belgium or that Belgium can suddenly claim North Brabant. Learn to treat eachother like adults.

[Bepples]

Neither can make territorial cllaims based on an ancient Kingdom of Macedonia. Neither or both can lay claim to Alexander the Great's legacy (but then so do a ton of other countries including Persia/Iran). Both, being on the former territory of both the Kingdom of Macedon and the Roman province of Macedonia can use the name 'Macedonia'.
The whole dispute is very petty and childish.
Here in the Netherlands we have a province called 'North Brabant' while the rest of 'Brabant' is a large part of Belgium. This does not mean that we can suddenly claim Belgium or that Belgium can suddenly claim North Brabant. Learn to treat eachother like adults.

THIS is why it is a problem:



That is what they are teaching in F.Y.R.O.M. schools. The dark teal part is the current F.Y.R.O.M. The yellow, purple and red regions are areas of Macedonia occupied, as described by the map, by Albania, Bulgaria and Greece respectively. So it's not just Greeks that should be pissed of. Albanians and Bulgarians also have to deal with radical F.Y.R.O.M. nationalists claiming large areas of their land. Alright, probably not TOO much land in Albania's case, but I do know that their claims of Greek Macedonia include Thessalonika, one of the largest cities in Greece. In fact, they want Thessalonika to be the capital of "United Macedonia".

Surely you would understand that Greeks feel rather shitty about Yugoslavians turning around saying that THEY are the "true Greeks" and that they are in fact the modern descendants of the ancient Macedonians. While the lineage between modern and ancient Greeks is rather murky, the ancient Macedonians certainly were not Slavic. Despite this, F.Y.R.O.M saw fit to erect a statue of Alexander the Great in Skopje.

Sure, their "Greater Macedonia" fantasies have no actual political weight and nothing meaningful will become of them. There is still something deeply wrong about trying to steal someone's culture and convincing an entire generation with propaganda to make them join the cause. Is the Greek government just as corrupt and if not more? Sure! The Greek government is one of the most corrupt and ineffective governments in the developed world. But two wrongs don't make a right.

[Deleted]

So, to put it simple, slavic settlers took the name of the lands they settled, and Greeks are not happy about it.

Surely you would understand that Greeks feel rather shitty about Yugoslavians turning around saying that THEY are the "true Greeks" and that they are in fact the modern descendants of the ancient Macedonians.

To be honest, debate about it is rather nonsensical. There were ancient macedonians there, and when slavs arrived they mostly mixed. But after 1500 years is absurd to talk about descendancy. Every one of us has mixed herritage from many people if you count 10 generations from last 200 years. Who knows, you think you're English, but maybe one of your ancestor came from Russia, other from Spain...you can't know for sure, unless you keep flawless family tree record. Now immagine your descendancy from 1500 years ago. There are no descendans from any ancient people, everyone of us is a mix of many Nations. There have been many migrations in last 1500 years

[Bepples]

So, to put it simple, slavic settlers took the name of the lands they settled, and Greeks are not happy about it.



To be honest, debate about it is rather nonsensical. There were ancient macedonians there, and when slavs arrived they mostly mixed. But after 1500 years is absurd to talk about descendancy. Every one of us has mixed herritage from many people if you count 10 generations from last 200 years. Who knows, you think you're English, but maybe one of your ancestor came from Russia, other from Spain...you can't know for sure, unless you keep flawless family tree record. Now immagine your descendancy from 1500 years ago. There are no descendans from any ancient people, everyone of us is a mix of many Nations. There have been many migrations in last 1500 years

Right, but tell that to F.Y.R.O.M., because they:
1. Try to establish a link to an ancient culture that is in no way related to theirs, and
2. Use that link as a basis to claim a bunch of land of surrounding nations to be theirs.

[Cybran]

2. Use that link as a basis to claim a bunch of land of surrounding nations to be theirs.

As someone from the purple region of the map you linked I am used to reading how FYROM will liberate me from opression. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[Gothicshark]

Hello,

This is a topic that has always blurred my thoughts because I always ask myself and never knew the answer. If any of you is Macedonian or Greek or knowledgeable in the matter answer please .

Ok..

1. I check Macedonia states nowadays and they all have NON-greek (slavic?) names such as: Kočani, Radoviš, Kumanovo, Štip, Skopje, Bitola etc etc etc. Then I check Greece and they have states names as: Thessaloniki,Heraklion etc etc. Greek names.

Did Ancient Macedonia during the Phillip Era have non-greek names like those above? or did it have Greek-like Names in ancient times and were changed later on? I'm confused because Macedonia was highly involved with greeks and spoke Greek and now they have non-greek names in their mainland?


Thank you!

Technically Macedonia was not a Greek City State until they invaded Greece under Philip, they were technically their own people. As such they would have had a different language and culture, however Philip loved Greek Civilization and had adopted Greek Culture, his son was Raised as a Greek.

However this was 2350 years ago. In the time following Philips Death Macedonia became fully Greek.

However as for Macedonia and Greece the demographics didn't stop changing, about 1600 years ago the Western Roman Empire fell, the Germanic Tribes of the far North took over all the Roman lands and mixed with their peoples. This included parts of the land which was called Yugoslavia.

This means Now there was a small portion of Celtics, a large portion of Greeks, and a Large portion of Germans. Macedonia was still not done being f*** with however, because the Eastern Roman Empire Fell to the invasion of Muslims, then the Muslims fell to Mongolians, who converted to Islam. These Muslim Mongolians Invaded all of former Greek lands. They took non-Muslims as slaves, and called the New empire Ottoman, or as we now call the Turkish.

Macedonia already being a mixed population got mixed further by the Mongolian Muslims (Turks). The Turks continued to rule that region until the end of the First World War.

The easy divide and way to test who is what is to just ask what is the Religious brake down of any nation in the region.

Orthodox is Greek
Roman Catholic is Germanic
Muslim is Turkish

Orthodox Christianity is the majority faith of the Republic of Macedonia making up 64.7% of the population, the vast majority of which belong to the Macedonian Orthodox Church. Various other Christian denominations account for 0.37% of the population. Muslims comprise 33.3% of the population; Macedonia has the fifth-highest proportion of Muslims in Europe, after those of Turkey (96%), Kosovo (90%), Albania (56.7%), and Bosnia-Herzegovina (45%). Most Muslims are Albanians, Turks, or Roma, although few are Macedonian Muslims. The remaining 1.63% is recorded as "unspecified" in the 2002 national census.[108]

on a side note looking at the Balkans you can see the different nations tend to follow racial separations based on religion.

Once again Wiki quote because I'm lazy

Territories in which the principal religion is Eastern Orthodoxy:

Bulgaria (Bulgarian Orthodoxy)
Greece (Greek Orthodoxy)
Macedonia (Macedonian Orthodoxy)
Montenegro (Serbian Orthodox Church and Montenegrin Orthodoxy)
Romania (Romanian Orthodoxy)
Serbia (Serbian Orthodoxy)

Territories in which the principal religion is Roman Catholicism:

Croatia (87.83% Catholics (3 897 332); according to 2001 census official data)
Slovenia (57.80% Catholics (1 135 626); according to 2002 census official data)

Territories in which the principal religion is Sunni Islam:

Albania
Kosovo[a]
Turkey
Bosnia and Herzegovina

[Miloscub]

@GothicShark thats some simplified history there lol, Mongols =/= Turks,and Mongols never invaded the balkans,they conquered modern Ukraine/Belarus/Parts of Romania from what I recall, Ottoman/Seljuk turks pushed their way from the east but south of the mongols and slowly conquered parts of the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) and eventually made it to Europe and conquered Hadrianopolis,cutting of Constantinople from Greece and other western territories. Modern macedonians came with the rest of the slavs in the 5-6th century and settled on the balkans, Also important to note, original Bulgarians weren't slavs,they were a group of people that came after/during the mongol era and before the turks even knew what europe was and conqured part of modern day bulgaria but were slovenized (? spelling). So,I guess modern day Macedonians came and settled along with Southern Slavs and took the name of the area they settled in. Sorry for the walloftext..

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Also,the people(s) that were settled on the Balkans before that (Celts and Illyrians + other nomadic/barbaric tribes) were Romanised during the centuries it was under Roman control and moved to the east when slavs came from the north,or mixed with them,as it was still Roman territory,first Slav state was alot later, Germans also never settled on the balkans... Croatians (or Croats w/e) took up Catholicism due to close proximity with Italy/Germany and Serbs/Macedonians and Bulgarians took up Orthodoxy due to close proximity with Byzantine Empire

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Oh jeez,i forgot to mention Huns at all http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Huns
Balkan History is complicated,and I advise you take some medication before digging in more, we're kinda on the crossroads here so alot of wars/drama/mixing/migration was done in the last ~2k years

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Map of the Mongol Empire at its height, from Asian PoV,Borders reached Belarus/mid Ukraine in the west. (1259). Fell apart soon due to civil wars.

Hunnic Empire under Atilla (420–469 AD) , at its height,it fell apart very soon after he died,so there was no lasting influence on the people living there,except I guess modern day Hungarians,which you can say came with the Huns,same as Finns that settled north,not sure about Finns tho (they are the same ethnic/language group afaik)