Master Looter

[Verdugo]

Sad to see people defend more layers of RNG in the gearing process.

[rda]

If this whole lootsystem becomes a thing and provided trading is still open ...

They should disable trading of personal loot.

[Ipsissimus]

It's fine that you don't care what the majority does, the majority doesn't care about what you do either. The justification for Blizzard to take away this loot system is that it is damaging in 99% of the cases. It isn't being limited to guilds only, by the way, but even if it was, this would be irrelevant, the limit is evidently not big enough. In the vast majority of cases, the option is bad. Removing it is a good decision.

"Best yet, said supposed 'street shitters' QQ has absolutely nothing to do with why Blizzard is taking away ML." - disagree.

People praising Blizzard on MMO Champagne do not amount to 99% of the cases to me. As I said, nothing is stopping people from running personal loot in their guilds. "But they make the wrong choice 'cause they're selfish", tough luck. It's not Blizzard's job to police player interactions at that level. It's a bloody MMORPG.

Wholeheartedly disagree on it having anything to do with them removing ML, you're welcome to find me anyone who raids Mythic at any dedicated level who'd tell me otherwise. Ideally in a private setting so I don't have to monitor expressing what I think of them making such baseless claims.

[Morae]

Be in a sensible mature guild and you wont have master looter funnel everything to their friends and gf who is boosted along. :/


ML needs to stay. PL is good for more casual guilds and pugs. ML is good for mythic guilds.

My guild is semi hardcore. Atm 9/11 on mythic and I cant imagine how shit it would be do to try optimizing loot with no ML. We have had many 1% wipes along the way and also kills that were basically boss annihilating people one by one and barely kill them. Badly optimized gear would have meant those barely kills would have been not kills. That and reaching some tipping points... will you get boss cast that ability just as your need to do something or are you able to pass that point and make things easier. Just saying that the optimization matters. Its not theoretical problem.

Not to mention the hassle of trading gear and other restrictions.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

I'm a fool because I don't think alpha is the same as live? Yeah okay. Your logic makes sense

No, you're an ignorant fool because you think "but but but it's ALPHA!" is a valid argument, just as I said. But it doesn't mean shit, and we have more than a decade of proof to back that up.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

I'm neither ignorant nor a fool thanks. You can stop replying now though

"I have no valid counterargument, so I'm putting you on ignore for calling me out on my bullshit, assuming I can figure out how." --You

Got it.

[brigada]

OP is completely right though, not much to troll about

[WurstKaeseSzenario]

[...]

Someone new to the raid/guild and the only thing they care about is loot. That's one of three the reason why guilds have a trial period. The other two reasons are social compatibility and being a good player.

You seem to be on trial often and your post shows why.

[Gaidax]

They should disable trading of personal loot.

You would rather see loot your buddies may use disenchanted?

I'll tell you something, my overreaching goal in WoW is to clear Mythic raids while they are relevant, so that I can both experience prime raiding and get accolades coming with completion like title and mount. Having a ton of gear that otherwise could have been distributed wasted makes my raid group weaker and makes the goal of completing raid tier in time more difficult.

For me it's pretty senseless and selfish to see someone rather DE or bank gear as opposed to trade it to someone from your own raid team who actually needs it.

[Deleted]

People that are against master loot are the ones that causes the problem with it. If you play in a guild going for hard kills, guess what, its about your guildd progress first and foremost not your personal cravings.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Fine, if you really need to argue. Blizzard have never removed master loot before, the shit that people bitch about on alpha that's minor/ won't affect the game really generally doesn't get changed (like something as forgettable as the dance studio) then you have class design, which is subjective - and frankly when it comes to how the game plays I trust that Blizzard knows far better than the playerbase does what's best. What's different is that master-loot doesn't hurt anyone, and there's no reason a guild cannot choose what happens to their loot that they earned. Furthermore, we already have examples of stuff on the BFA alpha being changed (Zandalari Troll hights being one of them)

You really need to learn, kid. Seriously.

When you do and you can keep up with a conversation (especially one that's only about 30 minutes old), feel free to rejoin the conversation.

[Allenschezar]

There are indeed a lot of ignorant folks playing the game, as there are distrustful ones. Most Mythic guilds do not have a single person but rather a loot council, with access to their alts, weighted values from the various class theorycrafters and direct information of the attendance, performance and whatever else factor your guild's leadership deems relevant for the distribution of loot. Mistakes still happen, people quit or move guilds. But you still have far greater control over the affairs than "oh look, Ipsi inbredforged his way into multiple max ilevel items, but he's hella busy IRL so he's standing in even more Fire than usual, woe is us".

True that.

I'm familiar with LC. We use this distribution method too. But i still highly doubt this is enough to ensure the knowledge needed to eventually cover each spec. There might be exceptions. But they are rare. So people still rely on information of others.

Legion brought this to an extreme. As most theory crafters will tell you, you can't just use sheet X and tell which items are best. There is a reason most of them tell you "you want to know if it's an upgrade? sim it."

And i would really like to see the loot council who is capable of doing that for each of their raid members each time their stats and gear changes. Well it's less a question of them being capable but rather willing to put that tremendous amount of work into it.

If you're doing that you have my respect.

I know my LC depends on me telling them if and how much i need something so they can do the right decisions. And i think that's ok.

If a guild's leadership doesn't trust their raiders they should get new ones.
If a player doesn't trust their guild's leadership they should join another one or start their own.
It's nobody's business how we handle this internally.

Of course trust is the key in this. As i said in an earlier post it would be pointless imo to put the time into raiding mythic content and then try to screw your own raid.

I simply tried to understand someone could believe this is an issue. Then again this is an issue in some cases probably and i was lucky enough to avoid these guilds.

I trust my Leaders. And they trust me. And of course it is the guilds business how to handle this. But for me it helps to try and understand why there are people who think otherwhise.

[rda]

You would rather see loot your buddies may use disenchanted?

I'll tell you something, my overreaching goal in WoW is to clear Mythic raids while they are relevant, so that I can both experience prime raiding and get accolades coming with completion like title and mount. Having a ton of gear that otherwise could have been distributed wasted makes my raid group weaker and makes the goal of completing raid tier in time more difficult.

For me it's pretty senseless and selfish to see someone rather DE or bank gear as opposed to trade it to someone from your own raid team who actually needs it.

Yes, occasionally disenchanted personal loot is better than master loot.

There is a stepping stone: enforce personal loot and no trading of items everywhere except mythic.

[Gaidax]

Loot Council does not operate in a bubble, every item that drops that is of interest to specific people gets bid for on them who select either major or minor upgrade on it and then council decides based info they have who should get it, in case they can't they just ask the two most apparent guys to discuss it and this way it's quickly resolved..

I don't see what's so strange about that and for the years we're using loot council we are yet to have issues with it.

The overriding understanding is that in the end everyone will have most of shit they want anyway because there is no shortage of gear anyway and no sane person will start bullshit over not getting that item they want "right fucking nao", because ultimately it does not matter anyway in the scope or the raid group which is what in the end gives you gear.

[kamuimac]

I really cant see the benefits of this. What is positive when youre forced to have random personal loot?
Right now you have the CHOICE to pick a guild/raidgroup that has personal loot. ML has benefits and personal loot has benefits for some people too, i guess.
For all those who said pople abused ML: Why didnt you pick another raid then? Youre mad you didnt get loot when you were a trial? Its not like youre a trial forver. A few weeks if not less. So if this really affects you that much, then im almost 100% sure youre a guild hopper and you deserve to not get the loot.

Anyways, super stupid change. Gets rid of even more social interaction in a mmo. This games becomes more laughtable with every patch. I hope classic comes soon.

but people did choose other raids.

thats why you dont see any normal/hc raiding guilds

because people choosen to raid in pugs regardless of how shit pugging is instead dealing with all ML nonsense in guilds.

why waste time for couple of weeks when you can make your own group in group finder and given enough time go all the way to AoTC in 1-2 weeks.

raiding with guild would be a waste of time in their case

[JohnRoads]

I have a really hard time seeing what people have against the option for ML. If you don't like that a guild is using ML then you can leave and join a guild that is only using PL. It is that simple.

[Allenschezar]

It has nothing to do with "dickbags" - most guilds which progress mythic and aim to get a clear before nerfs prefer to have control over gear so they can optimize the raid as a whole by distributing loot to people who need it most.

If this whole lootsystem becomes a thing and provided trading is still open - player that will be caught cheating the guild out of loot - will be either kicked or put on notice, it's pretty standard.

Yes of course you would kick a person like that. But imo there is more to this if you end up with raiders who try to cheat on their guild with essentially "stealing" loot as i said in my post. Why would you have a person like that in your guild in the first place? Especially in a mythic guild.

Like it was mentioned in another discussion i have in this thread. Trust is important. So if someone gets loot via PL and he tells you it's really good for him. Will you force him to trade it over to your RL so he can decide if that's really the case? Cause that sounds to me like what i meant with Leaders who try to control the loot as it pleases them.

I understand it's not great if ML really dissapears. But if you have a solid guild in the first place with people you know you can trust it won't make a huge difference. Nobody will try to cheat the guild. Everybody will have the focus Guild > Individual.

Yes there might be potentially wasted loot. But again as i said. Bosses will still die.

[Ipsissimus]

True that.

I'm familiar with LC. We use this distribution method too. But i still highly doubt this is enough to ensure the knowledge needed to eventually cover each spec. There might be exceptions. But they are rare. So people still rely on information of others.

Legion brought this to an extreme. As most theory crafters will tell you, you can't just use sheet X and tell which items are best. There is a reason most of them tell you "you want to know if it's an upgrade? sim it."

And i would really like to see the loot council who is capable of doing that for each of their raid members each time their stats and gear changes. Well it's less a question of them being capable but rather willing to put that tremendous amount of work into it.

If you're doing that you have my respect.

I know my LC depends on me telling them if and how much i need something so they can do the right decisions. And i think that's ok.



Of course trust is the key in this. As i said in an earlier post it would be pointless imo to put the time into raiding mythic content and then try to screw your own raid.

I simply tried to understand someone could believe this is an issue. Then again this is an issue in some cases probably and i was lucky enough to avoid these guilds.

I trust my Leaders. And they trust me. And of course it is the guilds business how to handle this. But for me it helps to try and understand why there are people who think otherwhise.

Legion brought it to an extreme specifically because of the actual "degenerate extreme". You are right, it is practically impossible to have an actual 'bis list' because it changes based on which inbredforged pieces from coins, weekly m+ cache, raid mission and even Aman'thul each person got. You still do have a good idea of the relative strength of each item for a given spec (not all BiS are equal) and for a given player. The loot council in my guild doesn't do things to that extreme of handling everything by themselves, because we've kept a mostly stable roster that tends to be rather honest about how good a given item is for them. Plus, overall most everyone are familiar enough with the various specs inhabiting our roster that people would get called on bullshit if they attempt to trick their way to a piece of gear that should go elsewhere, or a talent/spell choice to pad when they should be burning down the boss or add, if not by the officers then by other raiders. It's just part of the territory, really.

I commend you for attempting to understand how people reach such weird conclusions. Frankly, after trying to explain to people that no, raids aren't what ruined WoD so you shouldn't be asking Blizzard to remove Mythic so you get more pet battles, and no, just because they got their best legendary first or because in their guild having the right legendaries doesn't critically affect your raid spot doesn't mean the system is okay, my standing observation is that people are just extremely selfish and do not mind forcing whatever arbitrary solution on the rest of the game's population so long as they themselves are happy. How can someone have such a massive issue with Master Loot when it already rewards less items than Personal Loot does and is already limited to 80%+ guild groups and is purely optional can't really have some other remotely reasonable explanation.

To contrast this, WoD had very good raids and required little to no time investment out of them. Only thing I did outside of raiding was do one set of challenge mode dungeons to get my weapon transmogs and I was done. On the personal level I was quite content, since I haven't been playing for much else other than raiding for quite some time now. Yet, I consider it to be the worst iteration of WoW simply because everyone else had absolutely fuck all to do for the entire bloody expansion. I still got called elitist and selfish and whatever else when attempting to explain to the people crusading against Mythic that a big part of the reason that raids were kept in is how cheap it is to produce them compared to things like quest lines and a bunch of mounts and pets and whatever else.

Blizzard found a new cheap formula in Legion with the Mythic+ system, and lo and behold by the time the next expansion rolls around they're already attempting to sabotage the dedicated raiding community by taking away players' control over their loot. It's quite easier to design a dungeon boss for 5 people than it is to design a raid boss for 20, don't you think? And a dungeon you can clear an infinite number of times per week is quite nicer than a raid you only get to clear once at the 'proper' level (though we have inbredforging to encourage people to clear the lower difficulties as well).

[ceall]

Why were you not clearing mythic the first week or 2?

I disagree with you being a mythic guild. Go ahead, curse, stop your feet screaming you are a mythic guild. I honestly don't care.

I'm only 3/11 mythic and really don't care.

I play when I have time.

I choose not to play with groups that use loot consoul.

With tier sets being gone, there will even less justification for lc.

I have no problem doing a mythic now or later.



FYI my choice.

Yup tier goes away.
But weapon drops are re-introduced, trinkets will remain strong, rings are still a thing and azerite armor replaces tier, so there's as much need for ML in serious progression guilds (be it top 50 or top 700) as always, if not more because of azerite gear and weapons.

We can go away from ML when classes are templated and get more stats via ilvl (just like pvp templates). But we're faaaaaar away from this to happen.

[Teddybird]

First off I want to see if we can keep this conversation mature.

First we need to clarify something. What is a mythic guild. A mythic guild is a guild that completes heroic content the first week of release and are stating mythic day 1 of opening.
A Mythic progression guild is a guild that has cleared at leats one both on mythic and is active progression on mythic pretty much till the final pre-patch. Statistics have used this for years as to work out how meny players do certain content.

To many guilds think they are a mythic that start doing mythic a month so after release.
Yep, because they are

The only reason for master looter is you are par of a guild that is starting mythic right when it is released because you are very uner geared and are trying to squeeze out every little dps to down a boss.
Master looter when done fairly splits the loot across the raid, and yes even when over geared you should still be trying to squeeze out every little dps to down a progression boss.

Its proven that human nature there will always be favorites or stuff tgiven to friends or officers over others.
Its proven human nature that people will also be willing to lose out if it gives a benefit to the collective, our entire society is based around it.

How many remember when to get legendaries you actually had to do the raid and tge first person to get was the gm or officer over others.
Least in my guild it will do to who ever will get the most out of it, officers and raiders have no difference between the ranks in that regard.

Something people need to remember that you guild is nothing without you. It does not matter what the gm or officers what, if the mass of the guild does not want master looter then make it known. Tell them if they dont want to switch then they are not raiding.
Pretty much every raider that i have personal spoke to that is at least half way though mythic antorus agrees with me that the removal of ML is a bad idea.

For people that are not in top 100 explain how master looter, loot concil is making or breaking you downing bosses. I bet the reason you are not downing a boss is because of mechanics not dps.
Yes it comes down to mechanics as the gear has already been distribute correct via master loot.

I am glad to hear that there is a chance that master looter is going away.
Regardless of your opioion you should never be happy in a game you love when the dev remove a level of customisation or co-ordanation.

A true mythic guild clears heroic first or second at most.
Statistics disagree.

You can call me any name want but facts are facts.
Yes they are, but your mistaking a lot of your opioion with facts unfornatly

The fact your x number in world, I forget the exact number like it matters, who really cares.
The people pushing, and a decent amount who arnt pushing, as proven by how watched and check the world first race is.

Do you get special button or something for being 360 something in the world? Do you get money? Do you anything in real life for it?
Joy and Satifaction, which most people strive for

The point is unless you are top 100 the 1% of dps is not the difference between a kill and not. It's mechanics.
The range is unfornatly much larger than you seam to make out, and yes a small amount of damage can make a huge diffrence to wether or not you can push a phase. Also Hero useage can change depending on if a phase cant be pushed due to low dps.

You are killing the mythic bosses several weeks if not months after the release of mythic so you out gear it.
The communtiy idea of gearing is strange, 2 weeks after release mythic raiders are aprantly outgearing it even though it drops things above our ilvl. Yet the communtiy seams to think 960ilvl is the standard when invite to herioc pugs, "overgearing" is mostly a trigger word and exactly what it mean changes depending who you ask.

You are killing because the group is finally doing the mechanics correctly and you got good rng on a pull.
One of the biggest RNG of a fight is how meny proc/trinkets go off during cool down windows for dps, so no its not always that way.

You definition of mythic guild may be different from mine.
The definition doesn't change, you just seam to misunderstood how master looter is meant to work or been unluckily with assholes as leaders who abuse the system.