BFA Affliction

[Verazh]

re survivability and in general spec concerns. Its puzzling how Blizz can go between expansions and mess around with a spec, having legitimate concerns being brought fourth through feedback from the community, yet completely ignore it and eventually launch with a flawed spec. It's not just lock specs mind. Its simply mind boggling. Its like they go "well let's just wait and see for a bit".

How can they not realise removing so much self-healing its gimping the spec? On ALL my melee characters, whenever I see a lcok I just stick to him until he's dead. Not hard at all. Even mages arent that hard to stick to as a warr for example, and they have a billion escape and survival tools.

[Deleted]

This is always the case, I have doubts that blizz will change much anymore for affli since they have other classes/specs to look at and then tuning , not sure they have time to do much else before the game goes live.

So I believe we'll be seeing aff the way it is now on beta once BFA goes live.

Honestly, you really think affliction has survivability issues? You can always Drain Life in case you need it. And there are still two defensive talents nearly noone used in legion cause there was rarely any need.

I currently prefer demo (also because of soul link) but affliction defensives are still strong. You just gotta trade off damage for survivability now.

Of course Drain Life isnt the same power level as drain soul now. But it is far from away from being bad.

Imo only demonology has stronger survivability from all ranged dps specs. The strong defensives are the main reason i picked warlock for bfa as main char.

Though i tend to go demo which just looks to be the best spec ingame for m+ and raids. But affli will be king for multi dots i thing.

Tuning wise all 3 warlock specs are too strong in beta. But after all i think Blizzard loves warlocks so one spec will always be very strong.

[wholol]

Honestly, you really think affliction has survivability issues? You can always Drain Life in case you need it. And there are still two defensive talents nearly noone used in legion cause there was rarely any need.

I currently prefer demo (also because of soul link) but affliction defensives are still strong. You just gotta trade off damage for survivability now.

Of course Drain Life isnt the same power level as drain soul now. But it is far from away from being bad.

Imo only demonology has stronger survivability from all ranged dps specs. The strong defensives are the main reason i picked warlock for bfa as main char.

Though i tend to go demo which just looks to be the best spec ingame for m+ and raids. But affli will be king for multi dots i thing.

Tuning wise all 3 warlock specs are too strong in beta. But after all i think Blizzard loves warlocks so one spec will always be very strong.

Yes affliction has survivability issues, it's not just my opinion, it's fact.

90% of all locks are arguing about affliction survivability being low on every forum possible, there are serious issues with affliction's ability to survive on beta and not just in pvp scenarios, saying drain life helps is like saying you're only considering leveling your warlock and not doing anything beyond that.

I'm not talking about dps here.

[Deleted]

Yes affliction has survivability issues, it's not just my opinion, it's fact.

90% of all locks are arguing about affliction survivability being low on every forum possible, there are serious issues with affliction's ability to survive on beta and not just in pvp scenarios, saying drain life helps is like saying you're only considering leveling your warlock and not doing anything beyond that.

I'm not talking about dps here.

Issues compared to whom? Mages have an immunity, but no defensives outside of it. Shadows are weaker. Boomkins bear form has been nerfed heavily. Hunters have low self heal. Elemental is a joke.

Yes affliction is a lot closer to the rest than in legion. But if you sacrifice burning rush and some damage it should have the highest sustainability.

If warlocks have issues EVERYONE has survivability issues.

Just play other specs. I leveled as demo in bfa and felt invincible. PvP tuning is a different thing.

[wholol]

Issues compared to whom? Mages have an immunity, but no defensives outside of it. Shadows are weaker. Boomkins bear form has been nerfed heavily. Hunters have low self heal. Elemental is a joke.

Yes affliction is a lot closer to the rest than in legion. But if you sacrifice burning rush and some damage it should have the highest sustainability.

If warlocks have issues EVERYONE has survivability issues.

I just realized it's going to be difficult telling why your point is wrong , as I would need to teach you how to become a better player first for you to understand why what you're saying is flawed.

I'm not trying to be offensive and i'm sorry if it sounds that way, let's just start with which environment you're talking about in the above, is it arenas/bgs/open world/ dungeons or raids?

Either way you can't just consider half a class' kit without considering everything they can do. out of all the examples you gave above, the only spec that's in a similar boat to affliction atm is shadow priest.

[MrHappy]

between sac pac void, dark pact, unending resolve and drain life/soul....wtf more do you need?

[Deleted]

I just realized it's going to be difficult telling why your point is wrong , as I would need to teach you how to become a better player first for you to understand why what you're saying is flawed.

I'm not trying to be offensive and i'm sorry if it sounds that way, let's just start with which environment you're talking about in the above, is it arenas/bgs/open world/ dungeons or raids?

Either way you can't just consider half a class' kit without considering everything they can do. out of all the examples you gave above, the only spec that's in a similar boat to affliction atm is shadow priest.

Wtf are you talking about? Maybe you need to be a better player if all those tools arent enough.

With tank pets you are invincible in solo content. And in group/raid content affliction has very strong defensives. And dont mention mobility.

The power level affliction offered in legion was insane. Affliction lost a lot but it is still very strong.

Please tell me: which ranged class has better surv tools than warlocks?

[wholol]

between sac pac void, dark pact, unending resolve and drain life/soul....wtf more do you need?

For leveling you're never picking sac, if you dont use voidwalker you die to 3+ mobs on beta and at 120 if you don't have an interrupt I wonder what content you're doing.

Dark pact means no demon skin ( demon skin is mandatory in pvp and even then it's lackluster),dark pact is only viable when you are at 100% hp scenarios, in any content where you are actually taking damage and aren't at full health it's impact is minimal.

Unending resolve is a 3 mins cd, other classes have similar defensives on a much shorter cd.

Drain life? are we really going to bring this up ?

Have you played beta or are you just commenting after casually reading some posts here and there? most of our legion sustain is gone, healthstones are nerfed quite substantially too, not that draining was a viable source of sustain outside pve content but in beta you wouldn't cast drain life in any content outside open world.

@Klatar

Open world content without warmode voidwalker has you covered , you seem like the type of player who doesn't pvp so you obviously believe locks are fine because you'll never touch that warmode button.

Every single other spec in the game bar shadow priests have better survivability than affliction on beta, not just ranged classes.

Mobility itself is a defensive measure, classes that don't have that tend to have stronger passive survivability ( @ ele shams/ boomkins), why are locks not factored into that mentality ? if your definition of gameplay revolves around standing still clicking buttons with your mouse while relying on your healers to save you from shit or using dark pact/UR when shit doesn't go your way , does not mean affliction is good at surviving, and plz don't mention gateway as an actual mobility cd.

Not to mention you wouldn't be using drain life , like ever , if you plan on using a voidwalker you don't even need it in open world content either, and in pvp situations using drain life is hilarious at best.

[Deleted]

I dont care about pvp. I might level in warmode but it will be grouped so noone cares. I am always talking about raids and m+ and leveling process.

But if you mention elemental: all they have baseline is a 40% red cd without interrupt immunity. No demon skin. Drain Life vs HS is a close thing. I thing Drain Life will be superior because it heals about the same or more and deals damage while your dots kill them. Warlocks may have 2 stuns. Additionally elementals have lower hp (they actually lose hp fighting mobs, they arent mobile at all).

In what sense do you believe elementals are better off? SS has a smaller CD than reinc if you count this as def utility. Pets will lead to warlocks beibg pretty much always at 100% while in PVE. And historically warlocks always had higher dps.

[Deleted]

With how aggro is being retooled the ramp up time might not be as big of an issue as you might think. Those other up front bursty classes may not be able to blow their wad right away without getting themselves killed. Either way though, it feels like devs are just nerfing affliction to make up for it being a viable raiding spec in Legion. The recent nerfing of UA was an obvious pvp nerf, pve were rarely going to stack them so its not a big issue.

I havent spec into demonology yet but each day that goes by i get closer to doing it and just not looking back.

Last time round they nerfed the flat damage multiplier - that's just something they apply before a real turning pass and basically overall buffs/nerfs the entire spec because they haven't decided where the damage will actually be or what abilities will generate it in a specific way - because they buffed UA.

Then they just nerfed UA after that anyway.

[sugarfree]

Dude, you cannot generalize affliction’s survivability when you do not even PvP.

Good luck trying to level up as Affliction with melee stalking your ass especially rogues with their 5-sec silences as an opener. Good luck managing to only get a corr and agony on them to tickle them while your face is buried on the dirt. In arena, you will be bursted down without doing much damage.

The nerfs to the shield and healthstone were not needed considering the fact that melee remains untouched, yet again.

[Deleted]

Dude, you cannot generalize affliction’s survivability when you do not even PvP.

Good luck trying to level up as Affliction with melee stalking your ass especially rogues with their 5-sec silences as an opener. Good luck managing to only get a corr and agony on them to tickle them while your face is buried on the dirt. In arena, you will be bursted down without doing much damage.

The nerfs to the shield and healthstone were not needed considering the fact that melee remains untouched, yet again.

Well thats not a warlock issue, that's a ranged dps spec issue.

Ranged attacking melee from ranged with preparation and precast -> most melees will easily die.

Melee getting the first hit -> ranged dies.

Nothing new. Especially since the game isn't designed around 1v1. The same issue pretty much every ranged spec currently has (ask an elemental or a boomkin how long they survive if a rogue gets the opener...).

AFAIK they will still buff/nerfs specs vs templates anyways.

And dont forget: you also get pvp talents:
- Casting circle makes you immue to interrupts for 8 sec
- Essence Drain makes the target deal up to 25% reduced damage to you while channeling drain life
- Curse of weakness decreases physcial damage done by 20%

We dont know where the final numbers will be. But your example (rogues getting the opener) is a classic example why they never are going to be able to balance 1v1. Especially since some specs are very strong in 1v1 and dont contribute in group gameplay. And mobility like your portal still exist.

I'm not gonna argue about pvp because pvp isn't good in that game and never was balanced. But i dont remember a single time where a rogue getting the first hit from stealth wasn't gonna easily win against an equally skilled player, especially with the element of surprise.

And i dont think the elemental, boomkin or shadow will win a 1v1 vs a rogue, monk or dh unless they get the first hit from ranged.

And if we focus on pvp you also gotta include cc and pvp talents into your toolkit.

I just tested in beta and with phantom singularity + 2 drain lifes i could heal myself up in 8 sec from 10% to 100% (without cds or dmg procs, with BL or the lvl 100 haste talent it would be like 6 sec). That's still very strong. I tried in on an elemental shaman and he got himself in 4 casts (5.2sec) from 9% to 61% and was out of mana.

[wholol]

Well thats not a warlock issue, that's a ranged dps spec issue.

Ranged attacking melee from ranged with preparation and precast -> most melees will easily die.

Melee getting the first hit -> ranged dies.

Nothing new. Especially since the game isn't designed around 1v1. The same issue pretty much every ranged spec currently has (ask an elemental or a boomkin how long they survive if a rogue gets the opener...).

AFAIK they will still buff/nerfs specs vs templates anyways.

And dont forget: you also get pvp talents:
- Casting circle makes you immue to interrupts for 8 sec
- Essence Drain makes the target deal up to 25% reduced damage to you while channeling drain life
- Curse of weakness decreases physcial damage done by 20%

We dont know where the final numbers will be. But your example (rogues getting the opener) is a classic example why they never are going to be able to balance 1v1. Especially since some specs are very strong in 1v1 and dont contribute in group gameplay. And mobility like your portal still exist.

I'm not gonna argue about pvp because pvp isn't good in that game and never was balanced. But i dont remember a single time where a rogue getting the first hit from stealth wasn't gonna easily win against an equally skilled player, especially with the element of surprise.

And i dont think the elemental, boomkin or shadow will win a 1v1 vs a rogue, monk or dh unless they get the first hit from ranged.

And if we focus on pvp you also gotta include cc and pvp talents into your toolkit.

I just tested in beta and with phantom singularity + 2 drain lifes i could heal myself up in 8 sec from 10% to 100% (without cds or dmg procs, with BL or the lvl 100 haste talent it would be like 6 sec). That's still very strong. I tried in on an elemental shaman and he got himself in 4 casts (5.2sec) from 9% to 61% and was out of mana.

You shouldn't mention pvp if you do not pvp, everything you said sounds like an LFR player trying to convince a mythic raider why X class is good coz of how it performs in lfr, that's literally how your post looks like from a pvp stand point.

PvP wise affliction is the squishiest spec by far, the debate with affliction that soul link which was an iconic spell for the class was given only to demo and then affliction's playstyle was shifted towards self healing, which was then almost entirely destroyed in BFA, we're not here to discuss if u feel ok vs mobs while leveling because your VW can tank stuff.


U mentioned ele shamans earlier in ur quote, their wall is 1.5 min cd that's half our cd, shamans wear mail and have shields so they're relatively tankier vs pure physical dmg, their self heals are worth 3x what drain life can offer, they have multiple spell schools, can kite in ghost wolf, have stuns/slows/roots and knockbacks , all of which makes them one of the tankiest casters in pvp currently.


Hunters have wear mail, have the most mobility along with mage of any other ranged class, 30% heal on a 2min cd, freedom ,3 min cd bubble, disengage, slows/roots/stuns/knockbacks.

Mages have block ( or double block if frost/arcane has instant invis 60% dmg reduction 2min cd) , double blink ( or 4 blinks if arcane ), shields/ slows/roots/ multiple spell schools outside arcane and temporal shield in pvp.

Balance druids have extra armor in moonkin form and their bear form is the tankiest of any spec outside guardian ( check their pvp talents that further enhance it and moonkin form ), they have self heals , multiple spell schools , roots/stuns/slows.

Shadow priests, shadow form passive 10% physical reduction, can opt to have an addition 20% dmg reduction if above 60 insanity and not in void form ( 100 without LotV ) using edge of insanity, 2 min 60% dmg reduction ( can be talented to 95 %) , has shields/offhealing/stuns/slows/silence and Vampiric Embrace.

And I didn't even mention any of the main CCs of these classes.


So far SPs are about similar to how afflocks are on beta atm, maybe slightly ahead by a bit.

Just by comparison, how does affliction have it better ?

Affliction has 40% wall 3 mins cd , 25% heal on a 2 min cd that only starts out of combat, soul leech , demon skin which was nerfed to 0.5% , port and drain life.

Soul leech is basically slightly more than what SP's have build into their Vampiric touch, demon skin is mandatory coz we're paper af and it's not even enough, you cant pick dark pact coz u lose out on demon skin and dark pact uses current hp values to give you the shield so it's basically not worth it if u arent at 100%, D.circle is useful for los'ing but it's meaningless vs the majority of melee classes who have multiple gapclosers, drain life is a joke it barely does dmg and everyone wants to interrupt it, we have 1 spell school.

Mage is several times tankier than affliction both in legion and bfa btw and locks are supposed to be the tankiest casters. demo is the only spec that supports that playstyle mainly due to soul link.

Which is why everyone is asking for soul link added to all specs.

[thrill]

Seriously, if you don't see the problems with aff survivability in BfA you either don't understand the class, or don't understand pvp.

-Compared to legion with artifiact, healthstones heal for 50% less, and you won't heal when others use your healthstones anymore.
-Siphon life can no longer be taken with absolute corruption, meaning it will be super awkward (and likely not used) in PVE.
-Drain soul no longer heals. You will have zero healing in PVE beyond 25% healthstone (which shares CD with potions) and neutering your dps to slowly heal with drain life.
-Soul leech/demon skin were for some reason nerfed from 10/20% to 8/15%.
-You are still a cloth class with no passive damage reduction (soul link is long gone), no mobility, no real slows, no snares, access to only 1 spell school (so if you get kicked, you are kicked out of everything, unlike every other caster DPS), and on top of that have to deal with ramp up.

[Deleted]

Seriously, if you don't see the problems with aff survivability in BfA you either don't understand the class, or don't understand pvp.

-Compared to legion with artifiact, healthstones heal for 50% less, and you won't heal when others use your healthstones anymore.
-Siphon life can no longer be taken with absolute corruption, meaning it will be super awkward (and likely not used) in PVE.
-Drain soul no longer heals. You will have zero healing in PVE beyond 25% healthstone (which shares CD with potions) and neutering your dps to slowly heal with drain life.
-Soul leech/demon skin were for some reason nerfed from 10/20% to 8/15%.
-You are still a cloth class with no passive damage reduction (soul link is long gone), no mobility, no real slows, no snares, access to only 1 spell school (so if you get kicked, you are kicked out of everything, unlike every other caster DPS), and on top of that have to deal with ramp up.

You do know that this is still more than any other ranged spec has? Have you even tried Drain Life in Beta? The self heal is still enormous.

I can tell you what an elemental shaman has:
- 8sec -40% dmg with 90 sec CD (warlock has 3min cd and added interrupt immunity)
- No passive (Soul leech, can be increased by a talent)
- Healing surge - oom after 4 casts and non crit heals for less than 10% of your hp -> 0 dmg during healing surge casts (vs Drain Life, has more hps, no CD, no mana issue, can be increased by dmg modifiers)
- Reincarnation (30 min CD) (well of course, you can use it once in a whole m+)

- im m+ you will have to talent into the stun reduce, so you can only talent into movement speed totem or a small heal (20% at best every 45 sec) or a 2min grp heal cd

That's it. Additionally Demon Skin functions as effectively up to 15% more effective hp (10% untalented) or you can use Dark Pact for the big one shot stuff. Demonic Circle is also useful to avoid some one shot mechanics (e.g. Shade of Aran).

I just think that comparing everything to what we had in Legion isn't really fair. The Legion survivability was crazily overtuned. They nerfed a lot of stuff (like moonkins in bearform now get only 20% hp instead of 55% hp, making them less effective to oneshot mechanics).

PvP is a completely different thing. I didnt do PVP yet in Beta, but i am mainly raiding and doing higher m+ keys (in february i was farming 22-24 keys). I am quite happy playing in beta and really optimistic. Unless they completely mess up tuning.

And drain life is still very strong. Of course you lose some dps, but the reward is high and at least you deal some damage.

I am really wondering where all this negativeness is coming from? All 3 warlock specs currently look fine, they offer a strong toolkit, strong defenses, very strong aoe (yes, even affliction).

I might currently favor demo for various reasons (Soul Link, gameplay, aggro (demo shouldnt have any problem). But affli has a fine toolkit. And i can very well imagine switching to drain life for that self heal whenever needed. Especially in m+ (less likely in raids).

[wholol]

@Klatar

How come you don't mention switching to drain life as demo ? all of the things you mentioned for affliction also exist for the other 2 warlock specs, drain life is exactly the same for all specs, so is soul leech and HS.

So tell me why don't you mention using drain life as demo or destro ? I'll tell you why, it's because the other 2 specs have better survivability, you like demo because it has soul link , no shit, affliction wants that too, how can you say affliction is fine but it needs to sacrifice it's dps to drain life if it needs to but the other 2 specs don't, is that a logical statement in your eyes?

I'm very curious to see what kind of response you can give to counter the above statement.

[Lucrece]

It's pretty useless to argue with morons who think class survivability is balanced around open world questing anyways.

[wholol]

@Lucrece

I know but if we don't silence such ignorance it'll spread.

[lockedout]

PvP tuning is a different thing.

I think this is the problem, when people say just drain soul/life and your fine they are talking PVE. The people who are saying locks are in a bad state survivability wise are talking PVP.

[Jigglypuff]

I'm not gonna argue about pvp because pvp isn't good in that game and never was balanced.

The concerns about Affliction survivability are PvP focused so maybe you should exit from this thread?