View Poll Results: Should fakers go on ignore list?

Voters
209. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes! Fakers should be ignored.

    97 46.41%
  • Nah - they aren't worth the trouble.

    36 17.22%
  • There's nothing wrong with faking achievements.

    35 16.75%
  • I just link my Trial of Style.

    41 19.62%
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  1. #101
    Immortal Brewmaster Kolee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Well, "lie" is a strong word. I truly believe there are certain cases where faking an achievement is absolutely justified.
    lie

    noun
    noun: lie; plural noun: lies
    1. an intentionally false statement

    • used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.
    verb
    verb: lie; 3rd person present: lies; past tense: lied; past participle: lied; gerund or present participle: lying
    1. tell a lie or lies.
    "why had Wesley lied about his visit to Philadelphia?"
    synonyms: tell an untruth, tell a lie, fib, dissemble, dissimulate, misinform, mislead, tell a white lie, perjure oneself, commit perjury, prevaricate; More
    get oneself into or out of a situation by lying.
    "you lied your way on to this voyage by implying you were an experienced sailor"

    (of a thing) present a false impression; be deceptive.

    e.g. telling a raid leader you have an achievement you don't have.

    It may be a strong word, but that's exactly what it is. You are lying about your experience. Workplaces fire you when they learn you have lied on your application. As a RL, I would put you on ignore so as not to make the mistake of inviting you again.
    Last edited by Brewmaster Kolee; 2018-05-16 at 10:35 AM. Reason: formatting

    "Remember it's a game. Have a beer buff. Chill." ~ Brewmaster Kolee

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    lie

    noun
    noun: lie; plural noun: lies
    1. an intentionally false statement

    • used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.
    verb
    verb: lie; 3rd person present: lies; past tense: lied; past participle: lied; gerund or present participle: lying
    1. tell a lie or lies.
    "why had Wesley lied about his visit to Philadelphia?"
    synonyms: tell an untruth, tell a lie, fib, dissemble, dissimulate, misinform, mislead, tell a white lie, perjure oneself, commit perjury, prevaricate; More
    get oneself into or out of a situation by lying.
    "you lied your way on to this voyage by implying you were an experienced sailor"

    (of a thing) present a false impression; be deceptive.

    e.g. telling a raid leader you have an achievement you don't have.

    It may be a strong word, but that's exactly what it is. You are lying about your experience. Workplaces fire you when they learn you have lied on your application. As a RL, I would put you on ignore so as not to make the mistake of inviting you again.

    Well, per definition, yes it's a lie. But are lies always bad? Can you say that no lies are EVER justified? To give an oversimplified example, 2 guys apply to your group. Guy 1 has the achievement (got boosted or something), but is a terrible player, and Guy 2 don't have an achievement, so he links a fake achievement. You have only 1 spot and you take Guy 2 (who faked) and Guy 1 get invited to another group. That other group fails and disband cause Guy 1 is so terrible and keep wiping the group, while Guy 2, that you invited, turned out to be a god at the game, who just lacked current achievement and you oneshot everything and have a sucessful raid.

    Now, was his fake achiv, his lie, not justified? If you had gone by "the truth" you would have got Guy 1, who was in this scenario, awful and if Guy 2 hadn't lied, you never would have experienced his awesomeness.

    This also is an example how flawed achievements can be and that faking achivs can actually have good outcomes.
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  3. #103
    Scarab Lord NatePsychotic's Avatar
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    I mean if they're fakers but can pull their weight and not die to stupid shit, there's no sense booting them out. If they're the kind that wipes to dumb shit and doesn't do enough dps? For sure, get out.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Well, per definition, yes it's a lie. But are lies always bad? Can you say that no lies are EVER justified? To give an oversimplified example, 2 guys apply to your group. Guy 1 has the achievement (got boosted or something), but is a terrible player, and Guy 2 don't have an achievement, so he links a fake achievement. You have only 1 spot and you take Guy 2 (who faked) and Guy 1 get invited to another group. That other group fails and disband cause Guy 1 is so terrible and keep wiping the group, while Guy 2, that you invited, turned out to be a god at the game, who just lacked current achievement and you oneshot everything and have a sucessful raid.

    Now, was his fake achiv, his lie, not justified? If you had gone by "the truth" you would have got Guy 1, who was in this scenario, awful and if Guy 2 hadn't lied, you never would have experienced his awesomeness.

    This also is an example how flawed achievements can be and that faking achivs can actually have good outcomes.
    Except that you will never know which one will actually happen. This situation you described, or the one where the player linking you the fake achievemnt is actually garbage.

    You will never know which one is right. You will only experience one of these scenarios: You take the player with the high item level and achievement, or the player with the fake achievement. They will either mess up or they wont. Are you with me here?

    So coming up with these scenarios in your head changes absolutely nothing since the story you are telling does not address the core question at all. The core question is: When selecting a member for your raid group, should you kick and blacklist somebody who is faking the achievement? Remember: BEFORE you actually experience them in a raid group. When you are pondering over whom to invite. With no way of knowing who is ACTUALLY GOOD.

    Work with me here, because we are almost there. Now you tell me, which player are you going to take and why?

    You can say "hey Im going to give both of them a chance" or "im going to roll" or "im going to take the faker because he really wants it". Those are FINE and VALID reasons FOR YOU and YOUR GROUP.

    There is no right and wrong, simply "What would you do and how do you justify that?"

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Blutelf View Post
    Except that you will never know which one will actually happen. This situation you described, or the one where the player linking you the fake achievemnt is actually garbage.

    You will never know which one is right. You will only experience one of these scenarios: You take the player with the high item level and achievement, or the player with the fake achievement. They will either mess up or they wont. Are you with me here?

    So coming up with these scenarios in your head changes absolutely nothing since the story you are telling does not address the core question at all. The core question is: When selecting a member for your raid group, should you kick and blacklist somebody who is faking the achievement? Remember: BEFORE you actually experience them in a raid group. When you are pondering over whom to invite. With no way of knowing who is ACTUALLY GOOD.

    Work with me here, because we are almost there. Now you tell me, which player are you going to take and why?

    You can say "hey Im going to give both of them a chance" or "im going to roll" or "im going to take the faker because he really wants it". Those are FINE and VALID reasons FOR YOU and YOUR GROUP.

    There is no right and wrong, simply "What would you do and how do you justify that?"

    It's been a while since I lead groups myself, but back in the day, WoD/MoP/Cata days etc, when I lead myself, I had a simple philosophy. I never asked for achievement per se but it could help them get invited. I simply asked each signing member that had somewhat of decent gear enough (whether they signed in finder, or back in the day when recruiting was handled in trade chat) one thing, I said "Convince me to invite you". I actually held a small dialogue with the people and I gave them the chance to show that they could play. Some linked current curve, some linked old curve/cutting edge, some simply told me about previous raid experience they had. Just by talking to someone, you get a clue what kind of person they are. If they show some enthusism in their replies, it increased their chances alot etc. I also armory checked everyone, not just for some kill exp, but also to see if they have enchants, decent talents etc. I NEVER declined anyone for the lack of current curve or current experience, as long as they had SOME kind of previous experience of equal difficulty.

    And the raids were basically always successful. If someone messed up too much, he/she would be replaced, but it was very rare. And this is what I can't stand with todays game. People don't take the time to do proper recruiting for PuGs, which, believe me, is always worth the effort. Most leaders today are so ignorant. They ask for achiv cause its simple. But just look at finder. There are SO MANY groups that are "at this boss" or "at that boss". If recruiting was done properly, there would be so much less wipes and no need to constantly find new people. If recruiting had some effort put into it, and people saw beyond achievments, they could find actual good people, who just happen to lack the achiv, and perform wonders with them!

    I don't have the time to lead anymore. I wish I did, but I simply don't. I lead my raids, I contritubuted so to speak, for many years as a solid leader. Now I just wish that SOME people would lead in a similar way.
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    • Always looking for skilled OW players to push rating!

  6. #106
    Well, it's really up to You but it is also up to You to select better. You're not missing any tools (WoWArmory / WoWProgress / Warcraftlogs).

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