Should fakers go on ignore list?

[Deleted]

Well, per definition, yes it's a lie. But are lies always bad? Can you say that no lies are EVER justified? To give an oversimplified example, 2 guys apply to your group. Guy 1 has the achievement (got boosted or something), but is a terrible player, and Guy 2 don't have an achievement, so he links a fake achievement. You have only 1 spot and you take Guy 2 (who faked) and Guy 1 get invited to another group. That other group fails and disband cause Guy 1 is so terrible and keep wiping the group, while Guy 2, that you invited, turned out to be a god at the game, who just lacked current achievement and you oneshot everything and have a sucessful raid.

Now, was his fake achiv, his lie, not justified? If you had gone by "the truth" you would have got Guy 1, who was in this scenario, awful and if Guy 2 hadn't lied, you never would have experienced his awesomeness.

This also is an example how flawed achievements can be and that faking achivs can actually have good outcomes.

Except that you will never know which one will actually happen. This situation you described, or the one where the player linking you the fake achievemnt is actually garbage.

You will never know which one is right. You will only experience one of these scenarios: You take the player with the high item level and achievement, or the player with the fake achievement. They will either mess up or they wont. Are you with me here?

So coming up with these scenarios in your head changes absolutely nothing since the story you are telling does not address the core question at all. The core question is: When selecting a member for your raid group, should you kick and blacklist somebody who is faking the achievement? Remember: BEFORE you actually experience them in a raid group. When you are pondering over whom to invite. With no way of knowing who is ACTUALLY GOOD.

Work with me here, because we are almost there. Now you tell me, which player are you going to take and why?

You can say "hey Im going to give both of them a chance" or "im going to roll" or "im going to take the faker because he really wants it". Those are FINE and VALID reasons FOR YOU and YOUR GROUP.

There is no right and wrong, simply "What would you do and how do you justify that?"

[Battlebeard]

Except that you will never know which one will actually happen. This situation you described, or the one where the player linking you the fake achievemnt is actually garbage.

You will never know which one is right. You will only experience one of these scenarios: You take the player with the high item level and achievement, or the player with the fake achievement. They will either mess up or they wont. Are you with me here?

So coming up with these scenarios in your head changes absolutely nothing since the story you are telling does not address the core question at all. The core question is: When selecting a member for your raid group, should you kick and blacklist somebody who is faking the achievement? Remember: BEFORE you actually experience them in a raid group. When you are pondering over whom to invite. With no way of knowing who is ACTUALLY GOOD.

Work with me here, because we are almost there. Now you tell me, which player are you going to take and why?

You can say "hey Im going to give both of them a chance" or "im going to roll" or "im going to take the faker because he really wants it". Those are FINE and VALID reasons FOR YOU and YOUR GROUP.

There is no right and wrong, simply "What would you do and how do you justify that?"

It's been a while since I lead groups myself, but back in the day, WoD/MoP/Cata days etc, when I lead myself, I had a simple philosophy. I never asked for achievement per se but it could help them get invited. I simply asked each signing member that had somewhat of decent gear enough (whether they signed in finder, or back in the day when recruiting was handled in trade chat) one thing, I said "Convince me to invite you". I actually held a small dialogue with the people and I gave them the chance to show that they could play. Some linked current curve, some linked old curve/cutting edge, some simply told me about previous raid experience they had. Just by talking to someone, you get a clue what kind of person they are. If they show some enthusism in their replies, it increased their chances alot etc. I also armory checked everyone, not just for some kill exp, but also to see if they have enchants, decent talents etc. I NEVER declined anyone for the lack of current curve or current experience, as long as they had SOME kind of previous experience of equal difficulty.

And the raids were basically always successful. If someone messed up too much, he/she would be replaced, but it was very rare. And this is what I can't stand with todays game. People don't take the time to do proper recruiting for PuGs, which, believe me, is always worth the effort. Most leaders today are so ignorant. They ask for achiv cause its simple. But just look at finder. There are SO MANY groups that are "at this boss" or "at that boss". If recruiting was done properly, there would be so much less wipes and no need to constantly find new people. If recruiting had some effort put into it, and people saw beyond achievments, they could find actual good people, who just happen to lack the achiv, and perform wonders with them!

I don't have the time to lead anymore. I wish I did, but I simply don't. I lead my raids, I contritubuted so to speak, for many years as a solid leader. Now I just wish that SOME people would lead in a similar way.

[Deleted]

Well, it's really up to You but it is also up to You to select better. You're not missing any tools (WoWArmory / WoWProgress / Warcraftlogs).

[xindralol]

The achievement system needs major improvements. You can't even link lower achievements (ie regular dungeon achieve after you got the heroic one) or even check if someone has the lower achievement if you compare without going to the website. Similarly it's ridiculous how the UI lets you fake achievements with such ease and no way to tell by the link whether it's accurate.

Unfortunately AotC is a thing so can you really blame people for faking it? Obviously you shouldn't invite such people since it's your own set rule to require this but wasting space on cross realm ignore list for this seems silly.

[Deleted]

Why would anyone fake achievement if they can easily buy it?

Asking for AOTC is rather stupid, it only shows your incompetence. Its being sold 24/7. Ask for first boss on mythic achievement instead.

This, and it's not necessarily an addon they're using anyway.
All it takes is a macro with: /run DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("\124cffffff00\124Hachievement:12110:"..UnitGUID("player").. ":1:5:5:12:4294967295:4294967295:4294967295:4294967295\124h[Ahead of the Curve: Argus the Unmaker]\124h\124r")
to generate a link which they can then use.

[glowpipe]

Why would anyone fake achievement if they can easily buy it?

Asking for AOTC is rather stupid, it only shows your incompetence. Its being sold 24/7. Ask for first boss on mythic achievement instead.

So you mean that to join a heroic or normal raid, you need to show achievment for the first boss on a difficulty a shitload of player has NO interrest of ever setting foot in ? Its time for you to realize that you are part of the problem with achievements and why people are faking in the first place.

[Deleted]

So you mean that to join a heroic or normal raid, you need to show achievment for the first boss on a difficulty a shitload of player has NO interrest of ever setting foot in ? Its time for you to realize that you are part of the problem with achievements and why people are faking in the first place.

While you're right in general, he specifically refers to the OP who created a group for Mythic.

[Deleted]

It's been a while since I lead groups myself, but back in the day, WoD/MoP/Cata days etc, when I lead myself, I had a simple philosophy. I never asked for achievement per se but it could help them get invited. I simply asked each signing member that had somewhat of decent gear enough (whether they signed in finder, or back in the day when recruiting was handled in trade chat) one thing, I said "Convince me to invite you". I actually held a small dialogue with the people and I gave them the chance to show that they could play. Some linked current curve, some linked old curve/cutting edge, some simply told me about previous raid experience they had. Just by talking to someone, you get a clue what kind of person they are. If they show some enthusism in their replies, it increased their chances alot etc. I also armory checked everyone, not just for some kill exp, but also to see if they have enchants, decent talents etc. I NEVER declined anyone for the lack of current curve or current experience, as long as they had SOME kind of previous experience of equal difficulty.

And the raids were basically always successful. If someone messed up too much, he/she would be replaced, but it was very rare. And this is what I can't stand with todays game. People don't take the time to do proper recruiting for PuGs, which, believe me, is always worth the effort. Most leaders today are so ignorant. They ask for achiv cause its simple. But just look at finder. There are SO MANY groups that are "at this boss" or "at that boss". If recruiting was done properly, there would be so much less wipes and no need to constantly find new people. If recruiting had some effort put into it, and people saw beyond achievments, they could find actual good people, who just happen to lack the achiv, and perform wonders with them!

I don't have the time to lead anymore. I wish I did, but I simply don't. I lead my raids, I contritubuted so to speak, for many years as a solid leader. Now I just wish that SOME people would lead in a similar way.

This, pretty much. If I could have a meaningful conversation with who applied we were good. Some question about critical fights, about certain pug-killing abilities bosses had. "If Varimathas gives you Necrotic, what are you gonna do?" and stuff like that Eh, if they were nice, charismatic and polite enough, I'd even explain them if they didn't know, and then take them anyways!

There's no guarantees to get someone that's competent, but at least you can make the process nice and fun!

[glowpipe]

While you're right in general, he specifically refers to the OP who created a group for Mythic.

I guess i wrote a bit to hastily