I don't get it..

[Velshin]

"They try to establish a system in which a raid will nerf itself over time through titanforging or artifact power."

From the recent interview. I just don't get it...why? is it necessary ? I mean isn't gearing up by itself is a nerf to all encounters? why going to that length to nerf encounters overtime? no creating yet another system? we already have the gearing system which by itself nerf the encounters overtime.


Don't get me wrong I am no longer super mythic raider or anything like that but isn't that a little overboard? I mean if a fully geared (latest tier stuff) raiding group can't pass a certain encounter then the fault is not from the encounter but the players themselves?


Someone enlighten me if I missed something please.

[Sheor]

It keeps people playing... Therefore keeps money flowing, if there was no warforge or TF, you would get all your gear and have no reason to keep raiding. With it people keep raiding for that off chance of an upgrade. How I see it anyways.

[Linkedblade]

"They try to establish a system in which a raid will nerf itself over time through titanforging or artifact power."

From the recent interview. I just don't get it...why? is it necessary ? I mean isn't gearing up by itself is a nerf to all encounters? why going to that length to nerf encounters overtime? no creating yet another system? we already have the gearing system which by itself nerf the encounters overtime.


Don't get me wrong I am no longer super mythic raider or anything like that but isn't that a little overboard? I mean if a fully geared (latest tier stuff) raiding group can't pass a certain encounter then the fault is not from the encounter but the players themselves?


Someone enlighten me if I missed something please.

Technically gear is a Nerf. The power creep is exaggerated and tf/wf is a way to increase the power without introducing more content.

[Deleted]

Before we had plain 30% nerfs after a certain time or stacking like in ICC. Now we have steady playerprogression due to wf and tf and no nerfs. Its the same but difference but still the same.

[Twdft]

Gearing is a nerf, but it's not enough for most raid groups so another method is needed. Tryhards whined too much about obvious 30% nerfs so now Blizzard goes for not so obvious nerfs via artifacts. I am find with this.

[gushDH]

Every raid has been nerfed when it was almost over. Now they don't have to nerf it.

[Gorsameth]

"They try to establish a system in which a raid will nerf itself over time through titanforging or artifact power."

From the recent interview. I just don't get it...why? is it necessary ? I mean isn't gearing up by itself is a nerf to all encounters? why going to that length to nerf encounters overtime? no creating yet another system? we already have the gearing system which by itself nerf the encounters overtime.


Don't get me wrong I am no longer super mythic raider or anything like that but isn't that a little overboard? I mean if a fully geared (latest tier stuff) raiding group can't pass a certain encounter then the fault is not from the encounter but the players themselves?


Someone enlighten me if I missed something please.

Yes, the fault is with the player, not the encounter.

But data clearly shows that if people run into a wall that feels hopeless they will quit and if 20 people quit because of that, you don't have 20 people coming back next tier.

This is not Dark Souls where the developer doesn't care that you get stuck and quit, they already have your money.
WoW has to keep you playing month after month and that means they need to help 'weaker' players across the wall.

[Danvash]

They probably will still nerf the fights by mid June.

[Velshin]

Before we had plain 30% nerfs after a certain time or stacking like in ICC. Now we have steady playerprogression due to wf and tf and no nerfs. Its the same but difference but still the same.

Yeah but that 30% was old design it was before the introduction of LFR difficulty. Now we already have normal, heroic, mythic, and of course the easiest is LFR. This is why no need for the 30% nerf anymore not because of warforged titanforged stuff but because of the LFR.

[Deleted]

Yeah but that 30% was old design it was before the introduction of LFR difficulty. Now we already have normal, heroic, mythic, and of course the easiest is LFR. This is why no need for the 30% nerf anymore not because of warforged titanforged stuff but because of the LFR.

Its been happening recently aswell

[Velshin]

Yes, the fault is with the player, not the encounter.

But data clearly shows that if people run into a wall that feels hopeless they will quit and if 20 people quit because of that, you don't have 20 people coming back next tier.

This is not Dark Souls where the developer doesn't care that you get stuck and quit, they already have your money.
WoW has to keep you playing month after month and that means they need to help 'weaker' players across the wall.

But yeah that is what I mean...it is never ever hopeless as long as you get an upgrade gears every week which will slowly nerf the encounters. I don't know about hopeless but yeah I don't see anything like with some hours of wiping in certain encounters it will make the player a better player and learn from his mistakes and improve. We don't have to make things a breeze and cake walk just because they got stuck for few days or hours we should let them get better and develop a strategy to get better (at least this is my case when we get stuck in our guild with certain tough bosses, in fact this is what I love the most about raiding the element of improving and brain storming about what can we do next and how to change strategy and tactics to defeat the tough encounter).

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Its been happening recently aswell

Yeah the last time I raided serious mythic was at the end of WoD. I am only a regular heroic raider now so I guess I am missing out a lot.

[KaPe]

Yeah the last time I raided serious mythic was at the end of WoD. I am only a regular heroic raider now so I guess I am missing out a lot.

So you somehow missed the extra 10 item levels back in WoD? And the legendary ring, which was *far* stronger than Pantheon trinkets? Or the fact that Mythic items were *always* superior to Heroic ones, so killing a new boss almost always dropped upgrades, instead of relying on TF lottery? Or the actual nerfs to the place?

If anything, gearing is now worse than ever. Re-clearing mythic doesn't guarantee you any upgrades, you still have to count on TFs. Not only that, but you have two item slots which are "locked" by legendaries and will never be upgraded - three, if you use the Pantheon trinket. And two of those were available to the WF guilds, so that's another change in the gearing process - it had to be taken under account while balancing the place, while also reducing the power difference between first kills and people who only got there now.

Not only that, but Pantheon trinket has reached its' maximum level several weeks ago. There's no more "nerfing" the instance every week ... not to mention that this jump in strength wasn't even comparable to WoD ring.

Antorus is definitely an anomaly in their usual raid tuning. Or perhaps a new direction, which is not necessarily better.

[potis]

"They try to establish a system in which a raid will nerf itself over time through titanforging or artifact power."

From the recent interview. I just don't get it...why? is it necessary ? I mean isn't gearing up by itself is a nerf to all encounters? why going to that length to nerf encounters overtime? no creating yet another system? we already have the gearing system which by itself nerf the encounters overtime.


Don't get me wrong I am no longer super mythic raider or anything like that but isn't that a little overboard? I mean if a fully geared (latest tier stuff) raiding group can't pass a certain encounter then the fault is not from the encounter but the players themselves?


Someone enlighten me if I missed something please.

Because its how it has worked for the last 10 years, pretty much anything after TBC where the game started changing.

The raids are no longer "RPG" oriented and linear, there isnt stuff to counter with resistances or potions.

Its more active, faster gameplay with certain values.

Those values need to be logical otherwise its "not mathematically possible" or simply "Overtuned".

Therefor when the top guilds do their split runs and are pretty much 5-6 weeks ahead the first week, versus the others that dont, they fight those bosses with pretty much the gear they are meant to be fought with.

If they overtune things to require even bigger values than that, then the majority simply wont have the time to clean the raid or there isnt any room for error where the extra gear negates.

So, there is a specific tuning in HP/Damage values, after a few months and being 10-15 ilvl ahead, or legendaries, or weapon drops, or whatever there is on each expansion, it gives people the chance to clear the raid while being carried by their gear, as its happening either way for like 95% of the "Mythic" guilds out there.

People quit when they are blocked by something, and they will always blame something else especially in MMOs, its never their fault, despite there are 50-100 guilds clearing the raid the first 1-2 months with less gear, but its always something else.

[Velshin]

So you somehow missed the extra 10 item levels back in WoD? And the legendary ring, which was *far* stronger than Pantheon trinkets? Or the fact that Mythic items were *always* superior to Heroic ones, so killing a new boss almost always dropped upgrades, instead of relying on TF lottery? Or the actual nerfs to the place?

If anything, gearing is now worse than ever. Re-clearing mythic doesn't guarantee you any upgrades, you still have to count on TFs. Not only that, but you have two item slots which are "locked" by legendaries and will never be upgraded - three, if you use the Pantheon trinket. And two of those were available to the WF guilds, so that's another change in the gearing process - it had to be taken under account while balancing the place, while also reducing the power difference between first kills and people who only got there now.

Not only that, but Pantheon trinket has reached its' maximum level several weeks ago. There's no more "nerfing" the instance every week ... not to mention that this jump in strength wasn't even comparable to WoD ring.

Antorus is definitely an anomaly in their usual raid tuning. Or perhaps a new direction, which is not necessarily better.

I did got the legendary ring and it's upgrade items every week and progressed in mythic WoD HFC until Killrog mythic then I had some real life issues had to quit the mythic raiding scene at September of 2015.

[XDurionX]

Raids have nerfed themselves via gear since the very beginning of WoW, don't act as if this was new.

Players hitting a wall will quit. Players who can farm tf gear keep playing longer, it's really not that hard to get.

[Socialhealer]

progress mythic aggramar or argus, and then see if you feel like extra dps is needed.

(it's yes)

[Velshin]

Because its how it has worked for the last 10 years, pretty much anything after TBC where the game started changing.

The raids are no longer "RPG" oriented and linear, there isnt stuff to counter with resistances or potions.

Its more active, faster gameplay with certain values.

Those values need to be logical otherwise its "not mathematically possible" or simply "Overtuned".

Therefor when the top guilds do their split runs and are pretty much 5-6 weeks ahead the first week, versus the others that dont, they fight those bosses with pretty much the gear they are meant to be fought with.

If they overtune things to require even bigger values than that, then the majority simply wont have the time to clean the raid or there isnt any room for error where the extra gear negates.

So, there is a specific tuning in HP/Damage values, after a few months and being 10-15 ilvl ahead, or legendaries, or weapon drops, or whatever there is on each expansion, it gives people the chance to clear the raid while being carried by their gear, as its happening either way for like 95% of the "Mythic" guilds out there.

People quit when they are blocked by something, and they will always blame something else especially in MMOs, its never their fault, despite there are 50-100 guilds clearing the raid the first 1-2 months with less gear, but its always something else.

I agree with you and I understand what are you saying but back then it was possible indeed for some players to hit a wall in certain bosses in raiding for sure but now? we have a mythic+ gears which can be equal to heroic/mythic gearing (specially in BfA where they will remove the tier set bonus so mythic+ looks even more and more attractive in BfA now even now).


The reason I am saying this because the tuning now compare to vanilla and TBC raiding bosses is much better now and more advance. We don't have something like guild breaker Kael'thas pre nerf in TBC where guilds getting disbanded left and right for months and months getting stuck. Or Mu'ru in Sunwell where if you don't have sp and certain classes just /quit and don't bother to try at all.


The tuning now should be better than before in tern of raiding and bosses. They should design it to make it that if you have fully geared for that content tier = no stuck at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Raids have nerfed themselves via gear since the very beginning of WoW, don't act as if this was new.

I am not acting as if this is new man did you even read my OP ?

- - - Updated - - -

progress mythic aggramar or argus, and then see if you feel like extra dps is needed.

(it's yes)

That was not my point about the topic...

[Socialhealer]

That was not my point about the topic...

yes it was, your point was about nerfing the raid over time, and argus is a disgusting dps check of a fight, so every piece of TF nerfs it, some guilds are literally wiping to dps alone, not because they suck at mechanics.

so more artifact levels more TF gear, more dps they do which nerfs the raid over time.

this is better than a 30% icc buff, or just gutting the raid by 20%

[potis]

I agree with you and I understand what are you saying but back then it was possible indeed for some players to hit a wall in certain bosses in raiding for sure but now? we have a mythic+ gears which can be equal to heroic/mythic gearing (specially in BfA where they will remove the tier set bonus so mythic+ looks even more and more attractive in BfA now even now).


The reason I am saying this because the tuning now compare to vanilla and TBC raiding bosses is much better now and more advance. We don't have something like guild breaker Kael'thas pre nerf in TBC where guilds getting disbanded left and right for months and months getting stuck. Or Mu'ru in Sunwell where if you don't have sp and certain classes just /quit and don't bother to try at all.

Those bosses are greatly exaggerated by the stupidity of people back then too, even up to TBC, people raiding Black Temple/Sunwell were in the majority partly clueless about game mechanics.

I am saying this cause i saw live multiple times a guild wipe on M'uru to Pyroblasts because the raid leader wouldnt swap the tanks around,or the idiots wouldnt counter them properly, until they disbanded.

And many other guilds wiping to stupid shit for the same reason, they knew their class a bit, they knew what they are supposed to, but man, game mechanics and buggy shit were out of their league.

Game is different now, in terms of numbers, lets use Warcraftlogs.

You have to play 95% of your possible playing to clear the Mythic raid at lets say 965 item level.

That becomes 80% of your possible playing at 975 item level.

They simply cant tune the bosses were lets say, Argus will require 95% of your possible playing at 975 ilvl, its not supposed to work like that, because the balance isnt based around "BiS" Titanforging.

Balance is based around proper Math, which they usually do correctly.

Yes they fuck up completely sometimes like KJ Mythic and immune classes but even so, overall they are doing a good job.

[Velshin]

yes it was, your point was about nerfing the raid over time, and argus is a disgusting dps check of a fight, so every piece of TF nerfs it, some guilds are literally wiping to dps alone, not because they suck at mechanics.

so more artifact levels more TF gear, more dps they do which nerfs the raid over time.

this is better than a 30% icc buff, or just gutting the raid by 20%

Man did I ever say I want 30% nerf just like ICC and wotlk? of course no... but they said they will introduce a system other than the current gearing system to nerf the encounter itself overtime.

My point why we need a new system where the current gearing system is not enough to nerf the encounters overtime by itself?