Sooo... Leveling up with PvP enabled will be advantageous

[yinyatto]

Pretty sure nobaddy will pvp even at lvl 120. Everybody will have war mod on but everybody will ignore everyone. There will be like that 1-2 dudes tryint to PvP but rest will just abuse free bonuses.

Theres a good chance this will happen yeh.

- - - Updated - - -

That's why the bonus need to be like honor or marks or resources or whatever for KILLING other players, not tied to the WQ objectives.

Yeh the incentives need to be tied to getting involved in the pvp not subsiding you for taking the time to participate or to offset being ganked

[Eurhetemec]

So your argument is MMR can be implemented badly, so it's not good? What about MMR implemented correctly, matching more or less equal teams of opponents against each-other? I'd argue a 'world-pvp' player is exactly trying to avoid balanced match making, as they are actively looking to prey on the weak. The whole reason you don't like flying is that it gave people a 'way out'.

MMR implemented correctly is like communism implemented correctly. Theoretically amazing. But in reality it doesn't happen. I've played tons of games where it was a thing and it worked actually well about 10-15% of the time. So 85-90% of the time it was trash - usually giving you a mixture of people who were laughably bad, and you just rolled over, or people WAY better than you, who just rolled over you.

If you think world-PvP is about "preying on the weak", that's obviously laughable, because it's the fantasy of someone who has thought about world PvP a little bit, but never actually done it. In reality, world PvP cuts both ways.

The way they're implementing it, too, where only voluntarily flagged players can see voluntarily flagged players means no-one is getting ganked unless they signed up for it.

As for flying being a "way out", are you kidding? The whole issue is that flying makes ganking way more easy, and allows gankers to get away easily if anti-gankers arrive. That you don't know this makes it extremely clear you know zero about world-PvP. Some of us do it specifically to kill gankers - I mean that's kind of the most fun.

The point people are making is that it shouldn't be 'forced' through 'rewards'. For those that like it (gankers and grievers basically), if it is 'fine' it doesn't need rewards. It should in fact be disfavored as it obviously self selects the bottom of the barrel of the player-base.

This is deeply childish nonsense, not a rational argument. Everyone who likes world-PvP is a "griefer or ganker" and the "bottom of the barrel"? Come off it. That's a bizarre and ridiculous claim. Sounds like the extremely butt-hurt rantings of some guy who got ganked at the AH one time too many.

The reality is what you're afraid of is gank-y Rogues, and yeah, that's kinda lame, but pffft, it's not that big a deal, and especially not leveling up and without flying.

[Chaelexi]

Because arenas have always awarded such things.

SO they are now promoting open world conflict, they are wanting this to happen. Easiest way to promote this is by providing a reward for participating in this type of combat. You are acting like playing the PVE game is getting punished but it is the opposite, the PVE game is the baseline game and you get baseline rewards but when participating in the increased difficulty, increased risk and increased skill style of play you get increased rewards. As with the real world, do more work get more reward...

[Eurhetemec]

Sounds like some people need to review the definitions of 'force' and 'reward'.

Hux is basically doing the old "BLIZZARD LITERALLY POINTED A GUN AT MY HEAD BY MAKING PVP HAVE REWARDS AND I HAD TO DO IT AND NOW IM SO SO SAD " dance from TBC.

Warmode will go one of two ways, really:

1) It'll be kinda fun, and yes, encourage some non-PvPers to PvP.

or

2) It'll be this thing people turn on and then just ignore, because no-one PvPs.

[Chaelexi]

Sort of off-topic, but one-shot mechanics shouldn't exist. Failing to execute a mechanic correctly should result in increased difficulty or challenge that a group can rally from. It should not result in instant death and resetting the entire fight. Binary mechanics are poor design and should be avoided by the devs.

why is it so hard to not stand in a giant red swirly........ Binary mechanics can be a very good design as it allows them to design the engaging mechanics around them.

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You propably should expect the first bunch of lv 120 players to invade your continent on day 2 of the expansion.

That is my plan......

[HuxNeva]

The way they're implementing it, too, where only voluntarily flagged players can see voluntarily flagged players means no-one is getting ganked unless they signed up for it.

Which is the good thing. The bad thing is that they'll probably overincentivize it. If not, no problem, but given the track record ...

The reality is what you're afraid of is gank-y Rogues, and yeah, that's kinda lame, but pffft, it's not that big a deal, and especially not leveling up and without flying.

Afraid? Dude, it's a game, grow up. No-one is 'afraid'. It's just boring and tedious.

[Soon-TM]

Yeah, only rogues and fdruids, maybe tanks, will get to fastlevel, especially considering how FUBAR is PvP as of late... especially world PvP.

[Eapoe]

So we know two things now:

1: War mode (PvP mode) will grant us more XP and rewards

2: That factions will be leveling up in their own continent. Upon hitting 120 the other continent will open up.


This means that at the beginning THERE WILL BE ZERO PVP GOING ON since both factions will be leveling up to 120 in their own continent. Therefore, there will be no one from the opposite faction there to engage in PvP with....


This means there is just no reason NOT to use the PvP feature for leveling up when the expansion comes out...

Moderation Note: Fixed the thread title so as not to be deliberately misleading. You can level up without PVP enabled [ML].

Saverem's Note to Moderation Note: But muh clickbaits!

This is more than likely accurate, but this will only be for the first batch of mains. After a month or 2, maybe even in the 1st week, people that hit level cap will probably start ganking low levels or even people of their level, as there are rewards for it.

[Stormcleave]

I wonder how this will work if faction balance remains the same as it is. Currently there are so many Horde that they have to swarm Alliance PvP servers with Horde because their own realms can't handle the Volume. Even on Sargeras, the last Alliance server stronghold is inundated with armies of Horde from other servers. How will this work? Will there be 10 shards with 100 Horde and 2 Alliance like it is now? How will there be enough Alliance to spread around to match the vast number of Horde?

I will start out flagged for PvP as Alliance but if it's as poorly balanced as I think it will be I will unflag and remain so. There isn't enough Alliance to go around.

[Eurhetemec]

Which is the good thing. The bad thing is that they'll probably overincentivize it. If not, no problem, but given the track record ...

When have Blizzard ever overincentivized PvP? Seriously?

Blizzard has a long, long history of pathetically under-rewarding PvP (of all forms) relative to the amount of time, stress and effort put in. So track record-wise, there's no reason to think the War flag will give you something that's particularly valuable.

Now there will always be a few people who, if there is ANY INCENTIVE AT ALL to do PvP, feel it is overincentivized. If you were around for TBC, you saw this then - people losing their goddamn minds because you could get okay gear from arenas, albeit with a significantly higher time/effort investment than raiding/crafting/etc. Particularly funny in retrospect was people freaking out because people were buying spots on arena teams, and getting gear that way, and this was considered totally unacceptable.

Yet nowadays, if you look at trade chat on any populous server, it's basically being spammed by guilds and groups offering paid spots (and tons of loot) to people for current Mythic raids, and for high-end M+ content, and no-one seems to consider THAT a problem. Times change, eh, Garrosh?

Afraid? Dude, it's a game, grow up. No-one is 'afraid'. It's just boring and tedious.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I've played MMOs for 20 years mate. If you're claiming loads of people aren't literally afraid of PvP, then you don't know what you're talking about - whether you are personally one of them is a different question - but I wasn't even saying you were, I was using afraid in the normal English usage of "concerned about", not literally "fearful of". The threat of being ganked absolutely does make people afraid. Getting upset and saying stuff like "grow up" and ignoring the "concerned about" meaning suggests maybe this is something which you are afraid of. Being camped can definitely be tedious and boring, but it's much less likely to be an issue in the situations discussed here, what with scaling, no flying (when flying is largely used by gankers, not their victims), and so on. No-one is making you PvP, and if you find it tedious, you shouldn't be doing it.

Just weigh the gains against the fun for you.

I know like, 40% of higher-end WoW players are physically and mentally incapable of doing that, but I feel like you probably can.

If it gives you, say, 10% faster leveling, you have to ask yourself: is the stress or tedious-ness or however YOU want to put it, worth it to me? If you level 10% faster, but have no fun doing so, obviously it's not worth it, I'd suggest. In fact, let me say - if you really think world PvP is tedious trash, all the time, then, don't flag for War. It's like, I don't do pet battles. If I did them, there's stuff I could gain - and there have even been points where it was arguably the fastest way to level. Same for Archaeology. But I find it tedious. So I don't do it.

Why is it so hard for other people to not do things they find tedious?

[HuxNeva]

When have Blizzard ever overincentivized PvP? Seriously?

I wasn't specifically referring to PvP. In general Blizz seem to be 'directive' in how they see players should approach the game, and then layer on top some nudges through incentives of 'following the path'.

Blizzard has a long, long history of pathetically under-rewarding PvP (of all forms) relative to the amount of time, stress and effort put in. So track record-wise, there's no reason to think the War flag will give you something that's particularly valuable.

Now there will always be a few people who, if there is ANY INCENTIVE AT ALL to do PvP, feel it is overincentivized. If you were around for TBC, you saw this then - people losing their goddamn minds because you could get okay gear from arenas, albeit with a significantly higher time/effort investment than raiding/crafting/etc. Particularly funny in retrospect was people freaking out because people were buying spots on arena teams, and getting gear that way, and this was considered totally unacceptable.

Yet nowadays, if you look at trade chat on any populous server, it's basically being spammed by guilds and groups offering paid spots (and tons of loot) to people for current Mythic raids, and for high-end M+ content, and no-one seems to consider THAT a problem. Times change, eh, Garrosh?



The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I've played MMOs for 20 years mate. If you're claiming loads of people aren't literally afraid of PvP, then you don't know what you're talking about - whether you are personally one of them is a different question - but I wasn't even saying you were, I was using afraid in the normal English usage of "concerned about", not literally "fearful of". The threat of being ganked absolutely does make people afraid. Getting upset and saying stuff like "grow up" and ignoring the "concerned about" meaning suggests maybe this is something which you are afraid of. Being camped can definitely be tedious and boring, but it's much less likely to be an issue in the situations discussed here, what with scaling, no flying (when flying is largely used by gankers, not their victims), and so on. No-one is making you PvP, and if you find it tedious, you shouldn't be doing it.

Just weigh the gains against the fun for you.

I know like, 40% of higher-end WoW players are physically and mentally incapable of doing that, but I feel like you probably can.

If it gives you, say, 10% faster leveling, you have to ask yourself: is the stress or tedious-ness or however YOU want to put it, worth it to me? If you level 10% faster, but have no fun doing so, obviously it's not worth it, I'd suggest. In fact, let me say - if you really think world PvP is tedious trash, all the time, then, don't flag for War. It's like, I don't do pet battles. If I did them, there's stuff I could gain - and there have even been points where it was arguably the fastest way to level. Same for Archaeology. But I find it tedious. So I don't do it.

Why is it so hard for other people to not do things they find tedious?

tl;dr WoWis a Pve game, with a bad PvP game tacked on. The masses play PvP just fine, as success of PvP games prove (PUBG, Forthnight, LoL, CS-GO, Overwatch, ...). So in your definition of "afraid', I am afraid: afraid that the very worst part ('wPvP') of an already pisspoor PvP rendition will get 'nudged' by Bizzard trough over-rewards. Just like they did with Garrisonville. Yeah, you could ignore it, and then feel bad playing because you were the sucker that missed the gold-shower.

[Eurhetemec]

I wasn't specifically referring to PvP. In general Blizz seem to be 'directive' in how they see players should approach the game, and then layer on top some nudges through incentives of 'following the path'.

Sure, but we're discussing PvP. So you can't generalize like that and get a useful result. Historically, right up into Legion, Blizzard have under-incentivized PvP. The why of that is a long discussion, a very long one, so I won't bore you with it, but it's what they do.

So your fears here don't make much sense. You later talk about the "golden showers" that people who did Garrisons got (ahem), but you think PvP players are going to get hundreds of thousands of gold thrown at them? Because I do not. I think people who War flag will get slightly faster leveling, possibly slightly faster Azerite gains (but only when doing WQs - which are but one source of Azerite - I guarantee that you won't get extra Azerite in raids, dungeons, island expeditions or anything else where you aren't actually exposed to PvP), and not much else. The leveling will matter very briefly, and Azerite gains will end up being probably a tiny percentage of your total Azerite gains. I mean, if you say, got 20% of Azerite from WQs, and the rest from a combo of raids, dungeons, islands, wartable, and so on, then a 10% bonus would mean a total gain from flagging of... 2% OH NOES.

Bullshit figures, sure, but this is Blizzard, you think they're going to give a PvP-related deal serious incentivizes? Pffffft.

tl;dr WoWis a Pve game, with a bad PvP game tacked on. The masses play PvP just fine, as success of PvP games prove (PUBG, Forthnight, LoL, CS-GO, Overwatch, ...). So in your definition of "afraid', I am afraid: afraid that the very worst part ('wPvP') of an already pisspoor PvP rendition will get 'nudged' by Bizzard trough over-rewards. Just like they did with Garrisonville. Yeah, you could ignore it, and then feel bad playing because you were the sucker that missed the gold-shower.

When you TLDR and don't even understand what the other person was talking about, and make a non-sequitur response, as you did there, that's kind of sad.

Anyway, WoW has been a PvP game since day 1. Literally. For a very long time, PvP realms were more popular than PvE realms in both the EU and US. According to Realmpop (which I am skeptical of in a number of ways, but still seems to be our best data source here), they still are in the EU:

https://realmpop.com/eu.html

And in the US, they're still 41%: https://realmpop.com/us.html

And that's just PvP realms, not flagging, which once used to be common even on PvE realms. I mean, I'm pretty sure this is what Blizzard has noticed - up into Cataclysm, it was not at all uncommon to see PvE players flagged up, but it's gradually got less and less common ever since, and with Legion you almost never see it.

[Deleted]

all I know is that Blizzard will put A TON of people in every PvP shard.
so, when you want to do a quest, not only will there be PvP combat, but you'll be fighting over every single mob, at all times.
and I'm not talking about the first month of the expansion. there will be less PvP shards when less people level up, but the density will still be the same.

first month of the expansion: 1000 players * 5000 shards
later in the expansion: 1000 players * 1000 shards

having to fight over every mob, while getting attacked by the opposing faction should be +200% xp from mobs and quests at the very least.

leveling with PvP enabled will be the slowest ever. back in the day, you could level fast on a low populated PvP server. come BfA, there won't be any low pop PvP servers anymore. there will always be at least 1k people with PvP enabled.

it's funny to me, cuz this new tech will make WoW feel like an actual MMO for the first time. when was the last time you had 50+ people of the enemy faction in your zone? well in BfA there will be 500+.

every zone, no matter what level, will be like a battleground in BfA. it's going to be glorious.

[Alixie]

I foresee current PVP realms with large fraction imbalances will abuse the pvp bonus without worrying about the danger of pvp. Horde make up 90% of the population on Tich, and safety in numbers lets them quest in peace with little worry about getting attacked. They can easily swarm the handful of Alliance that they cross for free kills.

The reward system is less of an incentive than giving unbalanced servers even more of an unbalance.

Its stupid, but Ill take this over paying $200 to realm transfer. Im sure the "pvpers" will get bored that they cant gang up on the smaller fraction, or camp the flightmasters 23 hours a day.

[rubthesleep]

I foresee current PVP realms with large fraction imbalances will abuse the pvp bonus without worrying about the danger of pvp. Horde make up 90% of the population on Tich, and safety in numbers lets them quest in peace with little worry about getting attacked. They can easily swarm the handful of Alliance that they cross for free kills.

The reward system is less of an incentive than giving unbalanced servers even more of an unbalance.

Its stupid, but Ill take this over paying $200 to realm transfer. Im sure the "pvpers" will get bored that they cant gang up on the smaller fraction, or camp the flightmasters 23 hours a day.

but they are getting rid of servers basically when in world, so this doesnt apply. you pick pvp or normal and itll fill up servers. this is probably their way to make things more fair

[huth]

I foresee current PVP realms with large fraction imbalances will abuse the pvp bonus without worrying about the danger of pvp. Horde make up 90% of the population on Tich, and safety in numbers lets them quest in peace with little worry about getting attacked. They can easily swarm the handful of Alliance that they cross for free kills.

What is going to happen is the system pairing the Horde PvP pop of Tich up with that of other servers that are Alliance leaning. Simply because that's the only way to reach what Blizzard is going for, which is having people actually engage in PvP.

They're slowly abandoning the whole "Realm" concept. They're more there for the seperate namespaces now.

[HuxNeva]

Sure, but we're discussing PvP. So you can't generalize like that and get a useful result. Historically, right up into Legion, Blizzard have under-incentivized PvP. The why of that is a long discussion, a very long one, so I won't bore you with it, but it's what they do.

So your fears here don't make much sense. You later talk about the "golden showers" that people who did Garrisons got (ahem), but you think PvP players are going to get hundreds of thousands of gold thrown at them? Because I do not. I think people who War flag will get slightly faster leveling, possibly slightly faster Azerite gains (but only when doing WQs - which are but one source of Azerite - I guarantee that you won't get extra Azerite in raids, dungeons, island expeditions or anything else where you aren't actually exposed to PvP), and not much else. The leveling will matter very briefly, and Azerite gains will end up being probably a tiny percentage of your total Azerite gains. I mean, if you say, got 20% of Azerite from WQs, and the rest from a combo of raids, dungeons, islands, wartable, and so on, then a 10% bonus would mean a total gain from flagging of... 2% OH NOES.

Bullshit figures, sure, but this is Blizzard, you think they're going to give a PvP-related deal serious incentivizes? Pffffft.



When you TLDR and don't even understand what the other person was talking about, and make a non-sequitur response, as you did there, that's kind of sad.

Anyway, WoW has been a PvP game since day 1. Literally. For a very long time, PvP realms were more popular than PvE realms in both the EU and US. According to Realmpop (which I am skeptical of in a number of ways, but still seems to be our best data source here), they still are in the EU:

https://realmpop.com/eu.html

And in the US, they're still 41%: https://realmpop.com/us.html

And that's just PvP realms, not flagging, which once used to be common even on PvE realms. I mean, I'm pretty sure this is what Blizzard has noticed - up into Cataclysm, it was not at all uncommon to see PvE players flagged up, but it's gradually got less and less common ever since, and with Legion you almost never see it.

as said before appart from the suspicion of overinsentivation, I have no qualm with 'war-mode' and see it mechanically it as a welcome improvement on the PvP/PvE realm split. I don't agree that realm type populations indicate the willingness, let alone the 'enjoyment' of wPvP, which is a shitshow by (accidental) design (even though I don't PvP in WoW I have leveled characters on both types of realms).

[rrayy]

Pretty much yes. Though the leveling zones in BfA are seperate so it won't be much of an issue there. It's odd how Blizzard is trying to force people into PvP when it's not really a popular part of the game though. Not sure what they hope to gain.

They aren't forcing people into PvP. If they wanted to force people into PvP they would have made all servers PvP and they certainly wouldn't have given the players choice of having their flag on or off.

[HuxNeva]

I foresee current PVP realms with large fraction imbalances will abuse the pvp bonus without worrying about the danger of pvp. Horde make up 90% of the population on Tich, and safety in numbers lets them quest in peace with little worry about getting attacked. They can easily swarm the handful of Alliance that they cross for free kills.

They'll use sharding so in theory factions should be more or less balanced out. If however regionally e.g. 80% of PvP'ers would be alliance, then not even sharding will help the underdog faction. Since the goldshowers of Garrisons and Class hall missions combined with tokens for account balance made faction changes basically free, I expect over time that the potential for faction balance will diminish as the dominant faction will win. The interesting dynamic will be how the Alliance dominated PvP and the Horde dominated PvE will clash and which faction will become overall dominant. My money is on horde.

[Eurhetemec]

I don't agree that realm type populations indicate the willingness, let alone the 'enjoyment' of wPvP, which is a shitshow by (accidental) design (even though I don't PvP in WoW I have leveled characters on both types of realms).

So why on earth do you think people roll on PvP servers if not to PvP? That's bizarre. Talking about the main population here, not the 0.1% who are elite raiders. Certainly a few people roll on PvP servers who don't really even like the idea of wPvP, but it's probably a pretty small minority.

As for enjoyment, it's definitely declined in how enjoyable it is! That's what Blizzard are trying to fix here - the incentives are likely to be more there to get people to not dismiss it as objectively less optimal than non-War-mode. They're not going to be there to make it super-optimal, just to get people trying it not turning it off solely to level faster. J

Re: having leveled on both types, that just begs a bunch of questions, most importantly "when" and "to what level". The leveling experience on a PvP server in 2005 was massively, massively distinct from that in 2011, for example, which is distinct from the experience in 2018.