Ret Alpha: What feels good

[Kalisandra]

We could also talk about how little room there's for 'skill' to influence your results as Ret, from my own testing and reading what people have reported it seems you can do 90% of theoretical DPS as long as you have the "cookie cutter talents", use your GCDs and don't waste Holy Power...

Compared to other class/specs that have to plan and react to important procs in their rotation what does Ret have? Art of War passive (or talent) to reset the CD on a 2 holy power button? Gee, that's exciting...
What if we had something like a chance on hit with any finisher that a 'globe' of holy power appeared on the ground (stays for 10 seconds), once picked up we get 1 holy power and 6 seconds of Avenging Wrath? With that we would have to keep our eyes open, be aware of our holy power and move to pick it up. If we pick Hammer of Wrath as a talent we would also have to change our rotation.

Ret is okay to play, it's simple, smooth and boring. There's no "omg dps window" that opens up outside cooldowns or "Oh my party member is going to die, I'll put Sacrifice or a strong heal on him*", which most other specs have.
Ret just isn't exciting, at all, which for me personally is the biggest problem.

*Lay on hands excluded for being a 10min /7min cd.

Well, once upon a time we had all that lovely utility. Now it's gone. As for the "anyone can play this spec", well it was like that in LK too, and yet the variance in actual output I saw was immense. Don't think that just because any mug can theoretically get 90% of optimum just by hitting the glowy button that they will.

That said, I miss the late Cata and especially MoP rotation. Full of things to push, things to do, and easy to mess up but not hard to understand.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

That said, I miss the late Cata and especially MoP rotation. Full of things to push, things to do, and easy to mess up but not hard to understand.

Me too, #MeToo, MoP was by far the best class design in WoW. Not just for Ret but for everyone.
Yes Ret was a bit "undertuned" by the end, Set Bonuses made RNJEEZUS a real problem and DoT snapshotting for Affliction and Feral Druid turned stupid in the end... but all classes and specs that I played felt ‘full’ and had fun and challenging rotations.
The raids in MoP were fun as well, even the Panda/China theme grew on me. By far the greatest time in WoW for me!

Remember Druids had Symbiosis?
Absolutely 100% useless but it was fun, I remember spamming Wrath on Ra Den when I was calling the lightnings.
Selfless Healer for Ret actually healed more than a fart from a 6 year old...

Good times!

[Vintersol]

Good times!

Indeed. 40%+ haste, procs, how, raid cd, good mobility. I'd kept so many asses away from death with SH. I miss it alot.

[Kalisandra]

Me too, #MeToo, MoP was by far the best class design in WoW. Not just for Ret but for everyone.
Yes Ret was a bit "undertuned" by the end, Set Bonuses made RNJEEZUS a real problem and DoT snapshotting for Affliction and Feral Druid turned stupid in the end... but all classes and specs that I played felt ‘full’ and had fun and challenging rotations.
The raids in MoP were fun as well, even the Panda/China theme grew on me. By far the greatest time in WoW for me!

Remember Druids had Symbiosis?
Absolutely 100% useless but it was fun, I remember spamming Wrath on Ra Den when I was calling the lightnings.
Selfless Healer for Ret actually healed more than a fart from a 6 year old...

Good times!

The design model they used to the MoP rares was the best ever too, IMO. Longer respawn timers than WoD and Legion rares, interesting drops, and the model of big hits that you should avoid/CD through was nice. Judging by their conspicuous lack in later expacs, they were too much FFXIV for the dev and/or playerbase.

Also, Timeless Isle was where they got the "quest zone for this tier" design right - not too big or small, good flow so you could build useful circuits for chest and rare farming, and good scaling of mobs from entry point to the top. Compare with Tanaan, which was too spread out even when flying, and the Antoran Wastes which are so heavily packed with mobs that it's absurd.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Indeed. 40%+ haste, procs, how, raid cd, good mobility. I'd kept so many asses away from death with SH. I miss it alot.

Yep, back when the mark of a good Ret Pala was awareness of healthbars, CDs (sac/protection) as well as keeping up with your dps rotation.
Now it’s just keeping rotation and watching tanks for LoH and using Protection when told... /sigh

[Eurytos]

We could also talk about how little room there's for 'skill' to influence your results as Ret, from my own testing and reading what people have reported it seems you can do 90% of theoretical DPS as long as you have the "cookie cutter talents", use your GCDs and don't waste Holy Power...


What if we had something like a chance on hit with any finisher that a 'globe' of holy power appeared on the ground (stays for 10 seconds), once picked up we get 1 holy power and 6 seconds of Avenging Wrath? With that we would have to keep our eyes open, be aware of our holy power and move to pick it up. If we pick Hammer of Wrath as a talent we would also have to change our rotation.

I always thought the dot we used to have was how skilled rets could show off their skill. Being able to manage multiple dots on multiple targets was always enjoyable for me. Sure, it doesn't change much for a pure patchwerk fight, but even a 1boss fight with adds made it a challenge to keep a 5 stack on boss while dealing with adds. Of course, it could also be punishing. But at least there was some gameplay there that made you think, had costs and benefits.

Your orb idea is interesting. It has the flavor of that pvp talent where you could get burst windows of avenging wrath, i forget what its called. But I think it happened when a teammate was effected a certain way. What if our Blessings acted that way...all our blessings. I can see something where when the shield from Kings is fully consumed AW proc'd for 5 seconds. After Wisdom restored 50% of a players mana, 5 seconds of AW. If we had Sac, absorbing 100k dmg(or whatever) would give us 5 sec of AW, if Freedom actually freed someone from an immobilization(think back to Rotface? where a tank could get stuck in that ooze) 5 sec of AW. Protection...I'm not sure how BoP would work, maybe using it on a non tank that is getting melee'd by boss, idk.

You get the idea. Helping our raid helps us. Kings and Wisdom, as static buffs, more dependable AW procs for us. But on certain fights, optimal use of Sac, Freedom, and Protection could give us significant dmg increase. Or combine your idea with this...optimal use of blessings, in a given scenario, produces orbs we can gather for HP and AW, saving them up to gather all at once for a burst or use them as the pop up for more sustained dmg. Maybe we have an ability that gathers orbs nearby, so(considering our limited mobility) we don't have to stray far away from the boss to gather them.(maybe this is a bit greedy to have a collection button)

[BaseStamp]

It's finally time to let ret die. We always get screwed every expansion.

[chakley]

Me too, #MeToo, MoP was by far the best class design in WoW. Not just for Ret but for everyone.
Yes Ret was a bit "undertuned" by the end, Set Bonuses made RNJEEZUS a real problem and DoT snapshotting for Affliction and Feral Druid turned stupid in the end... but all classes and specs that I played felt ‘full’ and had fun and challenging rotations.
The raids in MoP were fun as well, even the Panda/China theme grew on me. By far the greatest time in WoW for me!

Remember Druids had Symbiosis?
Absolutely 100% useless but it was fun, I remember spamming Wrath on Ra Den when I was calling the lightnings.
Selfless Healer for Ret actually healed more than a fart from a 6 year old...

Good times!

You think ret rotation was really all that better in MoP?

MoP:
Keep Inquisition (ideally with 3 Holy Power).
Cast Templar's Verdict with 5 Holy Power.
Cast Exorcism on cooldown (generates Holy Power).
Cast Hammer of Wrath on cooldown (only available on targets below 20% health).
Cast Crusader Strike on cooldown (generates Holy Power).
Cast Judgment (generates Holy Power).
Cast Templar's Verdict with 3 Holy Power.


We get Inquisition and Hammer of Wrath options back. We have BoV and Justicar's Vengeance that MoP didn't have. Word of Glory especially now is better than Sacred shield or Eternal Flame. Execution Sentence is better, Selfless Healer I think is better. Only thing MoP had was movement speed and Exorcism.

[Kalisandra]

You think ret rotation was really all that better in MoP?

MoP:
Keep Inquisition (ideally with 3 Holy Power).
Cast Templar's Verdict with 5 Holy Power.
Cast Exorcism on cooldown (generates Holy Power).
Cast Hammer of Wrath on cooldown (only available on targets below 20% health).
Cast Crusader Strike on cooldown (generates Holy Power).
Cast Judgment (generates Holy Power).
Cast Templar's Verdict with 3 Holy Power.


We get Inquisition and Hammer of Wrath options back. We have BoV and Justicar's Vengeance that MoP didn't have. Word of Glory especially now is better than Sacred shield or Eternal Flame. Execution Sentence is better, Selfless Healer I think is better. Only thing MoP had was movement speed and Exorcism.

You've got your priority list of builders mixed up (Highest to lowest: HoW > Judge > CS > Exo in late MoP, in early push Exo up a step). But mostly, you're missing one important thing: we had enough buttons on short enough cooldowns that we were generally GCD locked in MoP - we were very seldom lacking something to hit that would do damage. In BfA there are large gaps in the rotation where you have nothing to hit for damage. More Haste will not make those go away, either - it decreases the GCD by the same amount as it decreases the CDs, so the gaps remain (they become shorter, but more common, for the same net downtime). This feels really bad and frustrating.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

You think ret rotation was really all that better in MoP?

MoP:
Keep Inquisition (ideally with 3 Holy Power).
Cast Templar's Verdict with 5 Holy Power.
Cast Exorcism on cooldown (generates Holy Power).
Cast Hammer of Wrath on cooldown (only available on targets below 20% health).
Cast Crusader Strike on cooldown (generates Holy Power).
Cast Judgment (generates Holy Power).
Cast Templar's Verdict with 3 Holy Power.


We get Inquisition and Hammer of Wrath options back. We have BoV and Justicar's Vengeance that MoP didn't have. Word of Glory especially now is better than Sacred shield or Eternal Flame. Execution Sentence is better, Selfless Healer I think is better. Only thing MoP had was movement speed and Exorcism.

You forget that we had Seals that we spread on multiple target (Censure iirc), which on 2 and 3 targets was a noticeable difference, and Seal of the Righteous which we would swap to if we had 4 (or 6) targets that stayed alive for at least 8 seconds or so.
We also had talent options which for the most part were functional, which the BfA talents aren't, yes they rarely changed for DPS purposes but for utility (healing) we could change around a couple things.
We had a couple of Glyphs that changed our min/max dps like Double Jeopardy (Judgement cast on a different target than the one before does 20% extra damage) and Melee range Exorcism which made it cleave.
We also had Hammer of the Righteous which was our "cleave" builder, which we don't have anymore... for some reason.
Hammer of Wrath wasn't a (F*£$ing) talent... seriously why is it a talent?
These things made Ret rotation not just a blind 'whack a mole' first come first serve (FCFS) rotation which it was after MoP, or it was made way...way worse after MoP. (WoD was really terrible, RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG.)

Then you have to factor in the utility and healing abilities and options we had and frequently used, if you were any good that is.
Things like Selfless Healer (amped up instant Flash of Light), Hand of Sacrifice/freedom/protection and Lay on Hands which for most fights had very strong uses. I can't count the number of times I've saved people from dying by throwing them a Selfless Healer (FoL) before a raid AoE and such, that's what separated the good Rets from the bad- their raid awareness to pull off saving moments.

We also had a raid CD, which in all honesty was OP, but since has been lost (but not before hunters and mages got to have a raid CD for a tier...) so I don't hold that against Blizzard.

-----------

In my eyes the MoP toolkit, rotation and "raid duties" were a lot better than anything since and before then.
It actually mattered at the end of the day (at logs) what you did or didn't do, choices like spreading Censure or changing your seal at the proper time mattered. It mattered a lot if you were able to save a raid (or party) member with your utility and not lose a lot of dps, back then we weren't a "yellow warrior" like we've become since mid WoD. We were specifically brought to raids because we had these tools and your ability to use them properly mattered, a lot.


And also... Exorcism = Blade of Justice
...it's just a rename.

[Deleted]

You forget that we had Seals that we spread on multiple target (Censure iirc), which on 2 and 3 targets was a noticeable difference, and Seal of the Righteous which we would swap to if we had 4 (or 6) targets that stayed alive for at least 8 seconds or so.
We also had talent options which for the most part were functional, which the BfA talents aren't, yes they rarely changed for DPS purposes but for utility (healing) we could change around a couple things.
We had a couple of Glyphs that changed our min/max dps like Double Jeopardy (Judgement cast on a different target than the one before does 20% extra damage) and Melee range Exorcism which made it cleave.
We also had Hammer of the Righteous which was our "cleave" builder, which we don't have anymore... for some reason.
Hammer of Wrath wasn't a (F*£$ing) talent... seriously why is it a talent?
These things made Ret rotation not just a blind 'whack a mole' first come first serve (FCFS) rotation which it was after MoP, or it was made way...way worse after MoP. (WoD was really terrible, RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG.)

Then you have to factor in the utility and healing abilities and options we had and frequently used, if you were any good that is.
Things like Selfless Healer (amped up instant Flash of Light), Hand of Sacrifice/freedom/protection and Lay on Hands which for most fights had very strong uses. I can't count the number of times I've saved people from dying by throwing them a Selfless Healer (FoL) before a raid AoE and such, that's what separated the good Rets from the bad- their raid awareness to pull off saving moments.

We also had a raid CD, which in all honesty was OP, but since has been lost (but not before hunters and mages got to have a raid CD for a tier...) so I don't hold that against Blizzard.

-----------

In my eyes the MoP toolkit, rotation and "raid duties" were a lot better than anything since and before then.
It actually mattered at the end of the day (at logs) what you did or didn't do, choices like spreading Censure or changing your seal at the proper time mattered. It mattered a lot if you were able to save a raid (or party) member with your utility and not lose a lot of dps, back then we weren't a "yellow warrior" like we've become since mid WoD. We were specifically brought to raids because we had these tools and your ability to use them properly mattered, a lot.


And also... Exorcism = Blade of Justice
...it's just a rename.

I didn't play MoP but except for Hand of Sacrifice, the other utilities you mentioned are still there right (BoP, HoF, LoH) ? How different was Bfa Selfless Healer in comparison with MoP ?

Ret also has Word of Glory in Bfa which is quite strong IMO.

AOE and Cleaving are really bad indeed

I also agree with Single Targeting which seems strong for ret (although number tuning isn't done yet) both in PVE/PVP.

AND I ALREADY MISS DIVINE TEMPEST !!!!

[killwithpwr]

I didn't play MoP but except for Hand of Sacrifice, the other utilities you mentioned are still there right (BoP, HoF, LoH) ? How different was Bfa Selfless Healer in comparison with MoP ?

Ret also has Word of Glory in Bfa which is quite strong IMO.

AOE and Cleaving are really bad indeed

I also agree with Single Targeting which seems strong for ret (although number tuning isn't done yet) both in PVE/PVP.

AND I ALREADY MISS DIVINE TEMPEST !!!!

Ret had Sacrifice and Aura Mastery in MoP, which made us way more viable in raids...
The Selfless Healer used to add % to the output as well as the reduction of cast time, but iirc that is going to be true for BfA as well now? Might be wrong on that one.

And personally i'd much rather have the Divine Storm and Templars Verdict of WoD back... Weaving them was way more interesting than aiming a projected Storm imo.

Also, Ret used to have Word of Glory back in MoP, but i'm pretty sure it wasn't as good as it's going to be now.

But we did have Sacred Shield and Emancipate, which were spammable and pretty nice imo.