WoW Has Never Been Harder, Players Have Never Been Better

[Joodoc]

They do deserve gear, but way lower ilvl. You cant possibly tell me a person who never stepped into HC(which drops 945 ilvl) deserves 965 equipped. Yes, I have seen that

Also, I did raid back in HFC and every time I joined for Archimonde lfr on an alt, grp had 5-6 Determination stacks, aka 5-6 wipes. Every time i've been coven lfr is 1 shot. Ofc a lot die to the flames and so but still 1 shot

You're also comparing the final boss of the expansion to a non-final boss of a raid. Also, more LFRs wipe on coven than one shot it, so either you have insane luck, haven't done LFR almost at all, or are lying.

Also, while yes Archimonde did have multiple wipes, after about a month and a half to two months the number of LFRs that wiped on archimonde dropped drastically, and he was the only boss that was wiped on in LFR more than freak accidents or extreme circumstance.

Currently there are still trivial bosses that are never wiped on in LFR, but not all of them nix the final boss are that way, and even months after release groups still wipe(albeit I can't say how many, I've only done a handful lately, but there are still wipes, which is loads more than this far after tier release in the past).

- - - Updated - - -

Information is just more readily available from 2006. That makes any games be easier, but yes, Blizzard have made the end-game of raiding harder, but it still dosen't make it harder 95% rest of the game.

Having 1 hard area, doesn't make wow hard. Lvling is faster than back then, gold grind is non-existent and gearing methods are more available than before.

Also, to many of us been here for too long. I personally don't play wow seriously any more for years really, but I still keep the rust away, but new players might be inexperienced, still if they want to improve its much easier than back in even just WOTLK let alone vanilla. I played terrible in vanilla, doesn't mean I didn't kill 5 bosses in naxx40, honestly it's embarrassing thinking back.

The gold grind as needed for more than superfluous things(like mounts) hasn't been in the game for many expansions. And needing a gold grind didn't make the game hard, it made it tedious, there is a difference.

[Deleted]

I think if you are interested in getting better at the game there are more ressources than ever before: boss guides, class discords, convenient simulationcraft thanks to the site raidbots, tons of WoW youtubers etc.

However if you play casual and don't even look for a minute at above named things (which is pretty normal for the casual playerbase which are like 75% of subscribers) there is no real incentive to get better since most outdoor world content is easily outgeared and lfr has determination stacks.

At the same time closing this gap from casual to a semi commited player who does nhc/hc raids and mythic+ beyond +10, so someone i would describe as playing the game at nearly it's full potential, has gotten quite hard to do.

I would still play this game as a cyclic player waiting for some story content, doing lfr once and maybe twink a bit if my friends wouldn't have gotten me into nhc and later on hc and even mythic raiding around late mop, even though i play this game since tbc

Try to play devils advocate a little bit, the incentive to go out of your "safespace soloque" and seeking some challenge in raiding and mythic+ is just pretty low nowadays, especially if your friends and colleagues don't play WoW, this is the only problem i got with lfr, it easily gives the feeling that you are done when the real beauty of an mmorpg is playing it with people you know or simply like together to overcome things the theme park throws at you.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Prepare for a world of hurt from the crowd pretending that 40-man raiding wasn't often a case of 15 good players carrying 20+ of the shittiest players on the server who just happened to be max level and thus needed for raiding.

[Joodoc]

LFR has never been harder:
Then why are only two good Healers needed? Seriously have you ever looked at healing done in LFR.
3 other healers can go AFK and boss still goes down with ease.
I find farming herbs less mind numbing than doing LFR. Me being a Healer.

Because every difficulty gets skewed when someone who massively outgears it is there. The amount of output between a 970 full heroic/mythic near perfect stat optimization set and a 915 who should be in LFR is INSANELY huge. Real LFR difficulty would be all 915 players. If you had all that, it would be incredibly difficult.

Likewise if all of the players were messing up more, you'd need more healers. If anything, the fact that fewer healers is needed is a testament to players playing better(on average).

[analmoose]

I could be wrong, but i seem to remember BC heroics being about the same level as M+10, until later in the xpac when you severely overgeared them. The game no is not even fractionally as challenging, and the playerbase is shit

[Craaazyyy]

Because every difficulty gets skewed when someone who massively outgears it is there. The amount of output between a 970 full heroic/mythic near perfect stat optimization set and a 915 who should be in LFR is INSANELY huge. Real LFR difficulty would be all 915 players. If you had all that, it would be incredibly difficult.

Likewise if all of the players were messing up more, you'd need more healers. If anything, the fact that fewer healers is needed is a testament to players playing better(on average).

nah it wouldnt be incredibly difficult if all the players in there were actually not afk

[Mercane]

World of Warcraft has never been harder, and more challenging than it is today. Likewise, the players that are playing WoW have never been better.

Even from the lowest levels, has never been more difficult than the LFR that was given in Legion.

Someone never did SoO/ToT LFR

[Firatha]

Yogg has just as many mechanics, if not more.
SoO garrosh has more mechanics than xavius.

Having bosses like Argus who res those and forgives mistakes makes the raid easy

https://www.method.gg/raid-history/legion

Considering XAVIUS world first took less than 48 hours and Argus took less than 2 weeks. Raiding is definitely easier. Yogg, Lich king, and even bc raids such as the eye and ssc took longer ....

The op is obviously troll. The flame rend is easily handled with 2 tanks that can turn toward a raid

Link provided shows world first timelines

Spoken like someone who has zero idea what they are talking about time in days/weeks is useless go read anything of the interviews of method exo or any other of the top 5 guilds after Avatar/KJ/Helya they all said its the hardest is ever been that time line is useless.

[gushDH]

I can't seem to understand what the point of this thread is. Is it to mention that LFR is a good thing or what?

LFR is good, obviously, just by looking at numbers.

[rogoth]

You can only believe that if you think that people who don't do Mythic don't deserve gear.

If the goal is: Funnel players up through the ranks of raiding into Mythic guilds, creating long-term health in the game, than Legion has done so.

But, if the goal is: Have much easier content (like Naxx40) that is harder to get access to solely for bragging rights, than Legion has failed.

Arguing in good faith, arguing with deeply held and rationally arrived at conclusions based on what you see in WoW, you cannot look at the casual raiding/5mans etc. and say it is easier than the past. It flat out isn't, the mechanics are more difficult to the point where even world first guilds said as much. At every conceivable level WoW has gotten harder, and it's playerbase has only gotten better.

You cannot look at LFR Archimonde and look at even LFR Coven of Shivarra and not say that LFR has gotten far more difficult over the years, but players have not noticed it because they have gotten better at WoW.

i want to address the 2 parts i bolded out, firstly, you must be high or blind or both if you think that legion has been a success in getting people into mythic raiding content, if anything it has been the polar opposite and actually seen the largest drop off of high end guilds since the game came out, and without the player numbers anymore to fill in those slots left behind, it has done nothing but decline over the course of the expansion to the point where there's less than half the guilds clearing mythic now than there was at the start of legion coming in from WoD.

second part, naxx 40 was hard, sure there was a few 'easy' bosses in there if you weren't a complete window licker, but it was a massive challenge, furthermore the attunement quest was tedious and EXPENSIVE which is what made it hard to do, the actual quest itself was relatively easy overall.

and in conclusion, no, the content hasn't gotten harder at all, the mechanics we are seeing for the most part are all mechanics we have seen in the past, only difference is that blizz have gone from things being one mechanic per boss, to just mashing them all together on the same boss encounter and calling it new, this whole expansion there have been 2 'new' mechanics added that we haven't seen too much of before, the darkness effect of kil'jaeden and the using death as a resource in argus the unmaker, which people to this day after how many months don't understand properly even after it is explained to them in detail, i did a heroic ToS pug earlier today and 90% of the raid couldn't handle the simple mechanic of stacking for harjatan, suffice to say the group wiped countless times on sisters because again, simple mechanic of soaking the arrow shot was something they weren't used to as it wasn't a thing in LFR, the sheer gulf in player quality now is astronomical and to think otherwise means you are deluded.

[iamthedevil]

LFR definitely used to be harder.

[Rainyhealz]

Spoken like someone who has zero idea what they are talking about time in days/weeks is useless go read anything of the interviews of method exo or any other of the top 5 guilds after Avatar/KJ/Helya they all said its the hardest is ever been that time line is useless.

Provide sources like I did, otherwise your words are meaningless

[Firatha]

Provide sources like I did, otherwise your words are meaningless

Your source has nothing to do with difficulty its time and it took me all of 2mins to find this https://www.method.gg/7-days-alone-a...jaeden-killers give that a read.

[Rainyhealz]

Time taken to progress is the most important variable. Idk man. I can’t help you

[Nitros14]

that's a very VERY faulty assumption.

lich king had limited attempts for starters.

TBC raids took longer due to attunement and insane gear requirements not because of skill requirements.

the raids have been objectively getting harder and harder, plus both Al'ar and Lady Vashj were literally unkillable for a couple weeks due to bugs.
and even after the bugfix Al'ar was only killable by pre soulstoning everyone before every attempt on a warlock alt. outside the raid

just look at the mechanics.

the first boss in mythic antorus has more mechanics than a final boss used to in TBC.

The number of mechanics doesn't mean much. It's how difficult those mechanics are and how harshly tuned they are and how harshly tuned the numbers check is.

[Teri]

Sorry, but LFR is too easy.

It's only very easy because you can massive overgear it, the few people who actually do damage are usually the 930+, if you enter with 890s and half AFK team, it's stupid instead of easy.

Yes if you had a 25 ppl in the minimal gear playing 80%, it'd still be easy but usually bosses like Coven, Argus are carried by 930s.

MoP gear levels were still closer together.

[iamthedevil]

The number of mechanics doesn't mean much. It's how difficult those mechanics are and how harshly tuned they are and how harshly tuned the numbers check is.

I'm guessing most people don't considered overtuned to be hard, they consider it to be bullshit until adjusted.

[Firatha]

Time taken to progress is the most important variable. Idk man. I can’t help you

I am not saying its not I am just saying that using that list is meaningless in this discussion and saying bosses which people the best in the world have on record saying are some the hardest are easy clearly means you know nothing about the current state of difficulty.

[Rainyhealz]

I am not saying its not I am just saying that using that list is meaningless in this discussion.

That list shows total wipes and days (time) . This could give insight as to how difficult a boss was.

[Nitros14]

I'm guessing most people don't considered overtuned to be hard, they consider it to be bullshit until adjusted.

Example: Mythic Coven or Felhounds or Eonar has tons of mechanics in play, but none of them approach the difficulty of defile+val'kyrs on heroic Lich King or empowering shadows on Alone in the Darkness.

The numbers check is an extremely important part of why something is hard, there isn't just an on-off switch of "Bullshit" or "Not bullshit".