WoW Has Never Been Harder, Players Have Never Been Better

[Ornzans]

My first experience ever with dungeons was during the middle of the Burning Crusade. I still remember how difficult the dungeons was at the time. Nowadays I can do mythic + dungeons that are above level 15 without any problems, and I consider those dungeons easy to do. If my skill level were to be reduced to the same level it was back in TBC, I probably wouldn’t be able to finish a dungeon on such a high level

If I were to go back in time to TBC with the experience I have today, I would probably find the dungeons easy.

I think a lot of people think that TBC was much harder than it actually was because of their skill level at the time when they did the dungeons. If those people were to go back to TBC and redo the dungeons, they would probably be surprised of how easy there are compared to the mythic + dungeons we have today.

[Re4leader1]

You are joking, right? The average player has never been this bad as they are right now. And the game has never been as "wellfare" as it is now, and players getting fed loot they havent earned.

Edit: I dont think the "let me play the game the way I want" guy, "or you could explain the fights instead of me reading journal" or the max level mage who has no clue what Time Warp is are gonna improve. Specially not by doing lfr. They just go there, die on first mechanic so they can afk and collect loot

So your saying it took more skill to kill trash and press 1 button in classic than it is to clear a mage tower?

[Rogalicus]

So your saying it took more skill to kill trash and press 1 button in classic than it is to clear a mage tower?

At least try to compare to something like Rhok'Delar or Benediction/Anathema.

[Deleted]

And WoW is going to get even harder in BfA.

I had trouble detecting your sarcasm meter.

[JackWest]

So your saying it took more skill to kill trash and press 1 button in classic than it is to clear a mage tower?

Dont go Cathy Newman on me. You can come back when you can comprehend whats being said/written

If you wanna compare "skill to kill trash" then and now, i'd actually argue that right now its way more "dumbed down" and "easy"

[Deleted]

No sarcasm intended.

Oh okay, so it was a joke? I guess it is was potentially funny.

[melodramocracy]

No, it also wasnt a joke. I think WoW got a lot harder in the last years, in special organized raid content.

Also, it gets more and more hard to have an ongoing character progression outside of rated pvp and organized raids, if we do exclude mythic dungeons at a high rating.

BfA is just the next step. Where world quests offer azerite only, but no gear. And where matchmade battlegrounds offer no character progression but a very slow progression having a daily quest for some conquest points and a weekly for epic matchmade battlegrounds. While every other conquest point gain needs you to play rated pvp. Also you need to have a pvp rating to get gear at all from pvp.

Most casual gamers do not play rated pvp at all. Legion removed the useful character progression from matchmade battlegrounds. BfA goes one step further and removes it also from world quests.

If this is accurate, you're going to see a huge drop-off in subs once folks get through the leveling portion of the expansion.

[killwithpwr]

And WoW is going to get even harder in BfA. Hazzikostas removes a lot of character progression from none-organized content.

Hazzikostas has a mythic raider bias. So just add 1 to 1 and you will know where WoW heads the next years.

And i dont think he really cares how many players the game will lose. As long his friends return to raid.

Ion has "Mythic raider bias"?

Then why is he promoting changes that harm the higher progressed players in the community more than anyone else in the game?

Remind me how are Pugs affected by the removal of Master Loot?
Please explain how an LFR player is not rewarded when he literally has a chance of getting the best loot in the game just by clicking a button and not get kicked from the group?
Or perhaps, you think that having a hardcore outlet for people who are more hardcore inclined are elitist jerks... Because everyone should get a participation trophy these days?

I never understood people like you.
Why can't you just be content with having your own niech in the game, do the easier content that is available to you, and let the better players have their own niech?

[SinAscendant]

No, it also wasnt a joke. I think WoW got a lot harder in the last years, in special organized raid content.

Also, it gets more and more hard to have an ongoing character progression outside of rated pvp and organized raids, if we do exclude mythic dungeons at a high rating.

BfA is just the next step. Where world quests offer azerite only, but no gear. And where matchmade battlegrounds offer no character progression but a very slow progression having a daily quest for some conquest points and a weekly for epic matchmade battlegrounds. While every other conquest point gain needs you to play rated pvp. Also you need to have a pvp rating to get gear at all from pvp.

Most casual gamers do not play rated pvp at all. Legion removed the useful character progression from matchmade battlegrounds. BfA goes one step further and removes it also from world quests.

It really has not. If you think this is hard, you haven't been playing very long.

Go back to Cata, where they had to nerf the original dungeons I believe twice because people couldn't beat them. I went into Zul Aman for the first time when it dropped in 4.1 and it literally took 7 hours to clear, with me and my little bro (both players who were hitting top 100 in raids at the time) in a pug. Mists had plenty of bosses where one mistake was a wipe, the dungeons weren't as hard though. Even Warlords, some of the raid fights were incredibly mechanically challenging (Blast Furnace/Maidens/Thogar off the top of my head, I stopped doing progression raiding after Blackrock).

Legion has middling difficulty dungeons, and some difficult raid bosses, but I feel like it's about average.

As for "progression outside of raids", why would you need to progress if you're not doing raids, M+, or PVP? There is literally nothing you need gear for. And besides that, my shaman is 940 and I haven't touched a raid this xpac other than LFR, and I've also been leveling alts the past three months. That seems like fine progression to me, having almost Heroic level raid gear without ever being in a raid.

[Deleted]

Looking back at vanilla raid mechanics...they must have been for retards.

[killwithpwr]

Yes. Have you watched his recent interviews? He entirely focuses on questions which are about rated pvp, mythic dungeons and mythic raid balance. Since a long time already. I recently collected questions which he never answers from the Q&A-hashtag and listed them. Typical questions like "Will we be able to queue up for isle expeditions" and "What kind of gear do we get from none-rated pvp", or any question about queue times of LFR or battlegrounds in general.

Have you watched or read any of his recent interviews?
Topics straight from his recent Forbes interview:
- Chromie scenario
- class mounts
- Mage tower
- Mythic mount drops
- Brawlers guild
- Proffesions
- Gear bonuses
- Alt upkeep difficulty in Legion
- Pre patch
- Darkshore world quest
- Battle for Lordaeron scenario

except the Mythic mounts (which are not going to be Mythic raider exclusive anymore) nothing here pertains to Mythic raiding (or any high end PvE content really)

For example?

Changes like the Master Loot removal, addition of Titanforging into the game, introducing incentives for higher end players to participate in way to much content that they don't want too, but they must if they wish to remain competitive, Introducing the 4 legendary "Lock" in the beginning of the expansion and i'm sure there are more thing that he championed that are overall a detriment to Mythic raiding.

Remind me how Pugs are a casual gamer only thing. The whole master loot debate is a massive hyperbole, and the casual-gamer is just a scapegoat for it. Thanks to preach and other warcriers.

Well, it can be different, depending on how you would define "Casual". To me, a Casual is someone who just doesn't have the time or doesn't want to get into scheduled content. It can be a "1 hour a day" type of player or it can be a "8 hour a day" type of player, but they don't do organised, scheduled content.
In that sense - Pugs are very Casual.
However, i don't see your point - i wasn't talking about being casual or not - Just so you know:

My point was, Pugs Won't be affected by the removal of Master loot, While Mythic raiders will be the most affected by this change.

For that matter, no one in this game will be affected by this change other than organised raiders and most of all Mythic guilds.

Another point, about the whole master loot debate being "Hyperbole" - What is hyperbole about it to you?
Is it that people talk about it with no apprehension of how and who it actually affects? Then i agree.

But LFR players do not get the best loot. Currently, they get 5 level above world quest gear, which does not make LFR farming worthwile. LFR has no real working character progression anymore since Legion.

I didn't say LFR players "GET THE BEST LOOT", All i said - There's a chance.
When there's a chance - it sometimes even happens.
Ergo - Players who have entered LFR have already gotten Mythic quality loot.
Ergo - Even without being dedicated to this game - you still have a chance of getting rewards equal to those who spend many hours on the harder content of this game.

Yes, if you play only LFR, you will never be as powerful as a Mythic raider, but that's not the point - again.

But perhaps this point is moot... I mean, who even cares about gear in WoW? right?

Actually, people who are not going to play rated pvp get participation trophies in BfA. If you are a organized raider, you will have an ongoing character progresion. And if you are a rated pvp player.

Umm... What? You seem quite articulate, so i guess this is some kind of phone auto - correction nonsense?

First of all, it should be a niche for the hardcore raiders, as they are the few. There are millions of casual gamers playing world of Warcraft. Second, LFR and matchmade dungeons are the most successfull implementations of allowing groups to see the content. So please tell me, why should organized gameplay have a focus again?

Well, when you say it like that - it does sound like a very niche situation.

You know what, why don't we just shut down Mythic raiding since it exists only to a small part of the player base? Yeah?

After that - Let's get rid of RP Realms, Not many players participate in those... No harm done.

Oh, and... PvP! If the participation is so low - Let's just streamline it!

You know what, Professions are not used as much as they used to... Let's remove them as well.

While you're at it - Why don't we just go ahead and make it so that WoW only has Leveling, LFR and heroic dungeons... Since that is what most players participate in, that's the only thing that matters... right?

[Nutrition]

It's true at the top end players have never been better but the average skill has never been lower.

A lot of it has to do with how much of wow can be accomplished without knowing more then the utter basics of the game. Even being afk will get you through heroic dungeons and lfr.

The best are getting better and the worst are getting worse is the best way to sum it up.

[digichi]

I remember when interrupting in Cata dungeons felt like you were playing the game at a peak level.

Because you knew that if the Earthshaper in Stonecore finished their cast, you were gonna wipe. Also i think that interrupts were still on the GCD, so you were more cautious with button mashing. That mob felt like it lived forever, and you'd best hope you didn't overlap an interrupt with someone else. You'd need atleast 3 interrupts before it died when it first came out, and it would usually get the last one off just as it died, because of the problems i stated above...

I was so surprised how QoL having interrupts off GCD feels (i think that started in WoD though.) In legion they definitely turned interrupting off 'chore-duty' and made it into a thing people were actively competing for (because of sephuz). That has really changed the feel of some things, i think its trained ppl to become better players because of the positive reinforcement and the GCD change.

[Nutrition]

I remember when interrupting in Cata dungeons felt like you were playing the game at a peak level.

Because you knew that if the Earthshaper in Stonecore finished their cast, you were gonna wipe. Also i think that interrupts were still on the GCD, so you were more cautious with button mashing. That mob felt like it lived forever, and you'd best hope you didn't overlap an interrupt with someone else. You'd need atleast 3 interrupts before it died when it first came out, and it would usually get the last one off just as it died, because of the problems i stated above...

I was so surprised how QoL having interrupts off CD feels (i think that started in WoD though.) In legion they definitely turned interrupting off 'chore-duty' and made it into a thing people were actively competing for (because of sephuz). That has really changed the feel of some things, i think its trained ppl to become better players because of the positive reinforcement and the GCD change.

I don't think I have ever seen pugs interupt outside of a mythic plus. Even then it isnt a sure thing.

[Deleted]

If this is accurate, you're going to see a huge drop-off in subs once folks get through the leveling portion of the expansion.

World quest do award gear on beta. That poster is spreading misinformation.

[Banard]

Ion has "Mythic raider bias"?


(1) Remind me how are Pugs affected by the removal of Master Loot?

(2) Please explain how an LFR player is not rewarded when he literally has a chance of getting the best loot in the game just by clicking a button and not get kicked from the group?

(3) Or perhaps, you think that having a hardcore outlet for people who are more hardcore inclined are elitist jerks... Because everyone should get a participation trophy these days?

Ion is old school vanilla, 1 character player type of person. Think about that and it puts Legion in perspective.

(1) it is to remove split runs to lessen burn out. It removes the need for alts. It equals the competition a bit buy allowing guild that cannot commit that much time to be "in the race".

(2) LFR existed long before Ion was lead, he did start making it "harder" in ToS but it was a after thought. Mains dont need LFR. The after thought was it should be used to improve players. A training ground...which it use to be.

(3) please google Ion and Elitist Jerks.


I agree he does not have "mythic bias" but he has a certain old school vanilla view and you can see it all around in legion.

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I was so surprised how QoL having interrupts off CD feels

What? What interrupt is off cd? They all have cds. What? Like....what? Can you imagine how op interrupt off CD would be in Pvp?

- - - Updated - - -

So please tell me, why should organized gameplay have a focus again?

It creates community and with community people keep playing. Pressing 1 button to join groups without 0 communication gets boring very fast. This is a mmo not a single player game.

I wish before every game design the developers ask " how is this going to organise gameplay, how is this going to promote community?".

I am not saying these function arnt good, but they have cost us something.

[killwithpwr]

Ion is old school vanilla, 1 character player type of person. Think about that and it puts Legion in perspective.

(1) it is to remove split runs to lessen burn out. It removes the need for alts. It equals the competition a bit buy allowing guild that cannot commit that much time to be "in the race".

(2) LFR existed long before Ion was lead, he did start making it "harder" in ToS but it was a after thought. Mains dont need LFR. The after thought was it should be used to improve players. A training ground...which it use to be.

(3) please google Ion and Elitist Jerks.


I agree he does not have "mythic bias" but he has a certain old school vanilla view and you can see it all around in legion.

No. It does not.

Yes, i am quite familiar with Ions Shaman.

1. Removing Master Loot does not remove split raiding, and will not remove the need for alts, at this point, there is no good answer on how to remove the need for alts in high end raiding, other than Homogensing all classes.

2. I was talking more about Titanforging, and granted it was in game before Ion was the game director, but it's still him who promotes it as a great system.

3. Just because Ion raids in the top 1000~ doesn't mean he has "Raider Bias"

[Banard]

Looking back at vanilla raid mechanics...they must have been for retards.

Got to put it in perspective: (1) wow was new and one of a kind, every one was still learning. (2) Think of the internet connections!

Game is what 14 years old? So everyone playing this game since then has 14 years of xp...think about that. If that was in a career and put down as xp in a field you would be a specialist.

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1. Removing Master Loot does not remove split raiding, and will not remove the need for alts, at this point, there is no good answer on how to remove the need for alts in high end raiding, other than Homogensing all classes.

It removes a huge incentive if not all the incentive. You can no longer focus all gear into certain toons...that is the whole point of split raiding. You take several mains and a bunch of alts and focus all gear to the mains. You cannot do that now...its all RNG. There is no point to bring mains and alts really. You cannot even pass gear you get unless its the same ilevel or higher.

It might reverse though....latter when mains have high ilevel..bring mains to gear up "alts" but this should slow down world first races.

[Krille]

Got to put it in perspective: (1) wow was new and one of a kind, every one was still learning. (2) Think of the internet connections!

Game is what 14 years old? So everyone playing this game since then has 14 years of xp...think about that. If that was in a career and put down as xp in a field you would be a specialist.

Yea you say that but the Vanilla loyalists think they're great at the game. When a keyboard turning noob who would struggle to clear normal difficulty raids today could clear Molten Core simply standing inside the raid and... Perhaps.. Do something? There were no tactics, target boss and shoot, maybe run away once or twice.

The difficulty of the game back then was largely logistics, attunements, correct resistances/gear and getting 40 people inside the raid. So while i agree with what you're saying. There are plenty of people that actually think WoW is easier today, because they turned casual and only experience LFR.

Mythic raiding for instance, tests your outmost capability to execute several mechanics at the same time. Human brains can only focus on 2-3 things at the same time, and even that is difficult. So you could say that mythic raiding (or at least some encounters) are pushing the limits of our attention span these days.

[Banard]

....

I am not going to argue that the game was harder then, it wasn't ...but you have to put it in perspective.