As Horde, i have no motivation to hate the alliance

[Baine]

I play both factions. So fighting the other faction is not compelling story for me. I prefer common foe stories.

[Arrashi]

Thing is, Alliance knows nothing about what Sylvanas is planning and are acting based on assumptions. Preemptive strike is perfectly fine action for Alliance to do, but don't get your panties in a bunch when this makes Alliance aggressors then.

But, but, but alliance are the good guys ! They can't do wrong !

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What about all those alliance peasants that are aggresive through the entire history of wow?

Oh right, that doesnt count, because it was self-defense or something in your mind.

Never forget those bloodthirsty fanatical pumpkin farmers in tirisfal.

[baskev]

You mean the exact same thing that happened in Theramore?

Mehrunes buddy.

Are you not usually very good at lore?!?!?! Taurajo the attackers warned them.

Theramore was only warned because Baine was shocked by garrosh his actions. So only by pure luck/help from Baine it was possible. It was not that Garrosh stood outside the gates and said...you civilians can leave....


So in short :
- 1 was warned by attacking force.
- Other was only luck because there was a "traitor" in the horde.

[Ryox]

I think BFA is a nice change, since it focusses on the horde vs ally heavy again. at this moment i have no reason to hate the horde or vice versa. (im a double agent, but i pref alliance) but BFA might change that.

[Deleted]

Mehrunes buddy.

Are you not usually very good at lore?!?!?! Taurajo the attackers warned them.

Theramore was only warned because Baine was shocked by garrosh his actions. So only by pure luck/help from Baine it was possible. It was not that Garrosh stood outside the gates and said...you civilians can leave....


So in short :
- 1 was warned by attacking force.
- Other was only luck because there was a "traitor" in the horde.

Since Garrosh his entire plan for Theramore was to have them be aware of the Horde their attack in the hopes that higher ranking members would gather in Theramore, it means that there had to be space for Alliance to get in and thus for non-combatants to get out.

It's even heavily speculated that he counted on Baine betraying them, and otherwise he would have made sure Theramore had another way of knowing about the impending attack. Either way, non-combatants would have been able to leave.


The attack on Taurajo started even before any civilians were aware of the attack, possible killing many. At least the attack on Theramore only killed non-combatants.

[Mehrunes]

Mehrunes buddy.

Are you not usually very good at lore?!?!?! Taurajo the attackers warned them.

Theramore was only warned because Baine was shocked by garrosh his actions. So only by pure luck/help from Baine it was possible. It was not that Garrosh stood outside the gates and said...you civilians can leave....


So in short :
- 1 was warned by attacking force.
- Other was only luck because there was a "traitor" in the horde.

There was no warning in Taurajo. The commander only left an opening in his lines so the civilians could escape through there. Horde on the other hand parked in front of Theramore for days, leaving the civilians ample time to escape. So while Garrosh didn't stand inside the gate with an official proclamation, what you say didn't happen is exactly what happened. And one faction giving the civilians from the other the time to escape was your entire point in the previous post.

[Deleted]

No, mate, that's not the context, and that's not the perspective.
The Horde knew about what Azerite could do. The Alliance didn't.
The Alliance, instead of going to Silithus with miners, decided to engage in an act of war by sendind spies there and taking ores of Azerite off of the Goblins.
If you still think the Horde started this, then you should read on Witness to the Wound, Free Samples (in which they stated that Alliance spies infiltrated Horde camps but haven't been able to steal the samples, so they send the PC to kill and take azerite for the Alliance), or even the not-so-subtle quest "It's a Sabotage", in which you deliberately destroy Horde Shredders.
Had the Alliance sent miners that the Horde killed because lulnoonetakesmahazerite I would've been with you in the idea of Horde starting this war... but Anduin and his bois sent Alliance spies to steal research and minerals during a time of peace (which was briefly disrupted by Genn himself, but that's another bone to chew on on another time, or maybe another thread).

Alas, all of what you just said is a load of bollocks since Sylvanas' stated goal is to make sure the Alliance doesn't get their hands on any Azerite. Nathanos goes as far as ordering the Horde players to kill any Alliance in Silithus, which would've included any Alliance miners. The only way to make the Horde look like the poor victims in Silithus is by conveniently forgetting those 'little' fact.

So yeah, you're spouting nonsense.

[Serenais]

There was no warning in Taurajo. The commander only left an opening in his lines so the civilians could escape through there. Horde on the other hand parked in front of Theramore for days, leaving the civilians ample time to escape. So while Garrosh didn't stand inside the gate with an official proclamation, what you say didn't happen is exactly what happened. And one faction giving the civilians from the other the time to escape was your entire point in the previous post.

Tides of War states that Theramore was only able to send one civilian ship out (towards Steamwheedle Port, mostly evacuating children, if memory serves). Everyone else stayed in, because the observed Horde fleet was considered to be too close for the civilian evacuation to be considered safe enough, and subsequently, the buildup of force in Theramore was considered enough to keep the city safely defensible (implied, not stated). It was also implied (although also not directly stated) that it was the reason why Garrosh kept the fleet there in the first place (also, to lure in as many Alliance and allied forces as possible), as they were given orders that made them very not covert and were removed from the scope of battle once their threat was no longer useful (much to the surprise of the rest of the Horde leadership).
When it came to Camp Taurajo, allowing civilian evacuation was the intent. With the case of Theramore, the intent was pretty much the other way around.

[Verdugo]

When it came to Camp Taurajo, allowing civilian evacuation was the intent. With the case of Theramore, the intent was pretty much the other way around.

Suddenly intent is important? What about Stormheim then.

[Deleted]

Alas, all of what you just said is a load of bollocks since Sylvanas' stated goal is to make sure the Alliance doesn't get their hands on any Azerite. Nathanos goes as far as ordering the Horde players to kill any Alliance in Silithus, which would've included any Alliance miners. The only way to make the Horde look like the poor victims in Silithus is by conveniently forgetting those 'little' fact.

So yeah, you're spouting nonsense.

Sylvanas states that after the Alliance already tried to kill and steal for it.

When does Nathanos even order that? And even if he did, there were no Alliance miners... The Alliance literally just send spies and assassins, so the statement "Kill any Alliance" is simply talking about SI:7.


We don't know what would have happened if the Alliance send miners to silithus, it's possible the Horde would have slaughtered them they might not have. But since the Alliance just went ahead and started killing and blowing shit up, it doesn't matter what the Horde might have done in a "What if" situation. The fact of the matter is, the Alliance attacked non-combatants, was tresspasing and blew up infrastructure.

[Serenais]

Suddenly intent is important? What about Stormheim then.

I believe intent regarding the two situations was being discussed. Only reason why I mentioned it.

[Mehrunes]

Tides of War states that Theramore was only able to send one civilian ship out (towards Steamwheedle Port, mostly evacuating children, if memory serves). Everyone else stayed in, because the observed Horde fleet was considered to be too close for the civilian evacuation to be considered safe enough, and subsequently, the buildup of force in Theramore was considered enough to keep the city safely defensible (implied, not stated). It was also implied (although also not directly stated) that it was the reason why Garrosh kept the fleet there in the first place (also, to lure in as many Alliance and allied forces as possible), as they were given orders that made them very not covert and were removed from the scope of battle once their threat was no longer useful (much to the surprise of the rest of the Horde leadership).
When it came to Camp Taurajo, allowing civilian evacuation was the intent. With the case of Theramore, the intent was pretty much the other way around.

They sent one ship out because majority of the people decided to stay and fight. And the intent at Theramore was not giving a fuck about civilians, because entrapping the military reinforcements was the goal.

[Cyram]

Alas, all of what you just said is a load of bollocks since Sylvanas' stated goal is to make sure the Alliance doesn't get their hands on any Azerite. Nathanos goes as far as ordering the Horde players to kill any Alliance in Silithus, which would've included any Alliance miners. The only way to make the Horde look like the poor victims in Silithus is by conveniently forgetting those 'little' fact.

So yeah, you're spouting nonsense.

If there were any Alliance miner, but there wasn't.
Fact is Alliance sent spies. No ifs, no buts, no howevers.
Alliance sent spies to infiltrate Horde camps, that's also a fact.
The whole questline is about spying and fucking up Horde campaments.
Need proof? Read the quests, again.
That ain't nonsense.
Again, had the Alliance sent miners to settle and start mining and then Horde killig miners I would agree Horde started a conflict... but no. Horde was mining, minding their business, and the Alliance movilized a military force.
You say I forget that "little" fact... No. The fact that she says any matters not when Alliance is stealing and fucking up Horde camps.
The speculation and the "But if X Sylvanas would've Y" is the only way people can defend the Alliance in Silithus, which is wrong, as they leave all the facts I and others have been highlighting and that are actually present in-game.
So, maybe pay more attention to that instead of snarking up here in the forums next time?

[Mehrunes]

Alas, all of what you just said is a load of bollocks since Sylvanas' stated goal is to make sure the Alliance doesn't get their hands on any Azerite. Nathanos goes as far as ordering the Horde players to kill any Alliance in Silithus, which would've included any Alliance miners. The only way to make the Horde look like the poor victims in Silithus is by conveniently forgetting those 'little' fact.

So yeah, you're spouting nonsense.

How far Nathanos actually goes is tell the player to "oversee the extraction efforts in Silithus and prevent the Alliance from interfering", not the fantasy you proclaimed here. Top notch fact you got here though.

[Serenais]

They sent one ship out because majority of the people decided to stay and fight. And the intent at Theramore was not giving a fuck about civilians, because entrapping the military reinforcements was the goal.

The civilians were not given an explicit way out one way or another, unlike Taurajo. Besides, evacuation of a city (which Theramore was implied to be, therefore, even by medievial standards, we are talking tens of thousands of people) by sea (land route is implied to be fully blocked, otherwise sea route wouldn't be considered, due to logistical problems) wouldn't be possible in mere days. After the battle, the civilians were not even left alone, but taken (as evident in SoO, where they are made to fight one another for amusement of Garrosh' military, clearly stating that they have no other choice, because the True Horde also hold their children hostage). The civilians may not have been the primary target, but they were not given a chance to evacuate. Given the nature of the target, they couldn't have been.

One way or another, the situation widely differs between Taurajo and Theramore.

[Deleted]

So hitlers is not to blamed for deaths in ww2? With your logic it doesn't matter who commands armies to do what they do it only matters who does it. Also many of the orcs fathers and families where starved to death or killed by the decision of gen and his allies at the time and they don't desire vengeance, so why should genn?

I don't even get what point you are trying to make.

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The more i think about it the more i think that Teldrassil is more of an attempt to strike Aliance in a way that knocks them out of the war before it has a chance to truely begin.

This is what I think, too.

[Mehrunes]

The civilians were not given an explicit way out one way or another, unlike Taurajo. Besides, evacuation of a city (which Theramore was implied to be, therefore, even by medievial standards, we are talking tens of thousands of people) by sea (land route is implied to be fully blocked, otherwise sea route wouldn't be considered, due to logistical problems) wouldn't be possible in mere days. After the battle, the civilians were not even left alone, but taken (as evident in SoO, where they are made to fight one another for amusement of Garrosh' military, clearly stating that they have no other choice, because the True Horde also hold their children hostage). The civilians may not have been the primary target, but they were not given a chance to evacuate. Given the nature of the target, they couldn't have been.

One way or another, the situation widely differs between Taurajo and Theramore.

Completely unblockaded sea route is not an explicit way out. Interesting. How comes a small gap in the Alliance formation during a fight is more explicit? And civilians of Taurajo were led to Quillboar territory where they were butchered, so whoopty doo, glory be to Alliance. And they were given no time, as opposed to the people of Theramore. They were only given a path to escape through only during the actual attack. I'd say a few days is still better than having to escape on the spot but apparently even this is something to which YMMV applies. Even though there were no logistic problems, because everyone who wanted to escape did, it's just most wanted to stay and fight.

[Serenais]

Completely unblockaded sea route is not an explicit way out. Interesting. How comes a small gap in the Alliance formation during a fight is more explicit? And civilians of Taurajo were led to Quillboar territory where they were butchered, so whoopty doo, glory be to Alliance. And they were given no time, as opposed to the people of Theramore. They were only given a path to escape through only during the actual attack.

The sea route was not unblockaded, and was left without an apparent threat for only the time between the end of actual battle and the mana bomb detonation. That was a day at best. Before that, the Horde navy was present close enough that the Theramore leadership didn't dare attempt an evacuation. That was explicitely stated in Tides of War. Garrosh must have been aware of that, as he used the threat of the Horde navy to lure in more Alliance and allied military, who wouldn't have come if evacuation of the city was an option at that time. Considering that Kirin Tor sent in mages who didn't even consider using portals to get people away suggests that even that wasn't a realistic option and thus was not realised.
Also, there was no implication whatsoever that the mana bomb was coming, after the defenders won the battle proper, only that the Horde military stayed some distance away from the city. At that point, evacuation was not a sensible option either, unless the city leadership had to be expected to count with a subsequent unconventional attack coming shortly after they succesfuly defended the city from the conventional threat.
The evactuation was either not viable, due to the number of potential evacuees and the Horde navy being close enough to be a threat to the evacuation, and subsequently, not an option, because the mana bomb was not even hinted to be used (or exist), and the city was considered the safest place for the civilians to be.

Camp Taurajo, on the other hand, was a training camp. For one, a training camp (also stated in Tides of War), therefore, not to be expected to be civilian heavy (depending on what one considers a civilian, though) for other, a camp, therefore, not to be numerous in occupants. Small space in the alliance lines would be more than enough for an impromptu evacuation of everyone present, which wouldn't have counted in more than a few dozens (otherwise, we're talking about a village, and the situation would be something else entirely). Also, as far as I am aware, nobody stopped the tauren from taking their personal posessions with them. The fact that the gaps led to quilboar territory, a species that the tauren evolved and coexisted with rather succesfuly (the only real threat before the orcs arrived to Kalimdor were the centaur). As such, while the Alliance could be blamed for the result to some degree (they really should've checked where the gaps in the lines are going to lead), however, it was pretty clear that the Alliance leadership during the battle made quite a few provisions to let the few dozen civilians present out. In fact, unless the camp was several hundred warriors strong (which its representation in game does not support, but possible can be argued one way or another), such a provision could allow for the entire population of the camp, not just civilians, to evacuate on the spot.

[Thage]

I primarily play Alliance and have no real motivation. The faction war's been reignited for a decade now and things will always follow the same cycle: someone does something stupid or shitty, a bunch of people get killed, faction war reignites 'this time for real, guys!' and inevitably cools back down because the writers remembered they built an entire cosmos full of shit that wants to kill everyone and everything on and inside Azeroth. Rinse and repeat ad infinitum with no real plot progression made on the faction war side of things, with the most notable changes made in BFA being that the factions are once again largely confined to one continent each like back in Vanilla. My suspension of disbelief regarding the faction war has been pulverized, powdered, made into glue, used as adhesive to glue together a new suspension of disbelief, and exploded when Mattis dropped the MOAB in Afghanistan.

/whoopdedoo

[enragedgorilla]

I am over the ,"Hate each other, WAR!! Oh shit there is a world killing baddie, UNITE! Ok They dead, now new xpac we hate each other again." Hamster wheel plot line.

At this point, I would be ok with a massive,simultaneous global strike on a faction, wipe them, their cities and most of their people completely off the map.(Think a arcane/magic enhanced Plague nuke)
Any survivors either live under the new regime or be easily wiped out.
or
Global "live and let live" wipe out the baddies as they appear.
Either or.

Blizz has gone to this plot trough way too many times.
I don't even care to "hate" ,get assed up about the other side anymore because I know by the mid-end of the xpac we will be "working for the common good" and that just doesn't light my fire to kill the other guys.

Seems more an engine to justify pvp to me, nothing more.