As Horde, i have no motivation to hate the alliance

[Darkguyver2020]

The Horde is full of idiots and assholes. Both in lore and in the playerbase.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Which means... what exactly? It certainly doesn't support your "I'm gonna heal the world!" Alliance Argument, that's for damned sure.

Yeah. Anduin. Whose personality has always been about peace to the point of it basically being an obsession immediately thinks of peace. Sylvanas whose whole thing is about her own power wants to "Raise Armies, Cities, Entire Cultures" or destroy them. Not "Raze". Raise. Half Creation, Half Destruction, and the creation of undead in service to her.

"What could be done with this! Anduin thought. How many could it heal? How many could it strengthen, soothe, invigorate, inspire?" ~ Chapter One of Before the Storm

It's a thing. Everyone focuses on the destruction part, but... yeah. She's Ambivalent. Destruction and Creation.

Anywho. The story Blizz is trying to tell is "Morally Gray". You're saying they're writing a story that's strictly black and white.

Again. Take off your blinders.

It probably feels strictly black and white to the people she wants to kill (all of Stormwind) and turn into zombies.

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The Self righteousness of this post just makes it all the funnier when you're putting Alliance down who insist they're always in the right.

Sylvanas could kill her own people right in the middle of a scenario and her MMO fans would still support her... oh wait.

[mickybrighteyes]

Give it up, you are arguing with a Sylvanas fanboy whose delusion goes well beyond any logic. That "Sylvanas raises the people she murders so she's a creator and not evil!" was used as an argument should tell you about how well any reasoning is going to go here.

It's very obvious the Goblins struck first in Silithus, because the Alliance had zero azerite samples beyond the single pebble sent to Stormwind, the Explorer's league deliberately stays away from the Goblins to avoid conflict, and the entire reason the Alliance players are brought in is because the SI:7 in the region are just scouts, not combatants who can forcibly take samples. There is no fucking murder spree, and no goblins are harmed, which is exactly why, when the Horde player shows up they're told the Alliance is "skulking around" not "murdering our miners!!"

you're head canon isn't the obvious statement because you wish it. Unless you WANT to run with the idea that the most advanced intelligence agency in the world is inept enough to ONLY grab a single stone and rush it up the chain with no additional information... keep in mind that even the lowest grunts of both nations normal ground forces are shown to put in more effort to fill out basic reports.

As a sub-lvl 10 random running quests to clear out non-threats for Goldshire you get tasked to do more recon than what your version of events is saying SI:7 allegedly did in Silithus here.... What happened? Did getting usurped by a dreadlord set the entire organization back to training day 1?

[Auxora]

I'm of the opinion why anyone would support the Alliance and Andiun, or hate the Horde, after the events of Before the Storm. It sounds like the OP is basing their opinion without reading that book, and just going off a limited amount of info in the beta. The most important cutscenes aren't even in the beta. But at a minimum reading Before the Storm is kind of a requirement to know what happened leading up to the BfA events.

Before the Storm semi-spoiler alert: Reading the events of Before the Storm, and knowing that Anduin invites a certain person to the family meetings that he knows full well to be a sworn enemy of Sylvanas, and worse yet was a usurper who Anduin knew might try to incite desertions from the Horde side. And that is exactly what the person did at the meeting. So I really struggle to see how the "blame" for the failure of that or the fallout from it was somehow on the Horde end like it seems like many think.

Again, apart from that we don't even know yet what curveballs Blizz might throw in the cutscenes. But even without them, in my opinion the blame for the failure of those meetings lies squarely on Anduin and him knowingly allowing Kalia to attend. It would be like showing up to a date and surprise bringing along their ex, and then blaming the other person when that doesn't go well. If I was going on a date with Amber Heard, I wouldn't surprise her by showing up with Johnny Depp.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I'm of the opinion why anyone would support the Alliance and Andiun, or hate the Horde, after the events of Before the Storm. It sounds like the OP is basing their opinion without reading that book, and just going off a limited amount of info in the beta. The most important cutscenes aren't even in the beta. But at a minimum reading Before the Storm is kind of a requirement to know what happened leading up to the BfA events.

Before the Storm semi-spoiler alert: Reading the events of Before the Storm, and knowing that Anduin invites a certain person to the family meetings that he knows full well to be a sworn enemy of Sylvanas, and worse yet was a usurper who Anduin knew might try to incite desertions from the Horde side. And that is exactly what the person did at the meeting. So I really struggle to see how the "blame" for the failure of that or the fallout from it was somehow on the Horde end like it seems like many think.

Again, apart from that we don't even know yet what curveballs Blizz might throw in the cutscenes. But even without them, in my opinion the blame for the failure of those meetings lies squarely on Anduin and him knowingly allowing Kalia to attend. It would be like showing up to a date and surprise bringing along their ex, and then blaming the other person when that doesn't go well. If I was going on a date with Amber Heard, I wouldn't surprise her by showing up with Johnny Depp.

1. Anduin allowed Calia to attend on the condition she remain in disguise and not announce herself. Naive on his part, but not ill-intentioned.
2. Anduin never ordered anyone killed that day, let alone his own citizens.
3. Sylvanas wanted the event to fail from the beginning, and said as much.
4. Sylvanas didn't just order the killing of civilians trying to flee her rule; she also ordered the murders of those who were trying to follow orders and return. Merely because they had the audacity to enjoy seeing their families again. The only ones she spared were those who had been spurned by their families, because she trusted them to back her one-sided view of the day's events.

[Amaterasu65]

Also worth noting: Sylvanas didn't send Civilians to Silithus.

Gallywix did.

Chief Bennet must not have read Before the Storm.

Those goblins are Gallywix's employees, they have probably accepted the fact that they can possibly be attacked in a contested territory while doing a suspicious job. Civilians don't go mining new found ore in order to create nuclear weapons to use on the enemy faction, and even if they do thry deserve to be put down when they take part in a secret political war strategy / practice.

The civilian night elves did not leave their home, did not go into contested territory, were not part of some undermined secret plan that could lead to the Horde's eradication. They were civilians. Sylvanas' Forsaken who died in Arathi, also civilians.

[mickybrighteyes]

1. Anduin allowed Calia to attend on the condition she remain in disguise and not announce herself. Naive on his part, but not ill-intentioned.
2. Anduin never ordered anyone killed that day, let alone his own citizens.
3. Sylvanas wanted the event to fail from the beginning, and said as much.
4. Sylvanas didn't just order the killing of civilians trying to flee her rule; she also ordered the murders of those who were trying to follow orders and return. Merely because they had the audacity to enjoy seeing their families again. The only ones she spared were those who had been spurned by their families, because she trusted them to back her one-sided view of the day's events.

gonna knit pick... it's not that Sylvanas wanted it to fail. Either way would work in her favor. Her spurned followers adhere to a thinking more in line with what she wished... and if it turned out better then it was another tool in her kit for control. So honestly, it didn't matter if the event went well or not from her position. She just didn't want to give Anduin or the Alliance a reason to start shit.

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Those goblins are Gallywix's employees, they have probably accepted the fact that they can possibly be attacked in a contested territory while doing a suspicious job. Civilians don't go mining new found ore in order to nuclear weapons to use on the enemy faction, and even if they do thry deserve to be put down when they take part in a secret political war strategy / practice.

The civilian night elves did not leave their home, did not go into contested territory, were not part of some undermined secret plan that could lead to the Horde's eradication. They were civilians.

the bold isn't even something anyone comprehends.

that's our out of game perspective knowing that something big is possible. So far as anyone in game is aware, azerite is new and the higher ups want it for some reason

[Amaterasu65]

that's our out of game perspective knowing that something big is possible. So far as anyone in game is aware, azerite is new and the higher ups want it for some reason

Yeah, edited it because tablet typing isn't my forte.

We knew Sylvanas wanted to create weapons out of it, and so did she. If she didn't have a secret plan against the Alliance they wouldn't be so secretive about it. She wanted to create weapons.

[mickybrighteyes]

Yeah, edited it because tablet typing isn't my forte.

We knew Sylvanas wanted to create weapons out of it, and so did she. If she didn't have a secret plan against the Alliance they wouldn't be so secretive about it. She wanted to create weapons.

That's true and all, but the goblins were in position on Gallywix's order before he even approached Sylvanas about it.

edit:

Gallywix seemed to only have a certain craving/need to acquire the stuff but not really understand what it was since he only had his one sample and wasn't big on sharing that.

[Amaterasu65]

That's true and all, but the goblins were in position on Gallywix's order before he even approached Sylvanas about it.

I know, I am not blaming Sylvanas for either. If she wants to ensure world domination by excavating the world's wound and making weapons out of it is fine. She has no obligation to answer to anyone on the opposite side if she has a domination agenda and doesn't care about the world dying.

My point was strictly associated with the goblins who were killee by the Alliance. I can't have them being called civilians alongside the Astranaar elves or the Forsaken in the novel because they are not. They took part in a secret political plan that could lead to war, they were employed to act so knowing the dangers (Gallywix was full of himself thinking the Alliance wouldn't find out with the best spy network right now) and acted this suspicious practice in contested territory. Had they been attacked in Horde ground, they would still not be civilians but the Alliance would be wrong.

[TheFirstOnes]

We should just drop the pretense and accept the fact that the Alliance should be torn asunder and their corpses burned only for the simple fact that they are Alliance and are in the Horde's way. We don't need anything more than that. The nation states of Azeroth aren't developed enough to practice sophisticated economic imperialism therefore we must remove the Alliance from their homesteads, take their lands and resources and claim it as ours. History disregards the weak. A pox on the alliance and their ilk. Death is all that awaits them and they should be grateful for its arrival.

...

Maybe destroying the Legion WAS a bad idea...

[mickybrighteyes]

I know, I am not blaming Sylvanas for either. If she wants to ensure world domination by excavating the world's wound and making weapons out of it is fine. She has no obligation to answer to anyone on the opposite side if she has a domination agenda and doesn't care about the world dying.

My point was strictly associated with the goblins who were killee by the Alliance. I can't have them being called civilians alongside the Astranaar elves or the Forsaken in the novel because they are not. They took part in a secret political plan that could lead to war, they were employed to act so knowing the dangers (Gallywix was full of himself thinking the Alliance wouldn't find out with the best spy network right now) and acted this suspicious practice in contested territory. Had they been attacked in Horde ground, they would still not be civilians but the Alliance would be wrong.

I wouldn't say that's enough to turn those goblins into figures more political than the high council running the undercity..... (the Desolate Council was the forsaken in the novel who got killed... they were running the undercity in Sylvanas' absence aka gov't officials). The goblins remain non-combatants as they are merely miners instead of trained field agents and aren't part of a military organization unless you want to count them as such simply because they were in Silithus.

[Amaterasu65]

I wouldn't say that's enough to turn those goblins into figures more political than the high council running the undercity..... (the Desolate Council was the forsaken in the novel who got killed... they were running the undercity in Sylvanas' absence aka gov't officials). The goblins remain non-combatants as they are merely miners instead of trained field agents and aren't part of a military organization unless you want to count them as such simply because they were in Silithus.

The Desolate Council acted within their boundaries. They were political but practiced within their limits.

I never said the goblins were military. Civilians do not take part in such practices. A civilian doesn't leave his home in order to be part of a secret super-mineral excavation for their leader. Those were Gallywix's employees. They probably signed a contract accepting the nature of this job. Many goblins make remark of their working conditions when they are killed by the Alliance in BfA. Civilians do not take such jobs. And yes, doing this while in contested territory doesn't hell treating them as such.

[Hitei]

you're head canon isn't the obvious statement because you wish it. Unless you WANT to run with the idea that the most advanced intelligence agency in the world is inept enough to ONLY grab a single stone and rush it up the chain with no additional information... keep in mind that even the lowest grunts of both nations normal ground forces are shown to put in more effort to fill out basic reports.

As a sub-lvl 10 random running quests to clear out non-threats for Goldshire you get tasked to do more recon than what your version of events is saying SI:7 allegedly did in Silithus here.... What happened? Did getting usurped by a dreadlord set the entire organization back to training day 1?

Or, you know, they sent an amount that could get back to Stormwind quickly and effectively for analysis, and then were ordered to keep an eye on the situation and did exactly that.

Look: There are events that are up to interpretation, like if Anduin can be considered responsible for Calia because he brought her there. This is not up to interpretation or debate.There is no headcanon involved.

Here is the fundamental, objective fact:

There is absolutely zero. ZERO information anywhere in game or in the book that says the Alliance ever even touched a goblin prior to the Alliance player being called in. That is not an opinion. It is fact. All the alliance do in the book is notice the goblins, get told to keep an eye on the Goblins, and get attacked by the Goblins after deliberately keeping their distance from them.

You are making up an event. What you are doing is the headcanon here. Because you don't want the Horde to be responsible, you are pretending, despite there being no reference to it anywhere, in anything, and multiple references to it not being the case, that the SI:7 agents for some reason started attacking and killing Goblins sometime off-screen that is then never referenced or mentioned by anyone.

It is made up. It is a 100% invention. No matter how much you want it to be true, there is quite literally nothing anywhere that says SI:7 attacked Goblins.

The only place where the Alliance attacks is in the Alliance quests, and we know, 100% that these quests happen AFTER the Explorer's league party is attacked. Because it is flat out said in the book prior to the attack that they have been unable to get any samples for research and just have to look at Azerite through telescopes to make observations--and in the Alliance quests, you bring samples to the Explorer's league.

There is no "version of events" here until you find the mysteriously missing event where SI:7 were killing goblins that completely contradicts with everything in the books and quests. Which go out of the way, even on the Horde side to only ever mention that the Alliance are spying and that




So you either have any evidence, at all, that SI:7 started something, despite the fact that even during the Horde quest where you kill the spies, they still are not attacking the miners, just sneaking around. Or it remains clear and obvious fact that the Alliance were attacked without provocation in the middle of the night by the Horde to kidnap Saffy. "B-but I think they would!" is not an argument.

[mickybrighteyes]

The Desolate Council acted within their boundaries. They were political but practiced within their limits.

I never said the goblins were military. Civilians do not take part in such practices. A civilian doesn't leave his home in order to be part of a secret super-mineral excavation for their leader. Those were Gallywix's employees. They probably signed a contract accepting the nature of this job. Many goblins make remark of their working conditions when they are killed by the Alliance in BfA. Civilians do not take such jobs. And yes, doing this while in contested territory doesn't hell treating them as such.

technically civilian just means not part of police force or armed services. So explorers, privateers, freelancers... as long as they aren't part of armed forces of some sort they can still be classified as civilians. People going of to work on a oil rig in the middle of the ocean don't stop being civilians because of what the oil may be used for

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@Hitei

You're version of events has varied from SI:7 was there first before anyone else was even aware to incorporating an explorers league who get sent in at a later date....

And you're whole schpeel is pot calling kettle since you've been trying to assert Alliance got on the scene first... and then argue they AREN'T being hostile and the reasoning you give for that latter bit is the same that can be said for the goblin miners. Now the story talks about more than one goblin organization... the mining operation, Gallywix's thugs, and Grizzek. Grizzek has no real connection beyond getting resources. Druz and Kizzek (the main thugs watching Grizzek) are the ones doing wet work, and the miners are all different legs of this operation and as for timescale.... that part is dubious at best and you call me out for unwillingness to accept horde aggressors is laughable when you've gone to such lengths with bad info trying to say alliance aren't in anyways aggressors.

The way I see it, you're HOPING SI:7 isn't starting shit and trying to state Druz and Kizzek (the ones directly responsible for the kidnapping) made teh first move, yet it seems that this takes place AFTER both SI:7 and the Goblin mining operation are already butting heads. You can claim "spies doing nuthin wrong" but they're being found and spotted in some capacity in an unspecified timetable that is transpiring between the time Shaw passes off the sample to Anduin and prior to him sending in the Explorer's League....

[Amaterasu65]

technically civilian just means not part of police force or armed services. So explorers, privateers, freelancers... as long as they aren't part of armed forces of some sort they can still be classified as civilians. People going of to work on a oil rig in the middle of the ocean don't stop being civilians because of what the oil may be used for

That's a nice wikipedia definition there, but this definition applies only within the nation's boundaries. They didn't act within Horde ground. They are still some sort of agents on Gallywix's behalf. The term civilian demands a) what you said b) activity in their territory. These goblins were not just explorers or miners that found the ore and wanted to get more. They were on orders of their leaders. In WoW, as in most old hierarchy models, racial leaders are both the highest in rank political and military roles. The racial leader is both the race's political representative and highest in rank general. If you are ordered by them to go and excavate an ore for political/war agenda in an uncontested territory, you are no civilian.

[mickybrighteyes]

That's a nice wikipedia definition there, but this definition applies only within the nation's boundaries. They didn't act within Horde ground. They are still some sort of agents on Gallywix's behalf. The term civilian demands a) what you said b) activity in their territory. These goblins were not just explorers or miners that found the ore and wanted to get more. They were on orders of their leaders. In WoW, as in most old hierarchy models, racial leaders are both the highest in rank political and military roles. The racial leader is both the race's political representative and highest in rank general. If you are ordered by them to go and excavate an ore for political/war agenda in an uncontested territory, you are no civilian.

well... it's not exactly Wikipedia

but I guess Geneva Convention isn't something worth citing on the subject of civilian classification in international disputes....

Now in WoW there's no such enforced laws or regulation and war crimes are more a joke overall because of this so really it's just a dick move eitherway.

edit:

the way you describe it, makes it seem like anyone who takes employment under something the government has some part in... stops being a civilian. So fishermen in the sea, mining or resource gathering operations, data housing centers, manufacturing positions... depending on how materials produced are utilized? someone who goes overseas to work retail or food services stops being a civilian? Sorry it doesn't work like that.

[Amaterasu65]

well... it's not exactly Wikipedia

but I guess Geneva Convention isn't something worth citing on the subject of civilian classification in international disputes....

Now in WoW there's no such enforced laws or regulation and war crimes are more a joke overall because of this so really it's just a dick move eitherway.

edit:

the way you describe it, makes it seem like anyone who takes employment under something the government has some part in... stops being a civilian. So fishermen in the sea, mining or resource gathering operations, data housing centers, manufacturing positions... depending on how materials produced are utilized? someone who goes overseas to work retail or food services stops being a civilian? Sorry it doesn't work like that.

We cannot practice real life world definitions easily, especially when it comes to practices in contested areas. There are international laws that bind most nations.

The goblins, the way I see it, are sent by their leader into a mission. The mission nature of the job excludes most civilian-ish practices. This mission is also taking place in secrecy, in contested region, involving new, unknown and potentially dangerous mineral. It's not just one side that justifies the exclusion of the term "civilian" and "war crime". It's the whole aspect of it and its multiple sides of said practice that in my eyes is not a civilian practice. Civilian of what? Silithus? I just cannot see it and I feel that many intentionally choose to not see it as well.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

technically civilian just means not part of police force or armed services. So explorers, privateers, freelancers... as long as they aren't part of armed forces of some sort they can still be classified as civilians. People going of to work on a oil rig in the middle of the ocean don't stop being civilians because of what the oil may be used for

edit:
@Hitei

You're version of events has varied from SI:7 was there first before anyone else was even aware to incorporating an explorers league who get sent in at a later date....

And you're whole schpeel is pot calling kettle since you've been trying to assert Alliance got on the scene first... and then argue they AREN'T being hostile and the reasoning you give for that latter bit is the same that can be said for the goblin miners. Now the story talks about more than one goblin organization... the mining operation, Gallywix's thugs, and Grizzek. Grizzek has no real connection beyond getting resources. Druz and Kizzek (the main thugs watching Grizzek) are the ones doing wet work, and the miners are all different legs of this operation and as for timescale.... that part is dubious at best and you call me out for unwillingness to accept horde aggressors is laughable when you've gone to such lengths with bad info trying to say alliance aren't in anyways aggressors.

The way I see it, you're HOPING SI:7 isn't starting shit and trying to state Druz and Kizzek (the ones directly responsible for the kidnapping) made teh first move, yet it seems that this takes place AFTER both SI:7 and the Goblin mining operation are already butting heads. You can claim "spies doing nuthin wrong" but they're being found and spotted in some capacity in an unspecified timetable that is transpiring between the time Shaw passes off the sample to Anduin and prior to him sending in the Explorer's League....

If Blizz had wanted the Goblins to be neutrals, they could have made them that way. There are certainly plenty of Goblins around that either side can talk to. These Goblins may not have been part of an organized military, but they were hostile to Alliance. They attacked and tried to kill any Alliance who came close. Probably because they were under same orders as every Horde player who accepted quest to go down there: "Kill any Alliance that come snooping around."

[mickybrighteyes]

We cannot practice real life world definitions easily, especially when it comes to practices in contested areas. There are international laws that bind most nations.

The goblins, the way I see it, are sent by their leader into a mission. The mission nature of the job excludes most civilian-ish practices. This mission is also taking place in secrecy, in contested region, involving new, unknown and potentially dangerous mineral. It's not just one side that justifies the exclusion of the term "civilian" and "war crime". It's the whole aspect of it and its multiple sides of said practice that in my eyes is not a civilian practice. Civilian of what? Silithus? I just cannot see it and I feel that many intentionally choose to not see it as well.

I think you're taking this the wrong way. You don't become a civilian 'of' the place you're working in... you're a civilian of the nation you're from. Those goblins are still part of the Bilgewater Cartel.... the explorer's league members are from wherever they came from before heading to Silithus. Both are civilian organizations sent to Silithus under orders of their respective leaders to pursue some goal.

But it seems that because the Goblins were mining something that has been turned into something important... they cease being civilians. Are the explorer's league also stripped of their civilian status because they were ordered to go to silithus as well?

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If Blizz had wanted the Goblins to be neutrals, they could have made them that way. There are certainly plenty of Goblins around that either side can talk to. These Goblins may not have been part of an organized military, but they were hostile to Alliance. They attacked and tried to kill any Alliance who came close. Probably because they were under same orders as every Horde player who accepted quest to go down there: "Kill any Alliance that come snooping around."

Well I'm sure the bilgewater cartel still remembers their free vacation to those lovely islands courtesy of SI:7 by way of cannon fire on the high seas.

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oh and can't forget the pointed meeting on those islands... diplomacy would have worked better if words were used first instead of sinking the boat first.