China's President Xi says internet control key to stability

[shadowmouse]

very much like the censorship your government does.

So, you confess my government censors free speech! Noted! Thank you!

[NED funded]

You miss the biggest point. Today, the strongest weapon of USA is information control and propaganda. They are constantly trying to get the control of other countries media to spread their propaganda against one party and to make them elect a puppet president or simply create civil wars. It is not even a conspiracy, in CIA declassified documents, you can read how many times they did it in the past (they only declassify files after a number of years).
The only way you can protect your country from this is to censure foreign information. But then when they do this, we call it an attack on freedom of speech and so we call their leader a dictator and so we have a reason to invade the country in the name of freedom.

I have never read such a stupid answer before. The only (current) propaganda outlets the US has are the Radio Free networks, the destabilization tactics of the US consisted on funding opposition groups, for the US strategy to be successful there has to be large swaths of people that are not comfortable with the current status quo. The only thing a country has to do in order to stop the plan is to govern well, I guess further cracking down on all sorts of freedoms also works, but honestly if the only way you can keep your country together or territories of it is through purging all dissenters and establishing a police state then you shouldn't govern tbh.

[Machismo]

So, you confess my government censors free speech! Noted! Thank you!

Yes, your government does... welcome to the conversation.

[shadowmouse]

Yes, your government does... welcome to the conversation.

Alright, just to make you happy ... My president is a complete jackass and probably a criminal. He and his cronies don't actually give a damn about the ordinary citizen. I admit that my government gunned down protesting college students back in the day and the troops even fixed bayonets. The pictures from that event should be remembered even if the events now seem far away.

[Machismo]

Alright, just to make you happy ... My president is a complete jackass and probably a criminal. He and his cronies don't actually give a damn about the ordinary citizen. I admit that my government gunned down protesting college students back in the day and the troops even fixed bayonets. The pictures from that event should be remembered even if the events now seem far away.

Great.

I hope you don't get arrested for speaking your mind.

[shadowmouse]

I hope you don't get arrested for speaking your mind.

I've talked to Swedish and Canadian friends about possibly applying for asylum. Things are getting bad with the new administration.

[Zmaniac17]

I'm of two minds on this. As an ideal, a free exchange of ideas sounds good, but recent events may cast a shadow on that ideal. Our "free" exchanges have become a battleground, where companies and governments may be increasingly acting to channel those discussions towards fixed targets. In the US we are currently looking for a way to deal with these trends as Zuckerberg testifies before Congress. The points this article quotes are in line with such concerns:



Nobody cares if you shout "fire" in the middle of a forest. If you do the same in a largely empty public space, the damage will probably be limited. If, however, you want to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, you've crossed the line for protected speech. China, with a population that gets reported somewhere between 1.3 to 1.6 billion (there are disputes about the extent of the unregistered population), is the equivalent of a crowded theater. New York is populous, so is London, and Beijing is larger than the two combined. There aren't just a lot of people here, there are a lot of people in close quarters.

I would love for my students to be able to access things like lectures on Youtube more easily ("Teacher, you're old fashioned, we can all get that.") but I'm less keen on groups like Eastern Lightning using the Internet to farm members. The potential for harm is probably much greater here, but consider this fairly current thread as an example of how the free exchange of ideas can go wrong: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Mosque-Shooter Eastern Lightning has been estimated to have a membership in the millions despite existing laws. If you have an interest in history, look back at the Taiping Rebellion and consider the similarities. Are these simply nice people being maligned by the government? Perhaps, but the Zhaoyuan McDonald's murder makes me think otherwise. That's just one example of the struggle over the Internet here.

In the long run, I think that these articles are right to question changes, but they also seem to fail to take into account the Chinese themselves. Chinese have relatives abroad, they travel abroad, they also have friends and family that work abroad and may have taken up residency overseas. Their kids go overseas to study, they often have extensive training from foreign teachers here in China, and there are a growing number of foreign tourists, employees, and students here. I think that the access Chinese have to outside influences tends to get underestimated.

I realize Chinese people think differently about the role of government in their lives. But I will offer my opinion as someone who grew up in a democratic nation.

If I could choose where I was born I would never pick a country with an overtly oppressive government (China fits that description). The argument that control of expression is necessary seems short sighted to me. The harder you squeeze people the more they rebel against you. At some point all the discontent will be focused on the government and change (maybe violence) will happen.

In the short term it may seem like cracking down is the only solution. But it's not, that is the easy solution. China understood this with capitalism in the 80's. But for some reason doesn't understand that they can't have a high tech economy without free thinking citizens.

They are going to instead create a society where only the rich who can afford to travel abroad will be free. This will be an inefficient use of their populations potential.

The western way of handling this problem is to offer choice. The choices are all very similar. It creates the illusion of freedom. Your rebellion can be co-opted and sold back to you.

This is of course also reprehensible, but it offers a way to stabilize society without completely crushing it's spirit. Free thinkers may get marginalized, but there is a path for their ideas to become reality. Even if that reality is a bastardized version of what they envisioned.

In China there is no path past the Communist party. There is no alternative party waiting to embrace better ideas when they come a long. Consolidation of power always ends in disaster. They will make mistakes and no one will hold them responsible. No one will challenge their ideas. And no one will question their orders.

“If you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you." Aaron Sorkin

[Player Twelve]

I realize Chinese people think differently about the role of government in their lives. But I will offer my opinion as someone who grew up in a democratic nation.

It's amusing that you think democratic nations are much better just because they're democratic for dissidents. Sweden is a very conformist society. The government isn't going to punish you for thinking different but the people will. You have people who have stated some things who have become such social pariahs after saying something people didn't like, that nobody wanted to deal with them again. Most famous case of this is a guy(Mauricio Rojas, he dared talk about problems related to immigration which at the time was not acceptable.) that came to Sweden as a refugee from Chile in 1974, who have moved back there now.

In his words to the question "Do you think you will move back to Sweden at some point, or were do you see yourself in a few years?" in an interview the response was: "Who knows, Sweden is ice cold against the different, dissidents...". , must have been fun for him to flee from Chile to come to Sweden and become a social pariah because he was a dissident and move back to Chile where he faces less ostracization.

The government doesn't have to actively target dissidents to make the country shit to live in as a dissident if the people do it for you due to a conformist culture.

[NED funded]

It's amusing that you think democratic nations are much better just because they're democratic for dissidents. Sweden is a very conformist society. The government isn't going to punish you for thinking different but the people will. You have people who have stated some things who have become such social pariahs after saying something people didn't like, that nobody wanted to deal with them again. Most famous case of this is a guy(Mauricio Rojas, he dared talk about problems related to immigration which at the time was not acceptable.) that came to Sweden as a refugee from Chile in 1974, who have moved back there now.

In his words to the question "Do you think you will move back to Sweden at some point, or were do you see yourself in a few years?" in an interview the response was: "Who knows, Sweden is ice cold against the different, dissidents...". , must have been fun for him to flee from Chile to come to Sweden and become a social pariah because he was a dissident and move back to Chile where he faces less ostracization.

The government doesn't have to actively target dissidents to make the country shit to live in as a dissident if the people do it for you due to a conformist culture.

The life of dissidents in well functioning democratic nations is not in danger, like it is in China. That is a pretty huge difference to just being socially ostracized, one is objectively worse than the other.

[Player Twelve]

The life of dissidents in well functioning democratic nations is not in danger, like it is in China. That is a pretty huge difference to just being socially ostracized, one is objectively worse than the other.

Being ostracized to the point you have to leave the country to make a living for yourself isn't really that much better. Sure, you're not going to be killed but you can't continue living in the country when nobody wants to deal with you.

[NED funded]

Being ostracized to the point you have to leave the country to make a living for yourself isn't really that much better. Sure, you're not going to be killed but you can't continue living in the country when nobody wants to deal with you.

It's infinitely better. Being alive is infinitely better than being dead.

[Player Twelve]

It's infinitely better. Being alive is infinitely better than being dead.

I'd rather be dead if I had to leave my family, friends and boyfriend, pretty much my whole life behind because people decided that I'm a social pariah because I dissented.

[Zmaniac17]

It's amusing that you think democratic nations are much better just because they're democratic for dissidents. Sweden is a very conformist society. The government isn't going to punish you for thinking different but the people will. You have people who have stated some things who have become such social pariahs after saying something people didn't like, that nobody wanted to deal with them again. Most famous case of this is a guy(Mauricio Rojas, he dared talk about problems related to immigration which at the time was not acceptable.) that came to Sweden as a refugee from Chile in 1974, who have moved back there now.

In his words to the question "Do you think you will move back to Sweden at some point, or were do you see yourself in a few years?" in an interview the response was: "Who knows, Sweden is ice cold against the different, dissidents...". , must have been fun for him to flee from Chile to come to Sweden and become a social pariah because he was a dissident and move back to Chile where he faces less ostracization.

The government doesn't have to actively target dissidents to make the country shit to live in as a dissident if the people do it for you due to a conformist culture.

No where in my post did I say that I think "democratic nations are much better just because they're democratic for dissidents". In fact, no where in my post did I mention dissidents. I stated that "If I could choose where I was born I would never pick a country with an overtly oppressive government (China fits that description)." I think you're sort of on your own train of thought here and reading heavily into what I said.

In regards to your post: I think that yes, social and societal pressures exist in all communities and nations. I for one am acutely aware of how society treats you when you are not exactly in lock step with it. People naturally look for the path of least resistance and so do the systems they create. The moment you represent an obstacle to them or their system they treat you with hostility. In some cases even if you just look a little different than they do they can assume you are an obstacle and treat you accordingly.

However, I believe that I live in a place that is relatively accepting of differences and willing to put for effort to accommodate those differences rather than seek the path of least resistance. Within reason of course. I do not wish to live in a place where the government uses any means necessary to enforce conformity on it's citizens. That does not mean that others are not willing to live under those conditions as I stated in the first sentence of my post "I realize Chinese people think differently about the role of government in their lives." I wish you had read it more carefully.

[shadowmouse]

@ Zmaniac17 China isn't "China" as I often see it discussed by those with limited exposure to things here. It isn't the Borg collective, if anything keeping a population that size on anything like the same sheet of music is more like herding cats. That's a difference in perception that the Chinese themselves want people to understand (read the preface to The Geography of Thought), A random guy on the subway a few days ago was taking the opportunity to practice his English and talk to a foreigner. He said to me: "China is like a lake. You're a foreigner and you can only see the surface, but Chinese can see all the way to the bottom of the lake." Let me ask you then, do you really have a point of comparison? You say what you feel to be the truth, but have you examined why you feel that?

In China there is no path past the Communist party. There is no alternative party waiting to embrace better ideas when they come a long. Consolidation of power always ends in disaster. They will make mistakes and no one will hold them responsible. No one will challenge their ideas. And no one will question their orders.

There are other parties in China, I've lectured at one of their schools. https://thediplomat.com/2012/08/chin...unist-parties/
http://www.china.org.cn/e-china/poli...rgnization.htm

What I find difficult for most people outside of China to comprehend is just how damned big the population is. Millions of people become a tiny statistic when expressed as a percentage of the population. People throw around those tiny percentages and they don't seem to be able to see past what that would be like in their own country. They can't see that when one is dealing with millions of people, there will be internal factions. As extensive as the Communist party is in China, there are internal factions that are well recognized by anyone studying China's government. Those internal divisions are not called separate parties, but they also represent paths for new ideas. Deng Xioaping is lauded now, but certainly had his share of problems on his way up. Xi Jinping seems like a sure thing today and he had a solid base to build on (a so-called princeling), but he could have tripped or been shunted aside anywhere along his rise.

I realize Chinese people think differently about the role of government in their lives. But I will offer my opinion as someone who grew up in a democratic nation. If I could choose where I was born I would never pick a country with an overtly oppressive government (China fits that description).

Have you looked at that critically? How do you know China has an overtly oppressive regime?

Was it through the news? I think the "fake news" idea is often overblown, but newspapers are a business and moving the product has created distortions since the days of yellow journalism. Consider "Remember the Maine". Today we have the echo effect and filter bubbles to push those effects even further. That's why in this and similar threads I try to get people to move past just repeating slogans. [Side note -- whether intended or not, I see most of the China threads posted here as echo chambers where people are mainly just tossing out one liners to score +1 on post count]

Was it through things that seem to be more of a personal account?

I always warn students that their foreign teachers are something like a visit to the zoo - that person may well be British, Canadian, American or whatever but they were also someone willing to leave the comfort of home and go to another culture. The same applies to Chinese overseas, they are Chinese and they have their own experiences to draw on, but they are also people who have chosen (for one of a multitude of reasons) to leave home and live abroad. The catch is, that some schools create an environment that students learn to manipulate. In many classes with Chinese teachers, they learn to say what the teacher would like to hear and they approach foreign teachers no differently. I once had a student from Inner Mongolia tell me a story: "I just had class with (X). I told him that in Inner Mongolia we had to ride a horse to school, and things were so tough we had to put three children on one horse. He believed it!" No, I knew full well that she came from a wealthy family, went to private schools growing up, and enjoyed driving one of the family SUVs around the grasslands. Take things you hear with a grain of salt.

News from expats can also require a shovel or two of salt. I know one crew who have themselves set up in a walled community filled with adopted children, as many as twelve per family. They fund a very plush lifestyle by telling churches in the US how they suffer in China to spread God's word and soliciting donations. They also put the kids on the Internet and solicit sponsorships.

I'll leave it there, but perhaps I've given you some examples to start questioning your assumptions. At the end of the day, you may still reach the same conclusion -- no matter what people tell me or how they cook it I still detest Brussels sprouts -- but at least think of testing why you believe things to be a certain way. As for that shovel or two of salt, apply it to my posts too. I tell anecdotes, but those are the experiences of one guy in one setting. I try to provide links people can check for themselves.

[lummiuster]

You are literally calling for propaganda and control in order to stop propaganda and control...

It's interesting that one can gain access to declassified documents from the American government, yet you are calling for outright opaqueness and censorship...

Jesus, the irony is fucking insane.

Yo. Stop trying to block all the information that goes against your manipulated beliefs. Propaganda to push their population to support political decisions is practiced by almost all states in the world. Propaganda in foreign states to push their population into doing what another states wants is often practiced especially by CIA.
Having access to foreign media grants you a lot of power over a population. Look at this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.392ec60f9ee6

I made a quick research to get that, much more reliable info are given in the official site of CIA...
There is no other way to protect their country from foreign propaganda.

- - - Updated - - -

I have never read such a stupid answer before. The only (current) propaganda outlets the US has are the Radio Free networks, the destabilization tactics of the US consisted on funding opposition groups, for the US strategy to be successful there has to be large swaths of people that are not comfortable with the current status quo. The only thing a country has to do in order to stop the plan is to govern well, I guess further cracking down on all sorts of freedoms also works, but honestly if the only way you can keep your country together or territories of it is through purging all dissenters and establishing a police state then you shouldn't govern tbh.

Why is it a stupid answer? Is it because it goes against the rhetoric you have been fed that claims they do this because they are evil and we gotta bring freedom?
Listen, it is a fact that CIA interfered in almost all the states in this world. Here's a link from Washington post, you can find much more details on the official site of CIA: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.392ec60f9ee6

[Machismo]

Yo. Stop trying to block all the information that goes against your manipulated beliefs. Propaganda to push their population to support political decisions is practiced by almost all states in the world. Propaganda in foreign states to push their population into doing what another states wants is often practiced especially by CIA.
Having access to foreign media grants you a lot of power over a population. Look at this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.392ec60f9ee6

I made a quick research to get that, much more reliable info are given in the official site of CIA...
There is no other way to protect their country from foreign propaganda.

What information have I proposed blocking? You seem to be associating me with my government, we are different entities. I don't support it when my government does it, and I don't support it when another government does it. Logical consistency is a wonderful thing.

You are literally telling me to stop doing something that you support, and I don't.

[Zmaniac17]

@ Zmaniac17 China isn't "China" as I often see it discussed by those with limited exposure to things here. It isn't the Borg collective, if anything keeping a population that size on anything like the same sheet of music is more like herding cats. That's a difference in perception that the Chinese themselves want people to understand (read the preface to The Geography of Thought), A random guy on the subway a few days ago was taking the opportunity to practice his English and talk to a foreigner. He said to me: "China is like a lake. You're a foreigner and you can only see the surface, but Chinese can see all the way to the bottom of the lake." Let me ask you then, do you really have a point of comparison? You say what you feel to be the truth, but have you examined why you feel that?




There are other parties in China, I've lectured at one of their schools. https://thediplomat.com/2012/08/chin...unist-parties/
http://www.china.org.cn/e-china/poli...rgnization.htm

What I find difficult for most people outside of China to comprehend is just how damned big the population is. Millions of people become a tiny statistic when expressed as a percentage of the population. People throw around those tiny percentages and they don't seem to be able to see past what that would be like in their own country. They can't see that when one is dealing with millions of people, there will be internal factions. As extensive as the Communist party is in China, there are internal factions that are well recognized by anyone studying China's government. Those internal divisions are not called separate parties, but they also represent paths for new ideas. Deng Xioaping is lauded now, but certainly had his share of problems on his way up. Xi Jinping seems like a sure thing today and he had a solid base to build on (a so-called princeling), but he could have tripped or been shunted aside anywhere along his rise.



Have you looked at that critically? How do you know China has an overtly oppressive regime?

Was it through the news? I think the "fake news" idea is often overblown, but newspapers are a business and moving the product has created distortions since the days of yellow journalism. Consider "Remember the Maine". Today we have the echo effect and filter bubbles to push those effects even further. That's why in this and similar threads I try to get people to move past just repeating slogans. [Side note -- whether intended or not, I see most of the China threads posted here as echo chambers where people are mainly just tossing out one liners to score +1 on post count]

Was it through things that seem to be more of a personal account?

I always warn students that their foreign teachers are something like a visit to the zoo - that person may well be British, Canadian, American or whatever but they were also someone willing to leave the comfort of home and go to another culture. The same applies to Chinese overseas, they are Chinese and they have their own experiences to draw on, but they are also people who have chosen (for one of a multitude of reasons) to leave home and live abroad. The catch is, that some schools create an environment that students learn to manipulate. In many classes with Chinese teachers, they learn to say what the teacher would like to hear and they approach foreign teachers no differently. I once had a student from Inner Mongolia tell me a story: "I just had class with (X). I told him that in Inner Mongolia we had to ride a horse to school, and things were so tough we had to put three children on one horse. He believed it!" No, I knew full well that she came from a wealthy family, went to private schools growing up, and enjoyed driving one of the family SUVs around the grasslands. Take things you hear with a grain of salt.

News from expats can also require a shovel or two of salt. I know one crew who have themselves set up in a walled community filled with adopted children, as many as twelve per family. They fund a very plush lifestyle by telling churches in the US how they suffer in China to spread God's word and soliciting donations. They also put the kids on the Internet and solicit sponsorships.

I'll leave it there, but perhaps I've given you some examples to start questioning your assumptions. At the end of the day, you may still reach the same conclusion -- no matter what people tell me or how they cook it I still detest Brussels sprouts -- but at least think of testing why you believe things to be a certain way. As for that shovel or two of salt, apply it to my posts too. I tell anecdotes, but those are the experiences of one guy in one setting. I try to provide links people can check for themselves.

Thank you for your detailed response. I can't address all of what you said because I have never been to China, but I can speak about China's communist party being seen as an oppressive government. I realize you're not trying to explain it all away with fake news. But I think that even when you take into account exaggeration and misunderstanding China still rates very low on political and social freedoms. Even a brief look at the reports of non-profit humanitarian organizations gives pretty damning evidence of oppression.

I think the idea that most Chinese may not feel oppressed is a function of human psychology and political structure. Most Chinese probably aren't very familiar with democracy and how it works. They are also not political activists so they have no reason fear their government. That would probably cover 99% of the people in China. This idea reminds me of this poem.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

They are also not expected to vote and be politically active in national elections. This probably leads to less of an awareness about what actually takes place on a national level and of course diminishes their influence. Also many Chinese people don't read English which limits their ability to interact globally even without the internet censorship.

Psychologically and physically they are much better off now than they were just thirty years ago. This is something that I think is important. If the people are wealthy they really don't care how their government works most of the time. And wealth is very relative to your experience. It's when they face hardships that they become politically active. I think in the future they will demand more as the the memory of past hardships fades.

People in rich democratic countries find plenty of things to protest about even though they are objectively better off than most Chinese people. For example if the government censored one of my posts on MMO-Champion I would definitely be protesting and voting everyone responsible out of office ASAP. Everyone has political power and they should learn to exercise it because it will make the world a better place. If not then we will be controlled by the interests of a few who are willing to seize all the power we give up for themselves.

I really like this video because it shows exactly why everyone must be politically active. We can't avoid it because we cannot escape structures of power. We can only ignore them at our own peril.

[shadowmouse]

I can't address all of what you said because I have never been to China, but I can speak about China's communist party being seen as an oppressive government.

You have never been to China, but rely on the Internet to form your opinion. Here's something to consider:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critic..._International
https://www.ngo-monitor.org/books/am...i_israel_bias/

Take issue with the sources if you choose, but do your own research to check. There are more questions about how some of those sources you've based your ideas on than just some random guy posting about China has raised.

Please go back, read what you wrote throughout the post, look up "cultural imperialism" and question your assumptions. I refer you back to Katie N. 's words:

How is decided in the country, not by how the western world thinks it should be ruled according to their ideas.

How would you like it if someone comes to you and says your way of life, what you think, how you act, is wrong and you should change because they think so?

I think the idea that most Chinese may not feel oppressed is a function of human psychology and political structure. Most Chinese probably aren't very familiar with democracy and how it works. They are also not political activists so they have no reason fear their government. That would probably cover 99% of the people in China.

So, "most" or perhaps even "99%" of Chinese have no reason to fear their government, but the government should be changed to fit a Western model anyway?

They are also not expected to vote and be politically active in national elections. This probably leads to less of an awareness about what actually takes place on a national level and of course diminishes their influence. Also many Chinese people don't read English which limits their ability to interact globally even without the internet censorship.

And how does that matter? Remind me where you are from. You may be European, but since I'm American I'll go with them as an example for now. Unless the US changed suddenly, there are a lot of people who barely interact with other states, and their idea of foreign matters is deciding between pizza or tacos. Perhaps if that weren't true, we wouldn't be talking about building walls across a border. As for language, many Chinese speak Chinese, just as many Americans speak American English. Americans are thus similarly limited in interacting with large portions of the world. Do you regard that as an equal problem?

Psychologically and physically they are much better off now than they were just thirty years ago. This is something that I think is important.

As far as I know, many Chinese also think it is important. This year, Xi Jinping announced a move towards socialism. How that will actually go remains to be seen, but I'd say that's perhaps a sign that government here is changing towards a model the West would be more comfortable with. Living conditions in China are improving, education is improving, travel abroad (and overseas education) is expanding. Things may not be changing fast enough to suit some critics, but I've watched the changes first hand for 18 years.

[Quote=Zmaniac17]Everyone has political power and they should learn to exercise it because it will make the world a better place.

I'm going to go full curmudgeon here. That's a very naive belief. The desire to make the world a better place, coupled with democratic process gave the US Prohibition.

[Zmaniac17]

You have never been to China, but rely on the Internet to form your opinion. Here's something to consider:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critic..._International
https://www.ngo-monitor.org/books/am...i_israel_bias/

Take issue with the sources if you choose, but do your own research to check. There are more questions about how some of those sources you've based your ideas on than just some random guy posting about China has raised.

Please go back, read what you wrote throughout the post, look up "cultural imperialism" and question your assumptions. I refer you back to Katie N. 's words:





So, "most" or perhaps even "99%" of Chinese have no reason to fear their government, but the government should be changed to fit a Western model anyway?



And how does that matter? Remind me where you are from. You may be European, but since I'm American I'll go with them as an example for now. Unless the US changed suddenly, there are a lot of people who barely interact with other states, and their idea of foreign matters is deciding between pizza or tacos. Perhaps if that weren't true, we wouldn't be talking about building walls across a border. As for language, many Chinese speak Chinese, just as many Americans speak American English. Americans are thus similarly limited in interacting with large portions of the world. Do you regard that as an equal problem?



As far as I know, many Chinese also think it is important. This year, Xi Jinping announced a move towards socialism. How that will actually go remains to be seen, but I'd say that's perhaps a sign that government here is changing towards a model the West would be more comfortable with. Living conditions in China are improving, education is improving, travel abroad (and overseas education) is expanding. Things may not be changing fast enough to suit some critics, but I've watched the changes first hand for 18 years.


I'm going to go full curmudgeon here. That's a very naive belief. The desire to make the world a better place, coupled with democratic process gave the US Prohibition.

If 99% are fine and 1% are persecuted for their political beliefs that's not a good government in my opinion. The ends do not justify the means.

The U.S. no longer has alcohol prohibition. There are many arguments against democracy but none of them are better than the arguments for it in my opinion. With a well educated population democracy works.

I don't believe in east vs west ideas. People are fundamentally the same under similar conditions.

It is my belief that Chinese citizens will demand more representation in their national government as they become more affluent and well educated. And it's not possible to ignore 1.3 billion people. If the economic success of a country depends on well educated healthy citizens, those citizens become the keys to a leaders power. China wants a high tech economy, so it will need this to happen. And that means a more representative government.

Those citizens and the businesses they create will push for change and this may take the form of a push for a more aggressive foreign policy in order to support a slowing economic growth rate. China will eventually develop it's own massive military industrial complex.

[Natta Lmo]

If 99% are fine and 1% are persecuted for their political beliefs that's not a good government in my opinion. The ends do not justify the means.

The U.S. no longer has alcohol prohibition. There are many arguments against democracy but none of them are better than the arguments for it in my opinion. With a well educated population democracy works.

I don't believe in east vs west ideas. People are fundamentally the same under similar conditions.

It is my belief that Chinese citizens will demand more representation in their national government as they become more affluent and well educated. And it's not possible to ignore 1.3 billion people. If the economic success of a country depends on well educated healthy citizens, those citizens become the keys to a leaders power. China wants a high tech economy, so it will need this to happen. And that means a more representative government.

Those citizens and the businesses they create will push for change and this may take the form of a push for a more aggressive foreign policy in order to support a slowing economic growth rate. China will eventually develop it's own massive military industrial complex.

fundamentally the same under similar conditions... wow... no, how u were raised makes the biggest difference in the world to how u react to something... people arent raised the same way in the world so similar conditions is not possible to achieve...