Kul'tiran and Zandari fleets - strongest in the world - how and why?

[Parhelion]

The largest (military) fleets of our world were built with the aim of building a global economic empire and the costs were migitaged by trade and conquest.

So by what logic, then, these isolated nations have "the largest and most powerful fleets in the world"? Makes no sense! At least 30 years passed since they were pushed into obscurity, but even if 5 years passed, majority of the ships would be abandoned, or converted into living space, considering there is literally no connection to the outside world to take advantage of.

This is different from the "total war" concept introduced in Warlords. I could see the rationale behind building an unsustainable stockpile of weapons (including ships), just as was the case during WW2, but that's an "all in, do or die" move.

By all logic, the goblin merchant navy should be the largest and best equipped naval force on the planet.

[Captain Douchebag]

The logistics of war, is not something Blizzard has ever really handled very well.

You have to keep in mind with cases like this, that in Blizzard writing, the rule of cool trumps logic almost every single time.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I think we're supposed to imagine that these fleets have been engaged in global trade all these years; we just haven't talked about them till now. Kind of like how the Broken Isles were always there; players just hadn't noticed them.

[Deleted]

The Zandalari weren't isolated, they have been engaging with the outside world since Vanilla. There's also a lot of trade going on in the Port of Zuldazar: You see hozen, ogres, Tol'vir etc.

[Corroc]

Pretty sure everyone who played since vanilla has been expecting to see the Zandalar at some point. We knew it was there all the time and just had to wait for blizzard to make it happen.

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The only thing isolated about those two nations is the fact that they are not trying to conquer new lands.

[Deleted]

would at least expect them to have more regular departures + more destinations than the ridiculously prolonged and limited ones at the old harbors . But i guess we will be using portals instead of ships to travel to various destinations. Bliz strikes again

[Deleted]

The logistics of war, is not something Blizzard has ever really handled very well.

You have to keep in mind with cases like this, that in Blizzard writing, the rule of cool trumps logic almost every single time.

And thats how it should be. Its a fantasy game. Its meant to be cool and fun more so then its meant to reflect the real world

[Zephre]

The story narrative, that's why.

[Donald Hellscream]

They weren't isolated, they clearly traded with others, just not the alliance or horde for some reason.

Also them not having fought in any major battles lately means they wouldn't have lost nearly as much of their naval forces as the alliance and horde have.

[Zeraiya]

As everyone else has said, Kul Tiras and Zandalar were never isolated from the world, they just didn't engage with the Horde and Alliance to the player's knowledge. It is still more than possible that, at least for Kul Tiras, they were actively engaging in trade with the Alliance throughout the history of WoW. Jaina being in the alliance as a Proudmoore would most likely ensure this. Kul Tiras was known as a great naval and mercentile city, so I'm sure they continued to trade with multiple races and cities. For all the players know is they could have been trading and offering aid to the Alliance the entire time, it's just not relevant to the player's experience. Why would it be important for players to know this information?

Zuldazar probably didn't engage in trade with the Horde (but still could have) but definitely could have traded with other races and factions. What about the goblins of Booty Bay and Ratchet? Seems more than possible. On top of that, they could have big army fleets to defend their merchant ships from pirates and looters. This goes for both Zandalari and Kul Tirans. Remember, Zandalar and Kul Tiras are relatively small in size and mainly populated by their own respective race. If they have a small landmass, and limited resources, it's more than likely that they would put their resources into building a naval fleet to increase their resources and power and access to even more resources.

Plus, with the potential of Old God tie-ins, what's not to say they have a military sea fleet to protect their cities and their ships from, let's say Naga and Old God sea beasties? I'm sure there is some dangerous sea nonsense around them too.

[Parhelion]

As everyone else has said, Kul Tiras and Zandalar were never isolated from the world, they just didn't engage with the Horde and Alliance to the player's knowledge. It is still more than possible that, at least for Kul Tiras, they were actively engaging in trade with the Alliance throughout the history of WoW. Jaina being in the alliance as a Proudmoore would most likely ensure this. Kul Tiras was known as a great naval and mercentile city, so I'm sure they continued to trade with multiple races and cities. For all the players know is they could have been trading and offering aid to the Alliance the entire time, it's just not relevant to the player's experience. Why would it be important for players to know this information?

How did that navy survive Deathwing's sundering? Almost none of the ports did, as depicted in Cataclysm. If there are factions other than Alliance and Horde - where are they? I mean I know there are obviously goblins, but still, not on the map.

If, as you say, they somehow magically protected their navies and continued heavy trade hidden from the rest of the world, their power would currently rival both alliance and horde, not only in navy, but diplomatically and economically as well. More to point, if they are opportunistic as you say they are, they'd probably rather conquer both Alliance and Horde and create tributary states to grow their empire(s) instead of becoming "a faction you can grind rep with".

[Zeraiya]

How did that navy survive Deathwing's sundering? Almost none of the ports did, as depicted in Cataclysm. If there are factions other than Alliance and Horde - where are they? I mean I know there are obviously goblins, but still, not on the map.

If, as you say, they somehow magically protected their navies and continued heavy trade hidden from the rest of the world, their power would currently rival both alliance and horde, not only in navy, but diplomatically and economically as well. More to point, if they are opportunistic as you say they are, they'd probably rather conquer both Alliance and Horde and create tributary states to grow their empire(s) instead of becoming "a faction you can grind rep with".

Who's to say the navy did survive, perhaps most of it was lost and they had to rebuild everything. The Horde and the Alliance rebuilt? Why not the Zandalari or the Kul Tirans. They could have rebuilt into becoming the best navies again. Especially if their focus is on maritime, unlike the Horde and the Alliance who focus on multiple fronts - magic, land, economy, politics, maritime, etc.

Also, perhaps there is more to the Warcraft universe than just what a player can see. Looking at the Warcraft world as just what you can see on the World of Warcraft map is quite nearsighted. There is a lot to the universe that has been unexplored, or is even unknown at this point. They could easily be trading with other civilizations that we have not yet discovered.

And again, what is with this word of "hidden". Who says they were hidden? For Kul Tiras, we have always known where they are. There is nothing hidden about them. Jaina hails from the country, and her entire family lives there. They are also a longstanding ally of the Alliance. Also, the Zandalari trolls are not an unknown race. They are very much recognized by Azeroth and are known to exist, including the Isle of Zandalar.

Zandalar and Kul Tiras (as far as I am aware, and correct me if I'm wrong, and then I'll retract this bit) isn't like Pandaria. It isn't a lost world that has been rediscovered. It's always been there, the Horde and Alliance just didn't care about visiting them. They only care now because they are at war with each other and they need more soldiers, allies and resources. Essentially they are trying to take advantage of every opportunity to beat the other.

Also, just because a nation is stronger than another it doesn't mean they will WANT to dominate the other. I didn't imply that they are so opportunistic that they would just immediately try and absorb another nation and continent. Just that they would be open to trade? That's not the same thing.

Even in war, the Alliance and the Horde offer a lot of trade opportunity, allies to solve their own problems (which we know they have) and they have sentimental links - the Zandalari have their trolls bretheren, and the Kul Tirans are a known ally of the Alliance already. There's no reason they would back out now. Especially with Jaina.

I don't see why they would be against joining forces with the Horde and Alliance as allies?

[Dalheim]

The Zandalari weren't isolated, they have been engaging with the outside world since Vanilla. There's also a lot of trade going on in the Port of Zuldazar: You see hozen, ogres, Tol'vir etc.

Uhm, the traders that are non-Zandalari were just now allowed in. They werent allowed on Zuldazar prior to BfA.

[Evilmoo]

Most of the fleet is probably used for food foraging (fishing) as i don't think any of the islands have sufficient agricultural or hunting grounds to successfully maintain the population.
As both nations slowly diminished fish population in nearby waters, they needed to build stronger and bigger ships to go even further into the ocean - resulting in big and strong navy, not necessary military navy.

[Eazy]

The largest (military) fleets of our world were built with the aim of building a global economic empire and the costs were migitaged by trade and conquest.

So by what logic, then, these isolated nations have "the largest and most powerful fleets in the world"? Makes no sense! At least 30 years passed since they were pushed into obscurity, but even if 5 years passed, majority of the ships would be abandoned, or converted into living space, considering there is literally no connection to the outside world to take advantage of.

This is different from the "total war" concept introduced in Warlords. I could see the rationale behind building an unsustainable stockpile of weapons (including ships), just as was the case during WW2, but that's an "all in, do or die" move.

By all logic, the goblin merchant navy should be the largest and best equipped naval force on the planet.

First of all - that's a fantasy world.
Second - I can't count how many times I've been gathering my army before striking enemies. Usually in FFA they were fighting with themselves, while I was just building up ranks, so when they were weakened I started to conquer the map. I think it's the same case here. They knew that alliance and horde are fighting, so they were buffing themselves in case if the war came at them.

[therealbowser]

It's a fantasy game world that uses different logic. Also, Azeroth is constantly at war, spending resources that the Kul Tirans and Zandalari have been hoarding over time.

That said, while the Zandalari are definitely isolationists, the Kul Tirans are not, and are famous for trading and mercantilism.

[nerv234]

Kul Tiras maintained a trading fleet and a fishing fleet. Lordaeron was not known for it's fleet but the continent is quite large and getting something from Stromgarde to Stratholme, not to mention Stormwind, would require a trading fleet.

Meanwhile Zandalar probably maintained contact with all the troll tribes throughout the ages, even after the sundering. So maintaining contact with the Amani, the Gurubashi, the Drakkari or the Sand trolls would require a fleet that can handle transoceanic travel. BUT most of the Zandalari fleet is NOT old. The Golden Fleet was created at Zul's orders to facilitate Zandalari conquest after the Cataclysm. They had the knowledge and then they invested the resources.

As you said.

And also even if those kingdoms are isolated it is not like there is peace around, there are many wars between other kingdoms and to think that they would build only economical power just to be conquered by some power hungry agressor. They are isolated by sea so they have to maintain war fleet to increase their chance of deffending against bigger numbers with weaker fleets.

Imagine Zandalari empire that is rich and have just a bunch of trading/fishing ships with no battle ships. And then diplomatic visit with horde then alliance makes landfall and conquer zuldazar getting all the goods for themselves. There is no economic power without military protection.

[Deleted]

How did that navy survive Deathwing's sundering? Almost none of the ports did, as depicted in Cataclysm. If there are factions other than Alliance and Horde - where are they? I mean I know there are obviously goblins, but still, not on the map.

If, as you say, they somehow magically protected their navies and continued heavy trade hidden from the rest of the world, their power would currently rival both alliance and horde, not only in navy, but diplomatically and economically as well. More to point, if they are opportunistic as you say they are, they'd probably rather conquer both Alliance and Horde and create tributary states to grow their empire(s) instead of becoming "a faction you can grind rep with".

Zul saw the cataclysm coming. While he took a few ships Rastakhan might have taken the warning to heart and brought the fleet on land or stationed it away from the mealstorm, epicenter of the cataclysm.

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Kul Tiras cut diplomatic ties with the Allaince. They could have still traded with goblin cartels and other groups. Also they have an ongoing pirate problem so they'd need ships to combat them

This just isn't an issue in the slightest

[Gamespud]

Kul Tiras was never an isolated state until the death of Daelin Proudmoore after the Third War. Before that they were a huge mercantile and maritime powerhouse of the human kingdoms. It makes sense for Kul Tiras to have a large fleet even if its gone unnecessary for a few years.

Zandalar is very isolationist so that is a bit harder to explain, but I'm also not entirely sure how long their fleet has been so powerful. I can't remember it ever being stated in the alpha that their fleet has been around for 10,000 years, which means it might be more recent due to Zul's machinations as Zul made a big deal of predicting Zandalar is doomed and will fall into the sea and convinced the fleet and a huge amount of zul loyalists to sail to Pandaria regardless of Rastakhan's apathy towards the Mogu. So... basically.. not sure if its actually an old fleet or if it was built up because of the cataclysm and Zul's machinations.

[Verdugo]

And thats how it should be. Its a fantasy game. Its meant to be cool and fun more so then its meant to reflect the real world

There is a point where you cant suspend the disbelief and immerse yourself any longer when nothing makes sense.