"Trials deserve loot too"

[nocturnus]

1: then its sinply misunderstanding. I was refering to this thread as a whole, not just you.

It happens, no harm no foul.

2: its exactly that. People sayong how they feel about it. What i wanna say is that if one person’a feelinga dont weight more than mine, then why am i being taken aomething away in favor of his/hers feelings?

Oh, absolutely. You and every other person that either approves or disapproves of this development have the right of voice. I just don't think Blizzard is taking anything away from you in favour of someone else's feelings. I simply think the current system is in conflict with their basic corporate vision and that they're finally acting on it.

They needn't please everyone, so they do what they think is best for the game. I just happen to agree with them.

3: idk about you but i dont trust words. Specially when body language contradicts, i trust actions. Their actions have shown time and time again they do not care about the quality of thw game, but about their raw income. So i think its safe to say, whwn they change smth big, is to make more money from the game

This "body language" nonsense has been dropped so often, it makes me think I'm conversing with Jason Bourne.

Blizzard gave one reason, whether there are more or not, is irrelevant [to me]. I summed up why I welcome this change, have you had time to read that?

Parroting without any basis for claims, not even logic.

Do you have any added value to this thread, besides regurgitating witless one-liners and accidentally manifesting your clandestine love for me? Your fatuousness is quickly becoming monotonous.

[JackWest]

Oh, absolutely. You and every other person that either approves or disaporoves this turn of events have the right of voice. I just don't think Blizzard is taking anything away from you in favour of someone else's feelings. I simply think the current system's in conflict with their basic vision and that they're acting on it.

They needn't please everyone, so they do what they think is best for the game. I just happen to agree with them.

This "body language" nonsense has been dropped so often, it makes me think I'm conversing with Jason Bourne.

Blizzard gave one reason, whether there are more or not, is irrelevant [to me]. I summed up why I welcome this change, have you had time to read them?

1: a way to ‘please’ one grp, without ‘displeasing’ the other has been suggested many times(i even wrote it in the beta's "write a suggestion" tool) , so lets not get back to ‘blizz knows best’ crap
2: you call it nonsense but if its brought as many times as you make it appear, then many dont think its nonsense. I’ve personally had several lessons about it during my ‘management’ subject in college, so maybe thats why i dont see it as nonsense. Even if we compelwly ignore that topic, i’d still trust actions more than words. So when the two contradict, i wouldnt blindly believe everything ‘officials’ tell me. You are free to think and do otherwise though.

[Darkined]

I understand removing ML from PUG content, it's just abused too often - especially since cross realm gives unscrupulous leaders near-infinite unsuspecting victims.

For top-end, full guild content it's a bad move. These guys want the freedom to reward loot to the members which provide the biggest guild-wide increase.
Whether because they are a core member like a main tank, or because they have proven they are loyal to the guild through investing heavily in early progression.

I understand it would be an issue for mixed guild/PUG groups where the PUGs could get screwed.

Maybe a better solution for mixed groups would be a hybrid opt-in system where the raid is subject to ML by default (with standard dynamic raid size loot drops) and members can opt to either be part of the ML (contributing to the number of drops, and be eligible to receive them) or use Personal Loot (where they can only trade loot with other PL users).

I want to highlight the bolded. ML in a pug is already removed. The only people who would "suffer" from ML abuse are people in badly run heroic/mythic guilds. But if you realize ML is being abused in those guilds.... why don't you just leave?

[rrayy]

Why not tell that to every "victim" of loot abusement who keeps sitting in said guild, and waits blizz to resolve their issue. I mean, that way no changes are needed. So should be the easiest solution

OR maybe if you and your buddies deidn't exploit ML to funnel gear to yourself, the change would be needed. Stop blaming others for what you and your buddies are responsible for.

- - - Updated - - -

I want to highlight the bolded. ML in a pug is already removed. The only people who would "suffer" from ML abuse are people in badly run heroic/mythic guilds. But if you realize ML is being abused in those guilds.... why don't you just leave?

I have a better idea. How about you stop the loot abusement instead of victim blaming?

[JackWest]

OR maybe if you and your buddies deidn't exploit ML to funnel gear to yourself, the change would be needed. Stop blaming others for what you and your buddies are responsible for.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a better idea. How about you stop the loot abusement instead of victim blaming?

Now, should I feel offended for that false assumption? If you cared to read the whole conversation, before you take things out of context, you'd find out that reply was simply me applying the other guy's logic against him

[Darkined]

OR maybe if you and your buddies deidn't exploit ML to funnel gear to yourself, the change would be needed. Stop blaming others for what you and your buddies are responsible for.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a better idea. How about you stop the loot abusement instead of victim blaming?

Lmao. The guild will be badly run regardless and likely not the greatest environment. Is it really victim blaming if a person willingly chooses to stay in that kind of guild and then complains about said guild? At what point do you think a person should be responsible for their own actions in a video game?

Also, the immediate "you and your buddies didn't exploit ML to funnel gear to yourself" xD. You're incredibly quick to assign blame while chastising him blaming others. Oof.

Do you have any added value to this thread, besides regurgitating witless one-liners and accidentally manifesting your clandestine love for me? Your fatuousness is quickly becoming monotonous.

Also holy shit the irony.

[rda]

I want to highlight the bolded. ML in a pug is already removed. The only people who would "suffer" from ML abuse are people in badly run heroic/mythic guilds. But if you realize ML is being abused in those guilds.... why don't you just leave?

Welcome to the thread.

Because there's nowhere to leave. It's in all guilds below mythic.

See why and more on that up the thread.

[rrayy]

Lmao. The guild will be badly run regardless and likely not the greatest environment. Is it really victim blaming if a person willingly chooses to stay in that kind of guild and then complains about said guild? At what point do you think a person should be responsible for their own actions in a video game?

Also, the immediate "you and your buddies didn't exploit ML to funnel gear to yourself" xD. You're incredibly quick to assign blame while chastising him blaming others. Oof.



Also holy shit the irony.

Yes, it is victim blaming. At what point do you think a person should be held accountable for loot abusement? It's obvious you don't because you blame the victim for the issue, not the root of the problem. To you, it's always the victims fault and never the one who is abusing the rules to begin with. And talk about calling the pot calling the kettle black in being quick to assign blame and chastising me for blaming others. Oof

[HCLM]

Welcome to the thread.

Because there's nowhere to leave. It's in all guilds below mythic.

See why and more on that up the thread.

If your guild is using ML on HC raids for more than 1-2 weeks after the release of new content, you're most likely in some casual guild so you don't even need that gear to play the game in the first place... Better gear is necessary to push higher level content and not to farm WQ faster. So why do you even care. Pugs are clearing HC in first week so why looking for a heroic guild if not only for social purpose.

What do you mean by 'there is nowhere to leave' on every server there are HUNDRETS of guilds. Just fine the one you like.

[JackWest]

Yes, it is victim blaming. At what point do you think a person should be held accountable for loot abusement? It's obvious you don't because you blame the victim for the issue, not the root of the problem. To you, it's always the victims fault and never the one who is abusing the rules to begin with. And talk about calling the pot calling the kettle black in being quick to assign blame and chastising me for blaming others. Oof

It's not victim's fault when they get abused once. It is victim's fault when they remain in guild thats abusing them. I have personally been in several of those guilds. Wanna know what I did when I realised I am being used? I left, and joined better guild. If you dont believe me some people have that mentality, to stay, just look at the threads about Warmode. People are offered power boost in exchange for not being so safe. Just count the people crying how they should have both baseline, because they are incapable of making a choice and living with it
Don't get me wrong. I despise people who hoard loot for themselves and abuse their teammates. What I am asking you is to consider that it might be more than simply "one bad guy abusing 30 others" and not run around pointing fingers

[rda]

If your guild is using ML on HC raids for more than 1-2 weeks after the release of new content, you're most likely in some casual guild so you don't even need that gear to play the game in the first place... Better gear is necessary to push higher level content and not to farm WQ faster. So why do you even care. Pugs are clearing HC in first week so why looking for a heroic guild if not only for social purpose.

What do you mean by 'there is nowhere to leave' on every server there are HUNDRETS of guilds. Just fine the one you like.

Your first para is uninformed BS and the laughable attempt at analysis with the "if ... then" is utterly incomplete.

The "hundrets" (sic) of guilds are using ML. Whoever uses PL is doing this as a temporary measure because they think they are lacking people to get "serious". The moment they feel they have enough people, they switch to ML.

All of this was in the thread already.

[Yuujin]

Blizzard has effectively introduced laws that protect interns from being exploited and raiders are losing their shit.

[Darkined]

Yes, it is victim blaming. At what point do you think a person should be held accountable for loot abusement? It's obvious you don't because you blame the victim for the issue, not the root of the problem. To you, it's always the victims fault and never the one who is abusing the rules to begin with. And talk about calling the pot calling the kettle black in being quick to assign blame and chastising me for blaming others. Oof

Sure, I can answer the question where you apparently can't. After the first time it happens and the individual sees what kind of guild they're in. They can leave; there isn't anything that keeps you tied to a guild you just joined and just started raiding with. You haven't signed some kind of commitment saying you *have* to be there or something punitive happens. But way to extrapolate that I'd always blame the victim and not the root of the problem from this singular example. Because that makes sense.

You should try reaching less and apply big glowy brain logic!

Welcome to the thread.

Because there's nowhere to leave. It's in all guilds below mythic.

See why and more on that up the thread.

All guilds below mythic. Yawn.

Blizzard has effectively introduced laws that protect interns from being exploited and raiders are losing their shit.

I'll never understand this. As a trial you are owed nothing. You understand what you're getting into when you join just about any mythic guild. You are pretty much informed off the bat of x, y, and z as rules. By joining, you've basically agreed to said rules. And again, there's nothing keeping you tied to the guild after you join if you realize you don't like x, y, and z as rules. Do you honestly expect a trial to be treated the same as a raider who has been there for many months/years?

[nocturnus]

1: a way to ‘please’ one grp, without ‘displeasing’ the other has been suggested many times(i even wrote it in the beta's "write a suggestion" tool) , so lets not get back to ‘blizz knows best’ crap

So why do you? I never suggested "Blizzard knows best". Stop pushing someone else's fallacious arguments onto me.

The suggestion only works if indeed all mythic raiders want to raid under a loot council. Unless you're referring to a suggestion that I missed.

2: you call it nonsense but if its brought as many times as you make it appear, then many dont think its nonsense.

It is nonsense because a. it's not conclusive and b. it's mostly parroting something an inept twit wrote, in an effort to disparage a perfectly valid argument he happened to disagree with. "Aha! His eye twitched when he demystified gravity's effect on time and space, it's bound to be a lie."

I’ve personally had several lessons about it during my ‘management’ subject in college, so maybe thats why i dont see it as nonsense. Even if we compelwly ignore that topic, i’d still trust actions more than words. So when the two contradict, i wouldnt blindly believe everything ‘officials’ tell me. You are free to think and do otherwise though.

Even a thrice graduated psychologist, ethologist and sociologist academicus wouldn't draw such a swift conclusion based on a single interview. It eludes me why you'd think you're qualified to do so. It's just stupid.

Also holy shit the irony.

Unlike your boyfriend and you, I'm replying with respect to the content.

You on the other hand, are as useful as brain surgery on Tsharna.

It's not victim's fault when they get abused once. It is victim's fault when they remain in guild thats abusing them.

My oh my

Does this "logic" exclusively apply to WoW?

[rda]

All guilds below mythic. Yawn.

I am not sure what it is you wanted to convey.

[HCLM]

Your first para is uninformed BS and the laughable attempt at analysis with the "if ... then" is utterly incomplete.

The "hundrets" (sic) of guilds are using ML. Whoever uses PL is doing this as a temporary measure because they think they are lacking people to get "serious". The moment they feel they have enough people, they switch to ML.

It is not analysis it is true. I am not interested in Mythic raiding this tier, and I've noticed that I only need 965ilvl to push 20+ keys which I like doing. As so I stopped care about the gear after reaching that point.

Moreover, most people who are crying that ML is bad have never seen Mythic raid on their eyes or are like 3/11. Serious guilds do not use ML for hc because they don't need gear from it after 2-3 weeks... But even if some of them are still using ML, if you want to do your HC with personal loot.LFG tool is there for you. Found a group won't take longer than 20 minutes.

I am almost sure that most the people who are crying for being abused by ML are the players who recently joined the guild, and didn't receive the item they wanted even though they didn't do anything to earn it. Remember there may be 15 or more players who were working few weeks to kill the boss, if you do not show the same level of dedication why the hell should you get anything before them... Items from high lvl contents are the rewards for what you done to earn it

[Darkined]

I am not sure what it is you wanted to convey.

I'm sure you'll figure it out.

[JackWest]

So why do you? I never suggested "Blizzard knows best". Stop pushing someone else's fallacious arguments onto me.

The suggestion only works if indeed all mythic raiders want to raid under a loot council. Unless you're referring to a suggestion that I missed.

It is nonsense because a. it's not conclusive and b. it's mostly parroting something an inept twit wrote, in an effort to disparage a perfectly valid argument he happened to disagree with. "Aha! His eye twitched when he demystified gravity's effect on time and space, it's bound to be a lie."

Even a thrice graduated psychologist, ethologist and sociologist academicus wouldn't draw such a swift conclusion based on a single interview. I eludes me why you people confidently would. It's just stupid.

And I think its stupid to blindly believe everything you are being told. Yet, many do that. And the reason I even consider the body language thing, is way more than "his eye twitched", but you've already made your mind on it

[Yuujin]

I'll never understand this. As a trial you are owed nothing. You understand what you're getting into when you join just about any mythic guild. You are pretty much informed off the bat of x, y, and z as rules. By joining, you've basically agreed to said rules. And again, there's nothing keeping you tied to the guild after you join if you realize you don't like x, y, and z as rules. Do you honestly expect a trial to be treated the same as a raider who has been there for many months/years?

Of course you don't understand it. Companies didn't understand it either when they were forced to start paying interns.

Raiders created a culture that benefited them. For 10+ years raiders have operated under this notion that they are doing trials a favor by giving them an opportunity to raid even though the trials are necessary for success. Raids used to have all the power and now they dont and it is freaking people out. Parallels the real world in some ways.

[JackWest]

I find it funny how the ones who keep bringing "trials=interns" are always the ones preaching about forcing their game style on others, aka the "forced PL supporters"