"Trials deserve loot too"

[Darkined]

and how would you call somebody who doesnt brinng in any proofs of his claim besides his own biased opinion that "ML is much better" ?

You understand that what what I view as better isn't forced on everyone regardless of whether they want it or not? That's a huge difference.

They don't raid at all.

The "ALL" that you mentioned and all other "ALLs" in my texts are "all, statistically speaking" unless I specifically clarify that there are no exceptions. It's common sense.

- - - Updated - - -



You found a guild of dropouts from another guild who did a single raid for fun.

You suggest that joining such a guild is actually a viable choice that allows people to raid? They don't raid, buddy. They just went casual, raided once, then half stopped logging.

And you're arguing that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. I'm not going to literally comb through every source just to find a PL guild. Are they as prevalent? Probably not. Are all of them run like shit? Who knows? Neither you nor I can say how the majority of guilds are run. Are some of them run like shit? Certainly. Are some of them run relatively well? Also certainly. But again, just because the potential for abuse exists in a system, doesn't mean you force the non-personal system on everyone and say deal with it.

[nocturnus]

delete please

[Darkined]

Nowhere have I claimed it "never happened or never will". "Guaranteeing" that 100% of the guild would react in a particular way is asinine. If it pleases you to discuss this further, do so via private message, since it utterly off-topic.

Again, after a guild gets a ton of garbage loot it isn't out of the ballpark to say the guild would be very annoyed. Arguing that an individual would somehow not be pissed by an entire raid of garbage is asinine.

No, you're continuously missing the point. They are not mutually exclusive, period.

Then don't act like they are. Because that's exactly how your statement was phrased.

You do not set the definition for what a mythic raider is. You can't arbtrarily add requirements based on some variables you decided were suitable. You simply do not have that authority and the fact that you seem to think you have is quite a show of incompetence.

You're a mythic raider if you raid mythic content, whether it's 1 time a week, or 7 is irrelevant since both constitute reliable recurrence.

Some such nonsense and more nonsense on top of it.

I'm not sure you know what "read between the lines" actually means. What you do know is how to dodge questions.

Assume whatever you want, mr. Teflon.

I'm not sure if it's a lack of comprehensive reading skills or if it's something you consciously and habitually do to support your narrative. I never made such claims.

Irony compounded by irony compounded by additional irony. Your lack of self-awareness is astounding.

I don't classify it as anything, that's your job, remember?

Even suggesting that someone's arguments, for or against this change, only have value if that person satisfies your criteria, is ridiculously stupid.

Maybe, we'll see what happens. What I do know is that it won't result in stagnating progression, like some doomsday-sect acolyte birdbrains here suggested.

You could just admit you don't know what the appeal to authority fallacy is.

[nocturnus]

Again, after a guild gets a ton of garbage loot it isn't out of the ballpark to say the guild would be very annoyed. Arguing that an individual would somehow not be pissed by an entire raid of garbage is asinine.

No, it's asinine to even present such a statistically absurd scenario.

Then don't act like they are. Because that's exactly how your statement was phrased.

What? okay, take this to private messages because you either don't know what 'mutually exclusive' means, or we've fallen victim to a misunderstanding.

Some such nonsense and more nonsense on top of it.

Don't be so hard on yourself. The rest of your reply is both off-topic as it is illiterate, ergo not worth a quote or direct reply.

Also, appeal to accomplishment, not authority.

Is an appeal to accomplishment really the way to go?

Calm down and reply using your wits, rather than your emotions

[Darkined]

No, it's asinine to even present such a statistically absurd scenario.

It really isn't. Again, not sure how you can't see how raiders in a guild wouldn't be miffed that they only got garbage drops the whole night.

What? okay, take this to private messages because you either don't know what 'mutually exclusive' means, or we've fallen victim to a misunderstanding.

The "ability to decide" hasn't been taken away; an option that enables a particularly squalid kind of behaviour has been eliminated.

No misunderstanding. They're not mutually exclusive. You just phrased it as such because it sounds better for your narrative.

Don't be so hard on yourself. The rest of your reply is both off-topic as it is illiterate, ergo not worth a quote or direct reply.

Because you act ignorant of common characteristics of actual mythic guilds. So you move goalposts.

Also, appeal to accomplishment, not authority.

Calm down and reply using your wits, rather than your emotions

Aww shucks. I made an oopsy woopsy in my response. Still doesn't change the fact you don't know what appeal to accomplishment is. Or that it has an exception.

[JackWest]

Nowhere have I claimed it "never happened or never will". "Guaranteeing" that 100% of the guild would react in a particular way is asinine. If it pleases you to discuss this further, do so via private message, since it utterly off-topic.


No, you're continuously missing the point. They are not mutually exclusive, period.

You do not set the definition for what a mythic raider is. You can't arbtrarily add requirements based on some variables you decided were suitable. You simply do not have that authority and the fact that you seem to think you have is quite a show of incompetence.

You're a mythic raider if you raid mythic content, whether it's 1 time a week, or 7 is irrelevant since both constitute reliable recurrence.

I'm not sure you know what "read between the lines" actually means. What you do know is how to dodge questions.

Assume whatever you want, mr. Teflon.

I'm not sure if it's a lack of comprehensive reading skills or if it's something you consciously and habitually do to support your narrative. I never made such claims.


I don't classify it as anything, that's your job, remember?

Even suggesting that someone's arguments, for or against this change, only have value if that person satisfies your criteria, is ridiculously stupid.

Maybe, we'll see what happens. What I do know is that it won't result in stagnating progression, like some doomsday-sect acolyte birdbrains here suggested.


If yours was an educated guess, present it as that and not as a "guarantee".

We cleared Antorus, have a 2 man loot council and most of the people in the raiding group don't care about this change. A handful of players are adamant about how this change is going to ruin the game, one of them is even active in this very thread.

You asked, I answered. Now we can proceed on-topic.

Ok, i agree, perhaps ‘guarantee’ was a bit too strong word. It was provoked from the ‘certainty’ in my head of happening, as it already has in the past, multiple times

Amd thanks for answering. It wasnt so hard, was it? Considering how many times people asked you this and you pretented they didnt
. This brings another question though. Who’s the ‘mysterious’ guildie?

[nocturnus]

It really isn't. Again, not sure how you can't see how raiders in a guild wouldn't be miffed that they only got garbage drops the whole night.

Read my reply again or just learn to kiss off the replies you wasted whilst continually missing the point. Proceeding like this is futile and does nothing but pollute the thread.

No misunderstanding. They're not mutually exclusive. You just phrased it as such because it sounds better for your narrative.

My narrative?

I'll try to simplify it so even you can comprehend the general directive:
Removing an option that facilitates various types of abuse, is a good thing. Limiting options to protect our liberty, is a good thing.

Because you act ignorant of common characteristics of actual mythic guilds. So you move goalposts.

So now it's common characteristics of a guild, rather than what defines a mythic raider?

Sure, I'm the one that "moves goalposts"

Aww shucks. I made an oopsy woopsy in my response. Still doesn't change the fact you don't know what appeal to accomplishment is. Or that it has an exception.

Would you like me to explain them to you?

Honestly, Darkined, I don't think we should quote eachother henceforth. It's blatantly obvious that we can't engage in objective conversation without your 'fervor' acting up. Agreed?

Ok, i agree, perhaps ‘guarantee’ was a bit too strong word. It was provoked from the ‘certainty’ in my head of happening, as it already has in the past, multiple times

Amd thanks for answering. It wasnt so hard, was it? Considering how many times people asked you this and you pretented they didnt
. This brings another question though. Who’s the ‘mysterious’ guildie?

Jack, you mostly seem pretty objective, though you get carried away by others' zeal for the cause, now and then.

Now tell me, honestly, other than polluting the thread with useless information about my persona, what added value does the knowledge provided have for the topic at hand?

It's an appeal to accomplishment and nothing more; my opinions, arguments and rationale would've been just as valid with 4 mythic bosses killed. It's a widely held axiom that you do not challange a hypothesis merely because you assume some variable makes you superior.

[JackWest]

Read my reply again or just learn to kiss off the replies you wasted whilst continually missing the point. Proceeding like this is futile and does nothing but pollute the thread.

My narrative?

I'll try to simplify it so even you can comprehend the general directive:
Removing an option that facilitates various types of abuse, is a good thing. Limiting options to protect our liberty, is a good thing.

So now it's common characteristics of a guild, rather than what defines a mythic raider?

Sure, I'm the one that "moves goalposts"

Would you like me to explain them to you?

Honestly, Darkined, I don't think we should quote eachother henceforth. It's blatantly obvious that we can't engage in objective conversation without your 'fervor' acting up. Agreed?

Jack, you mostly seem pretty objective, though you get carried away by others' zeal for the cause, now and then.

Now tell me, honestly, other than polluting the thread with useless information about my persona, what added value does the knowledge provided have for the topic at hand?

It's an appeal to accomplishment and nothing more; my opinions, arguments and rationale would've been just as valid with 4 mythic bosses killed. It's a widely held axiom that you do not challange a hypothesis merely because you assume some variable makes you superior.

Thread is more polluted than China before they introduced the catalyst converter in vehicles. Also, quite off topic, as originally it was about trials
The reason i am for providing such information, is because it makes it easier to see where someone comes from(what type of guild for example) and on what they base their opinion amd believes

[Xarathan]

My narrative?

I'll try to simplify it so even you can comprehend the general directive:
Removing an option that facilitates various types of abuse, is a good thing. Limiting options to protect our liberty, is a good thing.

I fail to see how liberty is protected when no choices remain but to be forced into slavery to the dice.

[Echocho]

God forbid we have any control at all over what loot we go after and get, slap on another layer of RNG that'll help! Gear progression felt really unrewarding in Legion due to the sheer amount of drops and the RNG titanforging system. I'm just not going to bother playing BfA at all if this goes through, might as well wait for classic instead. It's a worse game overall but at least the gearing and character progression part is deterministic, fun and rewarding.

[Darkined]

My narrative?

I'll try to simplify it so even you can comprehend the general directive:
Removing an option that facilitates various types of abuse, is a good thing. Limiting options to protect our liberty, is a good thing.

Your claim A: the ability to decide hasn't been taken away. Yes, actually it has been.
Your claim B: an option that enables a particularly squalid kind of behavior has been eliminated. Not disputing this because its true.
A is not immediately invalidated by B yet you're phrasing it like it is because it sounds good for your narrative.

Its fine. Your intellectual dishonesty has already been established time and time again.

So now it's common characteristics of a guild, rather than what defines a mythic raider?

Sure, I'm the one that "moves goalposts"

As if the two aren't intrinsically linked and the characteristics of the one wouldn't reflect in the other. And yes, you are the one that moves goalposts.

Would you like me to explain them to you?

Honestly, Darkined, I don't think we should quote eachother henceforth. It's blatantly obvious that we can't engage in objective conversation without your 'fervor' acting up. Agreed?

Please do explain. Will proving that you have experience in an area you claim to have experience increase the value of your arguments and rationale? Explain how that is somehow a fallacy.

Also for someone who screams fallacy at every opportunity whether one is truly present or not in an attempt to discredit your opponent's argument, you yourself apparently cannot have a impersonal or respectful tone to lend any semblance of credibility to yours. You're incredibly abrasive for the sake of it. My 'fervor'?

The point is that an argument’s value should be determined by its content and not by the accomplishments of whoever puts it forward.

Slavery? Die?

Mock the syntax and ignore the point. Classic.

[nocturnus]

Thread is more polluted than China before they introduced the catalyst converter in vehicles. Also, quite off topic, as originally it was about trials
The reason i am for providing such information, is because it makes it easier to see where someone comes from(what type of guild for example) and on what they base their opinion amd believes

The point is that an argument’s value should be determined by its content and not by the accomplishments of whoever puts it forward.

I fail to see how liberty is protected when no choices remain but to be forced into slavery to the dice.

Slavery? Dice?

[JackWest]

The point is that an argument’s value should be determined by its content and not by the accomplishments of whoever puts it forward.

I am not focusing at accomplishments here. I am using them as tool to determine the background of the person speaking. Example: earlier in this thread, Kamiumac(if thats how his name was spelled) claimed that guilds(including mythic) which use ML, are using it in order to abuse their members, and feed gear to themselves. I asked him about his experience, so I can see where that statement comes from. In my eyes, if he's only raided normal and hc, or even not raided at all in the last years, his statement holds no value, as he has not experienced how things are done, so his opinion about it is based mostly on expectations and believes. I mean, if he has cleared antorus on HC and speaks about hc guilds, I am fine with that. However, if he has never done mythic, and speaks how mythic guilds are ran, i cannot take those statements seriously. And yes, I do apply the same thinking outside of the game. Which is why when I feel pain somewhere, I will visit the doctor and listen to what he says, and not my grandma, who's seen all seasons of ЕR(tv series). I mean, she'd have an opinion as well, but I am going to listen to the actually experienced person instead

[nocturnus]

I am not focusing at accomplishments here. I am using them as tool to determine the background of the person speaking. Example: earlier in this thread, Kamiumac(if thats how his name was spelled) claimed that guilds(including mythic) which use ML, are using it in order to abuse their members, and feed gear to themselves.

Of course, that's a blatant blanket statement.

I asked him about his experience, so I can see where that statement comes from. In my eyes, if he's only raided normal and hc, or even not raided at all in the last years, his statement holds no value, as he has not experienced how things are done, so his opinion about it is based mostly on expectations and believes.

His [blanket] statement wouldn't have held any value if he solo cleared mythic Antorus within 24 hours of its release. Don't you see how his achievements and his opinion are completely unrelated? A valuable opinion is supported by objectively formulated arguments and logically sound acumen.

The common, nescient misconception that you need to be an active mythic raider to entertain an opinion on this particular change, is beyond idiotic and should be eradicated.

[JackWest]

A valuable opinion is supported by objectively formulated arguments and logically sound acumen.

What about when one "opinion" is based on real life data and the other on expectations? Dont you think that often expectations about something, are very different than how it actually goes? An example: before I step into mythic, I joined a guild that was advertised as HC guild that aims to clear SOME mythic bosses. That sounded as fair start. So, my expectations were, that we'd start with heroic, clear it in two-three weeks tops, then move to mythic and kill at least first boss when we get to it. However, what actually happened, is that said guild could NOT clear NORMAL for a month. The players couldnt handle simple mechanic, like "get X debuff, get out of the grp, let it expire, get back in". If my opinion was based on something stronger than expectations, I wouldnt think for a second they will even see the first boss on mythic, so I wouldnt waste my time with them. Can you see how the two opinions: one based on expectations and the other on experience with them, differ? I am fine with opinions. I just value them differently, based on what information they are formed.

His [blanket] statement wouldn't have held any value if he solo cleared mythic Antorus within 24 hours of its release. Don't you see how his achievements and his opinion are completely unrelated?

Lets not start with the ridiculosity. Nobody would've solo cleared anything. Now, however, if he did clear some bosses, then he'd actually seen the "abuse" he speaks of in mythic. That I am willing to accept. I just doubt he has, and in fact makes his "opinion" based on expectations and not something remotely close to what actually happens. Which is why I asked him about it. Conviniently, it was ignored

The common, nescient misconception that you need to be an active mythic raider to entertain an opinion on this particular change, is beyond idiotic and should be eradicated.

It's not based specifically on mythic achievements. It's based on having actual experience with the topic person is talking of, and mythic happens to be that topic in this specific moment. I have no issue with people saying "forced PL is good for HC", while they raid HC. My issue is when someone says "forced PL is good for mythic", while they havent stepped in mythic. Remember I have no issue with PL in lower difficulties. I wanna keep ML in mythic only

[Deleted]

It's not based specifically on mythic achievements. It's based on having actual experience with the topic person is talking of, and mythic happens to be that topic in this specific moment

Questioning authority is a trait I very much cherish even in my own kids even when it sometimes pisses me off to the extreme (when they question mine of course).
Authority Ion said *** so must be legit.
Authority Exorsus GM said a so b must be true.
Authority m+ healer king said x so y must be true.

Question authority. Question motives. Question data. If you find no flaw - accept it. If you do find any though - look for possible other explanations because someone was not open and/or honest with you for a reason. Sometimes the reasons will be funny, sometimes stupid, sometimes plain evil but at least you can judge yourself and not accept any bullshit you are fed. The general "you". Not writing personal here.

[JackWest]

Questioning authority is a trait I very much cherish even in my own kids even when it sometimes pisses me off to the extreme (when they question mine of course).
Authority Ion said *** so must be legit.
Authority Exorsus GM said a so b must be true.
Authority m+ healer king said x so y must be true.

Question authority. Question motives. Question data. If you find no flaw - accept it. If you do find any though - look for possible other explanations because someone was not open and/or honest with you for a reason. Sometimes the reasons will be funny, sometimes stupid, sometimes plain evil but at least you can judge yourself and not accept any bullshit you are fed. The general "you". Not writing personal here.

I get it man. And yeah, I think questioning things, rather than believing everything blindly is a very good thing. Sadly, most people I encounter are like sheep.

[nocturnus]

What about when one "opinion" is based on real life data and the other on expectations? Dont you think that often expectations about something, are very different than how it actually goes? An example: before I step into mythic, I joined a guild that was advertised as HC guild that aims to clear SOME mythic bosses. That sounded as fair start. So, my expectations were, that we'd start with heroic, clear it in two-three weeks tops, then move to mythic and kill at least first boss when we get to it. However, what actually happened, is that said guild could NOT clear NORMAL for a month. The players couldnt handle simple mechanic, like "get X debuff, get out of the grp, let it expire, get back in". If my opinion was based on something stronger than expectations, I wouldnt think for a second they will even see the first boss on mythic, so I wouldnt waste my time with them. Can you see how the two opinions: one based on expectations and the other on experience with them, differ? I am fine with opinions. I just value them differently, based on what information they are formed.

If what you're trying to convey is that having hands-on experience helps forming a sound opinion, I agree. Nevertheless*

Lets not start with the ridiculosity. Nobody would've solo cleared anything. Now, however, if he did clear some bosses, then he'd actually seen the "abuse" he speaks of in mythic. That I am willing to accept. I just doubt he has, and in fact makes his "opinion" based on expectations and not something remotely close to what actually happens. Which is why I asked him about it. Conviniently, it was ignored

Woosh, over your head; ridicule was the whole point.

What I'm trying to explain is that a poorly elucidated, unsoundly formed opinion is worthless regardless of your experience, proficiency or compentence.

It's not based specifically on mythic achievements. It's based on having actual experience with the topic person is talking of, and mythic happens to be that topic in this specific moment. I have no issue with people saying "forced PL is good for HC", while they raid HC. My issue is when someone says "forced PL is good for mythic", while they havent stepped in mythic. Remember I have no issue with PL in lower difficulties. I wanna keep ML in mythic only

*You do not need to have had any "mythic experience" to draw attention to both advantages and disadvantages of ML.

[JackWest]

*You do not need to have had any "mythic experience" to draw attention to both advantages and disadvantages of ML.

My point was "you do need to have some "mythic experience" to accurately tell what loot option is better in mythic specifically

Whatever though. You are free to take everyones' opinion the same. I am gonna keep "evaluating" first before I decide whose opinion to go with, on whatever it is. What I am simply asking is to not be taken negatively for asking people what exactly they base their opinions on. Perhaps a better approach would help as well

[nocturnus]

My point was "you do need to have some "mythic experience" to accurately tell what loot option is better in mythic specifically

We've been through this already; no one can say which loot distribution system is "better", because 'good' and 'bad' are subjective. All we can do is evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of both structures which allows us to form an assessment based on criteria, precedent and principles which in turn are all subjective.