"Trials deserve loot too"

[Deleted]

we all know in serious guilds all the personal loot will have to be handed over to the master looter for traditional distribution.

Not anymore, did you read any wow news website lately ?

Ya'll take this shit WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY too seriously.

Ah, i was waiting for that "argument", paint me convinced by such rhetoric !

The trial loot thing is a distraction. Unless you spend a huge amount of time guild hopping, the vast majority of your time in a guild will be spent as a member. Changing the loot system might have been done with this in mind, but if it was the primary factor it's very short sighted. It's far more likely that it was done to remove control from guilds to attempt to slow down super organised guilds, especially from doing things like loot funneling for class stacking.

Let's continue with that in mind, if the vast majority is a group working to accomplish something, why does it bother you to give X items to the players in the group that would make the group benefit the most ? Draught of Souls is a good example of that, it's good on a retpal but borderline broken on a warrior, what's wrong with what ? do you want to lose more time on X boss because it enrage and you're 3% close everytime it do so ?

[Gradywhite]

and maybe if you feel spicy enough stop shitalking us on mmo champion and craft your own fucking perfect guild where no one will ever be sad, where the water is always fresh and tasty.

My friends and I did exactly that. We've had a single instance of drama in the last 4 years and it was not regarding loot (one of our trials was pissed that he wasn't being brought in for our mythic Gul'dan kill when the person he was replacing for 1-2 nights came back, as expected). We've been raiding in mythic two nights per week using master looter & loot council for the entire time, with no loot issues whatsoever.

If they still want to restrict the use of master loot, I hope they can at least just restrict it to mythic-only.

[Kataroku]

Bring in new trial --> don't give them loot for 4 weeks --> bench them because they're at the bottom of the meters --> bring in a new set of trials --> "core" group goes on vacation for 6 months because they cleared the raid and got fully geared by funneling loot away from trials.

Got to love taking advantage of trials for those extra loot rolls. If they leave after 4 weeks of not getting any loot then they simply weren't committed enough!

[klogaroth]

Let's continue with that in mind, if the vast majority is a group working to accomplish something, why does it bother you to give X items to the players in the group that would make the group benefit the most ? Draught of Souls is a good example of that, it's good on a retpal but borderline broken on a warrior, what's wrong with what ? do you want to lose more time on X boss because it enrage and you're 3% close everytime it do so ?

With a trial you don't know how much it'll benefit the group, because you don't know if they're going to pass trial. If it looks like you're going to accept them you can absolutely give them loot, but in that situation it is your choice. Like I said though, many people opposed to this aren't opposing it because they hate trials and inherently want to deny them loot. It's not because they want to piss off someone they're hoping will in the future become a member of their guild. It's possible for a trial to fail or leave, but it's also possible for one of your members to leave. There's always a chance that you can gear someone and they leave, trial or not.

What you can't do with the new system is choose to gear someone intentionally unless you're deep enough into the tier that when something drops you're able to trade it. This especially hurts with rerolls and returning players during progress. Even if the player you want to intentionally gear is a trial, because you're pretty sure they'll become a member. You still can't funnel gear to them until everyone else is geared enough to trade loot. That's what the change is for, to make the loot distribution less optimal, especially in early progression. Using your example, reverse the loot drop. Now you have a trial warrior who would benefit greatly from DoS, and a member paladin who might have it drop and be untradeable. You might want to give it to the warrior, but you can't. You lose that choice.

[Gradywhite]

That's no problem, I say good riddance. Sick and tired of the game being clogged up by dime a dozen shit tier guilds with bad leadership, this will clear the way for better guilds with better people to take their place.

This definitely does not promote better leadership. Quite the opposite. A good loot system should promote a sense of trust and community, as you use loot as a tool to progress your raid and trust that you, too, will receive your piece of the pie in due time.


The real issue is members not holding corrupt guild leadership accountable for their loot practices. If somebody in a loot council is legitimately funneling gear to their friends rather than to the best players/classes for the benefit of the entire raid, they deserve to be called out. If the behavior doesn't change, then the people under this abusive leadership should leave for a better guild or start their own.

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Got to love taking advantage of trials for those extra loot rolls. If they leave after 4 weeks of not getting any loot then they simply weren't committed enough!

True, because mythic raiding (which is the format this change negatively impacts most) is not about getting gear, it's about killing bosses as a guild. If you can't put in your dues to be at the cutting edge of the raiding scene, then you are not committed enough. Your guild should be about progressing and overcoming challenges as a group, not about your personal quest to obtain loot. If that's not how you see it, you're going to have a tough time getting into a great guild.

[Kataroku]

True, because mythic raiding is not about getting gear, it's about killing bosses as a guild.

Hence why ML is going away.

[Deleted]

Not anymore, did you read any wow news website lately ?

if its in any wow news, i guess i must be blind. please be so kind to provide me with a link to the news that personal loot is no longer tradeable in bfa.

[Time Sage]

The entitlement is strong with this one.

If that "Trial" joins the group and contributes, they deserve a shot at loot. Period. I don't give a damn how many of your "High Quality Always There" mains are in the guild-run. The idea that everyone else should give up the chance at improving their characters until 3-4 weeks or months or whatever point it is that you deign to say they're worthy of gaining some kind of loot is fucking ludicrous.

That kind of bullshit thinking is what destroys progression guilds because people cycle in and out of the game was they burn out and you -need- "Trials" to join in and complete content. But if those "Trials" know they're going to have any loot they could use be handed off to someone you like better (Who may even have better gear than they do) they're not going to join up and help you take down that next boss.

That kind of entitled thinking is what kills the raiding scene, making it less and less open and more and more elitist is not the way to get the raiding population (And thus the subscriber base) to grow.

Your signiture is a perfect TL;DR for your post. You summed up basically everything I was going to say as well.

[mauserr]

The reason why guilds don't give loot to trials is not because they don't deserve it, but because they are worried that they'll get loot, leave and join another guild.

It happened once with a trial in our guild, our tank had irl problems so we recruited one that seemed very nice, and geared him so our guild wouldn't have a setback, once he was geared, he said I just wanted to get geared and left our guild to join his old guild again. So we basically boosted him for free.

And the fact that you simply can't know how the trial will fit into the guild and whether or not their performance will be good enough.

It's the same like getting a job, they rarely give you a 1 year contract from the start, you have to trial and prove your worth.

You don't work for free during a trial period at work, though, so there's that, I guess

[Gradywhite]

Hence why ML is going away.

Let me re-phrase then. Mythic raiding is not about personally receiving gear. Individuals don't kill bosses. Guilds kill bosses, and guilds get gear. The ML system just allows the guild to distribute that gear efficiently in order to progress. When we say that "Loot doesn't matter to mythic raiders", we are saying that it's not a big factor in the reward structure for top-end raiding. Overcoming a difficult challenge as a group is the reward. One tool we use to overcome that challenge is to distribute loot in the interest of the guild.

I guess now progression will just be harder and more prestigious when we kill the boss. /s

[Leodric]

Your signiture is a perfect TL;DR for your post. You summed up basically everything I was going to say as well.

Person A = Puts work into his character. Analyses logs to master his class and provide top notch performance. Loyal and disciplined to progress with his guild for years.
Person B = In the guild for one week. Is a Trial which the guild takes to see if he/she fits in their guild. Get's BIS Trinket because of Blizzard welfare lootsystem, would otherwise complain about a 'corrupt' loot council not giving it to him/her.

Obviously person A is the entitled and privileged one

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You don't work for free during a trial period at work, though, so there's that, I guess

Loot is not the only thing you gain as a raider by the way. Showing kill experience + bonus rolls which can still provide you loot + getting loot which other raiders don't need is a huge plus.

[RobertoCarlos]

Loot is not the only thing you gain as a raider by the way. Showing kill experience + bonus rolls which can still provide you loot + getting loot which other raiders don't need is a huge plus.

Lets not forget about unlocking the mythic cache for your weekly quest either. A lot of these trials would struggle getting enough mythic kills without the mythic guild giving them a trial

[Leodric]

Let me re-phrase then. Mythic raiding is not about personally receiving gear. Individuals don't kill bosses. Guilds kill bosses, and guilds get gear. The ML system just allows the guild to distribute that gear efficiently in order to progress. When we say that "Loot doesn't matter to mythic raiders", we are saying that it's not a big factor in the reward structure for top-end raiding. Overcoming a difficult challenge as a group is the reward. One tool we use to overcome that challenge is to distribute loot in the interest of the guild.

I guess now progression will just be harder and more prestigious when we kill the boss. /s

exactly that, very well explained.

[mauserr]

Person A = Puts work into his character. Analyses logs to master his class and provide top notch performance. Loyal and disciplined to progress with his guild for years.
Person B = In the guild for one week. Is a Trial which the guild takes to see if he/she fits in their guild. Get's BIS Trinket because of Blizzard welfare lootsystem, would otherwise complain about a 'corrupt' loot council not giving it to him/her.

Obviously person A is the entitled and privileged one

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Loot is not the only thing you gain as a raider by the way. Showing kill experience + bonus rolls which can still provide you loot + getting loot which other raiders don't need is a huge plus.

Except that bonus rolls are not guaranteed, loot that other raiders don't need is still not a given, so the only thing you get is "showing kill experience" (the fuck?). Not even close to a job trial comparison. Try again next time after the cooldown for bullshit has expired, ma dude.

[Steampunkette]

Person A = Puts work into his character. Analyses logs to master his class and provide top notch performance. Loyal and disciplined to progress with his guild for years.
Person B = In the guild for one week. Is a Trial which the guild takes to see if he/she fits in their guild. Get's BIS Trinket because of Blizzard welfare lootsystem, would otherwise complain about a 'corrupt' loot council not giving it to him/her.

Obviously person A is the entitled and privileged one

Nah. Clearly in that example, it's a matter of random chance as to who gets what. Let's try a second example:

Person A = Puts work into her character. Analyses logs to master her class and provide top notch performance. Loyal and disciplined to progress with her guild for years.

Person B = Puts work into her character. Analyses logs to master her class and provide top notch performance. Recently changed guilds because of some reason (Old guild collapsed, infighting, whatever). Joins a new guild and helps them down a boss.

For simplicity's sake, let's say Person B is slightly less geared than Person A, because she had to leave her guild and couldn't raid for a few weeks before getting into the new guild.

The guild master decides to give an upgrade that would improve Person B's performance more than Person A's performance because they've known Person A longer and "Can't be sure" that Person B will remain with the guild.

Now who is entitled?

Even if the gear is similar, choosing the person who has "Been there Longer" is still a matter of favoritism. The in-group and the out-group.

Seriously, your example, Leoderic, frames the person who has been in the guild in the best possible light and treats the Trial member like a Rando PuG who just -stumbled- into the guild by accident. The hell, dude?

Random Rolls are, by far, more -fair-.

[Leodric]

Except that bonus rolls are not guaranteed, loot that other raiders don't need is still not a given, so the only thing you get is "showing kill experience" (the fuck?). Not even close to a job trial comparison.

Normal loot is also not a given? items can drop which are not even in your loot table. You perfectly explained why your argument was weak to begin with.

Try again next time after the cooldown for bullshit has expired, ma dude.

Referring to personal attacks is surely making you bring your point further in a discussion. I feel how it's changing my opinion on this whole matter, wow, so enlightened.

[psyquest]

Personally I will take trials on bosses. You wipe stupidly, you dont do your job (dps/ heal or tank), I ll do the boss without the trial. No need like before to take the same guy on a different boss.

note: currently my guild has a one raid trial period. Once that is done, we invite you to guild and you are a member. There are no difference in loot distribution between old players in the guild and new ones, we give loot to whatever benefit the group best.

I think some of you got a bad experience with some guilds, not all guilds are the same.

[Leodric]

Nah. Clearly in that example, it's a matter of random chance as to who gets what. Let's try a second example:

Person A = Puts work into her character. Analyses logs to master her class and provide top notch performance. Loyal and disciplined to progress with her guild for years.

Person B = Puts work into her character. Analyses logs to master her class and provide top notch performance. Recently changed guilds because of some reason (Old guild collapsed, infighting, whatever). Joins a new guild and helps them down a boss.

For simplicity's sake, let's say Person B is slightly less geared than Person A, because she had to leave her guild and couldn't raid for a few weeks before getting into the new guild.

The guild master decides to give an upgrade that would improve Person B's performance more than Person A's performance because they've known Person A longer and "Can't be sure" that Person B will remain with the guild.

Now who is entitled?

Seriously, your example, Leoderic, frames the person who has been in the guild in the best possible light and treats the Trial member like a Rando PuG who just -stumbled- into the guild by accident. The hell, dude?

The whole point of a trial phase is that you don't know if person B is actually as good as you stated her to be. That's why it does not work. Only because person B might have good logs or good experience is not a guarantee that she is actually fitting for the guild. Your person B would totally understand the approach of her new guild regarding not giving loot to new trials if she has been in a successfull guild before.

Also, my example is still something which can occur, that's why taking the chance away for a guild to hinder such scenarios is wrong.

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note: currently my guild has a one raid trial period. Once that is done, we invite you to guild and you are a member. There are no difference in loot distribution between old players in the guild and new ones, we give loot to whatever benefit the group best.

Exactly this. Being a trial is just a phase which can be a short or longer phase depending on the guild. I seriously think people arguing that a trial should get loot think being a trial is a constant title in a guild. In my experience it was 2 to 3 raidIDs at most and after that you were a normal member in the guild and had the right for loot as anyone else.

[DRAKE996]

I see both pros and cons to removing master loot.
In some guilds trial is only for 2 weeks, i've personally been in some myself. Where they don't get loot and while i find it annoying and irritating i understand why it is like that because the others in the raid have been in the group for a longer time than me and have shown thier mettle to do thier role very effectively.
Also at the same time if I'm going to be in this guild then i will have less competition for the loot i gave up during my trial since some people already got it.

But there are guilds out there that keep people on trial for more than 2 weeks, and that's where this new system will really help.
Also there are some guilds out there that keep you as part of the reserve roster who will never be given the chance to get a permanent spot but just a "incase" player that if someone from the core team is unable to make it for a run you get swapped in. Which is fine because you would be told about such things when you join the guild BUT those reserve roster people will not see any loot unless no one in the core team needs it. And in the case of a mythic raid that's essentially saying you get loot if the other 19 people don't need it.
So there is no reward for the person subbing in. And NO getting the boss kills and achievement isn't reward enough.

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And one more thing is, this does not only apply to trials this effects members as well.
If you just joined a guild, went through trial and became a permanent member, you are still new compared to the rest of the people.
So the chances of a system like loot council giving the loot to a newbie compared to someone they have been raiding with for some time, friends/family/bf/gf with is very small.
Thus removing Master Loot completely removes any kind of bias. Everyone is biased. It's human nature.

At this point my only suggestion is a better screening process for admittance to your guild.
Not just raid experience and ilvl but also ask few questions to see the personality of the person you're bringing in to see if it's a good fit to your guild.

[Leodric]

But there are guilds out there that keep people on trial for more than 2 weeks, and that's where this new system will really help.
Also there are some guilds out there that keep you as part of the reserve roster who will never be given the chance to get a permanent spot but just a "incase" player that if someone from the core team is unable to make it for a run you get swapped in. Which is fine because you would be told about such things when you join the guild BUT those reserve roster people will not see any loot unless no one in the core team needs it. And in the case of a mythic raid that's essentially saying you get loot if the other 19 people don't need it.
So there is no reward for the person subbing in.

Do you really think you will be happy in a guild which was for a loot council and which was for using ML after they get forced to play with PL?
You always have the chance to leave such guild. Why would you stay in a guild which just keeps you as a reserve spot? PL won't change that at all. I can already see some guilds expecting trials to have a really high item level just so it's possible for the trial being able to swap loot if necessary.

A toxic guild won't get nice and friendly merely because they use PL.

And NO getting the boss kills and achievement isn't reward enough.

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion and your own motivation. But every good player I know has this as his/her motivation and sees loot a means to an end.