It isn't?
Do enlighten me.
You know what's actually asinine? Implying that loot isn't used to coerce raid members.
No, of course not. But they can 'punish' you by excluding you from the list of potential recipients if you're late, missed a raid, failed a soak, talked back, etc. etc. while using you anyway in the raid.
Last edited by nocturnus; 2018-06-07 at 02:27 PM.
Which is obviously a GOOD thing. Of course you want to penalize someone for fucking up. It has been mentioned before that by doing the stuff you described (missed a raid WITHOUT NOTIFYING IN ADVANCE, failed a boss mechanic, talked back to someone above you in the hierarchy during raid-time ((discussion is done AFTER the raid is over, not DURING. DURING the raid everyone's job is to PERFORM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY, nothing more, nothing less)) ) you are basicly wasting everybody else's time, not just your own. The same way you were sent to detention for not doing your homework in middle-school, the same way you get benched or penalized in any other way when you fuck up during a raid.
God forbid we try to encourage good attendance and performance in a group activity. Would you rather we just immediately kick anyone who screws up a couple of times, ensuring they will never ever get loot, instead of telling them what they are doing wrong and giving them a chance to fix it before being kicked?
Last edited by rebecca191; 2018-06-07 at 04:25 PM.
You're entitled to an opinion, but it's just that; an opinion.
My opinion? Well, if a member doesn't abide by the guild's rules, he's should be talked to, benched or removed, not used as a drudge to fill up your roster. Not unlike firing an employee, rather than denying stipend. Can't remove the member because you need him, regardless of his incompetence? Can't fire an employee because you need the work done, regardless of his paltry performance?
Pay up.
As for your "detention at school" comparison: I don't know how well you're educated, especially when it comes to teaching and SWPBS (school wide positive behaviour support), but there have been several researches done and papers written (puplished by influential European and American educational institutes) that substantiate the futility of detention and similar punishments.
While very interesting, this is a different subject for another thread.
Last edited by nocturnus; 2018-06-07 at 07:46 PM.
At some point you have to question the business acumen of the game director when they are continually pissing off large subsets of their players with their decisions and telling those players to take a hike, when:
1) other solutions which address their problems which solve their stated problems exist
2) those other solutions would have minimal negative or even net positive effect on the happiness of the people affected.
I mean, even you guys with your world rotates around you attitudes can see that customer dissatisfaction and less people playing are a bad thing, right? The effect on queue sizes and the frequency of patches will almost certainly be negative even if you don't care about Blizzard's profits.
I don't even understand what's going on in this thread anymore.
Regarding my earlier post in regards to nobody presenting any hard data in regards to ML and PL, I forgot to mention the second thing I've been saying in this thread. That being that Azerite gear will likely be the easiest gear to distribute with PL because it is not bound to a class and never warforges/titanforges. Once someone obtains their piece, every piece they get after that would be tradeable to everyone of the same armor type. Yeah, some people might be dicks and want to keep it for alt-specs, but in general in regards to guilds, it should be quite easy to get everyone Azerite gear.
@Tsharna
Math is math. You said it yourself that guilds chose it based on speculation. If there are no numbers to support it, you have no idea how advantageous it actually is. That said, my point has nothing to do with my experience, just the honest truth that if nobody has data they are just speculating.If you "seriously wonder", you have no serious knowledge and/or experience in progress. PL is for you.
I have no doubts that it is more advantageous to run ML pre-BFA due to tier pieces being locked to a class in PL. But due to BfA removing tier, there is bit of a shift that most people aren't considering.
@Darkined
Then clearly there would be enough data points to find the average drop per player for PL compared against the amount of loot that ML provides. From that you can then get at least some very generalized statistics regarding gearing up a guild with PL versus ML. Again, even this old data would be good to have, cause right now people are pulling numbers from what they feel is right.PL has been around since at least the beginning of WoD, roughly 4 years ago. Why has no guild used it in a progression setting vs. ML? Including in raids where tier wasn't available yet.
What data are you asking for exactly?
@Nutrition
People say that PL gives more, but I have yet to see numbers on PL drop chance and the like. Is this even true? I mean, it certainly feels like it is (and probably is) but how much does PL give in comparison to ML though?As for math behind it... well personal gives more loot but it isn't the quantity per run people are worried about.
Yeah, Azerite gear != tier, and thusly it lowers the advantage of ML a bit. How much though... *shrug*. You definitely get my point though.Again the removal of tier solves most of the drawbacks of personal... most not all but the lionshare.
@rda
No need to quote, you seem to get what I'm saying. I'm personally not saying that PL is in any way better than ML, just pointing out that nobody knows how good ML actually is in comparison.
But yeah, there is no point in any side to really be bickering unless we know just what we are actually losing in BfA. I don't suspect the loss of ML will affect things that drastically due to the switch from tier to azerite gear. Yes, gearing for an individual character might be a bit whacky in terms of more specific items like trinkets; however, the RNG would average out over the whole raid. Not to mention that getting your BiS items might not be as important as the shear amount of upgrades that PL would provide assuming that it's drop rate is significantly higher.
As I mentioned before, you just prove to have no idea about mythic guilds and cutting edge guilds especially. Top guilds in particular breed the most accurate and specialized number-crunchers you can ever get for WoW without access to Blizzard meta data. What they deliver is VERY far from napkin math. Even at my guild's level we have plenty people who are able to crunch class/item/boss/etc. numbers incredibly well. That is too VERY far from napkin math. You have no idea though, which proves again - this change is not for you, nor is it about you.
You're generalizing. You're pretending that non-mythic players don't pug. Or that the only people to apply for a mythic raid will be those who already cleared it.
According to wowprogress 1096 of guilds have cleared 11/11M, which is 2.6% of the guilds they track. I myself I'm not 11/11M, only 9/11. So I probably can't even get invited into the elite groups that according to you are "common".
Last edited by Khallid; 2018-06-07 at 06:36 PM.
I get that it's sad to see the old style go, but I think it was always doomed the moment they tried to make an MMO that is extremely popular. The two things can't thrive together, and in any time in WoW's life when they did thrive together, it was on the back of a fuckton of people playing a tiny bit and then quitting, which is mostly what lead us to the mess we're in now: Blizzard trying to get as many people to play a game, regardless of them wanting to play it. (Trust me! I'm probably the ones who shouldn't be bothering with a traditional MMORPG!)
I think the only way the traditional MMORPG can remain healthy is if it makes peace with the fact that it's ideal sub size is going to have to be around 500,000, which is still enough to make a lot of money.
When you chase millions, you get into having to try and please everyone, and often wind up pleasing no one. (Or just addicts)
This assumes the only gear you get/use will be from raids which is even less likely in this expansion than in WoD. This isn't about the number of drops/the quantity of the loot. It really isn't hard to grasp that. It's been said again and again. Why do people need to keep repeating themselves?
PL gives more averaged throughout the raid. On a boss by boss basis it may give more it may give less. It may, however unlikely, give you nothing. Welcome to RNG raiding, it feels so great.
Its obnoxious to state why ML is better than PL many, many times in the thread only for someone to then say "nobody knows how good ML actually is in comparison" for some reason. Again, why do many people say the exact same thing about why ML is better from a progression standpoint only for others to go "well why is it actually better?"
So I am the raid leader with 24 man team, say 20 core and 4 trials. We are going to re-kill Kingaroth. I need to decide who to take on the kill.
I have 2 core team 100% attendance RDPS that never got the trinket. I want them to get the trinket, it's a nice DPS boost we will need on Coven.
With ML I can take whomever I want on the kill.
With PL I will not take 945 trinketed trials because they wont be able to trade the trink to the main guys. I might take a trial who has a 960 trinket only on understanding that he will trade the potential drop to me. Otherwise I'd rather use a full core who both have the ilvl to trade the PL and the willingness to do it.
All blizz did with this chance is added more drama to the loot. As a consequence, to reduce this drama, I will feel forced to take less trials for important bosses. I will have to have the talk of the 'you will trade loot X to me if it drops' variety at least once for every trial. Moreover I will feel forced to take more trials for unimportant bosses that drop bad trinkets/bad weapons they can use -- just so they would 'unlock' an ability to trade a slot. As if being RL was not a big enough headache.
----
inb4 people who never raided Mythic tell me 'oooh you dont have to do this all unless you are in top 5 world guilds blah blah blah'
my dear scrubs, first, thank you for buying the carries, come again. second, even if my raid is not in top 5 world, I still do what I can to maximize the progression. Just as we use flasks, runes, food & pots, we will have to maximize the effect from geardrops -- which means having the bis pieces distributed to the bis players.
- - - Updated - - -
Oh, I forgot the worst part: if I don't come up with the loot redistribution policy, the raiders being the social animals they are will create a patchwork ad-hoc one. Buddies will trade with each other, people who dont like each other will not and it will create even more stupid drama. So I will have to say something to the effect of 'if you can trade it to the master looter, trade it to the master looter' and then track this bullshit.
You must have data handy to confidently claim "I think wrong" and that it's "Not even close".
Obviously, you don't. You just don't agree with me, which is fine, but are too inarticulate to express yourself objectively. If you genuinely think ML isn't used as a tool to control and coerce, you're either wide-eyed innocent, witless or a beautifully heartrending coalescence of both.
I've already explained how I handle members that do not abide by the rules and why, I think you need to brush up your comprehensive reading skills.
You could of course also say: "Hey, grats on the loot! Do with it whatever you want, since it's your property to begin with"
Last edited by nocturnus; 2018-06-07 at 09:30 PM.
That was interesting.
At the first glance we have another power-hungry control freak with god complex.
Nothing new, good old "I will treat trials even worth then before" and "all your loot belong to me",
But then he drops this wonderful twist:
He is terrified - raiders will interact with each other. Like...in social way. Raiders have social preferences. Raiders will have a choice to do what they want with the loot.
What a terrible thing to happen in MMO... worst part indeed.
He is going to stop that madness. He "have to".
How can somebody don't love this thread?
Its a pity that we play with people like this. They want to raid in good guild and do it without responsibilities. They want to kill bosses without obeying RL commands. They want guild without social drama while encouraging social drama on every corner. Word "hypocrisy" is not enough to describe them.
Every succesful raiding guild has visible hierarchy. People are working together under guidance of capable leader. Minimizing conflict situations is one of main jobs of said leader. Maybe if you raided with people more than 2 weeks you could understand how fair loot distribution negates guild conflicts and why it is important to be done from above. But in your perfect world everyone will lick your ass and you will own all loot that drops in raid. That is not how raiding works. If item that drops in your bags is better for someone else than it is for you and raid gains more if you trade it to them - you will trade it. In this situation team wins. If you leave that item for yourself your raiding team gets less.
And those small gains are ones that will determine kill on bosses. You are raiding with people, every character is a living person. Everyone of them wants to achieve something and your wishes dont go before theirs. The only goal in raid that everyone agrees to is raid progression. Any actions that will help achieve this goal will be done.
If you dont understand this statement - organized raiding is not for you. Try something else, dont force yourself. You are not suitable candidate for this environment.
Last edited by justonetime; 2018-06-08 at 12:00 AM.