Should Blizzard cater to community perception, even if it is wrong?

[Manabomb]

They are actively trying trying to kill high end organized raiding. They are making design decisions that make it harder for guilds to optimize at the high end, make it easier for players to jump in and out of the game on a month to month basis without consequence and it allows them to put less resources into properly balancing raids. This decision is just another decision based purely on money.

There's a really good reason for this.

FFXIV has been able to keep up with Warcraft despite over 85% of savage raid clears being pugged. Blizzard envies that, they look at how little SE caters to whiny raiders and want to cash in on the casual crowd, as they always have.

Combine that with the token and you've got yourself a game that makes its own money by just players playing it. Plus, destroying organized raiding will make it easier to put WoW into maintenance mode.

[Lilija]

These people have no idea how wrong they are, so they will continue to rail against master loot and other game mechanics that have next to no real impact on them, while removing them seriously messes with the ecosystem in the groups that use its advantages to their favor.

Do you have an idea how wrong you are? The whole problem is no one knows when they are wrong. I know it would make things easier if we did but that's just not the case.

Top end guilds will adapt. It's just kind of a slap in the face to mess with the systems that help top end guilds do what they do, to fix a problem that is almost non-existent.

I think that top end guilds will not only adapt but in the few years hardly anyone will remember this whole drama

Though, as Preach pointed out in his video on the topic, most players likely exist in the pug and/or shit guild world. They're mostly all terrible players who think that loot is everything, and don't understand what it means to put the progression of the group over the progression of the individual. They don't understand the social aspect of a proper guild, because they've never been in one, and many of them may have even been kicked after trialing and performing poorly or having an incongruent personality.

And I think people like Preach highly overestimate the gain from the ML over PL to the speed of progression of majority of Mythic guilds (not the top ones but all the others). Maybe top 200-300 will feel the difference but as you've said they will adapt because there is something else that drives them. For everyone else this change will simply make some things easier. And who knows what changes to the PL itself we will see on the way when it'll be the only loot system and Blizzard will have put a lot of attention to it working properly.

It makes perfect sense why they would want master loot gone, but, as you said, they're also objectively wrong, because they are inexperienced with the subject and their opinion can't mean anything in that context.

What about those who are experience and still don't see this huge loss of scrapping ML?

[Deleted]

The folks who are not in a good guild? Maybe? Blizz also benefits because they will no longer get tickets or whatever from people complaining that they did not get the loot they think they deserved.

So I guess there are guilds who are doing raids with like 90% guild members and fill the rest up with non-guild members, who are then at the mercy of the master looter, who might favour people from his guild. I can understand why these people want the system gone.

[Lilija]

This is why they gotta stop doing these Q&A's. We get these kinds of passive-aggressive threads for a month afterwards.

It's not because of Q&A. It happens after each bigger change. Thanks to Q&A we at least have the Blizzard's opinion in the open.

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Then who benefits from this change?

I would guess that it benefits the majority of Mythic guilds that aren't in the very top where simply the boost from ML over PL is close to non-existent when it comes to speed of progression. Tho some people will want to believe it's all about gear optimization before admitting that maybe they're simply not that good. Yet they will copy the ways of top guilds because that must work better for them as well.

I also wonder if it maybe smoothens a bit the playing field between people who have tons of free time and those who don't. That's just pure curiosity of mine not something I personally need

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I cut this down to "I can only speak for myself." I, or you, or anyone else can't possibly speak for a significant segment of the community, let alone any kind of majority or plurality. I, you, or anyone else simply don't have the data to say that. Only Blizzard actually has the data to tell about many things.

And even tho Blizzard has so many data making them closer to the reality they cannot know certain things before they go live and live for certain portion of time

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Plus, destroying organized raiding will make it easier to put WoW into maintenance mode.

How? I am truly curious.

[HuxNeva]

So I guess there are guilds who are doing raids with like 90% guild members and fill the rest up with non-guild members, who are then at the mercy of the master looter, who might favour people from his guild. I can understand why these people want the system gone.

That would be our guild some nights. We have lots of people with unpredictable or shift work. But those nights when there are pugs, we always switched to PL anyways out of respect for the pugs.

[Pull My Finger]

And now the question arises: what is that people need and who knows that?

The developer in most cases at least has the better educated guess. Players are generally very oblivious to what they actually want. It makes sense too, as they rarely see the big picture.

[Nerovar]

But forum feedback lacks the proper overview. It's just a bunch of anecdotal evidence.

As for the quality of surveys. I tend to work for few years in the market surveying business and those done by Blizzard were pretty in depth.


2 times got them via mail from Blizzard. One was about WoW and the other about all Blizzard games. Those things are pretty random and most people don't get them but you don't have to ask many people to get the overview you need.

Forum posts (even in form of anecdotes) can convey meaning in a way that raw data from surveys can't. Furthermore forum posts have the possibility to actually provide different approaches and are much more constructive in general.

Also I don't think there's much value in a survey if most people don't even know that it exists. Sample size matters.

[Lilija]

I don't disagree. They have the data, but it it's not always clear to even them what is the right course. They have to do what they think is right, and sometimes they miss. Can you imagine the game we'd end up with if MMO-Champion's WoW forum made all the choices? Ugh.

I know I would not be playing that one Cannot speak for anyone else.

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The developer in most cases at least has the better educated guess. Players are generally very oblivious to what they actually want. It makes sense too, as they rarely see the big picture.

I would say players never do because they don't have any means to be able to. Yet it's funny when people act like know better than devs themselves And how they overestimate popularity of their own perspective.

[glorygores]

Another person with a completely worthless response. Congrats on showing that since you can't even come up with a single rebuttal you simply go with the LOL UR DUMB argument.

what rebuttal should i make to something that is so far gone and self-contrived? That the loot system does not hinder high end raiding from happening. It only hinders the speed in which the race is completed. As much as I fucking hate losing Master loot because, as someone who likes to make his own guild/run his own raid, losing the ability to award loot to players who are actually competent and consistently show is more important then the notion that jimmy deserves his loot for just existing; it slows down split raiding and will hopefully atleast make the mythic race fucking not a 1 week stretch to the finish.

[Lilija]

Forum posts (even in form of anecdotes) can convey meaning in a way that raw data from surveys can't. Furthermore forum posts have the possibility to actually provide different approaches and are much more constructive in general.

The problem with forum posts is that proper feedback is often drown in the see of bullshit. Do you really think anyone is able to go thru all this babble with proper attitude of taking in feedback? Forums are simply too noisy. I would say that Blizzard more often goes to reddit due to upvote system making it all at least a bit clearer and the garbage usually goes down pretty quickly.

Also I don't think there's much value in a survey if most people don't even know that it exists. Sample size matters.

You know millions of players play WoW and Blizzard games? The chances of one person being selected for a survey are slim. How often are you selected for public opinion or market surveys? Dunno if my participation in many betas had any influence on me being selected twice but I would rather assume I was lucky. I don't know personally any other person who took that survey from Blizzard. As I don't know anyone who took part in the same public survey I did in any other matter.

[Nezzynot]

Eventually we'll just get used to the Warlock getting the max titanforged trinket that's horrible for him and amazing for you and that he can't trade you even though he wants to be a good guy! :'D

This change is totally healthy for the game, because Bonus rolls aren't enough, you need to get double dicked on the one boss you need every week for the whole tier. Because that is exactly what's going to happen to at least some of us.

This change is ridiculous.

[Lilija]

Eventually we'll just get used to the Warlock getting the max titanforged trinket that's horrible for him and amazing for you and that he can't trade you even though he wants to be a good guy! :'D

This change is totally healthy for the game, because Bonus rolls aren't enough, you need to get double dicked on the one boss you need every week for the whole tier. Because that is exactly what's going to happen to at least some of us.

This change is ridiculous.

Like ML is never dicking us. And I don't even mean the master looter but the RNG of giving your group drop that no one needs while half of a raid is waiting for that one trinket from this boss. Both systems suffer from RNG.

[ThunSaren]

Yes I'm aware that Heroic and even normal guilds exist, but no they're not serious, they don't take progression seriously, or else they wouldn't be normal/heroic guilds. Why would they EVER use master loot?

That's an interesting view, why do you think some group doing HC/N wouldn't want to use ML? Same resoning as M guilds - they want some degree of control over their loot, even if they don't commit as hard to raiding as others, it's nice to have some choice and say on how you handle loot as a group. Theres many groups not wanting to cope with the harder mechanics and time investment, while mythic can be fun and all, but sitting through 100+ wipes is often un-fun, moreso if you spent a good while on heroic for the same boss. Or let's say i have a group of ~ 12 other firends i've played the game for a long time, but we dont want to go through the tedious process of finding the remaining players for a mythic run, as it can be very dishearting seeing players not fit in, leave for better guilds as it often happens. I can't see why a group of likeminded individuals, even if they won't commit to fully maximising their play, or to make the best out of their raidtimes wouldn't want to run master loot, which gives them freedom to assign piecies as seen fit by designed individuals or group as whole. To me it feels like your post imlpies that if the HC/N raiders don't want to maximise their play for raids to play mythic they shoudn't try to optimize anything (loot included) which is weird to me. By the same logic i could say any person progressing mythic shouldn't bother cause they aren't serious in actively competing for rank1 world kills, which is the ultimate pinnacle for raiding, is it not. Sorry if i got your implication wrong, but removing masterloot removes freedom of choice and possibilities for any group that chose to use it, be it top mythic guild or a small sunday normal run, to handle lot as they wish. There was a reson they chose to use it, and having freedom over your loot is by no means connected to progression or the degree of commitment to the game, this change removes choice for various groups not only mythic guilds.

[Lochton]

I don't see the problem. You can still do Loot Council with Personal Loot if you are dedicated to the raiding group and not just 'me me me'.

[ramayana1423]

Like ML is never dicking us. And I don't even mean the master looter but the RNG of giving your group drop that no one needs while half of a raid is waiting for that one trinket from this boss. Both systems suffer from RNG.

You do realize that the situation of the trinket everyone wants not dropping can happen with both systems, while the system involving a character getting a bad trinket max TF is exclusively a PL problem, right? Right?

[yjmark]

but removing masterloot removes freedom of choice and possibilities for any group that chose to use it, be it top mythic guild or a small sunday normal run, to handle lot as they wish. There was a reson they chose to use it, and having freedom over your loot is by no means connected to progression or the degree of commitment to the game, this change removes choice for various groups not only mythic guilds.

I think this is an important distinction. Any organized group should be allowed to choose how they want to distribute loot. BUT - a simple adjustment to PL which would allow folks to trade regardless of ilvl would also pretty much resolve this.

[Suilea]

Blizzard should do whatever they want because it's their game. The community will continue playing anyway.

[Nathreim]

Then who benefits from this change?

No one. Sometimes blizz does things that no one asked for. Like the new UI no one wanted a new one and this new one is terribly designed.

[Ange]

I raid since vanilla and got my experience with many DKP variants and lootcouncils. Council metrics are allways changing (prio to broken classes, to most time spend, to DPS, to HEAL, to TANK, to RL friends...) and it is destructive to any normal guild, because it causes additional drama for no reason at all.

I still preffer FreeForAll /rolls or just Personal Loot. A lot less loot drama and luck/badluck is allways the same with loot, nothing changes.

What the WorldTop5 guilds with burnout players think about the best loot distribution shouldn't be that important for a casual game like WoW.

[Darknessvamp]

Irregardless of whether the community perception is wrong or not, what I want to know is why Master Loot isn't being left as a choice. I mean if you feel a guild or raiding team is going to screw you over by not using Personal Loot then why don't you simply not raid with them? If a guild agrees to use Master Loot because that is what they're comfortable with and find most effective for their team and you are entering that group as a new person doesn't it make sense to adapt or if you're really put out of turn by it leave and look for another guild who fits your looting requirements? Why should the majority there be forced to by Blizzard to concede to your system simply because you don't like it? Why doesn't this "majority" of people "screwed" by master loot band together and form their own Personal Loot Guild/Weekly Raiding Team so they're with people with similar intentions in mind?

Other than further limiting the loot acquisition rate of both raids and dungeons and fucking over people who try to solo them because Personal Loot is shit like that and considers you as a group even if you're not in instances that force it, the only effect this is having on the current raid system is the removal of choice. It's essentially fuck everyone getting to choose because we say so.