ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[ramayana1423]

Except for the fact that his opinion is eloquently formulated, while yours has the scientific value of a queef.

You sound like a reasonable human being.

[Seranthor]

He actually said he pushes heroic and that's it. And yes, if you do nothing but do heroic, your opinion on the merits of ML vs PL are worthless.

One could also say that if you aren't a developer with the actual data they possess then your opinions are as equally worthless.

[lummiuster]

All I'm getting from this is that your a selfish person.

If you were actually good at the game you would realise that the gear should go to who it benefits the raid the most.

Making the raid as a whole better, means you can kill more bosses, which means more loot, which mean the tier is finishes faster.

Obviously you don't have an issue with gear being the limiting factor for a kill since you're still 10/11M so it's mostly a learn to play issue at this point if you can't kill a boss.

You have a BiS list for every tier. I don't see how the removal of Master Loot will make that a non issue. In fact it will make it a bigger issue since you'll be getting items you do not want which could have been giving to someone else and guess what you just used up your loot luck by looting that item you didn't want/need.

Man, we are sick of your damn ideology. We aint selfish, we want to play a game and have new things. I bet you think we are selfish and you are an officer with 3 toons dps/heal/tank with full mythic set while some raiders in your group dont even have a full t21 set.
Put aside the "selfish or not", the problem with ML is that the optimized loot distribution is not enjoyable for the players. We feel beyond stupid to spend real life time to play a game that makes us feel disappointed. You have to understand that.

But anyway, this whole argument only make sense when we have the choice between ML and PL (we'd agree that ML is better for progression). But since we have forced PL, it fixes all the problem. No more problem. So why are you complaining? Everyone is happy and your guild won't be at a disadvantage because all the guilds will be using PL.

[burek]

Because sharding loot that you never wanted in the first place but was forced to take up space in your bags because of PL is somehow better.

I can't give reasons why its better other than the overused "ML is bad and guilds that use ML to focus on guild progression are toxic" bs, its just better.

Are you asking why is PL better?

Because it makes the game simpler. Because it removes all the artificial crap that isn't even a part of the game, like deciding who gets the loot, loot councils, dkp or other systems, and so on. It removes the need for mandatory addons like rclootcouncil and shit, that you need just to be able to join the raid.

What is the point of keeping ML for optimizing raid progression? There isn't one. It is just min/maxing for the sake of min/maxing. That you are getting an edge over anything with optimal loot distribution is just an illusion. Your competition is doing the same thing, you aren't getting any edge over them. You aren't getting any edge over the encounters either, because the designers expect you to distribute loot optimally. This just makes ML optimization a mandatory thing, that serves no actual purpose. You have to use a loot council and waste time and nerves on distributing loot. You have to use a dkp or some other crap. You have to use that mandatory loot addon. But why? For no purpose except that everyone is doing it, so you have to do it too to not fall behind. And they are not even the part of the game itself. Removing them all won't do jack shit to the game nor your progression, it will just make the game better.

[lummiuster]

Why are these problems?

Because this is not enjoyable to most people. And there is no reason to play a game if we dont have fun.
Yo, your ideology of optimising guild progression to the extreme is toxic to the game. We are sick of your thoughts and blizzard do not want them either. This kind of extremism where "you only want a troll shaman because their racial is better" and toxic thoughts like this to be guild first, we do not want it.

[Jester Joe]

Actually it shows something. If someone reacts the way you said you know that person doesn't have any real arguments except for "I am better than you therefor my opinion is more important".

It's basically happening either way, whether the armory is linked or not.

To me, it feels far more like people are just trying to echo what they think the opinions of the top raiding guilds are, so they can seem like they're part of it. Hence, removing ML must be bad, because top guilds use it!

[rrayy]

Good for you, so you like Personal. FORCING your shit on everyone (and removing player/guild choice) is fucked up. You gain nothing from it but people against PL lose everything to it.

Everyone who is for PL, you do realize there are plenty of guilds that run PL, right? Join those. Don't fuck over the rest of the raiding community because you were "screwed over that one time in Karazhan".

So, you forcing your loot rule is OK, but having a rule forced on you is not? I am guessing oyu are one who exploits others to give yourself and your buddies more chances at loot with ML.

[nocturnus]

It's basically happening either way, whether the armory is linked or not.

To me, it feels far more like people are just trying to echo what they think the opinions of the top raiding guilds are, so they can seem like they're part of it. Hence, removing ML must be bad, because top guilds use it!

Exactly this. It’s elitism from a safe distance at its finest.

[Lilija]

It's basically happening either way, whether the armory is linked or not.

To me, it feels far more like people are just trying to echo what they think the opinions of the top raiding guilds are, so they can seem like they're part of it. Hence, removing ML must be bad, because top guilds use it!

That is my observation about each and every thing about raiding.

It's like crying that world first kills didn't have spec x. And while balancing is certain issue the reality is the moment most people get to that boss it will not matter as much to have the most optimal spec combo but how well you and your guildies can press the buttons. The solutions that are "a must" for top guilds are mostly invalid for everyone else. And well, ti should be looked at on case by case basis. There are things we can learn from top players but we should know which of those things don't really apply to us.

[nocturnus]

Are you asking why is PL better?

Because it makes the game simpler. Because it removes all the artificial crap that isn't even a part of the game, like deciding who gets the loot, loot councils, dkp or other systems, and so on. It removes the need for mandatory addons like rclootcouncil and shit, that you need just to be able to join the raid.

What is the point of keeping ML for optimizing raid progression? There isn't one. It is just min/maxing for the sake of min/maxing. That you are getting an edge over anything with optimal loot distribution is just an illusion. Your competition is doing the same thing, you aren't getting any edge over them. You aren't getting any edge over the encounters either, because the designers expect you to distribute loot optimally. This just makes ML optimization a mandatory thing, that serves no actual purpose. You have to use a loot council and waste time and nerves on distributing loot. You have to use a dkp or some other crap. You have to use that mandatory loot addon. But why? For no purpose except that everyone is doing it, so you have to do it too to not fall behind. And they are not even the part of the game itself. Removing them all won't do jack shit to the game nor your progression, it will just make the game better.

You know what’s ironic? That your reply will be ignored by most LC supporters but whenever someone applauds the PL change they ask them to “give one good reason to not use ML”.

These people are blind to anything but their own opinion, which is why the stagnate in their development. As I said, pathetic.

[Lilija]

You know what’s ironic? That your reply will be ignored by most LC supporters but whenever someone applauds the PL change they ask them to “give one good reason to not use ML”.

These people are blind to anything but their own opinion, which is why the stagnate in their development. As I said, pathetic.

To be fair all people need to wary of that because the flaw of human nature is to favor opinions that align with your own. Tho being aware of it can help to at least have a civil discussion What is sad is that people see that flaw in everyone but themselves. And all of us suffer from it to some degree.

- - - Updated - - -

Since there was a lot of discussion about loot systems and freedom of choice
Maybe a bit off-topic but I'd like people who are interested in the mechanisms of freedom of choice (in regard of free will) could listen a psychologists describing a bit of mechanisms of the issue and how limitation can actually increase choices rather than decrease it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GcU9LjuVOo&t=142s
(it ends around 15:57 but if you are into psychology I encourage you to keep listening )

[Nihilan]

Imagine spending 25 pages arguing over something so completely trivial as to who gets what pixels in a video game.

[kamuimac]

You're probably right, but with the amount of guilds who hate this change, chances are they will try a method like this and see how it goes.

doubtfull - number of people who complained about HC 10 mans being removed were much larger yet they went through and never reverted changes .

same will be with ML - some will whine for next 3 months and then in half of year people will forget ML was ever used in game

[Low Hanging Fruit]

doubtfull - number of people who complained about HC 10 mans being removed were much larger yet they went through and never reverted changes .

same will be with ML - some will whine for next 3 months and then in half of year people will forget ML was ever used in game

Exactly. Once he pulled the "design philosophy " it means they are doing it. Then the run down about making changes that aren't popular routine. Means he doesn't or rather isn't going to explain much further. As soon as the superior personal loot came into the game it was always going to happen. Once mythic was entered into the game in SoO with flex it concluded the death of 10 man HC raiding. For "design philosophy". Everyone that didn't get shit on with that choice thought it was great. Then joined in on shitting on a far larger number of people on a far bigger change that actually by design destroyed guilds mechanically. Forced new social structures. This is only a menu system option. Not as important.

ML being removed isn't shit. At least its being replaced by a superior system based on fairness. Removing corruption. Just listening to people flip out over an option in a drop down is pretty hilarious. People that weren't about loot at all until the funnel gets taken away then its suddenly what will / has killed the game. Delirious individuals indeed.

[Daffan]

Exactly. Once he pulled the "design philosophy " it means they are doing it. Then the run down about making changes that aren't popular routine. Means he doesn't or rather isn't going to explain much further. As soon as the superior personal loot came into the game it was always going to happen. Once mythic was entered into the game in SoO with flex it concluded the death of 10 man HC raiding. For "design philosophy". Everyone that didn't get shit on with that choice thought it was great. Then joined in on shitting on a far larger number of people on a far bigger change that actually by design destroyed guilds mechanically. Forced new social structures. This is only a menu system option. Not as important.

ML being removed isn't shit. At least its being replaced by a superior system based on fairness. Removing corruption. Just listening to people flip out over an option in a drop down is pretty hilarious. People that weren't about loot at all until the funnel gets taken away then its suddenly what will / has killed the game. Delirious individuals indeed.

They don't care about loot in the context of gloating like LFR heroes.

They care about loot because it helps their primary goal, faster and more efficient progression.

Geeze don't you learn anything after 1k spam posts on the topic?

[Kaykay]

You have either had really poor luck in the guilds you have joined or you are completely ignorant as to how loot is handled in a good guild. I am the GM/RL of Imba on Lightnings Blade we are usually US 50-100 and our philosophy on loot is very simple. The biggest upgrade gets it like 99% of the time because we want to be as effective as we can with each any every piece to benefit our group as a whole instead of any one individual. I have raided the full gambit of levels in this game and of course there are some bad guilds run by bad people that is just life, however, the vast majority of compitent guilds that I have played with have given out loot for the benefit of the group over the the benefit of anyone 1 person. The higher up in raiding you go the more this becomes important to maximize certain classes who are grossly OP for specific tier set and trinkets etc.

People who raid at lower levels tend to miss the fact that many(not all) mythic raiders view loot as a tool not a reward and we use that for our persuit of progression. I have very rarely had memories of a tier piece I recieved in tier x or y. However I will always remember how Mythic KJ felt after 400+ pulls and a crazy instance. I personally am all for player choice myself. I just think that guilds should have the latitude to disperse loot the way that they have agreed upon and see fit. Ultimately everyone in any guild chooses to be there knowing full well what the looting rules are.

I will address this issue which has me confused if people are really considering the ramifications of this PL choice from blizzard. So currently people have been bringing up the point that trials were not getting any loot when they joined a guild. While if you just look at this at its base arguement that it solves that issue you are missing the even greater issue that is going to spring up in its place which is much much worse. I am speaking from a GM point of view. I just wont be bringing trials in very much at all anymore. Think about this....I have 20 potential loot spots for a group of people doing progressoin. I want to make sure that my best 20 are in for the last couple of tough fights which are usually the most demanding. Previously as long as I had a few of them in for each kill I could filter loot into those players which would give me the freedom to bring in maybe not my A team players and some trials to let them see content maybe earn a fulltime progression spot. Now with this new system I can almost never afford to make that choice because every spot is a potential loot spot. Why would I ever bring in a guy on my B team or a trial and give up the chance to have one of my 20 best in on that kill to get a chance at loot? Also those 20 best are going to have the highest IL and be able to trade loot around the best. Bringing in undergeared underexperienced people is going to be more of a detriment than it has ever been and it is going to shrink rosters and make apping to guilds much tougher.

Why would I bring in Caster App "a" when he has cruddy gear and cant trade the bis trinket to one of my core guys that actually needs it? What this is going to do is really force us into situations where like on say Kingaroth. I am going to have every single person who is able to roll an Acrid and has a high enough IL to trade it in for a fight.

If this game has taught us anything it is that no matter what Blizzard decides it will lead to really toxic player behavior to take it to one extreme or another. So in the case of PL you will have Mythic groups of all leather/cloth to get 20 rolls at the caster trinkets complete with bear tanks druid/monk/priest healers all rolling as caster dps to get 20 trinket chances to get mass quantities of trinkets for raiders by trading. When doing farm for mythic progression you are just not going to be able to bring in anyone but your best and brightest who have multiple alts who can facilitate item trading.

I could be wrong(wouldnt be the first time) but I honestly believe that this will lead to much more toxic player behavior than guild master looter ever did. It will also encourage even more crazy alt/split shenanigans but I digress.

"biggest upgrade" is not always a clear cut definition, you'll have a loot council oblivious to the value of the elisande trinket for example, passing it to a hunter over a fury warrior, because the fury warrior has a higher ilvl trinket than the hunter.

Do you go for bis? who decides what is bis? is it pure ilvl? and if so what about stat weights? You cant expect casual players to know every gimmick of every spec in the game to make quick and fair decisions on the go. Good luck trying to educate bad loot councils on how classes work.

That's why i'm all for PL becoming the mainstay, you get more loot with personal loot, straight up, if you really care about gearing up your raid, that should count for something. The only loss is guilds ability to play favorites when loot drops. And abuse stacking broken set bonuses the first week or two of a new raid.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

They don't care about loot in the context of gloating like LFR heroes.

They care about loot because it helps their primary goal, faster and more efficient progression.

Geeze don't you learn anything after 1k spam posts on the topic?

Fortanitly how they feel isn't the center of the design philosophy which is what counts. Blizzard is removing this for the right reasons. ML being removed is a far superior system in my opinion. Goals can change. Efficiency is often to high and sometimes Blizzard will remove things to slow it. I am not sure why they are doing it or if that is why. Likely they just have a superior product with PL combined with it removing corruption. It only hurts people with the loot funnel crutch. Or abusers. The game is better with PL in my opinion.

[Saverem]

If someone is doing that bad, they shouldn't be in the raid.

That isn't an issue with the loot system, that's an issue with your raid that's going to be there regardless.

It's weird that you keep avoiding the biggest argument which is lack of player choice. I don't want to play in a MMO that's on tight rails. I want to make my own decisions whether they are good or not. I want FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOM!

And I'm telling you this right now, mark my words, HERE ME NOW AND LISTEN TO ME LATER! This Personal loot system will cause more drama than the Master Loot in mid-end guilds. These guilds will still ask the players with loot to give theirs up to another player and it WILL create awkward situations. I guarantee it. Yes, I know if it's the highest ilvl, they can't trade it, but wait long enough and they will be. There will be people just not looting anything so the raid doesn't find out and then getting that loot later in the mailbox (I've done this several times because I wanted the loot for transmog while doing alt runs with my guild).

They will find out and see there are loot missing and this will cause issues. This is just one of many problems this will cause. People wanting to keep loot because they run M+ in their alt spec and guilds saying NO WE ONLY DECIDE ON LOOT THROUGH RAID PROGRESS! etc. Lots of drama and lots of gquits going to happen.

I know my guilds already discussing this, on who's gonna pass to who, etc.

This loot system won't fix the problems and I foresee it being reverted.

[Enkrypt]

It's weird that you keep avoiding the biggest argument which is lack of player choice. I don't want to play in a MMO that's on tight rails. I want to make my own decisions whether they are good or not. I want FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOM!

And I'm telling you this right now, mark my words, HERE ME NOW AND LISTEN TO ME LATER! This Personal loot system will cause more drama than the Master Loot in mid-end guilds. These guilds will still ask the players with loot to give theirs up to another player and it WILL create awkward situations. I guarantee it. Yes, I know if it's the highest ilvl, they can't trade it, but wait long enough and they will be. There will be people just not looting anything so the raid doesn't find out and then getting that loot later in the mailbox (I've done this several times because I wanted the loot for transmog while doing alt runs with my guild).

They will find out and see there are loot missing and this will cause issues. This is just one of many problems this will cause. People wanting to keep loot because they run M+ in their alt spec and guilds saying NO WE ONLY DECIDE ON LOOT THROUGH RAID PROGRESS! etc. Lots of drama and lots of gquits going to happen.

I know my guilds already discussing this, on who's gonna pass to who, etc.

This loot system won't fix the problems and I foresee it being reverted.

Your guild sounds like garbage if they're already discussing who has to pass their loot to others. I mean seriously, wtf.

And I think you're wrong by a large margin. You can "guarantee" all you want, but as I say in most matters of this kind, where MILLIONS of people and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of guilds are involved and affected, you can't predict jack squat. You can pretend to, but in the end, you're only speaking from your personal experience. Remember that.

"Lots of drama and lots of gquits" already happen with ML. I've seen it happen with trials, and I've seen it happen with top parsing healers who felt they deserved something more despite it being a smaller upgrade.

I'll make a guarantee to counter your own. I guarantee Blizzard will NEVER, EVER implement a system that pleases everyone and solves all loot woes. The best they can do is attempt to make it fair and unbiased. And even though I'm a moderately progressed Mythic raider, I look forward to this change. There have been plenty of times where I'd rather blame plain old RNG for not getting an upgrade versus blaming friends of mine that were appointed to be on the Loot Council.

When was the last time you get pissed off at Blizzard for awarding one of your mates Aman'thul's Vision? Enlighten me.

[Saverem]

Your guild sounds like garbage if they're already discussing who has to pass their loot to others. I mean seriously, wtf.

Welcome to mid-high end raiding guild m8. We do it for the progression. They decide on loot in the way the benefits the entire guild, not just one person. Giving the BIS piece of gear to Larry McLagtits who pulls 400k less DPS and can only make 2/3 of raids will not help the guild to progress very efficiently.

Also, I'm going to save this post so I can come back and rub it in your face when they change it.