Why blizzard didn't put in end of expansion zone wide nerfs in Antorus ?

[Spotnick]

Must say, I find it funny when people compare kill numbers to ask for nerfs, considering you have no idea how many subscriptions there are right now in the game.. for all we know, maybe there's just 20% less people raiding now than in HFC.

And for the record.. my cross-realm OpenRaid alt run group is 9/11M and doesn't count as a guild on WowProgress.. so even if you check the amount of guilds that killed it, you completely forget about the heroic cross-realm groups that finally could access mythic content.

[Nitros14]

Must say, I find it funny when people compare kill numbers to ask for nerfs, considering you have no idea how many subscriptions there are right now in the game.. for all we know, maybe there's just 20% less people raiding now than in HFC.

And for the record.. my cross-realm OpenRaid alt run group is 9/11M and doesn't count as a guild on WowProgress.. so even if you check the amount of guilds that killed it, you completely forget about the heroic cross-realm groups that finally could access mythic content.

Wowprogress shows how many active guilds there are in a tier. 22,000 in Antorus, 26,000 in Tomb, 30,000 in Nighthold, 29,000 in Hellfire.

Cross-realm mythic I don't imagine are massively common for late bosses. And are probably composed of a lot of people who killed it already in their guilds.

[kamuimac]

You are asking other people to carry your ass for free because you rather play OW than gear your alts. Thats your problem, not anyone else's. Besides, you have admitted yourself you dont care about your performance during raid, as you prefer to slack, so a dead weight you would be

you should decide on 1 thing - either you claim how lol-easy-joke of difficulty antorus is or you admit that hc antorus is quite hard.

its nt a trick to go in there with team of 970 people and laugh how you can clear it in 75 minutes

if it was really easy people wouldnt mind 930 people going in there - but truth is that the only reason SOME people find it lol-easy is because they in there overgearing it by 40 itlv from geting boosted in mythic +15 by their mythic raiding friends

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Well, they nerfed content in every previous expansion, since at least TBC, I can't remember how it was in vanilla. Black Temple was nerfed, ICC was nerfed (30% nerfed), Dragon Soul was nerfed, Siege of Orgrimmar was nerfed, or rather we got buffed with ilvl upgrades etc. In the same way, Hellfire Citadel was nerfed, with gear upgrades + an increased legendary ring (which mattered ALOT more than the upgraded trinket we have now).

So they DO nerf content outside of brick walls. So far every end raid except Antorus.

clearly not anymore. and it would be nice if they were open about it month ago then a ton of people would simply unsub instead sitting their and praying for nerfs .

[JackWest]

you should decide on 1 thing - either you claim how lol-easy-joke of difficulty antorus is or you admit that hc antorus is quite hard.

its nt a trick to go in there with team of 970 people and laugh how you can clear it in 75 minutes

if it was really easy people wouldnt mind 930 people going in there - but truth is that the only reason SOME people find it lol-easy is because they in there overgearing it by 40 itlv from geting boosted in mythic +15 by their mythic raiding friends

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clearly not anymore. and it would be nice if they were open about it month ago then a ton of people would simply unsub instead sitting their and praying for nerfs .

You are the one who needs to stop contradicting himself. First you say that if the raid is easy, ppl should be ok bringing players with 2 raid modes lower gear. That implies gear plays no role in difficulty. Then you say that some ppl find it easy because they overgear it. This implies gear plays big role. So, what is it gonna be?

[Raelbo]

I think you fail to realize that most players simply have no interest in the matter.

Do you have a citation for that? And how much of that disinterest is not disinterest in mythic raiding so much as a disinterest in all the things associated with mythic raiding resultant from the fact that it is difficult?

If anyone who had a interest in mythic raiding would be mythic raiding.

Care to back this assertion up? I have an interest in mythic raiding but I don't do mythic raiding. Why? Because I am not prepared to put in the time, effort and commitment it would take to get myself up to the standard necessary to qualify for a guild which is good enough to be successful at it. If Mythic raiding was easy, like say, Normal, then it wouldn't require the same kind of commitment and my interest in it would turn into partipation.

Calling a 1/11 mythic guild the best players in the game is a laughable statement.

Laughing at that statement simply demonstrates that you haven't really thought about this issue.

[Deleted]

Care to back this assertion up? I have an interest in mythic raiding but I don't do mythic raiding. Why? Because I am not prepared to put in the time, effort and commitment it would take to get myself up to the standard necessary to qualify for a guild which is good enough to be successful at it. If Mythic raiding was easy, like say, Normal, then it wouldn't require the same kind of commitment and my interest in it would turn into partipation.

Clearly you do not have an interest in mythic raiding. Killing 1 boss in mythic requires little to no effort and commitment. Simple laziness or a lack of interest is why you haven't killed a mythic boss.

[Osmeric]

if it was really easy people wouldnt mind 930 people going in there - but truth is that the only reason SOME people find it lol-easy is because they in there overgearing it by 40 itlv from geting boosted in mythic +15 by their mythic raiding friends

You don't need to have mythic raiding friends to be doing a +15 each week, although it does help. I know, because I raid with people in a Heroic raiding guild, where the average illvl is about 968, and we do our weekly mythic runs. Month-after-month of H clears means the -forged gear has accumulated, which is working as intended. It also means when we carry someone on an H raid they can have huge ilvl boosts from the gear funneled their way. This is also working as intended.

A side effect of this -forged accumulation is that when I got invited as a filler to an M raid (a guild struggling with attendance needed a filler to reach 20 bodies), there wasn't much gear in it for me. I think I got one relic that was an upgrade off a bonus roll. But hey, I have some M bosses down, so I count as a mythic raider in the stats, right? I was glad to help, but it wasn't gamebreaking for me when that guild called their M raiding for the expansion a few weeks later. I mean, if they had to invite a player like me they were going to be experiencing negative progression.

[Raelbo]

I know a lot of people do not like the current WF/TF system(including myself) but thats not because the idea of it. Its because how it currently works. We've had that for 3 expansions now, but only now its so disliked and "out of hand".

There is absolutely no question that WF/TF has made a significant difference to how well geared people are at this late stage of the expansion. Is it disliked because that is actually a problem, or is it that some people are stuck in the past and have simply failed to adapt to the new paradigm? Personally I think it's the latter.

We had that in MoP and WoD and I think it worked pretty well there. Mostly, people had their "bis" gear, but you were still getting upgrades occasionaly.

This issue of "BiS" is a constant theme in any WF/TF discussion. People are unhappy because WF/TF makes it a lot harder (in fact it makes it pretty much impossible) to achieve BiS. The issue here is those people missed the point. They are getting frustrated because they are trying to achieve the impossible instead of making the realisation that BiS is not supposed to be a realisable goal.

The fact is that chasing BiS in the past was a bad system. Or in the very least somewhat flawed. The core problem with it, of course, is that it places the same objective on everyone when in reality not everyone is the same. Everyone feels compelled to play the game until they have BiS. Then when they get BiS they feel compelled to stop. The result is that a big chunk of players feel burned out because the grind for BiS continued beyond the point where they were still enjoying doing the content, while most of the rest of the players feel bored because they want to keep going but it's now kinda pointless. Only for a miniscule fraction of the playerbase does the point of reaching BiS coincide with the right time to take a break until the next tier (in much the same way as a broken clock is still right twice a day). It was a bad design because it lacked the ability to cater for the differences between players.

What WF/TF has done is to remove that fixed end-point, thus freeing up each individual player to decide when is the right time to take it easy and stop worrying about chasing gear progression. It gives us the ultimate freedom to choose our own playerstyle. The problem is that some players don't know how to do that and, I suspect, don't want to learn. They've grown used to chasing BiS because that's the way it's always been. Instead of embracing the change they fight it, because they fear the unknown. This is classic "Who moved my Cheese" stuff.

Meanwhile, it baffles me how many people right now sit on ilvl literally a difficulty above what they raid.

What baffles me is why anyone thinks this is actually a problem. It's the system working as intended. And it's a good thing

The whole point of gear progression is to ensure a reasonable rate of content progression. Being able to defeat any boss encounter is typically a function of two things things: practice and gear. The more times you attempt to beat the encounter, the better you will get, while getting more gear makes you more effective even if you aren't improving at doing the encounter. (Skill, while also a factor, shouldn't really affect your ability to progress. What it affects what difficulty you play on (N/H/M) and how quickly you progress, but >95% of guilds should be able to make steady progress regardless of their level of skill, provided they are on the appropriate difficulty level and put in a reasonable amount of effort)

In effect, gear progression serves to lower the amount of time you'll need to spend to get good enough at the encounter to beat it. Obviously at one end of the scale, there is a minimum level of gear you will need, no matter how skillful you are, in order to beat the encounter, and at the other end of the scale, at some point gear becomes so good that you no longer require any skill at all to defeat the enounter (eg you can't really fail to defeat WotLK raid bosses at ilevel 900).

What makes this system so good is that it allows the game to cater to players across the skill spectrum. Better players will clear the content quicker of course, and that is fine. What is important though is that less skillful players will still be able to progress, even if more slowly. What is important here are two things:
1) that strong players don't overgear the content when it is new because that trivialises the content, which takes away the fun.
2) that weaker players get enough gear in a reasonable amount of time to ensure that they don't get stuck on an encounter for so long that they lose heart and give up.

WF/TF really solves this problem perfectly. New raids are tuned according to the gear that people have when the raid is released. The fact that new raid gear can WF/TF simples expands the capacity of the game to continue to allow gear progression for guilds that are struggling with a boss, where, in the past, those guilds would just hit a brick wall, unable to progress because the boss is beyond their ability to defeat without better that they cannot get because they already have the best gear they can get from the bosses they can defeat.

This is why, in the past, raids would need to be nerfed. No one really liked it, but it was a necessary evil. WF/TF is just a much better system.

And the fact that, six months into a raid tier, we now have people running around in gear that, in previous expansions, you would've needed to raid mythic to get, doesn't really matter. The raid is old now.

I noticed that while recruiting for my old guild. Pretty big number of the 970+ people I was looking at, never killed single mythic boss, and when incpecting people, I notice this pattern a lot. On my server, the GM of the biggest social guild, at some point had 965 ilvl and she never stepped into hc, or mythic. Also I have legit seen a guildie get a 985 statstick trinket from world quest, which is like 880-890 baseline ilvl

Like I say, givent that Antorus the Burning Throne has been out for nearly 6 months now, I really don't see why this should be an issue.

[kamuimac]

You are the one who needs to stop contradicting himself. First you say that if the raid is easy, ppl should be ok bringing players with 2 raid modes lower gear. That implies gear plays no role in difficulty. Then you say that some ppl find it easy because they overgear it. This implies gear plays big role. So, what is it gonna be?

i wish you read what you have written and think for a second because you answeared yourself . also what 2 difficulties lower gear ? people going out of 2nd tier on hc were what 925 itlv ? and natural progress should be hc -> hc .

[Raelbo]

Clearly you do not have an interest in mythic raiding.

That really depends on what you mean by "do not have an interest", which could have several different interpretations.

Killing 1 boss in mythic requires little to no effort and commitment.

For a seasoned mythic raiding guild, no. And I'll even go so far as to say that quite a few Heroic raiding guilds with a big enough roster could likely down the first Mythic boss. But for a random group of average players with no mythic experience, killing any mythic boss would be a significant challenge that would require a significant effort and commitment to get themselves up the level of play before a kill would be feasible.

Simple laziness or a lack of interest is why you haven't killed a mythic boss.

Yeah, this comment is just asinine, and is exactly why we're having this argument. You're wrong. Probably a simple case of Dunning-Kruger effect where you are unable to recognise that what is easy for you is so because your ability is well above the average. But because you find it easy, you assume the same should be true of everyone. And even though it may be understandable that you'd be susceptible to this kind of bias, the fact that you persist in arguing along these lines even after people have taken the time and effort to spell it out for you, well that just seems like abject stubborness to me.

The simple fact is this: Mythic raiding is hard. For someone to participate in it they need to have put in a significant amount of effort into it and have the requisite level of skill at the game. And while I am sure this site is full of self-proclaimed prodigies who are just naturally gifted at being awesome at computer games, I'd bet that the reality is that they have spent thousands of hours playing computer games (and a significant portion thereof playing WoW) to get to that level.

Honestly, I'd love to be able to do Mythic raiding. But as a functional adult with responsibilities like a job and a family, I cannot seriously entertain the notion of commiting time that I should be devoting to family and work to a computer game instead, because that would be "simple laziness".

[rda]

The simple fact is this: Mythic raiding is hard.

No, it's not. It's the surrounding obstacles and the intrinsic tediousness that make mythic raiding not worth it in the general case. NOT difficulty, the difficulty is nothing to write home about if we compare to other games. There are some factors specific to WoW, but so what, it's nothing important.

Let me say it bluntly. You have this view of mythic raiding being hard because you didn't do it much. Period. When you are not undergeared, when you are on your 20th try of the same boss (not talking here about the world race with different parameters), and when your group is the same, it's not really hard. It's mostly just tedious. Going through the ropes.

[JackWest]

i wish you read what you have written and think for a second because you answeared yourself . also what 2 difficulties lower gear ? people going out of 2nd tier on hc were what 925 itlv ? and natural progress should be hc -> hc .

First, I ask you, because your two statements are complete opposites.
Second, "2 difficulties lower gear" is 930 into a hc. I have a charater with 927 ilvl. Wanna know his gear? 2 legos, 2 items sub 900, rest relinquished gear. Thats pretty much LFR quality gear. SO, now, lets count: lfr-normal-hc. Thats 2 difficulties above. ALso, if you mean peopel going from ToS HC to Antorus, they didnt jump to HC antorus. They went through normal first

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Like I say, givent that Antorus the Burning Throne has been out for nearly 6 months now, I really don't see why this should be an issue.

Because it gives people the illusion they can do content, they have no place in. As a result, it fails miserably and they come here complaining how hard it is, and how it needs nerfing. Thats, beside wasting other peoples' time and brain cells(like the guy joining hc pug at High command then exploding 5-6 bombs when boss transitions, because having an awareness of his surroundings is beyond his level, but the higher gear he has(2 leggos, relics,pantheon, TFs) gives him the impression he can go for HC)

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What makes this system so good is that it allows the game to cater to players across the skill spectrum. Better players will clear the content quicker of course, and that is fine. What is important though is that less skillful players will still be able to progress, even if more slowly. What is important here are two things:
1) that strong players don't overgear the content when it is new because that trivialises the content, which takes away the fun.
2) that weaker players get enough gear in a reasonable amount of time to ensure that they don't get stuck on an encounter for so long that they lose heart and give up.

I think you may wanna say that to all the people who quit the game when they "got stuck" on Imonar(you can jsut look at wowprogress how many 5/11 guilds no longer raid, or had to pause progression for MONTHS)

What I am trying to say, is that uncapped TF hasnt changed how people approach the game. Just tries to convince people to re clear the same difficulty they have re cleared 50 times for a POTENTIAL upgrade-two across the raid. People who are bored of doing that, will not do it either way. Or, lets say said guild is not cleared everything. Lets say they are progressin aggra hc. Lets say the plate chest drops, with crit and haste. Only person for whom it's BiS, its the hpala. Guess what, he has the same one from normal, which is even 5 ilvls above what just dropped from HC. Amazing feeling, huh? Beat the boss, after days of progression, only to find out what dropped is below what you already have, from the lower difficulty farm run. HOWEVER, with the pre legion TF system, even if he had TF from lower difficulty, the baseline drop from HC is still upgrade

[Raelbo]

No, it's not.

Ok. Instead of saying "yes it is", let me rather say this: It actually depends on your definition of the word "hard". I elaborate further on this point below.

It's the surrounding obstacles and the intrinsic tediousness that make mythic raiding not worth it in the general case.

All of which is necessary because it's hard.

Let me say it bluntly. You have this view of mythic raiding being hard because you didn't do it much. Period. When you are not undergeared, when you are on your 20th try of the same boss (not talking here about the world race with different parameters), and when your group is the same, it's not really hard. It's mostly just tedious. Going through the ropes.

Let me say this bluntly: You have this view of mythic raiding being easy because you find it easy and you struggle to understand how another person might experience the same thing differently. It's called cognitive bias. The Dunning Kruger effect explains this nicely.

It doesn't matter that I haven't done mythic raiding. I raid heroic and the principles I am talking about are exactly the same. I find heroic raiding hard. My guild finds it hard. Not super hard of course, but we don't just saunter up to bosses and defeat them first try while watching Netflix in the background. We have to work at it, practice it, make mistakes, learn from those mistakes and improve (all the while getting better gear).

And sure, once we overgear it and have the boss on farm, of course it's "easy". But that's not what defines the ease/difficulty of the fight. Difficulty is defined by how much effort it takes to get to the point where it becomes easy.

Here's a good example: Our guild struggled the most this tier on Coven. I think we must have wiped about 30 times before we finally nailed it down. Pull after pull, people would die to small mistakes. And it wasn't the same 1 person every single time, everyone including our best players had their turn to fail, contributing to the next wipe. This is because, for us, the fight was hard. All of us have been playing this game for a long time - we're talking many years, so we have a decent amount of skill. And while it might be easy to take that level of skill and experience for granted, having a new person join the guild and raid with us who doesn't have the benefit of said experience, really highlights the massive difference.

Mythic raiding is just taking it to the next level. It's not difficult in that only a select group of people has the innate ability to, with sufficient time and effort, get there. It's difficult in that it takes that time and effort for the average player to get there.

And to be fair, based on your arguments, I think that we both agree what it takes to succeed at mythic raiding. The difference is that you're unwilling to accept that it meets the definition of the word "hard". And frankly, I couldn't care less whether you want to agree with my definition of the word "hard" as long as you understand what I mean when I say the word, because once you can do that, then you'll find that actually we do agree on what we're saying here.

[rda]

All of which is necessary because it's hard.

No. We've been over this before. This is illogical, I explained why.

Regarding the rest:

It doesn't matter that I haven't done mythic raiding. I raid heroic and the principles I am talking about are exactly the same. I find heroic raiding hard. My guild finds it hard. Not super hard of course, but we don't just saunter up to bosses and defeat them first try while watching Netflix in the background. We have to work at it, practice it, make mistakes, learn from those mistakes and improve (all the while getting better gear). And sure, once we overgear it and have the boss on farm, of course it's "easy". But that's not what defines the ease/difficulty of the fight. Difficulty is defined by how much effort it takes to get to the point where it becomes easy.

You are mixing too much into your "hard". As long as something takes time to progress, that's suddenly "hard" by your definition. But raid encounters are designed to take time to progress, that's in everything. They make bosses have multiple phases so that you cannot even see the entire fight and have to master parts of it sequentially. They make bosses require more gear the deeper you go into the raid. Etc.

This time is designed into the system. But if they give you the gear intended for boss 10 right away instead of giving it gradually over 3 months, if they remove the artificial obstacles like phases which make it hard for you to prepare for the fight, if they allow you to freely switch classes and specs for your raid composition, how hard are these encounters going to be by your measure of time? Maybe an evening each and then it's automatic.

There are other types of hard - where you know everything there is to know, you have all gear and all whatnot there is to have, and you still cannot effing do it. This is truly hard. This is the only hard that is worth being called hard.

The hard that you are talking about is the MMO kind of hard = much tamer. It's about having tons of time to prepare and endure through the social BS. So, yeah, mythic raids are "hard" in this sense of yours, but this sense of hard is pretty easy in practice. You overcome this hard by throwing yourself at a wall for a long time. (And now we come to the main point of this: ) Everyone can do it. If we give everyone plenty of free time and manage to interest them in doing these mythic raids (because why even do them? for gear? meh. for achievements? can get them easier after the rest of the game moves on and nerfs the raid. for glory? pffff), everyone will be there.

That's my point. Mythic raiding is not hard and people aren't doing mythic raids much BECAUSE OF BS around it, not because of the difficulty. And no, the BS does NOT stem from the difficulty. It stems from WoW being an MMO and Blizzard having a business plan.

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Here's a good example: Our guild struggled the most this tier on Coven. I think we must have wiped about 30 times before we finally nailed it down. Pull after pull, people would die to small mistakes. And it wasn't the same 1 person every single time, everyone including our best players had their turn to fail, contributing to the next wipe. This is because, for us, the fight was hard. All of us have been playing this game for a long time - we're talking many years, so we have a decent amount of skill. And while it might be easy to take that level of skill and experience for granted, having a new person join the guild and raid with us who doesn't have the benefit of said experience, really highlights the massive difference.

Do you not notice the artificial-ness of this type of hard???

It's right there before your eyes. One guy makes a mistake and it's game over for everyone. And everyone suddenly have to repeat it from scratch. And over time this creates many tries and these many tries create many opportunities for everyone to screw up again, producing a network effect. So what is this type of hard exactly? Is it hard as in, "I cannot lift this weight"? No, it is hard as in, "I can lift this weight and way more, but I cannot lift it in the middle of a big crowd with nobody blinking in that exact moment". "So I am going to try harder to lift again and again and sometimes I will suddenly have an issue with a hand and fail to lift and I am going to call this all hard."

[Raelbo]

Because it gives people the illusion they can do content, they have no place in.

Firstly I disagree that it leads to delusions of grandeur. If someone thinks they're a serious mythic raider now because they're able to defeat Garothi World Breaker 6 months into the raid, their delusions have nothing to do with the gear.

As for who "has a place" in doing content, that's really none of your concern. If an accumulation of gear over 6 months allows people to progress further that is a good thing, as long as they're having fun.

As a result, it fails miserably and they come here complaining how hard it is, and how it needs nerfing.

Oh really? Can't say I've really witnessed that. I mean, I am sure if you look hard enough you can probably find someone who holds that view. The vast majority of people here seem to be arguing the complete opposite. And hell, even if someone was baying for a nerf, I doubt it would be any different even if WF/TF hadn't led to these ilevels.

Thats, beside wasting other peoples' time and brain cells(like the guy joining hc pug at High command then exploding 5-6 bombs when boss transitions, because having an awareness of his surroundings is beyond his level, but the higher gear he has(2 leggos, relics,pantheon, TFs) gives him the impression he can go for HC)

Yeah, this kind of shit has been going on loooooooong before WF/TF was a thing. The fact is that many players will never allow the fact that they don't deserve the game rewards to deter them from doing whatever they can to try and get them. That's just human nature.

I think you may wanna say that to all the people who quit the game when they "got stuck" on Imonar(you can jsut look at wowprogress how many 5/11 guilds no longer raid, or had to pause progression for MONTHS)

You don't measure the effectiveness of a system by those who were doomed either way. You measure it by those for whom the situation was improved. WF/TF helps raiders at all levels (so include normal/heroic) to progress further. If a group gets to 5/11M I think it's ok to call it quits if you've found that is the level to which your guild can get. I'd be far more concerned about guilds that can't clear heroic.

What I am trying to say, is that uncapped TF hasnt changed how people approach the game. Just tries to convince people to re clear the same difficulty they have re cleared 50 times for a POTENTIAL upgrade-two across the raid. People who are bored of doing that, will not do it either way. Or, lets say said guild is not cleared everything. Lets say they are progressin aggra hc. Lets say the plate chest drops, with crit and haste. Only person for whom it's BiS, its the hpala. Guess what, he has the same one from normal, which is even 5 ilvls above what just dropped from HC. Amazing feeling, huh? Beat the boss, after days of progression, only to find out what dropped is below what you already have, from the lower difficulty farm run. HOWEVER, with the pre legion TF system, even if he had TF from lower difficulty, the baseline drop from HC is still upgrade

I think it has changed things for a lot of guilds. I still remember back during Cata, I was in a guild with a bunch of friends and we got stuck on the dragons in BoT, normal. The problem there was that 3/4 of the guild was undergeared and didn't want to admit it (to put it into perspective, back then we were doing 10 man, with 6 dps and I was doing about 40% of the damage by myself). We only defeated the boss after the nerf, and it was the very first pull after the nerf. The fact was that we actually had the fight mechanics down perfectly, but we lacked the dps to beat it, and thus we were going 8 minutes into a fight that should have been over in 5, at which point it's unsurprising that people are going to start making mistakes. Overall it was a shitty experience and unsurprisingly the guild fell apart shortly thereafter.

What I am saying is that the legion gearing system would have made a massive difference for those guys. Yes they were very casual, but that shouldn't be an impediment to having fun.

[JackWest]

Firstly I disagree that it leads to delusions of grandeur. If someone thinks they're a serious mythic raider now because they're able to defeat Garothi World Breaker 6 months into the raid, their delusions have nothing to do with the gear.

As for who "has a place" in doing content, that's really none of your concern. If an accumulation of gear over 6 months allows people to progress further that is a good thing, as long as they're having fun.



Oh really? Can't say I've really witnessed that. I mean, I am sure if you look hard enough you can probably find someone who holds that view. The vast majority of people here seem to be arguing the complete opposite. And hell, even if someone was baying for a nerf, I doubt it would be any different even if WF/TF hadn't led to these ilevels.



Yeah, this kind of shit has been going on loooooooong before WF/TF was a thing. The fact is that many players will never allow the fact that they don't deserve the game rewards to deter them from doing whatever they can to try and get them. That's just human nature.



You don't measure the effectiveness of a system by those who were doomed either way. You measure it by those for whom the situation was improved. WF/TF helps raiders at all levels (so include normal/heroic) to progress further. If a group gets to 5/11M I think it's ok to call it quits if you've found that is the level to which your guild can get. I'd be far more concerned about guilds that can't clear heroic.



I think it has changed things for a lot of guilds. I still remember back during Cata, I was in a guild with a bunch of friends and we got stuck on the dragons in BoT, normal. The problem there was that 3/4 of the guild was undergeared and didn't want to admit it (to put it into perspective, back then we were doing 10 man, with 6 dps and I was doing about 40% of the damage by myself). We only defeated the boss after the nerf, and it was the very first pull after the nerf. The fact was that we actually had the fight mechanics down perfectly, but we lacked the dps to beat it, and thus we were going 8 minutes into a fight that should have been over in 5, at which point it's unsurprising that people are going to start making mistakes. Overall it was a shitty experience and unsurprisingly the guild fell apart shortly thereafter.

What I am saying is that the legion gearing system would have made a massive difference for those guys. Yes they were very casual, but that shouldn't be an impediment to having fun.

1st bolded: I was talking about raiding in general, whether its normal or mythic, not about mythic specifically.
2nd bolded: I was in the exact same situation in SoO. I was still casual raider. Played hunter. Me and the enh sham were usually on top of the damage. We got to Garrosh normal. We were struggling to meet the dps check of killing him fast enough in the last phase before we run out of cc-s for the Mindcontrolled people. I agree that it would've helped to have more gear on some people. So we had to keep farming. Yes, if there was TF, MAYBE the people needed would've had more gear. Which is why I am all in for a capped TF system. Just not for uncapped one.

[Deleted]

everything is hard if you do not put in any time to try and learn it - thats why most people think mythic is hard.
if you actually want to start mythicraiding and you prepare yourself and shape up you would realize why many people say its easy.

keeping a football up is insanely easy too - does not mean everyone who never spent a single second learning it can do it.

mythicraiding is effort,mostly.

[Battlebeard]

Point is in earlier expansions the last content is tuned around a certain ilvl number and there's no option to go higher. -(for antorus this number is around 960~ but you can go way higher easily.)
With tf loot being capped at 985 that is a huge passive nerf to the raid and when you combine this with the insanely easy raid that is antorus + aggramar/argusnerfs then that is close to the same.

Even if antorus gets cut by 50% randoms wont invite your 930 alts.

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Raids right now are not really tuned to titanforging either. (en was this overrun due to blizz underestimating m+'s impact on gear not tf itself.)

Why not? I did like all the previous expansions end raids with "undergeared" characters. My hunter even did Mythic Garrosh with like normal mode gear in MoP. They nerfed him THAT hard, and why not? It was few weeks left and it was an excellent way to try out some mythic mechanics (even if nerfed) for my alts.

[Deleted]

Why not? I did like all the previous expansions end raids with "undergeared" characters. My hunter even did Mythic Garrosh with like normal mode gear in MoP. They nerfed him THAT hard, and why not? It was few weeks left and it was an excellent way to try out some mythic mechanics (even if nerfed) for my alts.

You will have that again with a few weeks left - just not right now : )

[Battlebeard]

The stats from those items in addition to the other WF/TF stuff does add up quite a lot. Why do you try to find excuses so hard? You are way overgeared, that is a fact. Your entire raid is overgeared. Pantheontrinkets providing a buff quite often is another nerf. Artifactlevel above 75 is a buff. I could even add netherlight crucible. All these things add up so hard and no, Antorus was not tuned for ilvl 975 with 3 new relictraits and artifactlevel 80+. People like you can not see things interacting together and with all this stuff that is above what is required for raiding right now you have your nerf and this nerf is getting stronger each weak. Sorry, but now i have to get somewhat agressive. If you fail so hard to see the obvious things that buff your character way above what is needed i understand why you fail at the easiest raid mechanics. You simply can not see them. Sorry, but that is that. If the only wa you realise a nerf is a flat percentage nerf/buff as an icon above your character than i can see why you so desperately need that. And btw: No one gives a fuck about alts when the discussion is about mythic raiding and the percentage of players clearing? Come on dude, no ones alt is relevant to any dicussion around that topic. My alts are around 945 because i do not play them that often but once i link my heroic argus i get an invite. Everytime as long as my role is needed. You not getting invites might be a problem on your side.

Well, yes, the raid gets easier and easier, true. You overgear it by miles and with all the things you mention, the raid kind of gets nerfed in that sense. But like I said earlier, I don't care for my main, I don't need anything in there anymore. I am talking about my alts. I want to try the raid on Heroic with them.

I have 2 choices, either gear up my alts OR they could nerf the raid. Thats the ONLY two ways I could experience heroic on my alts. And I don't have the time to gear my alts, I simply don't. And I am NOT alone with this. Just imagine how many people who get their alts to like 920ilvl, with those 910ilvl gear your get from farming the currency on Argus etc. Lots of people would love to try to raid on those characters but can't due to ilvl, and don't want to or simply can't gear them further.

I don't see any harm in nerfin the raid to the grounds at this point. It's like 2 months left of the expansion, so why not nerf it so that more people can experience it? Why can't Blizzard give us with a heavy IRL a break and nerf so that we can try our alts we don't have time to gear up. By now, people are sick of the raid anyway, lets overnerf it, for fun!